Is the Holy Spirit needed to believe initially?

[1stCenturyLady]

a gift.. or a talent?

PICJAG

Same difference. They come from the Father

 

[101G]

Same difference. They come from the Father

THANK YOU.

PICJAG.

 

[Heart2Soul]

This is flesh faith. The same as you have in deciding whether or not to buy a car. It has no power to save.

People buy advertised products by faith who are not saved. But only Holy Spirit faith saves. Those who do not have the Holy Spirit are not saved. No matter how fervent their faith in their ideas about Christ.

you just don't get it.

 

[Dave L]

you just don't get it.

you just don't get it.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22) (KJV 1900)
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,” (Galatians 5:22) (NET)

One must have a tree before fruit can grow. The same is true of genuine believers in Christ. You cannot believe with the sinful flesh, only in the Holy Spirit.

 

[Jeff Wiebe]

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22) (KJV 1900)
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,” (Galatians 5:22) (NET)

One must have a tree before fruit can grow. The same is true of genuine believers in Christ. You cannot believe with the sinful flesh, only in the Holy Spirit.

I'm sinful and I believe, I also have faith. With faith comes trust. I also have trust. Before I believed I had nothing. Believing came first.

 

[APAK]

I'm sinful and I believe, I also have faith. With faith comes trust. I also have trust. Before I believed I had nothing. Believing came first.

Jeff, and hello. I have a couple of questions of you.

Did you believe in what while sinful or are still sinful? Did you gain your 'saving' faith on your own steam or by the Holy Spirit?

Thanks,

APAK

 

[Jeff Wiebe]

Jeff, and hello. I have a couple of questions of you.

Did you believe in what while sinful or are still sinful? Did you gain your 'saving' faith on your own steam or by the Holy Spirit?

Thanks,

APAK

I am, was and always be a sinner. My saving faith came from questioning Gods existence, not entirely from scripture. When I realized in my heart he is real and believed he died for me my life changed. From that moment till now all I want to do is know him.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

APAK,

[The context and timing of the scripture you have her is in pre-grace period, under the Law
This is false. There is always law and there is always grace all through the bible;
gen6;
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

[These believers were credited with faith of their own will]

No, salvation is by or through faith, never because of faith.

[ as was Moses and Abraham and many others until the Son of God was glorified and immortalized.]

All saints from all time were regenerated by the Spirit.
[Then under the grace of God, he provided this spirit]

The Spirit of God is a person, not a commodity provided. from the 1689 cof.
3._____ In this divine and infinite Being there are three subsistences, the Father, the Word or Son, and Holy Spirit, of one substance, power, and eternity, each having the whole divine essence, yet the essence undivided: the Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son; all infinite, without beginning, therefore but one God, who is not to be divided in nature and being, but distinguished by several peculiar relative properties and personal relations; which doctrine of the Trinity is the foundation of all our communion with God, and comfortable dependence on him.
( 1 John 5:7; Matthew 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Exodus 3:14; John 14:11; 1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:14,18; John 15:26; Galatians 4:6 )

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Here are two verses in the gospel of John that seem to contradict one another. The first is one Calvinists use to advocate only their elect are chosen irresistibly, and the other shows all men being drawn.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

No contradiction at all if properly understood.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

You cannot receive the Holy Spirit without belief, so yes you have to believe first, and that has nothing to do with the sinners prayer or baptism. He is given by God when He knows you believe, and that might even be before you know you do.

using this reasoning, Lazarus had to resurrect himself before he heard Jesus and came out of the tomb

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

"Hidden In Him,
[He is constantly drawing all men but not all are receptive.]

there is no biblical evidence for this at all. How is God drawing all men constantly?

God has given witness to all that he exists, and yet without the gospel being preached they will not be saved.

 

[Mjh29]

"Hidden In Him,
[He is constantly drawing all men but not all are receptive.]

there is no biblical evidence for this at all. How is God drawing all men constantly?

God has given witness to all that he exists, and yet without the gospel being preached they will not be saved.

just saying, every one of your posts makes me feel like this ;) ;) ;)

 

[APAK]

I am, was and always be a sinner. My saving faith came from questioning Gods existence, not entirely from scripture. When I realized in my heart he is real and believed he died for me my life changed. From that moment till now all I want to do is know him.

Thanks for the reply....I just want to align myself and my previous experiences with you and your second sentence. I did not really questioned God's existence, although I tried to fit him in and catalogue him in my mind. In fact it was one day in March 1974 when I suddenly thought about God very seriously once more, and how infinite and powerful he was and is in this world. I even tried to show that his power and presence never reach a mathematical asymptote. He was endless in power and presence. The real point that I'm trying to make here is that I wager you and I both experienced the Holy Spirit turning our minds and hearts to him FIRST, because of his action and not initially caused from our own carnal mind per se. This I believe led to a special 'saving' faith from God that would convince (we made a decision willingly) us Jesus is real and caused repentance to baptism and thus conversion with the indwelling of the spirit that gave us a new life. Yes indeed, you and I realized and felt in our hearts that Jesus is real and really died for you and me....Amen

Bless you,

APAK

 

[Hidden In Him]

"Hidden In Him,
[He is constantly drawing all men but not all are receptive.]

there is no biblical evidence for this at all. How is God drawing all men constantly?

God has given witness to all that he exists, and yet without the gospel being preached they will not be saved.

I was giving interpretation of the verse I quoted in the post. Give me your interpretation.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

just saying, every one of your posts makes me feel like this ;) ;) ;)
View attachment 5392

There is a deposit of faith once delivered to the saints. When we see Kindred spirits posting truth we rejoice;
14 Ye have said, It is vain to serve God: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the Lordof hosts?

15 And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered.

16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.

17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

In time several will come to the same truths as the scripture presented to their minds is melted into new hearts by the Spirit of God.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

I was giving interpretation of the verse I quoted in the post. Give me your interpretation.

Jesus was teaching of the indwelling and sealing of the Spirit that would take place at Pentecost and all through the Nt.age.
Ot. saints would be transitioned into the New Covenant.

 

[Jeff Wiebe]

Thanks for the reply....I just want to align myself and my previous experiences with you and your second sentence. I did not really questioned God's existence, although I tried to fit him in and catalogue him in my mind. In fact it was one day in March 1974 when I suddenly thought about God very seriously once more, and how infinite and powerful he was and is in this world. I even tried to show that his power and presence never reach a mathematical asymptote. He was endless in power and presence. The real point that I'm trying to make here is that I wager you and I both experienced the Holy Spirit turning our minds and hearts to him FIRST, because of his action and not initially caused from our own carnal mind per se. This I believe led to a special 'saving' faith from God that would convince (we made a decision willingly) us Jesus is real and caused repentance to baptism and thus conversion with the indwelling of the spirit that gave us a new life. Yes indeed, you and I realized and felt in our hearts that Jesus is real and really died for you and me....Amen

Bless you,

APAK

I think God is here for everyone but we must come to him and acknowledge him before we can receive his spirit. For me it happened in an instant. I have no doubt he had some influence in my decision to believe, but it was my decision. Some choose not to, doesn't mean he hasn't tried. I don't believe god chooses who believes and who doesn't. That's up to us.

 

[APAK]

APAK,

[The context and timing of the scripture you have her is in pre-grace period, under the Law
This is false. There is always law and there is always grace all through the bible;
gen6;
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

[These believers were credited with faith of their own will]

No, salvation is by or through faith, never because of faith.

[ as was Moses and Abraham and many others until the Son of God was glorified and immortalized.]

All saints from all time were regenerated by the Spirit.
[Then under the grace of God, he provided this spirit]

The Spirit of God is a person, not a commodity provided. from the 1689 cof.
3._____ In this divine and infinite Being there are three subsistences, the Father, the Word or Son, and Holy Spirit, of one substance, power, and eternity, each having the whole divine essence, yet the essence undivided: the Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son; all infinite, without beginning, therefore but one God, who is not to be divided in nature and being, but distinguished by several peculiar relative properties and personal relations; which doctrine of the Trinity is the foundation of all our communion with God, and comfortable dependence on him.
( 1 John 5:7; Matthew 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Exodus 3:14; John 14:11; 1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:14,18; John 15:26; Galatians 4:6 )

Well I do not agree with you that the Law applies to those under grace, period. I suspect your definition of grace is quite different from mine. Yes there is grace in both the OT and NT although not all forms of God's grace were present throughout. There was one form of grace for salvation in the OT and another form in the NT. They are really different.

I agree with you on next part.....that they were credited with salvation through their faith by their own will....that's what I did say and mean although not in your words. That was one of my major points. I think you are quibbling here over nothing.

The next part: what do you mean that all saints were regenerated, I guess you meant under the Law, right? I would like to see your scripture on this point.

And the last part I definitely disagree with. so you think the Holy Spirt is a 'person,' really. Can you provide scripture on this one as well. The Holy spirit is not a commodity. I sense you are trying to reinforce again your non-scriptural beliefs.

Thanks anyway,

APAK

 

[Hidden In Him]

Jesus was teaching of the indwelling and sealing of the Spirit that would take place at Pentecost and all through the Nt.age.
Ot. saints would be transitioned into the New Covenant.

Anthony, not the verse above my post, the verse in my post. Jesus was not teaching in Acts 17:26-27, Paul was. Try again. What is your interpretation of Acts 17:26-27.

 

[APAK]

I think God is here for everyone but we must come to him and acknowledge him before we can receive his spirit. For me it happened in an instant. I have no doubt he had some influence in my decision to believe, but it was my decision. Some choose not to, doesn't mean he hasn't tried. I don't believe god chooses who believes and who doesn't. That's up to us.

Ok, I believe I could never make the gospel and Jesus real until the Spirit of God first knocked on my heart's door first. My carnal mind and sinful heart could never provide the spiritual purity and holiness to perform this miracle of personal salvation.

Bless you,

APAK