Is the Judgment Seat of Christ separate from the Great White Throne Judgment?

[Spiritual Israelite]

That interpretation would only be valid if verse 13 did not start with the word "And".

It doesn't start with the word "And" in some translations, but I don't see how that proves anything, anyway.

 

[dremnant]

Your interpretation of this makes no sense. Because of your doctrinal bias you have to deny that a time period post that of the 2nd coming is required in order to fulfill this.

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

This is what we are focusing on here---I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Now compare that with the following in Isaiah 60.

Isaiah 60:14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.


How can verse 14 not be what Jesus was meaning in Revelation 3:9? Isaiah 60:14 says---and all they that despised thee. How can that not also be true of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie, that they despised the 'thee' meant in Isaiah 60:14 the fact Jesus said, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee? The 'thee' obviously meaning the same 'thee' meant in Isaiah 60:14.

Where do you see anywhere in Isaiah 60 that it gives the impression that the judgment seat of Christ is in view, that it is involving what Romans 14:10-12 is involving?

We also have to keep in mind, in Revelation 3:9 Jesus is the speaker, therefore, the 'thy' and the 'thee' meant, obviously can't be meaning Him. Per Romans 14:10-12 though, they are bowing to Christ Himself. Per Revelation 3:9 no one is bowing to Christ since Christ is going to make these bow to someone or something else. But let's just ignore details like this and have it meaning Romans 14:10-12, regardless. Where it then renders Revelation 3:9 nonsensical since Jesus is the speaker, therefore, He would not be using pronouns such as 'thy' and 'thee' if He was referring to Himself.

I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Imagine this meaning this instead---I will make them to come and worship before my feet, and to know that I have loved me--utterly rendering this part nonsensical---and to know that I have loved me---what is that supposed to mean, that Jesus says of Himself, to know that I have loved me? LOL what absurd things doctrinal bias' can cause one to do to the texts involved, as if it is a better idea to render the text nonsensical rather than trying to make sense out of the text instead. But since most ppl are too prideful to ever admit their interpretation has been debunked, when it has clearly been debunked, I might as well be talking to a wall then.

You are either making a straw man argument or you didn't pay attention to my post...

The only timeline where the members of the Synagogue of Satan can have no other choice but to worship the Christians (without the Christians committing blasphemy) would be on the Judgment Day (Revelation 20:11-15). This is because that is the time when the haters of Christ shall bow and worship Him...

All of us clearly understood Christ was telling the members of the church in Philadelphia... that He will make the members of the synagogue of Satan to worship at their feet, and that Christ loves those members of the church.

Have you considered the reality that both of those church members and the members of the synagogue of Satan are no longer alive today?

When do you think those members of the synagogue of Satan will be resurrected to make them worship Christ and worship the members of the Philadelphia church, other than on the Judgment Day (Revelation 20:11-15)?

 

[dremnant]

It doesn't start with the word "And" in some translations, but I don't see how that proves anything, anyway.

The "And" at the beginning of the sentence makes it a separate resurrection event.

This is the reason why KJV is my primary English translation. You don't lose the exact meaning of the texts.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your interpretation of this makes no sense. Because of your doctrinal bias you have to deny that a time period post that of the 2nd coming is required in order to fulfill this.

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

This is what we are focusing on here---I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Now compare that with the following in Isaiah 60.

Isaiah 60:14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.


How can verse 14 not be what Jesus was meaning in Revelation 3:9? Isaiah 60:14 says---and all they that despised thee. How can that not also be true of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie, that they despised the 'thee' meant in Isaiah 60:14 the fact Jesus said, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee? The 'thee' obviously meaning the same 'thee' meant in Isaiah 60:14.

Where do you see anywhere in Isaiah 60 that it gives the impression that the judgment seat of Christ is in view, that it is involving what Romans 14:10-12 is involving?

We also have to keep in mind, in Revelation 3:9 Jesus is the speaker, therefore, the 'thy' and the 'thee' meant, obviously can't be meaning Him. Per Romans 14:10-12 though, they are bowing to Christ Himself. Per Revelation 3:9 no one is bowing to Christ since Christ is going to make these bow to someone or something else.

There's something that, for some unknown reason, that you haven't considered here. Jesus would NEVER tell anyone to worship anyone but Himself or God the Father. What in the world are you even thinking by believing something like that? Yet, that's what you are saying about Revelation 3:9. Why in the world would God (Jesus is God, of course) tell anyone to worship anyone else but Himself? Have you never heard about the commandment where God says no other gods before Me? He would never want anyone to worship anyone but Him. That's complete nonsense for you to think otherwise! You are basically saying you think Jesus will tell people to commit blasphemy by worshiping someone other than God. And you think that's a strong argument?

What Revelation 3:9 is about is that while believers are standing before Him at the judgment, unbelievers will be there bowing before Him and confessing that He is Lord while at the feet of those who are standing before Him. At the same time it will be a case of them acknowledging that the ones who they persecuted during their earthly lifetimes were right all along about Jesus and they were wrong.

But let's just ignore details like this and have it meaning Romans 14:10-12, regardless. Where it then renders Revelation 3:9 nonsensical since Jesus is the speaker, therefore, He would not be using pronouns such as 'thy' and 'thee' if He was referring to Himself.

I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Imagine this meaning this instead---I will make them to come and worship before my feet, and to know that I have loved me--utterly rendering this part nonsensical---and to know that I have loved me---what is that supposed to mean, that Jesus says of Himself, to know that I have loved me? LOL what absurd things doctrinal bias' can cause one to do to the texts involved, as if it is a better idea to render the text nonsensical rather than trying to make sense out of the text instead. But since most ppl are too prideful to ever admit their interpretation has been debunked, when it has clearly been debunked, I might as well be talking to a wall then.

You are being prideful acting as if you have debunked anything here, which you have not even come close to doing. Only in your own biased, carnal mind.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The "And" at the beginning of the sentence makes it a separate resurrection event.

This is the reason why KJV is my primary English translation. You don't lose the exact meaning of the texts.

The Bible wasn't written in English. But, believe what you want.

If the dead in verse 12 are not from the sea, death or hell (Hades), then where are they from?

 

[dremnant]

The Bible wasn't written in English. But, believe what you want.

If the dead in verse 12 are not from the sea, death or hell (Hades), then where are they from?

That's where "the books" mentioned in verse 12 comes in to play. It's not about where they were taken from.... it's about the jurisdiction of the books.

Also, the original Greek text had the word "καί" at the corresponding beginning of verse 13.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That's where "the books" mentioned in verse 12 comes in to play. It's not about where they were taken from.... it's about the jurisdiction of the books.

Also, the original Greek text had the word "καί" at the corresponding beginning of verse 13.

Why are you dodging my question? You are claiming that the dead in verse 12 are different than the dead in verse 13, so tell me what evidence you have that the dead in verse 12 come from somewhere besides the sea, death or hell (Hades). Where else can the dead come from? Nowhere. You're not recognizing that verse 13 is simply adding more detail about the dead who were mentioned in verse 12.

 

[dremnant]

Why are you dodging my question? You are claiming that the dead in verse 12 are different than the dead in verse 13, so tell me what evidence you have that the dead in verse 12 come from somewhere besides the sea, death or hell (Hades). Where else can the dead come from? Nowhere. You're not recognizing that verse 13 is simply adding more detail about the dead who were mentioned in verse 12.

I'm not dodging your question... I'm showing you why they'll get resurrected ahead of those in verse 13. They basically came from similar places... the difference is the knowledge of the books.

 

[AngelicArcher]

Both believers and unbelievers will appear before the judgment seat of Christ.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

The way we can confirm that this is talking about both believers and unbelievers is by looking at the Old Testament prophecy that Paul referenced in verse 11. Which is this....

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

Notice here that even those "that are incensed against him" and "shall be ashamed" will be bowing their knees to the Lord. So, this shows that when Paul references this passage from Isaiah, he is showing that all believers and all unbelievers will stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account of themselves.

Also, in Matthew 25:31-46 it clearly portrays both believers and unbelievers standing before Christ to be judged as well.

Yes,my post made note of that. Believers and unbelievers are to be judged.
This happens before different thrones of judgement. As scripture tells us.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes,my post made note of that. Believers and unbelievers are to be judged.

At the same time, according to Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46. Agree?

This happens before different thrones of judgement. As scripture tells us.

What do you mean by this exactly?

 

[Brakelite]

Many bible teachers are claiming the believers will be facing the Judgment Seat of Christ, while the unbelievers will be facing the Great White Throne judgment. It is also being taught that these judgments shall take place separately. Does the scriptures support that teaching? Let's see what the Bible says...

John 5:22 (KJV)
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son

Matthew 16:27 (KJV)
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Revelation 22:12 (KJV)
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Matthew 7:22-23 (KJV)
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I hope these verses are enough for everybody to understand that Jesus Christ will be the one sitting at the Great White Throne to judge every man, including unbelievers according to their works.

So, what did our scholars missed? Simple... the judgment seat of Christ (Romans 14:10; 2 Corinthians 5:10) is the same as the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11). What John described as a great white throne, Paul simply called it the judgment seat of Christ.

You won't find other books in the Bible where an author other than Paul mentioned the judgment seat of Christ. And you won't find a verse where Paul mentioned a great white throne.

Hope this post helps introduce some of you to the next level of understanding the Scriptures. Just make sure to ask the Holy Spirit to give you understanding. You will be thrilled to realize how much heavenly truth we don't yet know.

I think we are missing something of we believe Jesus comes back with rewards for the faithful (and death for the unbeliever) , and then later preside over the judgement. Isn't that all back to front? Where is the justice of the good are separated from the evil, the good are translated and the evil destroyed, rewards given to the good and the evil dammed, all before any judgement is made?

 

[ewq1938]

Take another look...before "the sea gave up the dead" and before "death and hell delivered up the dead" in verse 13...there were dead people in verse 12 already standing before God and were judged based on "the books".

I believe those dead might have been the most recent to die, in the fire outside of Jerusalem. Possible that instead of sending them to hell/hades, they were simply brought to the throne before the other dead were brought there.

But all the dead in verse 13 were not judged based on the books, and are only judged according to their works. Probably the explanation to this is the text in Romans 2:12.

Only in verse 15 were those two groups judged based on what is written in the book of life.

I think they are all judged the same, just the wording makes it seem there are different ways of judging them.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Books aren't mentioned in the last verse but they were opened so the books were involved just as much as they were in the previous verse.

 

[Davidpt]

You are either making a straw man argument or you didn't pay attention to my post...

All of us clearly understood Christ was telling the members of the church in Philadelphia... that He will make the members of the synagogue of Satan to worship at their feet, and that Christ loves those members of the church.

Have you considered the reality that both of those church members and the members of the synagogue of Satan are no longer alive today?

When do you think those members of the synagogue of Satan will be resurrected to make them worship Christ and worship the members of the Philadelphia church, other than on the Judgment Day (Revelation 20:11-15)?

Except I don't interpret these 7 churches in the same manner you might. I think they are applicable all throughout the NT church era involving the past 2000 years though when He returns, not just back then. For example, one of the churches Jesus said this to it--- Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Which then means we should be comparing with Revelation 19:21 and Revelation 22:12, to name a few. Both of those verses involve His 2nd coming, a coming that never occurred in the first century nor could.

Edited: meant to say Revelation 19 not Matthew 19. Man, I make a lot of typos these days, it seems.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

op: Is The Judgment Seat Of Christ Separate from The Great White Throne Judgment?
Yes, as per God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided:

According To The Revelation Of The Mystery about Grace for All believers In the
[ Heavenly ] The Body Of Christ, At The End Of The Current Age Of Grace!:

Part 1: Judgment Seat Of Christ
Part 2: Judgment Seat Of Christ
Part 3: Judgment Seat Of Christ

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

According To God's Prophetic Program for [ earthly ] Israel and the nations and their
[ Israel in the wilderness, and sheep and goat ] Judgments, after The Millennial Kingdom,
and at the end of time, for the Unbelievers of all ages:

The Great White Throne Judgement (Revelation 20:11-15 AV)

Precious friends, Please Be Very Richly Encouraged And Edified In
The Lord Jesus Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!

Amen.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

op: Is The Judgment Seat Of Christ Separate from The Great White Throne Judgment?
Yes, as per God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided:

According To The Revelation Of The Mystery about Grace for All believers In the
[ Heavenly ] The Body Of Christ, At The End Of The Current Age Of Grace!:

Part 1: Judgment Seat Of Christ
Part 2: Judgment Seat Of Christ
Part 3: Judgment Seat Of Christ

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

According To God's Prophetic Program for [ earthly ] Israel and the nations and their
[ Israel in the wilderness, and sheep and goat ] Judgments, after The Millennial Kingdom,
and at the end of time, for the Unbelievers of all ages:

The Great White Throne Judgement (Revelation 20:11-15 AV)

Precious friends, Please Be Very Richly Encouraged And Edified In
The Lord Jesus Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!

Amen.

You don't seem to have any idea of what rightly dividing the word of truth means. Scripture does not teach multiple judgments.

There is no basis whatsoever for seeing any difference between this, which is said to happen at Christ's second coming:

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

And this:

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

You say correctly that "the unbelievers of all ages" are judged at the end of time, yet you contradict that by having some unbelievers being judged 1,000+ years before that.

The goats in Matthew 25:31-46 represent all of those from all-time whose names are not written in the book of life.

 

[dremnant]

Except I don't interpret these 7 churches in the same manner you might. I think they are applicable all throughout the NT church era involving the past 2000 years though when He returns, not just back then.

I'm not saying the words given to the 7 churches no longer applies today. But certainly the words apply to those churches...which means the church in Philadelphia shall receive the unconditional promise given to them.

My question still stands....When do you think those members of the synagogue of Satan will be resurrected to make them worship Christ and worship at the feet of the members of the Philadelphia church, other than on the Judgment Day (Revelation 20:11-15)?

 

[Davy]

I don't know which "agenda of men" you are talking about. In fact, I have yet to find another person who sees the prophetic texts with the same understanding that is given to me.

You really don't know, huh?

You said:
"I hope these verses are enough for everybody to understand that Jesus Christ will be the one sitting at the Great White Throne to judge every man, including unbelievers according to their works."

By the above you are saying that even CHRIST'S ELECT will be JUDGED at that Great White Throne Judgment, which that GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT happens ONLY AFTER Christ's "thousand years" reign with HIS ELECT SAINTS.

What you just did with YOUR statement was regurgitate men's false Amill doctrine without realizing how badly it DISAGREES WITH GOD'S WRITTEN WORD IN REV.20.

When Lord Jesus returns on the last day of this present world, that is when He will separate His sheep from the goats. His Sheep represent His elect that will reign with Him and the "rod of iron" He was promised to reign over the nations with per Psalms 2. And His elect are called the "first resurrection" in Rev.20, so they are at THAT time of Christ's coming glorified by Christ and ARE NO MORE JUDGED!

 

[dremnant]

You really don't know, huh?

You said:
"I hope these verses are enough for everybody to understand that Jesus Christ will be the one sitting at the Great White Throne to judge every man, including unbelievers according to their works."

By the above you are saying that even CHRIST'S ELECT will be JUDGED at that Great White Throne Judgment, which that GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT happens ONLY AFTER Christ's "thousand years" reign with HIS ELECT SAINTS.

What you just did with YOUR statement was regurgitate men's false Amill doctrine without realizing how badly it DISAGREES WITH GOD'S WRITTEN WORD IN REV.20.

When Lord Jesus returns on the last day of this present world, that is when He will separate His sheep from the goats. His Sheep represent His elect that will reign with Him and the "rod of iron" He was promised to reign over the nations with per Psalms 2. And His elect are called the "first resurrection" in Rev.20, so they are at THAT time of Christ's coming glorified by Christ and ARE NO MORE JUDGED!

You obviously didn't read my other posts in this thread, particularly post#14...

Let me show you what many is missing...

First resurrection (Rev 20:4-6) -- These are believers who were murdered, and shall reign with Christ for 1000 years. They are the only group who can go to the lake of fire without dying (Rev 20:6). Because of this power, they can take the devil and his minions to the lake of fire (second death) without getting hurt themselves. All believers who dies a natural death will not make it to this group.

Second resurrection (Rev 20:12) -- These group will be judged according to their works and based on what is written in the books. Those whose names are found in the book of life (Christians who were not murdered) makes it to the new heaven and new earth. Those whose names are not found in the book of life (fake Christians and those who rejected Christ) are thrown in the lake of fire.

Third resurrection (Rev 20:13) -- This group will not be judged using the books, as these are those who died without knowledge of the Gospel or the Bible...but will be judged according to their works. Those whose names are found in the book of life (aborted babies make it to this group) shall make it to the new earth. And we know what happens to those whose names are not in the book of life.

 

[Davy]

You obviously didn't read my other posts in this thread, particularly post#14...

First resurrection (Rev 20:4-6) -- These are believers who were murdered, and shall reign with Christ for 1000 years. They are the only group who can go to the lake of fire without dying (Rev 20:6). Because of this power, they can take the devil and his minions to the lake of fire (second death) without getting hurt themselves. All believers who dies a natural death will not make it to this group.

That's even more screwy than what you said before.

Not all of the saints in the last days during the coming "great tribulation" will be killed, otherwise what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4:17 about Christ's coming to gather His Church that's STILL ALIVE on earth would not happen. You do recall Rev.20 mentions those too as the "first resurrection", right? And there is NOWHERE written any such idea you have that those of the "first resurrection" will take the unsaved into the future "lake of fire". Who in the world... told you that idiotic tale?

Second resurrection (Rev 20:12) -- These group will be judged according to their works and based on what is written in the books. Those whose names are found in the book of life (Christians who were not murdered) makes it to the new heaven and new earth. Those whose names are not found in the book of life (fake Christians and those who rejected Christ) are thrown in the lake of fire.

There you go again with that false idea about "Christians who were not murdered" being those that are judged at the Great White Throne Judgment. As I said before, if the "first resurrection" is ONLY about murdered believers on Christ, then that leaves NO ONE STILL ALIVE ON EARTH when Jesus comes to gather them per 1 Thess.4:17! So your idea goes directly AGAINST the written Bible Scripture.

Third resurrection (Rev 20:13) -- This group will not be judged using the books, as these are those who died without knowledge of the Gospel or the Bible...but will be judged according to their works. Those whose names are found in the book of life (aborted babies make it to this group) shall make it to the new earth. And we know what happens to those whose names are not in the book of life.

NOT WRITTEN IN GOD'S WORD ANYWHERE. Not even suggested.

There is only ONE time of resurrection at the end of this world on the LAST DAY. But there are TWO TYPES of that one resurrection event. Jesus showed this in John 5:28-29 that on the day of His future coming, ALL... in the graves shall hear His voice, and come forth, those who did good to the "resurrection of life", and those who did evil to the "resurrection of damnation".

So instead of making up tales, you should read The Bible more, and learn to stick to what it says as written.

 

[ewq1938]

I'm not saying the words given to the 7 churches no longer applies today. But certainly the words apply to those churches...which means the church in Philadelphia shall receive the unconditional promise given to them.

My question still stands....When do you think those members of the synagogue of Satan will be resurrected to make them worship Christ and worship at the feet of the members of the Philadelphia church, other than on the Judgment Day (Revelation 20:11-15)?

I would say during the Millennium. Living, former members of the synagogue of satan. I don't believe the intent was to say ALL of them would, or even the ones alive when John penned the book.