Is the Judgment Seat of Christ separate from the Great White Throne Judgment?

[Scott Downey]

Each of these seem pretty clear to me about what they encompass. The righteous and the wicked will be separated at the end of the age.

Tell me . . . referring to Matthew 25, how is it that there will be righteous and wicked amongst the nations, to be separated, when Jesus has already just before this gathered up the elect?

Much love!

The way I see it the angels gather up the righteous and the wicked into sheep and goat, or wheat and tare groups, then they are brought together for judgment day separated into those two groups.
The judgement is very quick and certain.

If you recall the rich man in hell and Lazarus in Paradise, each side could see and talk to the other side, even though separated by a great gulf, so that one side could not cross over to the other side. They also were grouped together. It is something like that on the day of judgment.

Jesus specifically says so when all the peoples of all the nation come before the throne, he has separated them into those on His left and those on His right hand, and He is in-between both of them. And these descriptions of the judgment have a lot of dramatic flair to them.

The judgment is highly focused, in Revelation, heaven and earth flee away, and all eyes are watching

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Each of these seem pretty clear to me about what they encompass. The righteous and the wicked will be separated at the end of the age.

Yes, and what does it say happens to the righteous at that time and what happens to the wicked at that time?

Do you agree that Jesus will come again at the end of the age?

Tell me . . . referring to Matthew 25, how is it that there will be righteous and wicked amongst the nations, to be separated, when Jesus has already just before this gathered up the elect?

Very easily. Do you think it's saying everyone is gathered before Him with the wicked being mixed in with the righteous and then separated? That is not what it says.

I believe what it's saying is that everyone is gathered before His throne without anyone yet being separated to His right hand or left hand side. This does not necessitate that they are all kind of just randomly mixed together. They will already be separated at that time, but not yet to His right hand or left hand.

 

[Scott Downey]

Yes, and what does it say happens to the righteous at that time and what happens to the wicked at that time?

Do you agree that Jesus will come again at the end of the age?


Very easily. Do you think it's saying everyone is gathered before Him with the wicked being mixed in with the righteous and then separated? That is not what it says.

I believe what it's saying is that everyone is gathered before His throne without anyone yet being separated to His right hand or left hand side. This does not necessitate that they are all kind of just randomly mixed together. They will already be separated at that time, but not yet to His right hand or left hand.

yes, there is no comingling of the just and unjust at the judgment. But both are present in this huge space before the throne of God.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are way out of context here. Are you thinking that people will become exactly like angels in every respect?

Jesus was speaking in terms of marriage and procreation.

Now, here's something we can actually agree on. There is no basis for comparing us to angels beyond what the scriptures themselves do. Nowhere does it say we will be like the angels in every way. Jesus told us in what ways we will be like them and we should not try to expand what He was saying beyond that.

 

[Scott Downey]

Now, here's something we can actually agree on. There is no basis for comparing us to angels beyond what the scriptures themselves do. Nowhere does it say we will be like the angels in every way. Jesus told us in what ways we will be like them and we should not try to expand what He was saying beyond that.

yeah, we will be like them in certain ways, but we will never be them. We actually are fellow servants of God with them, but we have a different calling,

For one thing, angels do not rule on God's throne, But Christ tells us we who overcome will rule with Him on His throne.

 

[Scott Downey]

Rev 1, angels are never made kings and priests unto God
And never rule anywhere

4 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:

Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.

To Him who [b]loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us [c]kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, [d]the Beginning and the End,” says the [e]Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

 

[Scott Downey]

Rev 5 , we will reign on the earth, which will be the new earth that the saints will inherit. Not this old evil tainted earth.

6 And I looked, [c]and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

Worthy Is the Lamb​

8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made [d]us kings[e] and priests to our God;
And [f]we shall reign on the earth.”

We shall reign with Him on His throne, you know at the end the heavenly Jerusalem comes down from Heaven onto the New Earth.

Matthew 5:5
Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth.

Rev 22

And he showed me a [a]pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him.

4 They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads.

5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.

 

[marks]

Yes, and what does it say happens to the righteous at that time and what happens to the wicked at that time?

Exactly what it says. The wicked are removed to their punishment, the righteous remain in Jesus' kingdom.

I believe what it's saying is that everyone is gathered before His throne without anyone yet being separated to His right hand or left hand side. This does not necessitate that they are all kind of just randomly mixed together. They will already be separated at that time, but not yet to His right hand or left hand.

The prophecy states that Jesus will come in power and glory, and the chosen will be gathered to Him. Then He will take His throne of glory, and the nations will be gathered to Him, and everyone separated sheep and goats, according to how they treated Jesus' brothers. The sheep are the righteous who cared for their needs, and the wicked, the goats, are those who did not care for the needs of Jesus' brothers.

So after these prophecies are fulfilled, Jesus will have returned to earth and taken His throne, the chosen will be regathered, and the nations will be gathered and separated into righteous and wicked.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Exactly what it says. The wicked are removed to their punishment, the righteous remain in Jesus' kingdom.

Agree. And Jesus said this will happen when He comes at the end of the age, right?

The prophecy states that Jesus will come in power and glory, and the chosen will be gathered to Him. Then He will take His throne of glory, and the nations will be gathered to Him, and everyone separated sheep and goats, according to how they treated Jesus' brothers. The sheep are the righteous who cared for their needs, and the wicked, the goats, are those who did not care for the needs of Jesus' brothers.

Yes, and at that time the wicked will be cast into what Jesus describes as "a furnace of fire" where "there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth" (Matt 13:43,50) and as "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41). Do you not believe that is the same thing as those whose names are not written in the book of life being cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15)?

So after these prophecies are fulfilled, Jesus will have returned to earth and taken His throne, the chosen will be regathered, and the nations will be gathered and separated into righteous and wicked.

Exactly. And at that time the righteous will "shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father" (Matt 13:43) which is "the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matt 25:34) and the wicked will be cast into "a furnace of fire" where "there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth" (Matt 13:43,50) and as "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41). Agree?

 

[marks]

Agree. And Jesus said this will happen when He comes at the end of the age, right?


Yes, and at that time the wicked will be cast into what Jesus describes as "a furnace of fire" where "there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth" (Matt 13:43,50) and as "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41). Do you not believe that is the same thing as those whose names are not written in the book of life being cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15)?


Exactly. And at that time the righteous will "shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father" (Matt 13:43) which is "the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matt 25:34) and the wicked will be cast into "a furnace of fire" where "there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth" (Matt 13:43,50) and as "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41). Agree?

Keep each in it's context, that's all I can tell you.

Anyway, you and I both know we've been all over this before.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Keep each in it's context, that's all I can tell you.

Why is that all you can tell me? The context is quite clear that it's in relation to the day Jesus returns. If you disagree, then what other context can we apply to passages like Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46?

Anyway, you and I both know we've been all over this before.

Actually, I don't recall us discussing the judgment before. Not in much detail, anyway.

 

[marks]

Why is that all you can tell me? The context is quite clear that it's in relation to the day Jesus returns. If you disagree, then what other context can we apply to passages like Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46?


Actually, I don't recall us discussing the judgment before. Not in much detail, anyway.

Do you consider the sheep and goats judgment to be as described? That Jesus returns in power and glory, and gathers a group called "the chosen", then takes His throne, and gathers a group called the nations, who He separates into two groups? So that at the end there are three groups, "the chosen", the righteous from the nations, and the wicked from the nations? Is that how you see it?

Do you consider the sheep and goats judgment to be the same as the great white throne judgment?

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do you consider the sheep and goats judgment to be as described?

Yes, basically, except I would not say it's talking about literal sheep and goats.

That Jesus returns in power and glory, and gathers a group called "the chosen", then takes His throne, and gathers a group called the nations, who He separates into two groups?

No. I don't see where are they called "the chosen" and "the nations". Where are you seeing that? Instead, I see the sheep as being referred to as "the righteous' (Matt 25:46) and the goats referred to as "ye cursed" (Matt 25:41). It's quite clear to me that the sheep represent those who are saved and have their names written in the book of life and the goats represent those who are not saved and do not have their names written in the book of life.

So that at the end there are three groups, "the chosen", the righteous from the nations, and the wicked from the nations? Is that how you see it?

Of course I don't since nothing like that is described. Jesus described only two groups in passages like Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46. In one passage the two groups are described as wheat and tares. In another they are described as good fish and bad fish. And in the other they are described as sheep and goats. None of those passages even hint at a third group. Please explain where you get that idea from.

Do you consider the sheep and goats judgment to be the same as the great white throne judgment?

Of course. You know I'm an amillennialist by now, right? Amillennialists only believe in one judgment of all people, not multiple judgments.

 

[marks]

Yes, basically,

What does "basically" mean? What parts are in, and what parts are out?

No. I don't see where are they called "the chosen" and "the nations".

Matthew 24:31 KJV
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:32 KJV
And before him shall be gathered all nations : and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

The elect . . . Jesus' brothers, the rightous of the nations, and the wicked of the nations.

Of course. You know I'm an amillennialist by now, right?

Yes, I do, like I said, we've been through this before.

Joel 3 is a parallel passage to the sheep goats prophecy, naming the location in which this occurs as a place in Israel. The great white throne judgment is of the dead. The nations with the sheep and goats are gathered on the earth.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What does "basically" mean? What parts are in, and what parts are out?

Goodness sakes, you missed the joke. Everything is in and nothing is out. I was just making a little joke there by saying "basically" because it's not literal sheep and goats, but otherwise we can take it literally.

Matthew 24:31 KJV
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:32 KJV
And before him shall be gathered all nations : and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

The elect . . . Jesus' brothers, the rightous of the nations, and the wicked of the nations.

You are changing the text. There are two groups mentioned there, figuratively represented as sheep and goats. The sheep represent the elect and the goats represent the non-elect. That's it. There is no third group mentioned there.

Yes, I do, like I said, we've been through this before.

I don't recall ever discussing Matthew 25:31-46 specifically with you before.

Joel 3 is a parallel passage to the sheep goats prophecy, naming the location in which this occurs as a place in Israel. The great white throne judgment is of the dead. The nations with the sheep and goats are gathered on the earth.

You are deciding that if one passage about an event does not contain all the same details as another passage about an event then they can't both be talking about the same event, but that is not a wise way of interpreting scripture.

How can this:

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Be any different than this:

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Do you not think the goats are those whose names are not found written in the book of life? Where does scripture teach that those whose names are not written in the book of life will be cast into the fire on more than one occasion?

 

[dremnant]

...what other context can we apply to passages like Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46?

Those passages are addressed by this...

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Be any different than this:

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Do you not think the goats are those whose names are not found written in the book of life?

There is only One Judgment Day...though it is split into 2 categories:
1) Judgement of those who are within the jurisdiction of the books (Revelation 20:12)
2) Judgement of those outside the jurisdiction of the books (Revelation 20:13)

The first group are judged based on their works, what is written in the books, and whether their names are in the book of life. The second group are judged based on their works, and whether their names are in the book of life.

The surprised reactions of the "sheep" and the "goats" to the judgments they shall receive indicates they both belong to the 2nd group above. The "sheep" are the ones whose names are found in the book of life.

I know there is a teaching that all the dead that shall stand before the white throne judgment will be thrown in the lake of fire. But there would be no reason to use the book of life as basis of judgment if all of them would not be found in the book of life.

Notice what it says in Revelation 20:15 (KJV):
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

It did not say...
And none of them was found written in the book of life...

 

[Scott Downey]

John 5
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Since believers are already possessing eternal life and won't come into-under judgment, they cannot logically be liable to the second death.
That is what Christ is emphatically teaching. The judgment they do come under is one for rewards or the lack of rewards, but their eternal life will never be taken from them by any kind or aspect or part of the Day of Judgment. Not so with unbelievers.

And we know unbelievers do not possess eternal life as Jesus is way truth life, and they don't know Him, Christ does not know them, and they do not obey the gospel.

Scripture in the NT church teaching by the apostles say the unbelieving will be punished with everlasting destruction and separation away from God and Christ when He returns. This is why, the teaching to the church is clear in the church letters, while Revelations is a vision and not figurative, so it must not be relied upon for doctrine.

2 Thess 1 is written so as to not be figurative, and meaning is clear. Any trying to figure out what Revelation means must agree with what is taught by the Spirit here.
2 Thess 1

1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy,

To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

God’s Final Judgment and Glory​

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and [a]tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest[b] evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with [c]tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [d]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

*********************************

And the above also heartily agrees with the sound words of Jesus Christ written in many places regarding who has eternal life and who does not.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There is only One Judgment Day...though it is split into 2 categories:
1) Judgement of those who are within the jurisdiction of the books (Revelation 20:12)
2) Judgement of those outside the jurisdiction of the books (Revelation 20:13)

The first group are judged based on their works, what is written in the books, and whether their names are in the book of life. The second group are judged based on their works, and whether their names are in the book of life.

I see no basis for the distinctions you are making here. All who are mentioned in verses 12 and 13 are judged within the jurisdiction of the books based on their works.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

The surprised reactions of the "sheep" and the "goats" to the judgments they shall receive indicates they both belong to the 2nd group above.

Revelation 20:12 and 13 does not refer to two groups. It just refers to the dead in general. We know from Matthew 25:31-46 that there will be two groups there, but Revelation 20 doesn't specify that like Matthew 25:31-46 does.

The "sheep" are the ones whose names are found in the book of life.

Of course.

I know there is a teaching that all the dead that shall stand before the white throne judgment will be thrown in the lake of fire. But there would be no reason to use the book of life as basis of judgment if all of them would not be found in the book of life.

Notice what it says in Revelation 20:15 (KJV):
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

It did not say...
And none of them was found written in the book of life...

Yes, I would agree with that. Matthew 25:31-46 makes it very clear that both the saved and the lost will be there, so I'm certainly not arguing against that. I think the main takeaway here is that we agree that Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 20:11-15 refer to the same judgment.

 

[AngelicArcher]

The Bema Seat,the judgement seat of Christ,is where believers are judged for their example and work for the kingdom and are then rewarded.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what we have done whether good or bad (2 Corinthians 5:10)

Sins aren't an issue for us there because we have already been redeemed and forgiven.

Revelation 20, the great white throne of judgement is where sinners,the unrepentant, unredeemed,are judged before being cast into the lake of fire.

And then later death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire and all that ceases to exist forever.
Revelation 21:4 "He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or sorrow or crying or pain. All these things are gone forever.”

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Bema Seat,the judgement seat of Christ,is where believers are judged for their example and work for the kingdom and are then rewarded.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what we have done whether good or bad (2 Corinthians 5:10)

Sins aren't an issue for us there because we have already been redeemed and forgiven.

Revelation 20, the great white throne of judgement is where sinners,the unrepentant, unredeemed,are judged before being cast into the lake of fire.

And then later death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire and all that ceases to exist forever.
Revelation 21:4 "He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or sorrow or crying or pain. All these things are gone forever.”

Both believers and unbelievers will appear before the judgment seat of Christ.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

The way we can confirm that this is talking about both believers and unbelievers is by looking at the Old Testament prophecy that Paul referenced in verse 11. Which is this....

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

Notice here that even those "that are incensed against him" and "shall be ashamed" will be bowing their knees to the Lord. So, this shows that when Paul references this passage from Isaiah, he is showing that all believers and all unbelievers will stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account of themselves.

Also, in Matthew 25:31-46 it clearly portrays both believers and unbelievers standing before Christ to be judged as well.