Is your faith your own? - Is "the Faith" prescribed by a human institution?

[GodsGrace]

It is obvious to me that Jesus was deconstructing the law as he went. It began with the forerunner.
For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. - Matthew 11:13
Until John? Then what?
In Matthew chapter five Jesus treats the law as hearsay. "You have heard that it was said... But I tell you..." (5x)

When Jesus said: YOU HAVE HEARD IT SAID....
He was treating the law as heresy?

My good man.
You need to go back and begin studying Christianity FROM THE VERY FIRST LESSON.

I honor your choice to debate/discuss, or not.
However, this is a highly debatable subject, no attempt should be made to quash debate/discussion.

I understand that some take their position on this personally and know enough to back away before things get ugly.

[

I take nothing personally.
It's just that I dislike debating whether or not water is wet.
This is NOT a debatable subject.
Of course, you DO keep changing it around a bit.

Aurevoir

 

[GodsGrace]

The law was our guardian UNTIL Jesus came. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the law (guardian).
Why would Jesus promote the law that was put aside to make room for faith?

Galatians 3:23-25 NIV
Before the coming of this faith,[a] we were held in custody under the law,
locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed.
24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

[

Oh. I see.
You're changing the topic again.

Time for my milk and cookies.

 

[St. SteVen]

Who said it was introduced before the Exodus?

Do you even read my posts?

Good question, thanks. Here's what you wrote:
Did I misunderstand you?

The Sabbath was given by God at Mt. Sinai because the Israelites were enslaved for almost 400 years and had forgotten was civilized life was like.

They forgot about what REST is.

Not correct.
The Sabbath was given in Exodus 16 with the Manna collection week.
If that Israelites had forgotten due to 400 years of slavery, what were they remembering that was before that time?

[

 

[St. SteVen]

When Jesus said: YOU HAVE HEARD IT SAID....
He was treating the law as heresy?

My good man.
You need to go back and begin studying Christianity FROM THE VERY FIRST LESSON.

LOL

Yes, as hearsay. He did not say,"The law declares that...", he said, "You have heard that it was said..."
And then he proceeds to deconstruct the law by continuing to say, "But I tell you..."

Matthew 5:21
“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago,
‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’

Matthew 5:27
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’

Matthew 5:33
“Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago,
‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’

Matthew 5:38
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’

Matthew 5:43
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’

[

 

[Taken]

Is your faith your own? - Is "the Faith" prescribed by a human institution?

Is your faith your own? -

Yes, gifted to me from the Lord God, for me to have, to possess, to keep, to disgard.

Is "the Faith" prescribed by a human institution?

Faith is a Gift from God, for those willing to receive His Gift Offering.

“Human institutions”…. May or May not “agree and ascribe” to the Lord Gods Offering “AS” that institutions “MISSION” to stand for and promote.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[St. SteVen]

This is NOT a debatable subject.

Are familiar with Acts chapter fifteen? The Jerusalem Council.

Acts 15:5-6 NIV
Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said,
“The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”
6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question.

[

 

[GodsGrace]

Good question, thanks. Here's what you wrote:
Did I misunderstand you?

Not correct.
The Sabbath was given in Exodus 16 with the Manna collection week.
If that Israelites had forgotten due to 400 years of slavery, what were they remembering that was before that time?

[

Steven....
WHERE WAS MT. SINAI?
WHERE DID THE EXODUS TAKE PLACE?
WHERE DID THE ISRAELITES WANDER FOR 40 YEARS?

Why do you think God gave the 10 Commandments to Moses?

And why does the topic of this thead keep getting changed?

 

[GodsGrace]

Are familiar with Acts chapter fifteen? The Jerusalem Council.

Acts 15:5-6 NIV
Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said,
“The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”
6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question.

[

Oh for goodness sake!
I'm outta here.

 

[St. SteVen]

And why does the topic of this thead keep getting changed?

We are at page 18 of the topic. We've pretty well covered the OP title question. Now we can have some fun discussing whatever we like.

Besides, I'm not it has changed that many times. We talked about faith/the faith, now we are talking about the law. That's only two things.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

I'm outta here.

Post #348

Time for my milk and cookies.

Post #342

Aurevoir

Post #341

Bye.

Post #338

Anyway,
Nuff of this for me.

Post #335

And with that, I leave you to your very own private interpretation of scripture.
No need to reply.

Post #313

Nothing more to add.

Post #312

It's just really silly to debate this.
So I won't.

Post #300

Yeah. Fun time.

Post #299

And with that, I bid you a fondue.
A yummy one.

Post #294



[

 

[GodsGrace]

Post #348

Post #342

Post #341

Post #338

Post #335

Post #313

Post #312

Post #300

Post #299

Post #294

View attachment 49488

[

LOL
Women!



Trying again!
But I might still come back...

 

[Wick Stick]

Where did Jesus preach the Ten Commandments?

The Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5) is often viewed as Jesus' commentary on Moses' Law. Two of the commandments are specifically mentioned...

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you...
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you...

In both cases, He makes the commandment more strict, rather than getting rid of it.

 

[Wick Stick]

Like you said; the Sabbath thing always comes up.
Jesus was not know as a Sabbath-keeper. On the contrary.

John 9:16 NIV
Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.”
But others asked, “How can a sinner perform such signs?” So they were divided.

John 5:18 NIV
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath,
but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Jesus kept the Sabbath... just not in the way the Pharisees prescribed. They had fully legalized it... giving the Jews a quota on the number of steps they were allowed to take on Sabbath, for example. Did you know there was a group of Essenes who forbid pooping on Sabbath?

To this Jesus said

Mark 2:27 The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath

Jesus kept the Sabbath as a day of resting and leisure, which seems to be what Moses originally intended.

 

[St. SteVen]

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Jesus explained what he meant after his resurrection.
It was in reference to the BOOKS of the Law and/or the BOOKS of the Prophets. Not the laws themselves. IMHO

Luke 24:44 NIV
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you:
Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22 But I say unto you...
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28 But I say unto you...

In both cases, He makes the commandment more strict, rather than getting rid of it.

I think he was replacing "the law" with Christ's law.

John 1:17 NIV
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Jesus kept the Sabbath... just not in the way the Pharisees prescribed.

There complaints were not from their prescription.
- No work on the Sabbath was from the law.
- No collecting and preparing food was from the law.

In the OT, a man was stoned to death for collecting firewood.

To this Jesus said

Mark 2:27 The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath

That means the needs of humankind supersede the requirements of Sabbath.

Jesus kept the Sabbath as a day of resting and leisure, which seems to be what Moses originally intended.

There is no evidence of that.

[

 

[Wick Stick]

It was in reference to the BOOKS of the Law and/or the BOOKS of the Prophets. Not the laws themselves. IMHO

Putting a difference between the BOOKS and their CONTENTS seems like an unnecessary distinction to me. Why insert extra complexity? The simplest reading is usually the best.

Luke 24:44 NIV
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you:
Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

I think he was replacing "the law" with Christ's law.

John 1:17 NIV
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

If we look at the Greek, it's pretty clear to me. Can I get you to take a look at that word "destroy" in Greek?

Strong's Concordance:
καταλύω katalýō, kat-al-oo'-o; from G2596 and G3089; to loosen down (disintegrate), i.e. (by implication) to demolish (literally or figuratively); specially (compare G2646) to halt for the night:—destroy, dissolve, be guest, lodge, come to nought, overthrow, throw down.

As touching the Law, two opposite words - binding and loosing - are used uniformly throughout the Bible to indicate when a law is instituted (binding) or abolished (loosing). Some examples:

Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Matt 18)
For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. (Romans 7)

In Matthew 5, Jesus literally says that He is not "loosing" the people from the Law (or prophets). The word He's used here has to do with whether statutes still apply to people. They are still bound to obey the Law - the Lord has not loosened the binding.

I should probably stop here, but I've already got the concordance open, so... more Greek (audible groaning heard in background):

"Fulfil" (πληρόω - plēroō) means "to add the missing part." Our word "plural" comes from it. If I were to re-write the verse in plain modern English it looks like this...

Matt 5:17 Don't think that I've come to release you from The Law, or The Prophets. I haven't come to abolish, but to ADD.

Something I find interesting about this... it's a claim to authority. Jesus is claiming equal status to Moses, essentially saying, I can give Law and it's binding. And if I read the verses that come afterwards, that's also what I find there... Jesus brings up several Laws (you have heard it said) and ADDS to them (but I say to you).

Sorry for long post.

 

[Wick Stick]

There complaints were not from their prescription.
- No work on the Sabbath was from the law.
- No collecting and preparing food was from the law.

In the OT, a man was stoned to death for collecting firewood.

Yes, and that man's intent was to violate the law. The same was not true for Jesus and the disciples - they didn't go out looking to put in a day's work harvesting grain.

Mark 2:27 The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath
That means the needs of humankind supersede the requirements of Sabbath.

I think it means that God created the Sabbath as a worker's right. It prohibits working your employees or slaves (to death?) with a 7-day work-week.

The needs of humankind may supercede the requirements of Sabbath, but the Law already provides for that situation elsewhere, holding blameless a man who pulls an ox out of the ditch. For thousands of years, rabbis have taken that passage and created an overarching principle from it - that upholding a positive commandment ("do this") takes precedence over upholding a negative commandment ("don't do this"). Where Jesus makes reference to this, he was referring to an already-established tenet of observing the Law. In other words... He lawyered the lawyers.

There is no evidence of that.

Isn't it in the passage referenced above? Jesus and His disciples were on a leisurely stroll through a field on the Sabbath. They didn't show up in their workboots with scythes and bailing wire.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
It was in reference to the BOOKS of the Law and/or the BOOKS of the Prophets. Not the laws themselves. IMHO

Putting a difference between the BOOKS and their CONTENTS seems like an unnecessary distinction to me. Why insert extra complexity? The simplest reading is usually the best.

Most readers use Matthew 5:17 to claim that Jesus didn't come to abolish/destroy the law. (small l)
They stop short of the full statement and its significance. It doesn't say "the law." (full stop)
It says the Law or the Prophets. (capital L and P) Meaning the books,
or more importantly the prophecies about Christ in those books.
How do you abolish/destroy a prophet anyway?

And this is much clearer in Luke when Jesus makes reference to what he said previously.

Luke 24:44 NIV
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you:
Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

[

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus explained what he meant after his resurrection.
It was in reference to the BOOKS of the Law and/or the BOOKS of the Prophets. Not the laws themselves. IMHO

Luke 24:44 NIV
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you:
Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”


I think he was replacing "the law" with Christ's law.

John 1:17 NIV
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

[

I'm back!!

I think you're getting THE LAW mixed up with the law.
The law, the 10 commandments, will always be in force.
THE LAW,,,,the 613 rules/regulations/commandments is no longer in force.

 

[GodsGrace]

Putting a difference between the BOOKS and their CONTENTS seems like an unnecessary distinction to me. Why insert extra complexity? The simplest reading is usually the best.


If we look at the Greek, it's pretty clear to me. Can I get you to take a look at that word "destroy" in Greek?



As touching the Law, two opposite words - binding and loosing - are used uniformly throughout the Bible to indicate when a law is instituted (binding) or abolished (loosing). Some examples:

Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Matt 18)
For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. (Romans 7)

In Matthew 5, Jesus literally says that He is not "loosing" the people from the Law (or prophets). The word He's used here has to do with whether statutes still apply to people. They are still bound to obey the Law - the Lord has not loosened the binding.

I should probably stop here, but I've already got the concordance open, so... more Greek (audible groaning heard in background):

"Fulfil" (πληρόω - plēroō) means "to add the missing part." Our word "plural" comes from it. If I were to re-write the verse in plain modern English it looks like this...

Matt 5:17 Don't think that I've come to release you from The Law, or The Prophets. I haven't come to abolish, but to ADD.

Something I find interesting about this... it's a claim to authority. Jesus is claiming equal status to Moses, essentially saying, I can give Law and it's binding. And if I read the verses that come afterwards, that's also what I find there... Jesus brings up several Laws (you have heard it said) and ADDS to them (but I say to you).

Sorry for long post.

Right on all counts.
Right on what YOU HAVE HEARD IT SAID means....
It means there's a change coming.

Jesus had the authority to change whatever He wanted to...
HE WROTE THE LAW....I mean the 10 commandments.

Also, yes, to fulfill means to make complete.