Is there anything in the Bible you believe to be God's Word? Don't you get tired of attacking Christians?
Is the "eternal fire" of Sodom still burning? - Nope
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The Bible we have is a corrupt translation created by doctrinally biased men to represent the original autographs, which are long gone.
The problem is that you, and those like you, want to pass that off as the "Word of God".
Nope.
Every time I yank your chain you come snarling and snapping. (like a cornered animal)
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Runningman
Active Member
In some cases it's probably apocalyptic language and not meant to be literal because we can verify that Sodom isn't still burning. I believe in this case the language is meant to be vivid and dramatic to convey the idea of God triumphing over evil. It is literal other times because we can surely know that God is eternal based on what the Bible says and describes about God. So it is literal sometimes and not literal other times. There are a lot of examples in the Bible of something not being literal in the most general sense, but in a specific context it might be literal.
VictoryinJesus
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I forget, assuming everyone has the same perspective of one must eat of His flesh and drink of His blood. As you pointed to: “My blood is the New covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” If we enter into another debate over are His words literal or Spirit, then that debate won’t go anywhere but in circles. When it comes to end times, or they will be tormented day and night forever, or even in regards to forever or everlasting…one’s perspective is key. how they will view those, all come out from what perspective they hold. Point is, I see I won’t change your perspective no matter what verses I ask about, no matter what point I’m driving at. even with how someone views forever …someone else can’t come along and expect to change how they see forever, when their definition of forever comes out of a fully built perspective. a fully built perspective where if one brick is removed, and then another, and then another —the whole structure becomes unstable and in danger of collapsing. For that reason I’ll stop. What matters most is God is good!
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Agree.
On a religious forum, everyone is selling, but no one is buying.
Essentially a failed economy. Bankrupt spiritually.
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And the EVERLASTING fire is very real. Jesus said so several times.I forget, assuming everyone has the same perspective of one must eat of His flesh and drink of His blood. As you pointed to: “My blood is the New covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” If we enter into another debate over are His words literal or Spirit, then that debate won’t go anywhere but in circles. When it comes to end times, or they will be tormented day and night forever, or even in regards to forever or everlasting…one’s perspective is key. how they will view those, all come out from what perspective they hold. Point is, I see I won’t change your perspective no matter what verses I ask about, no matter what point I’m driving at. even with how someone views forever …someone else can’t come along and expect to change how they see forever, when their definition of forever comes out of a fully built perspective. a fully built perspective where if one brick is removed, and then another, and then another —the whole structure becomes unstable and in danger of collapsing. For that reason I’ll stop. What matters most is God is good!
Rev 20 They will be tormented day and night FOREVER!
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
What is to be noted is that Jack hasn't plucked up enough courage to admit himself that Sodom isn't still burning. For him, the scripture
“Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. ”
Jude 1:7 KJV
must mean it refers not to what it says, but something else. He cannot fathom the concept that forever and ever means"so long as it takes to accomplish its purpose".
Perhaps someone needs to take him for a little journey to the middle east so he can see for himself? He doesn't comprehend that eternal fire does not mean everything in that fire is eternal. Is not God Himself a consuming fire? Is not God eternal? But surely that which is touched by that fire is consumed, yet the fire itself remains. There is however the following...
“The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? ”
Isaiah 33:14 KJV
Unfeigned Bible
Jack. Who survives being in the presence of God? Who survives being in the presence of everlasting eternal flame? Who survives “And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire"...
Who can stand in the midst of those everlasting burnings?..
“....them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. ”
Revelation 15:2 KJV
Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? The next verse tells us.
“He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil; ”
Isaiah 33:15 KJV
Unfeigned Bible
Jack. Your perspective of the wrath of God needs to take into account all of scripture. What is destroyed by the presence of God, the devouring consuming fire, is sin. God does not plan to immortalize sin and those who cleave to it. They are consumed by the presence of God Himself, and those that survive are those covered by the blood of the Lamb. Sin, evil, wickedness, rebellion cannot, will not, survive when God Himself comes down from heaven in the holy City and Satan convinces all the resurrected wicked to attack the camp of the saints in order to take over the throne of God. They are destroyed Jack. Completely and utterly obliterated from existence and the earth is then restored and recreated to its former Edenic glory and beauty without any "hell" or pain or sin or sinner or suffering or agony or crying to mar its perfection.
“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. ”
Matthew 10:28 KJV
The wages of sin is death. The second death in revelation is for the wicked only: that death is destruction.
“Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. ”
Jude 1:7 KJV
Perhaps someone needs to take him for a little journey to the middle east so he can see for himself? He doesn't comprehend that eternal fire does not mean everything in that fire is eternal. Is not God Himself a consuming fire? Is not God eternal? But surely that which is touched by that fire is consumed, yet the fire itself remains. There is however the following...
“The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? ”
Isaiah 33:14 KJV
Unfeigned Bible
Jack. Who survives being in the presence of God? Who survives being in the presence of everlasting eternal flame? Who survives “And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire"...
Who can stand in the midst of those everlasting burnings?..
“....them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. ”
Revelation 15:2 KJV
Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? The next verse tells us.
“He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil; ”
Isaiah 33:15 KJV
Unfeigned Bible
Jack. Your perspective of the wrath of God needs to take into account all of scripture. What is destroyed by the presence of God, the devouring consuming fire, is sin. God does not plan to immortalize sin and those who cleave to it. They are consumed by the presence of God Himself, and those that survive are those covered by the blood of the Lamb. Sin, evil, wickedness, rebellion cannot, will not, survive when God Himself comes down from heaven in the holy City and Satan convinces all the resurrected wicked to attack the camp of the saints in order to take over the throne of God. They are destroyed Jack. Completely and utterly obliterated from existence and the earth is then restored and recreated to its former Edenic glory and beauty without any "hell" or pain or sin or sinner or suffering or agony or crying to mar its perfection.
“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. ”
Matthew 10:28 KJV
The wages of sin is death. The second death in revelation is for the wicked only: that death is destruction.
“7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; ”
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 KJV
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Sodom may not be burning but the Sodomites are! God made them an "example"! The NT says so.What is to be noted is that Jack hasn't plucked up enough courage to admit himself that Sodom isn't still burning. For him, the scripture
“Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. ”
Jude 1:7 KJV
Perhaps someone needs to take him for a little journey to the middle east so he can see for himself? He doesn't comprehend that eternal fire does not mean everything in that fire is eternal. Is not God Himself a consuming fire? Is not God eternal? But surely that which is touched by that fire is consumed, yet the fire itself remains. There is however the following...
Jesus explained. Rev 20 They will be tormented day and night FOREVER!
So you don't believe in eternal life?
Matthew 25:41-46
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
EXACT same Greek word, NEVER ending!
"EVERLASTING destruction"! A process that NEVER ends!“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. ”
Matthew 10:28 KJV
2 Thessalonians 1:9
9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
From the presence the Lord. Hmm. That means they are still alive.
'Death' NEVER means 'cease to exist' in the Bible! NEVER!
2 Thessalonians 1:9“7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; ”
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 KJV
9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
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Brakelite
Well-Known Member
The punishment as ordained and set by God is the all important concept you need to grapple with. Yet you continue to recreate the English language to sit your arguments. What is it exactly in the above verse that is eternal. Punishment right? And what is that punishment? It is death. It is not eternal life in torment. It is not life at all, anywhere or in any circumstance.!!! Death and life are not the same. They are opposites. One cannot feel, experience sight, sound or joy or pain when dead. You are redefining language here. The wages of sin... The ultimate result of sin, is death. A complete cessation and absence of life. And yes, it is never ending, which means there is no hope of it ever being rescinded or overturned... Thus there is to be no future resurrection for those who experience the second death. Why do you think the righteous are to be resurrected? Baxter right now, those who will be saved, are not experiencing life beyond the grave. They are dead. Completely oblivious... Unconscious... Unaware of anything going on on the have it the earth or heaven. They are awaiting the promise of the resurrection... Then and only then will the dead have life and be aware of their surrounding again, and it will be of Jesus and angels accompanying them to heaven.
“7 Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass. 8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil. 9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. 10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. 11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace. 12 The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth. 13 The Lord shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming. 14 The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation. 15 Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken. 16 A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked. 17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous. 18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever. 19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied. 20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away. ”
Psalms 37:7-20 KJV
So you don't believe in eternal life? You have my sympathy!The punishment as ordained and set by God is the all important concept you need to grapple with. Yet you continue to recreate the English language to sit your arguments. What is it exactly in the above verse that is eternal. Punishment right? And what is that punishment? It is death. It is not eternal life in torment. It is not life at all, anywhere or in any circumstance.!!! Death and life are not the same. They are opposites. One cannot feel, experience sight, sound or joy or pain when dead. You are redefining language here. The wages of sin... The ultimate result of sin, is death. A complete cessation and absence of life. And yes, it is never ending, which means there is no hope of it ever being rescinded or overturned... Thus there is to be no future resurrection for those who experience the second death. Why do you think the righteous are to be resurrected? Baxter right now, those who will be saved, are not experiencing life beyond the grave. They are dead. Completely oblivious... Unconscious... Unaware of anything going on on the have it the earth or heaven. They are awaiting the promise of the resurrection... Then and only then will the dead have life and be aware of their surrounding again, and it will be of Jesus and angels accompanying them to heaven.
“7 Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass. 8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil. 9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. 10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. 11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace. 12 The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth. 13 The Lord shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming. 14 The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation. 15 Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken. 16 A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked. 17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous. 18 The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever. 19 They shall not be ashamed in the evil time: and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied. 20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away. ”
Psalms 37:7-20 KJV
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Yeah! Exact same Greek Word, NEVER ending. You can't claim eternal life and reject eternal punishment!
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Eternal life I accept. Eternal punishment... Death...I accept. Eternal torment or continuous punishing, I reject.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
"Everlasting destruction" is a great portion of a supporting text for my post #270. Thank you for helping me substantiate my point. I would love to hear your explanation as to how a everlasting destruction is the equivalent to being alive. Even more so, how everlasting destruction is an ongoing process that lasts for eternity. Is English your second or third language? I admire, even envy to some extent, people who speak more than one language... good on you. However, I think you need a little more study and help in some aspects. English I appreciate is not easy to learn. I have heard that from many who have taken on English as a second language. It isn't easy.
You seem to be ignoring "everlasting" among several other warnings from Jesus.
2 Thessalonians 1:9
9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Agree.
Could heaven really be heaven if you knew that even one of your loved ones was in eternal torment?
--- PARODY ---
Imagined conversation between Jesus and a distraught mother in heaven. (parody)
Mother: Lord, I was remembering my child.
Jesus: Yes, I can see her now in torment.
Mother: When will it end?
Jesus: Hell is forever.
Mother: Is there no hope for my child?
Jesus: Sorry, no hope for those in hell.
Mother: Surely my child has been punished enough by now.
Jesus: No, unbelief is an eternal crime.
Mother: I would gladly trade places with my child.
Jesus: I couldn't do that to you.
Mother: Why can you do it to my child?
Jesus: They are my enemy.
Mother: Didn't you teach us to love our enemies?
Jesus: Hmm... you got me there.
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Those burning in Hell will be gone and forgotten, forever.
Revelation 21:4
4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.
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VictoryinJesus
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Agree. Reminds me of Proverbs where there is no wood the fire goes out. 26:17-21 He that passes by, and meddles with strife belonging not to him, is like one that takes a dog by the ears. [18] As a mad man who casts firebrands, arrows, and death, [19] So is the man that deceives his neighbour, and says, Am not I in sport? [20] Where no wood is, there the fire goes out: so where there is no talebearer, the strife ceases. [21] As coals are to burning coals, and wood to fire; so is a contentious man to kindle strife.
Seems there is significant truth in: Galatians 5:14-15 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; you shall love your neighbour as yourself. [15] But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you be not consumed one of another.
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