Is your faith your own? - Is "the Faith" prescribed by a human institution?

[Stumpmaster]

The metaphors are speaking of God's called and chosen people.

Hardly

 

[Stumpmaster]

It's an interesting question.
Could we say that God created Lucifer?
And that God created the opportunity for Lucifer to rebel?

God is both sovereign and omniscient.
Where does ultimate responsibility belong?

Isaiah 14:12 NKJV
“How you are fallen from heaven,
O [a]Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!

1 Chronicles 21:1 NKJV
Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to [a]number Israel.

[

Yes,

The technical term for the study of why evil exists is theodicy. Theodicy explores how and why evil exists in a world governed by an all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good God¹³. This field addresses the philosophical and theological challenges posed by the existence of evil and suffering.

Source: Conversation with Copilot, 17/08/2024
(1) Problem of evil - Wikipedia. Problem of evil - Wikipedia.
(2) Theology Of Evil: Definition, Viewpoints, Why It Matters - Just Disciple. Theology Of Evil: Definition, Viewpoints, Why It Matters.
(3) Does evil exist? Neuroscientists say no. - Slate Magazine. Does Evil Exist? Neuroscientists Say No..
(4) Why Does Evil Exist in the World? | Charles E. Binkley - Justia. Why Does Evil Exist in the World?.
(5) Theodicy: Understanding the Problem of Evil - Springer. https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1057/9781137308801_1.pdf.
(6) Theodicy: An Overview - Dallas Baptist University. https://www.dbu.edu/mitchell/_documents/theodicy-overview-010.pdf.

 

[Beebster]

Speaking about an actual snake.

Good grief, I feel like I'm having a discussion with a tree stump.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Good grief, I feel like I'm having a discussion with a tree stump.

What else? Go on, spiritualise something.

 

[Brakelite]

It's an interesting question.
Could we say that God created Lucifer?
And that God created the opportunity for Lucifer to rebel?

God is both sovereign and omniscient.
Where does ultimate responsibility belong?

Isaiah 14:12 NKJV
“How you are fallen from heaven,
O [a]Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!

1 Chronicles 21:1 NKJV
Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to [a]number Israel.

[

God certainly created Lucifer, knowing that eventually he would rebel. Yet that rebellion wasn't inevitable, God placing Lucifer in an exalted position right next to His throne as one of 2 covering cherubs. He could have skipped creating Lucifer, and no-one would have known. Lucifer had every opportunity to rightly understand the true character of God, and not think that there was cause for rebellion. In other words, God gave Lucifer every opportunity to do the right thing, and make an informed consentual choice to refuse sin.

Eve's picking of the fruit from the forbidden tree wasn't part of God's plan

And yet you said...

It is already part of His great plan for mankind.

Therefore it was God's planthat man would sin...

Do you also think that God could not see the nature of the creatures He created and how they were programmed

Programmed to sin and rebel against their Creator?

No matter what a creature think or do, they will not be able to escape the will of God.

So man is therefore incapable of resisting temptation because he's not programmed to do so?

What Eve overrode was not God's will but God's commandment.

So it was God's will that Eve sin, but God have a commandment that was contrary to His own will?

 

[ThePuffyBlob]

God certainly created Lucifer, knowing that eventually he would rebel. Yet that rebellion wasn't inevitable, God placing Lucifer in an exalted position right next to His throne as one of 2 covering cherubs. He could have skipped creating Lucifer, and no-one would have known. Lucifer had every opportunity to rightly understand the true character of God, and not think that there was cause for rebellion. In other words, God gave Lucifer every opportunity to do the right thing, and make an informed consentual choice to refuse sin.

And yet you said...

Therefore it was God's planthat man would sin...

Programmed to sin and rebel against their Creator?

So man is therefore incapable of resisting temptation because he's not programmed to do so?

So it was God's will that Eve sin, but God have a commandment that was contrary to His own will?

Or maybe they are right, and it is I who am blinded and cannot see clearly right now. My conscience tells me that it is better to be humble rather than to insist on something. It is better to just listen, as it is unfruitful to argue with anyone about God's word, but it is more fruitful to listen and learn.

 

[GodsGrace]

Or maybe they are right, and it is I who am blinded and cannot see clearly right now. My conscience tells me that it is better to be humble rather than to insist on something. It is better to just listen, as it is unfruitful to argue with anyone about God's word, but it is more fruitful to listen and learn.

How do you know which member to believe?

 

[face2face]

God certainly created Lucifer, knowing that eventually he would rebel. Yet that rebellion wasn't inevitable, God placing Lucifer in an exalted position right next to His throne as one of 2 covering cherubs. He could have skipped creating Lucifer, and no-one would have known. Lucifer had every opportunity to rightly understand the true character of God, and not think that there was cause for rebellion. In other words, God gave Lucifer every opportunity to do the right thing, and make an informed consentual choice to refuse sin.

Divine nature cannot sin! it beholds the face of the Father (Matt 18:10). This is elementary teaching of the Lord’s and every single passage in the Word of God which is talking to Divine Natured Angels only reveals they do His Will.

Those passages you twist to force these notions are misinterpreted and misrepresented.

I think someone with your abilities and skill ought to be able to do a study on angels to draw to this conclusion

I have, which is why I am able to express these truths.

F2F

 

[GodsGrace]

Evil is not a created entity. It is a response of a created being contrary to God's command. And yes, it is by the free will of the created creature from which the disobedience derives and produces evil.

God created everything.
But a good God would not create evil.
But it exists.

So where did evil come from?

How did disobedience get into the creature?

 

[GodsGrace]

God certainly created Lucifer, knowing that eventually he would rebel. Yet that rebellion wasn't inevitable, God placing Lucifer in an exalted position right next to His throne as one of 2 covering cherubs. He could have skipped creating Lucifer, and no-one would have known. Lucifer had every opportunity to rightly understand the true character of God, and not think that there was cause for rebellion. In other words, God gave Lucifer every opportunity to do the right thing, and make an informed consentual choice to refuse sin.

And yet you said...

Therefore it was God's planthat man would sin...

Programmed to sin and rebel against their Creator?

So man is therefore incapable of resisting temptation because he's not programmed to do so?

So it was God's will that Eve sin, but God have a commandment that was contrary to His own will?

Did God KNOW lucifer would fall
Or
Did He CAUSE him to fall?

I think you mean the first.

 

[face2face]

God created everything.
But a good God would not create evil.
But it exists.

So where did evil come from?

How did disobedience get into the creature?

God create beings subject to free will - a choice.

Where there is a choice other than God's Will there is the presence of evil.

"Not my will (evil) but yours (good) be done"

F2F

 

[face2face]

Did God KNOW lucifer would fall
Or
Did He CAUSE him to fall?

I think you mean the first.

There is not such being as Lucifer - it was a symbolic title given to the King of Babylon in Isaiah 14. The rest of the taunt applies to the King also. You have been sold a lie!

 

[GodsGrace]

God create beings subject to free will - a choice.

Where there is a choice other than God's Will there is the presence of evil.

"Not my will (evil) but yours (good) be done"

F2F

Right.
God gave us free will to choose.

But the choice is between good and evil.

This does not explain how evil got into the creation.

This happens to be Christianity's problem.
Theodicy. The problem of evil.

 

[GodsGrace]

There is not such being as Lucifer - it was a symbolic title given to the King of Babylon in Isaiah 14. The rest of the taunt applies to the King also. You have been sold a lie!

Call him satan.
Call him the devil.

Are you saying the devil doesn't exist?

 

[JBO]

God created everything.
But a good God would not create evil.
But it exists.

So where did evil come from?

How did disobedience get into the creature?

God created the creature with the ability to choose whether or not to obey.

 

[Johann]

This is a follow-up to my topic titled:

Faith vs. "the Faith" - Which one was once delivered?

- What's the difference between faith and "the Faith"? - What faith was once delivered/entrusted to us? - Was it faith, or "the Faith"? - Is faith from God? - Is "the Faith" man-made? Jude 3 KJV Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me...

www.christianityboard.com

Are you saved by faith, or by "the Faith"? Let's discuss both sides.

Are we saved by certainty, or by faith? - the mystery of salvation

Faith is not required to believe a certainty. How much energy do we expend attempting to promote salvation as a certainty? All the reams of apologetics to make the mystery of faith appear to be a certainty. Were we saved by grace through certainty, or saved by grace through faith? ]

www.christianityboard.com

Discussion questions;
1) Is the basis for your salvation a personal decision to follow God, or to follow the church?
2) If your salvation is in "the Faith", who prescribed what that means?

[

When it comes to salvation, there's a difference between being saved by "faith" and being saved by "the Faith." Let me break it down using the Greek scriptures.

Saved by Faith:
When we talk about being saved by "faith," the Greek word here is πίστις (pistis). This refers to personal trust or belief in Jesus Christ. It's about having confidence in Him as your Savior. So, when you put your trust in Christ and what He did on the cross, you're saved through that faith. A good example is in Ephesians 2:8-9, where Paul says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith." This shows that salvation is a gift from God that we receive by trusting in Jesus—it's not something we can earn on our own.

Saved by "The Faith":
On the other hand, when we talk about being saved by "the Faith," we're referring to ἡ πίστις (hē pistis) in Greek. This doesn't just mean personal belief; it means the entire body of Christian teaching and doctrine. It's like the foundation of what Christians believe—the core truths passed down from the apostles. Jude 1:3 talks about this when it urges believers to "contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints." Here, "the Faith" means the essential teachings of Christianity that we hold on to and defend.

Putting It Together:
So, when you think about salvation, it's really about both. You’re saved by personal faith—your trust in Jesus—but that faith is grounded in "the Faith," the solid truth of Christian doctrine. One is about your personal relationship with Christ, and the other is about the truth you're standing on. Both are key to living out your Christian faith.

 

[GodsGrace]

God created the creature with the ability to choose whether or not to obey.

Are you aware that evil is also found in nature?
Can nature choose to obey God?

The answer to theodicy by turning to the possible answer of free will is naiive.

The truth is:
Christianity does not supply an answer to the problem of evil.

 

[Johann]

Christianity does not supply an answer to the problem of evil.

Your statement @GodsGrace that "Christianity does not supply an answer to the problem of evil" is not entirely accurate. While the problem of evil is a complex and deeply challenging issue, Christianity does offer answers—though these answers may not fully satisfy every philosophical or emotional concern. Let’s explore this in more detail.

Understanding the Problem of Evil:
The problem of evil generally refers to the question of how a good and all-powerful God can allow evil and suffering to exist in the world. This problem is often divided into two types:

The Logical Problem of Evil: Argues that the existence of an all-good, all-powerful God is logically incompatible with the existence of evil.
The Evidential Problem of Evil: Suggests that the amount and kinds of evil in the world make it improbable that an all-good, all-powerful God exists.
Christian Responses to the Problem of Evil:
Free Will Defense:

One of the most common Christian responses is the free will defense. It argues that God gave humans free will, and the existence of evil is a result of humans exercising this free will in ways that are contrary to God's good intentions. This defense suggests that genuine love and moral goodness require free will, and thus, the potential for evil is a necessary consequence of this freedom.
Key Scripture: Genesis 2-3, the story of Adam and Eve, illustrates how free will led to the Fall, introducing sin and suffering into the world.
Soul-Making Theodicy:

Another explanation is the soul-making or soul-building theodicy, which posits that God allows evil and suffering as a means of developing human virtues like courage, compassion, and perseverance. Through facing and overcoming evil, individuals grow spiritually and morally.
Key Scripture: Romans 5:3-4, which says, "suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope."
Eschatological Hope:

Christianity also looks forward to a future where evil and suffering are ultimately defeated. This is often referred to as the eschatological solution, where God will bring justice, wipe away every tear, and create a new heaven and new earth where evil no longer exists.
Key Scripture: Revelation 21:4, which speaks of a time when "God will wipe away every tear... there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain."
The Cross and Suffering:

A uniquely Christian perspective on evil is found in the cross of Christ. Christianity teaches that God, in the person of Jesus, entered into human suffering and took on the full weight of evil and sin. The crucifixion of Jesus demonstrates that God is not distant from our suffering but intimately involved in it. The resurrection offers the promise of victory over evil and death.
Key Scripture: Isaiah 53:3-5 describes the suffering servant who bears the pain and sins of humanity.
Limitations and Ongoing Questions:
While Christianity provides these responses, it's important to recognize that they do not remove all the emotional weight of the problem of evil. The existence of seemingly gratuitous suffering, particularly in cases like natural disasters or innocent suffering, remains deeply troubling for many believers and skeptics alike. However, Christianity does offer a framework for understanding and coping with evil, emphasizing trust in God's ultimate justice, love, and the hope of redemption.


Christianity does supply answers to the problem of evil, though these answers may not fully resolve the issue for everyone. The answers include the importance of free will, the potential for spiritual growth through suffering, the future promise of a world without evil, and the understanding that God shares in our suffering through the person of Jesus Christ. While these responses may not eliminate all doubt or emotional struggle, they provide a coherent and hope-filled perspective for believers facing the reality of evil in the world.

 

[St. SteVen]

God certainly created Lucifer, knowing that eventually he would rebel. Yet that rebellion wasn't inevitable, God placing Lucifer in an exalted position right next to His throne as one of 2 covering cherubs. He could have skipped creating Lucifer, and no-one would have known. Lucifer had every opportunity to rightly understand the true character of God, and not think that there was cause for rebellion. In other words, God gave Lucifer every opportunity to do the right thing, and make an informed consentual choice to refuse sin.

I was reminded of the saying: Familiarity breeds contempt.

Lucifer was close enough to God to think he could do as well, or better himself.
It seems he campaigned that message to gather a third of the angels to follow him.
They were all tossed out. (as the story goes)

Makes you wonder if that throne is still open, or if Lucifer was replaced?

Return of the prodigal angel - The Triumph of Grace

An interesting discussion was occurring in the Reader Poll - Where did the Bible come from? topic. This may be the most detailed view on the subject of Christian Universalism that I have posted to date. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ God the Father went further than that. While...

www.christianityboard.com

[

 

[GodsGrace]

Your statement @GodsGrace that "Christianity does not supply an answer to the problem of evil" is not entirely accurate. While the problem of evil is a complex and deeply challenging issue, Christianity does offer answers—though these answers may not fully satisfy every philosophical or emotional concern. Let’s explore this in more detail.

Understanding the Problem of Evil:
The problem of evil generally refers to the question of how a good and all-powerful God can allow evil and suffering to exist in the world. This problem is often divided into two types:

The Logical Problem of Evil: Argues that the existence of an all-good, all-powerful God is logically incompatible with the existence of evil.
The Evidential Problem of Evil: Suggests that the amount and kinds of evil in the world make it improbable that an all-good, all-powerful God exists.
Christian Responses to the Problem of Evil:
Free Will Defense:

One of the most common Christian responses is the free will defense. It argues that God gave humans free will, and the existence of evil is a result of humans exercising this free will in ways that are contrary to God's good intentions. This defense suggests that genuine love and moral goodness require free will, and thus, the potential for evil is a necessary consequence of this freedom.
Key Scripture: Genesis 2-3, the story of Adam and Eve, illustrates how free will led to the Fall, introducing sin and suffering into the world.
Soul-Making Theodicy:

Another explanation is the soul-making or soul-building theodicy, which posits that God allows evil and suffering as a means of developing human virtues like courage, compassion, and perseverance. Through facing and overcoming evil, individuals grow spiritually and morally.
Key Scripture: Romans 5:3-4, which says, "suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope."
Eschatological Hope:

Christianity also looks forward to a future where evil and suffering are ultimately defeated. This is often referred to as the eschatological solution, where God will bring justice, wipe away every tear, and create a new heaven and new earth where evil no longer exists.
Key Scripture: Revelation 21:4, which speaks of a time when "God will wipe away every tear... there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain."
The Cross and Suffering:

A uniquely Christian perspective on evil is found in the cross of Christ. Christianity teaches that God, in the person of Jesus, entered into human suffering and took on the full weight of evil and sin. The crucifixion of Jesus demonstrates that God is not distant from our suffering but intimately involved in it. The resurrection offers the promise of victory over evil and death.
Key Scripture: Isaiah 53:3-5 describes the suffering servant who bears the pain and sins of humanity.
Limitations and Ongoing Questions:
While Christianity provides these responses, it's important to recognize that they do not remove all the emotional weight of the problem of evil. The existence of seemingly gratuitous suffering, particularly in cases like natural disasters or innocent suffering, remains deeply troubling for many believers and skeptics alike. However, Christianity does offer a framework for understanding and coping with evil, emphasizing trust in God's ultimate justice, love, and the hope of redemption.


Christianity does supply answers to the problem of evil, though these answers may not fully resolve the issue for everyone. The answers include the importance of free will, the potential for spiritual growth through suffering, the future promise of a world without evil, and the understanding that God shares in our suffering through the person of Jesus Christ. While these responses may not eliminate all doubt or emotional struggle, they provide a coherent and hope-filled perspective for believers facing the reality of evil in the world.

The above explains evil....
but it does not explain from WHENCE IT BEGAN.

It explains the problem very well....which we all know.

But it gives no explanation as to its beginning.

Since God created everything, it would SEEM that evil also had to be created by God.
This is the Calvinist belief, BTW. But Calvinism is also not correct or biblical or, indeed, God would necessriy have to be both
good and evil, and this would not be representative of the biblical God that has revealed Himself to us.

We must admit....that there is no explanation for evil.