Is the first resurrection physical or spiritual?

[Stewardofthemystery]

That is why I suggested Numbers 5 is key to Romans 7. It does make sense to me. revealing what exactly God has prepared unto: freedom from sin unto death. Romans 8:18-21 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. [19] For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. [20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope, [21] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
-that is good news. “Of Him who has subjected the same in Hope”

Where just as Numbers 5 and Romans 7 reveals …through the body of Christ, the Work prepared of God …it’s by that foundation which God laid that no other man can lay, take away or add to …by the body of Jesus Christ —God—has redeems us from the curse.

^exactly. That is Great News yes? “If thou have NOT gone with another instead of your husband, be free from this bitter water that causes the curse.” “But if her husband be dead…she is free from that law….” Though she be married “joined another” she is no adulteress! —-I do think it connects to those married are made one flesh…but those joined to Christ are made One Spirit. There is a significant difference I think. Two becoming one flesh …divorce, adultery, all kinds of trouble comes from this union. Go ask a therapist and this joining of two made one flesh comes with two bring loads of baggage to that union. BUT Joined to Christ and made One Spirit…made of His heavenly flesh (there are different kinds of flesh), joined in One Spirit…removes the baggage for if any be in Christ “He is a New Creature”

What law is she dead too?

There is a lot of confusion concerning Romans 7, not from you, but from others who do not understand what the law of sin and death really is, it’s not Gods law as some suppose. Here is a thread I wrote about it…

The Romans 7 confusion, the law of God is not sin.

I have come across a grave error in my internet travels, and that error is in thinking that the law of God is a curse, and is sin. The law of God is also the words of God; and so I would ask, is God's words also sin and death? Of course not! And for one to equate God's words of Life as sin...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[Wick Stick]

As the passage says, the centurion and those with him "saw the earthquake, and those things that were done". IOW the things they witnessed on the very day that Christ was crucified, which caused them great fear saying, "Truly this man was the Son of God." But the verse says "came out of the graves AFTER His resurrection." Christ did not resurrect from the grave until three days later. How could they have witnessed saints physically coming out of the graves after Jesus' resurrection three days later, since according to the text they were "watching Jesus"?

Matthew 27:53-54 (KJV) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Mark 15:39 (KJV) And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.

Just... read the chapter honestly. The point of it is to witness the literal, physical death and resurrection of Jesus.

Your idea requires that the author just decided to stop doing that for 2 or 3 verses right in mid-chapter... and suddenly shift to talking about a heavenly realm... without announcing the shift in setting... but then shift right back to his former purpose... That seems a bit unlikely to me.

 

[rwb]

Just... read the chapter honestly.

Excuse me?

 

[RedFan]

It appears you don't believe what is written because there is no PHYSICAL evidence to prove a literal physical resurrection! The account according to Matthew is NOT a mistake, but neither is the account to be understood in a physical sense.

I cannot agree with your interpretation. Matt. 27: 51-53 says

"51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

 

[TribulationSigns]

 

[rwb]

I cannot agree with your interpretation. Matt. 27: 51-53 says

"51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

I've already addressed how they can only be a spiritual body, and how the holy city is not the physical city, Jerusalem of this earth. If you're interested you can go back and follow the on-going discussion, because I will not be repeating myself again.

What I would like to comment on is the Bible translation you're using that adds "people" to verse 53. Notice below that I've posted every reliable translation from my Bible program, and none of them add the word "people" as your translation has. Since I am very confident that the translations below are correct, I must assume the translation you're using has a bias to prove. The reason "people" does not belong in the verse is because the spiritual body of saints that arose from the graves appeared to the heavenly hosts that are not of flesh and blood but are spirit beings called the "angels of God."

Matthew 26:53 (KJV) Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Luke 2:13-14 (KJV) And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

Matthew 27:51-53 (KJV) And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Matthew 27:53 (ASV) and coming forth out of the tombs after his resurrection they entered into the holy city and appeared unto many.

Matthew 27:53 (Bish) And went out of the graues, after his resurrection, and came into the holy citie, and appeared vnto many.

Matthew 27:53 (DBY) and going out of the tombs after his arising, entered into the holy city and appeared unto many.

Matthew 27:53 (GB) And came out of the graues after his resurrection, and went into the holy citie, and appeared vnto many.

Matthew 27:53 (KJ2000) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Matthew 27:53 (Tyn) and came out of ye graves after his resurreccion and came into the holy cite and appered vnto many.

Matthew 27:53 (WEB) and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many.

Matthew 27:53 (Wyc) And thei yeden out of her birielis, and aftir his resurreccioun thei camen in to the holi citee, and apperiden to many.

Matthew 27:53 (YLT) and having come forth out of the tombs after his rising, they went into the holy city, and appeared to many.

 

[RedFan]

I've already addressed how they can only be a spiritual body, and how the holy city is not the physical city, Jerusalem of this earth. If you're interested you can go back and follow the on-going discussion, because I will not be repeating myself again.

What I would like to comment on is the Bible translation you're using that adds "people" to verse 53. Notice below that I've posted every reliable translation from my Bible program, and none of them add the word "people" as your translation has. Since I am very confident that the translations below are correct, I must assume the translation you're using has a bias to prove. The reason "people" does not belong in the verse is because the spiritual body of saints that arose from the graves appeared to the heavenly hosts that are not of flesh and blood but are spirit beings called the "angels of God."

Matthew 26:53 (KJV) Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Luke 2:13-14 (KJV) And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

Matthew 27:51-53 (KJV) And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Matthew 27:53 (ASV) and coming forth out of the tombs after his resurrection they entered into the holy city and appeared unto many.

Matthew 27:53 (Bish) And went out of the graues, after his resurrection, and came into the holy citie, and appeared vnto many.

Matthew 27:53 (DBY) and going out of the tombs after his arising, entered into the holy city and appeared unto many.

Matthew 27:53 (GB) And came out of the graues after his resurrection, and went into the holy citie, and appeared vnto many.

Matthew 27:53 (KJ2000) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Matthew 27:53 (Tyn) and came out of ye graves after his resurreccion and came into the holy cite and appered vnto many.

Matthew 27:53 (WEB) and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many.

Matthew 27:53 (Wyc) And thei yeden out of her birielis, and aftir his resurreccioun thei camen in to the holi citee, and apperiden to many.

Matthew 27:53 (YLT) and having come forth out of the tombs after his rising, they went into the holy city, and appeared to many.

I agree that "People" doesn't belong in v. 53. I just picked the NIV at random because it was the first to pop up when I googled the verses. Let's go with the NRSV, which is the study bible I usually use:

"51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. The earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53 After his resurrection they came out of the tombs and entered the holy city and appeared to many."

Notice that the Greek word translated "bodies" in v. 52 (sōmata) is the same word undeniably used to refer to physical bodies in John 19:31, Rom. 1:24. Rom. 8:1, Rom. 12:1, 1 Cor. 6:15, Eph. 5:28, Heb.13:11. The singular form of the Greek word (sōma) also has a physical body connotation -- and is used dozens of times in the NT to reference a physical body. Even Mathew uses it when referring to an undeniably physical body in Matt. 5:29, 5:30, 10:28, 27:58, 27:59.

Why, given all this, do you think that Matt. 27:52 used the word to reference spiritual bodies instead of physical ones?

 

[rwb]

I agree that "People" doesn't belong in v. 53. I just picked the NIV at random because it was the first to pop up when I googled the verses. Let's go with the NRSV, which is the study bible I usually use:

"51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom. The earth shook, and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53 After his resurrection they came out of the tombs and entered the holy city and appeared to many."

Notice that the Greek word translated "bodies" in v. 52 (sōmata) is the same word undeniably used to refer to physical bodies in John 19:31, Rom. 1:24. Rom. 8:1, Rom. 12:1, 1 Cor. 6:15, Eph. 5:28, Heb.13:11. The singular form of the Greek word (sōma) also has a physical body connotation -- and is used dozens of times in the NT to reference a physical body. Even Mathew uses it when referring to an undeniably physical body in Matt. 5:29, 5:30, 10:28, 27:58, 27:59.

Why, given all this, do you think that Matt. 27:52 used the word to reference spiritual bodies instead of physical ones?

I've already explained why I believe the bodies are not physical but a spiritual body of Christ ascending to heaven with Christ. I know body is defined natural/physical flesh. But the spirit within every human is part of the same body and is that part of faithful man that possesses eternal life and continues to be a living soul in heaven after our physical body is dead. That's why in Rev. 20 John saw (whether with sight or knowledge is not important) martyred souls in heaven alive after they were martyred for their faith.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; [soma] it is raised a spiritual body [soma]. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body [sōma].

Since Christ made atonement for sin, and defeated death, every human spirit returns to God in heaven alive through the Spirit of Christ in them. Unlike the man without the Holy Spirit who physically dies in unbelief. His spirit too will return to God who gave it, but that spirit is said to be in silence and darkness, without the life giving Spirit of Christ.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

It takes two parts; both flesh + spirit for mankind to be a complete living soul. But only the spirit within the flesh might continue to have life as living soul after the flesh dies, IF in life that man had been born again before they died. And mortal/corruptible flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. That's why when saints physically die only the eternal spirit, through the Holy Spirit goes to heaven, while the flesh returns to dust.

Believers actually enter into this union with Christ while we are still physically alive. But this union is not of flesh & blood, but is spiritual life. When man is born again of the Spirit of Christ we have already spiritually come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and an innumerable company of angels. In physical life we are spiritually the general assembly and church of the firstborn, written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, SPIRITS of just (justified) men made perfect.

Hebrews 12:22-23 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

When our natural/physical body dies, as spiritual body we do not cease being eternally born again through Christ's Spirit. Since Christ has resurrected from the dead, we simply transition from being a physical body (living souls) of saints on earth, to being a spiritual body (living souls) in the Kingdom of God in heaven.

 

[RedFan]

I've already explained why I believe the bodies are not physical but a spiritual body of Christ ascending to heaven with Christ. I know body is defined natural/physical flesh. But the spirit within every human is part of the same body and is that part of faithful man that possesses eternal life and continues to be a living soul in heaven after our physical body is dead. That's why in Rev. 20 John saw (whether with sight or knowledge is not important) martyred souls in heaven alive after they were martyred for their faith.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; [soma] it is raised a spiritual body [soma]. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body [sōma].

Since Christ made atonement for sin, and defeated death, every human spirit returns to God in heaven alive through the Spirit of Christ in them. Unlike the man without the Holy Spirit who physically dies in unbelief. His spirit too will return to God who gave it, but that spirit is said to be in silence and darkness, without the life giving Spirit of Christ.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

It takes two parts; both flesh + spirit for mankind to be a complete living soul. But only the spirit within the flesh might continue to have life as living soul after the flesh dies, IF in life that man had been born again before they died. And mortal/corruptible flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. That's why when saints physically die only the eternal spirit, through the Holy Spirit goes to heaven, while the flesh returns to dust.

Believers actually enter into this union with Christ while we are still physically alive. But this union is not of flesh & blood, but is spiritual life. When man is born again of the Spirit of Christ we have already spiritually come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and an innumerable company of angels. In physical life we are spiritually the general assembly and church of the firstborn, written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, SPIRITS of just (justified) men made perfect.

Hebrews 12:22-23 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

When our natural/physical body dies, as spiritual body we do not cease being eternally born again through Christ's Spirit. Since Christ has resurrected from the dead, we simply transition from being a physical body (living souls) of saints on earth, to being a spiritual body (living souls) in the Kingdom of God in heaven.

OK, but I don't read Matt. 27:51-53 that way. I just don't think your esoteric view of sōmata is what Matthew's readership would understand -- or was intended to understand.

 

[rwb]

OK, but I don't read Matt. 27:51-53 that way. I just don't think your esoteric view of sōmata is what Matthew's readership would understand -- or was intended to understand.

A spiritual body of believers in the spiritual Kingdom of God is not esoteric. But it is true that many will not receive it because most will only accept that which they can physically see.

 

[RedFan]

A spiritual body of believers in the spiritual Kingdom of God is not esoteric. But it is true that many will not receive it because most will only accept that which they can physically see.

I agree with that much. But I meant that the reading of Matt. 27:51-53 you proffer is esoteric. The natural takeaway from reading the verses is as a reference to physical bodies. When one thinks of tombs being opened, the natural image is a physical one.

 

[rwb]

I agree with that much. But I meant that the reading of Matt. 27:51-53 you proffer is esoteric. The natural takeaway from reading the verses is as a reference to physical bodies. When one thinks of tombs being opened, the natural image is a physical one.

My reading is not esoteric because I understand the spiritual Kingdom of God that Christ came to earth with. And how the things from above are only to be discerned through the Spirit of Christ in us.

1 Corinthians 2:9-11 (KJV) But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

1 Corinthians 2:12-14 (KJV) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

OK, but I don't read Matt. 27:51-53 that way. I just don't think your esoteric view of sōmata is what Matthew's readership would understand -- or was intended to understand.

Why do you read Matthew 27:51-53 at all? Didn't you say you believe it's fiction and didn't actually happen?

 

[RedFan]

Why do you read Matthew 27:51-53 at all? Didn't you say you believe it's fiction and didn't actually happen?

Yes. The discussion with @rwb, I thought, is What did the author MEAN? I think he meant that physical bodies had risen -- and I say such a thing never happened on Good Friday. If @rwb is correct that spiritual bodies was what rose from the tombs that day, then I would not deem the account fictional. (But of course, @rwb and I disagree on the meaning.)

 

[Timtofly]

Yes, that is what Premillennialists continue to argue for! The problem is they cannot give a biblical reply to HOW these martyred saints can be resurrected to immortal life BEFORE the seventh trumpet sounds??? NONE shall be resurrected, according to the Scripture, before the seventh trumpet sounds! If they are resurrected bodily they MUST die again, because NO ONE shall have immortal life before the change that shall come when the last trumpet sounds, and TIME shall be no longer!

The 7th Trumpet sounded before those beheaded were physically even beheaded.

Revelation 20 has no Trumpets sounding at the end of the chapter. The Trumpets had already sounded before Satan was even bound.

Why would a premillennial agree with an Amil that the Trumpets happen at the end of the chapter? Premil do not add that to Scripture, but Amil add things that are not written, to get their eschatology to work.

Those beheaded in Revelation 20 did not live prior to the Cross, as Amil imply. Nor were they beheaded as an ongoing phenomenon as you force into Revelation 20. Being beheaded is not a spiritual exercise during those thousand years. That is your own imagination. You claim these people are living and reigning prior to their physical death. That is not stated in Revelation 20 at all. Revelation 20 says they had been physically beheaded prior to the thousand year period and received the first resurrection (physical) so they could physically reign on earth for a thousand years, never to die again. The 7th Trumpet had already sounded at the point they were beheaded, and given a physical resurrection, the first resurrection back to a permanent incorruptible physical body. Amil deny the 7th Trumpet already sounded, because they deny Revelation 20 is talking about the Day of the Lord as a Sabbath Day being a thousand years in length. Amil deny a thousand years as literal, but indefinite covering multiple millennia or perhaps the Day of the Lord is only 24 hours to them. They are not post millennial, stating the return is after a certain point in time.

Amil assume and force a second coming into the end of Revelation 20, even though that is not explicit nor implied, as Jesus had already been on the earth for those thousand years. John does imply that those physically resurrected at the beginning are physically with Jesus on the earth. John never states these souls are spiritually with Jesus in heaven. The implication is that John is on the earth viewing things that unfold from an earthly perspective:

"And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand."

John did not say he saw an angel leave heaven and go to the earth. John was on the earth when the angel arrived from heaven. John saw those souls, without bodies, receive judgment on the earth, as thrones were set up on the earth. No thrones were set up in heaven, as they would have already existed in heaven, but not on the earth at that point.

These souls were not condemned nor received rewards. They only received the first resurrection, and amil call that the second birth. How does a spiritual birth given to them after they had been physically beheaded help them at all? Do they not have a body then for a thousand years, and then on into the NHNE? Remember, the 7th Trumpet already sounded prior to the start of Revelation 20. You may not see these as being beheaded prior to the Cross, but you don't even accept what John did write, when you say they were physically dying on earth during the thousand years.

The mark has not been given to humans until after the 7th Trumpet has sounded. The mark is both spiritual and physical. It is spiritual (of God) because God places the mark on a person, not Satan, nor any other human. It is physical, because those physically alive on the earth can see that God placed this mark, indicating that soul was no longer named in the Lamb's book of life. That is the whole point of being beheaded, to avoid having God place this mark on that soul.

"And which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

The mark is about worshipping the beast, but it is given by God, not by the beast. This is the only thing that separated these souls from other souls physically alive receiving the mark. Revelation 20 is the clear and definitive use of the term "first resurrection". You cannot take other Scripture and change what John wrote, to make it say something different. You can use this passage to define other Scriptures, as long as one does not change the first resurrection as being defined as physical, into something else that it is not, like the second birth. The second birth is not physical. The first birth, the first death, and the first resurrection, can only be physical. Some Amil have hijacked the term and inserted into their human logic to mean something else, but their "first resurrection" cannot override what John defined as the first resurrection in Revelation 20. This is not a chronological resurrection. The first resurrection can only apply to the physical body after physical death.

Amil apply a chronological order even in John 5. They say one resurrection is different from the other resurrection so they call one "a first" and the other "a second", which is merely chronological in their view. Then they interpret Revelation 20 as being a chronological order a first and a second. Neither John 5 nor Revelation 20 is implying nor explicitly pointing to a chronological order. The first resurrection would be physical for both those at the start of the thousand year period and after the thousand year period. The first resurrection can only be physical even if it happens to both groups. John did not say the first group received the first resurrection, and the second group would receive the second resurrection, thus chronological. That is an erroneous assumption by many premil and most Amil.

There is no second resurrection as ever defined as physical, compared to a first resurrection that is spiritual in Scripture. That is a human construct forced into Scripture and causing many contradictions.

 

[Timtofly]

The word “order” means rank or class, as in a military rank. So this verse is saying Christ is ranked the highest (the head) all others are rank lower than that. The verse only gives two ranks which can’t be taken as a definitive or complete list of all ranks or even all the resurrections.

Where is the resurrection of the unsaved, they are not shown in the ranking, and what about those who are alive and remain to be caught up to the Lord, what rank or class are they?

Since 1 Corinthians 15:23 does not contain a complete list of what “order” people should be placed in, the best we can say from this verse is that Christ is first, all others rank second or lower.

Where would you place the barely and wheat harvest? If 1 Corinthians 15:23 only has the fall harvest in view then can we assume the barley and wheat were harvested prior to 53-54 AD, the approximate time 1 Corinthians was written?

By rank then?

This verse would read:

"For he must reign, till all of creation has received a ranking"

This is what it says:

"For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet."

Meaning until all are made alive, even creation itself. That is an endeavor of redemption over time, not the avoidance of time, and just giving creation a rank.

The order was given: The Cross was the first time Adam's flesh was made alive. At the Second Coming is when those alive on the earth are made alive. Then later after the Day of the Lord, death itself is defeated, and creation is returned to God, alive, not a dead burnt up sacrifice as Amil suggest.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why would a premillennial agree with an Amil that the Trumpets happen at the end of the chapter? Premil do not add that to Scripture, but Amil add things that are not written, to get their eschatology to work.

It says that it's the time for the dead to be judged at the sounding of the seventh trumpet. When are the dead judged? After the thousand years. So, don't tell us that it's not written that way.

Revelation 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.” 16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: “We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. 18 The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small—and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[Timtofly]

How many times do you have to be shown that NONE shall be bodily resurrected immortal until this time symbolized a thousand years have finished?

Just once would work. But no such Scripture exists.

Revelation 20:4-6 explicitly states these received the first resurrection, a permanent incorruptible physical body prior to the millennial reign of Christ as Prince on the earth. Jesus was resurrected with a permanent incorruptible physical body. These beheaded receive that same physical, first resurrection.

The rest of the dead could not live again, until the thousand years were over, so these beheaded did live again before the thousand years even started.


Do you yourself think the rest of the dead will live again, or not? If you allow the rest of the dead to live again after the thousand years, why deny these beheaded to live again prior to the thousand years?

John 11 describes that Lazarus was called out of the grave by Jesus, showing that Jesus could call all out of the grave and give the dead eternal life. The first resurrection is a permanent incorruptible physical body. Lazarus was taken to Paradise on Sunday morning when Jesus ascended with all the OT redeemed called out of their graves when Jesus declared "It is finished" on the Cross. Lazarus was resurrected a few weeks earlier as an example of what would happen at the Cross. Lazarus had been dead 4 days, longer than even Jesus was dead, in the grave.

At the Cross, the dead OT in Christ, did leave their graves and entered Jerusalem. 3 days later on Sunday morning they all ascended physically with Jesus, just like at the Second Coming, those on earth will be changed and ascend physically into the air. The Cross was the OT firstfruits. All in Christ, enter Paradise with God's permanent incorruptible physical body, upon the soul leaving Adam's dead corruptible flesh. That is an ongoing phenomenon, according to 2 Corinthians 5. All the redeemed are changed to be able to enter Paradise. After the Second Coming, Jesus will reign on a restored earth for a thousand years, and then the end will come when Jesus hands back creation, restored and subdued. Just like Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15.

Why do many think those in Paradise are still in a state of death, somehow without a physical body? You all make it seem, we on earth, in death, are more alive than those in Paradise. We are not. They have a permanent incorruptible physical body and are alive enjoying the physical tree of life, in that heavenly city and serving God day and night in that heavenly temple, where there are still active temple associations, that go beyond what happens on earth.

"And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne."

This is all physically happening currently in that heavenly temple. Not just theological mind processes of imagination. Why do you all think heaven is just a physical void, with nothing tangible, but all some swirling spiritual mental activity in God's mind? The tree of life is physical. The Lamb's book of life is physical. Jesus is physical. Paradise is a physical place. The temple is physical. The alter is physical. All part of physical creation, yet you deny people having physical bodies. This is not being carnally minded. This is having a spiritual knowledge found directly in God's Word, that many posters here deny is even possible. God set up this physical heavenly kingdom back in the time of Daniel, and gave His people promises, that after 70 weeks, what was physically in heaven, would be also physically on the earth. The end of the 70th week is the end of time when the 7th Trumpet sounds, per Revelation 10. Then how it is in heaven, will be how it will be on the earth. Then Jesus will reign for a thousand years to fill and subdue the earth. The earth is not handed back to God as a burnt sacrifice void of physical life. The thousand year period will allow sinless humans to fill the earth as God intended without Adam's punishment, as a curse, holding creation in bondage of death and decay.

Christ never needed to be made alive because of being born a human. He did become sin for us, but that is not what Paul was describing. Paul said all in Adam were made dead. All in Christ would be made alive. Christ is not in Christ. The OT firstfruits were in Christ, when Jesus removed them from Abraham's bosom and made them alive by giving them the first resurrection, a permanent incorruptible physical body. Lazarus was the first example of being made alive, and ascended to Paradise with Christ, not left on earth to face the second death and wrath of God with the wicked.

Abraham's bosom was no longer available for dead souls. No one in Christ would taste death ever again after the Cross, like those waiting in Abraham's bosom in the OT. Tasting death is a soul not having a permanent incorruptible physical body. Tasting death is not experiencing the first resurrection into a permanent incorruptible physical body. That is not about the spiritual state of death, but the physical state of death. A soul without a physical body is physically dead and in need of the first resurrection. The rest of the dead in sheol have been waiting since the Cross, and will still be waiting after the Second Coming for over a thousand years. All souls in Christ have had the fist resurrection into a permanent incorruptible physical body into Paradise.

 

[Timtofly]

If they were resurrected with immortal bodies then Paul would have mentioned that when he gave the order of bodily resurrections unto immortality, but he didn't. So, they must have died again later like Lazarus did.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Of course they are mentioned. They are the firstfruits (plural).

Christ was never made alive. Only those under the punishment of death, in Adam, were the firstfruits, made alive. Christ never knew sin by being born into corruption. 2 Corinthians 5:21

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

The only time Jesus knew sin, and experienced death was as God, on the Cross. Not that Jesus was born a sinner with a corruptible physical body. Jesus was resurrected into the same permanent incorruptible physical body, He died on the Cross with. His old body did not return to dust, because it was not of death.


You do understand that those redeemed in Paradise are only in Paradise because they have been made alive, not waiting to be made alive? Why would God allow death into Paradise? From the Flood until the Cross, God made souls wait in the valley of the shadow of death, tasting death, in Abraham's bosom. How did that change at the Cross, if no has been made alive yet?

Are you saying all can wait in heaven, in the same condition as in Abraham's bosom not yet made alive? Why could they not wait in heaven before the Cross then? Do you not understand that the OT had to be made alive in order to leave Abraham's bosom and enter heaven? Ephesians 4:8-10

"Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things."

The OT came out of their graves in permanent incorruptible physical bodies. That was the gift of being the firstfruits of all the redeemed. This descending and ascending, was immediate in a twinkling of an eye, like the rapture. They came out of their graves instantly all over the earth, wherever they had lived. God leaves no one behind. It was a complete job, with the gift of eternal life to all those in Abraham's bosom, not just those who came out in Jerusalem, recorded by Matthew.

Why do you think Jesus is the resurrection and temporary life, and that the redeemed keep dying over and over again, just because you say so? Jesus did not need to be made alive; resurrected, yes. Was that a temporary resurrection? Then why are those made alive just a temporary resurrection? Being made alive at the Second Coming is only for those dead living on the earth in a mortal body of death. Not those in Paradise who have already been made alive, because that is the only way they can even be in heaven. No one can enjoy heaven waiting to be made alive. That was what Abraham's bosom was for in sheol.

Paul said that to be absent from the body, the soul, was to present with the Lord, not waiting in death, Abraham's bosom, nor some form of purgatory, because one is waiting to be made alive.

The hour of being made alive started with Lazarus and has been ongoing ever since.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

Everlasting life is being made alive. You don't change bodies with the second birth, you change spiritual families. The redemption of the body and being made alive is when the soul leaves this body of death, and enters God's permanent incorruptible physical body. 2 Corinthians 5:1

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

Paul is saying we should know what being made alive is from his first book to Corinth. Being made alive is receiving the first resurrection upon physical death, because one has the second birth certificate saying they belong to the family of God, prior to the redemption of the body. Back to Ephesians 4:30

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

The Holy Spirit does not continue to seal the soul in some waiting pattern, waiting for a single last hour for physical resurrection. Once one enters heaven after a first resurrection into a permanent incorruptible physical body, they are made alive and no longer need the Holy Spirit telling them how to enjoy Paradise.

Having the seal of the Holy Spirit only pertains to this mortal condition of death, as mortal means death.

"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."


In 1 Thessalonians 4, Paul was expecting to be alive at the Second Coming, so which physical body was Paul talking about in chapter 5? Did Paul say this natural mortal body needed to be preserved for thousands of years in a grave waiting for a resurrection? NO! A thousand times no. Paul was talking about living circumspect prior to physical death in this mortal body. Once the soul leaves death behind for eternal life, the soul is placed in a permanent incorruptible physical body, that does not need to be preserved blameless.

The difference between a natural body and a spiritual body is that one came from Adam of death, and the other comes from God of eternal life, the soul being made alive by putting on this body from God, also known as the first resurrection.

 

[Timtofly]

If it was a resurrection unto bodily immortality then he would have included it in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 where he gave the order of resurrections unto bodily immortality. I'm certain of that. So, those dead saints who were raised later died. It's as simple as that.

Paul did not mention any physical resurrection in these verses. Being "made alive" is not an implication of a resurrection.

Do you think the only resurrection happens to those physically alive on the earth at the Second Coming?

So literally no resurrection of dead bodies at all. Because only those physically alive on earth at the Second Coming are mentioned.

No one physically dead is on the earth, but in sheol.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits (you deny a physical resurrection at the Cross); afterward they that are Christ's at his coming (only those alive on the earth, no?). Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God. (Who are resurrected at this point, since Paul mentions no resurrection at all?)"

Unless there is one resurrection at the Cross, those alive at the Second Coming, and creation has been made alive when Jesus hands creation back to God, you have no resurrection mentioned at all.

Only those alive on earth still in death at the Second Coming need a resurrection. You have to add to Scripture stating those currently in heaven are still dead, how can God allow death to exists in Paradise?

A soul is physically dead when it has no physical body. If they are not physically dead in Paradise, then they have God's permanent incorruptible physical body. Otherwise death still reigns, even in heaven.