Is pre-tribulation rapture a doctrine of demons?

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marks

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The fact he said he saw one vision after the first vision does not indicate a timeframe for the events he was seeing, one after another. He was just indicating, in his own time frame, the order in which he saw the visions--not the events they represented.

He saw one vision. And then he saw another vision. In saying, "next I saw," he was *not* saying that the next corresponding event was to take place in the immediately following time frame. He only saw the next vision immediately after the first vision.
I understand what you are saying here. That John had a series of visions, and the order which he saw the visions isn't necessarily the order in which those visions will be fulfulled.

At any rate, I do myself see much detail in the timings of things, and I hope to continue to post the timelines I see.

I disagree that we're talking about a 3.5 year period, I think there is demonstrably a 7 year period in view.

The 2 Witnesses and the beast show this. There are aslo other passages. But the 2 witnesses are untouchable for 3.5 years, then the beast, who is given power for 3.5 years kills them. So this is plainly a 7 year period, with a defined mid-point. That mid-point is when the abomination of desolation is set up. When the dragon - Satan - is cast down to the earth. When the Great Tribulation begins in earnest. When the 2 witnesses are killed. When those in Judea who flee, flee to the wilderness, to be nurtured by God. Each of these are shown in the Scripture.

Before this mid-point, the seals are opened, the trumpets 1-6 are sounded, with those corresponding events occuring in heaven and on earth. Then Satan is cast down and begins his destruction of humanity, as the bowls are emptied, those events occuring, and as the armies of the earth are gathered to Jerusalem.

We should understand that God works in pageantry, and vision, but works real plans in the earth, and on it's people.

Much love!
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Calm down, Barney.

Death in the natural is only physical, not spiritual.

Just like sleep in the natural is not sleep in the spirit world.

Jesus is the firstborn of the resurrection, meaning the millions upon millions of saints will all follow our "last Adam" to our resurrection.

Abandon the Watchtower immediately, Barney.

Also, satan will burn and feel the flames forever and ever.

I call that destruction.

You think it's the watchtower that penned Genesis 2:7. Nowhere in the scripture at Genesis 2:7 does it say God gave man a soul, it says man became a living Soul. That's just reading the scripture truther. I know you don't want to acknowledge that it was a combinational act that God did when he caused Adam to become a living Soul. This shows you rather go by some belief someone taught you, than read that scripture as it's written, now that's what I call being brainwashed. You refuse to read that scripture as it's written truther. You also refuse to agree that God was talking to and about what was going to happen to the person when God stated to Adam, "for dust you are and dust shall you return." God was talking to a person when God said that truther, God was saying what was going to happen to him. God wasn't talking to just a body when he used the word, "you," when he said to Adam, for dust YOU are and to dust YOU will return, God was talking to the person, Adam, not just his body.
 
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marks

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They try to make them all fit into a

IF that is someone's goal - to "make something fit" - of course I don't think that is the right way to come to the Bible. We need to read it for what it says.

What I find in the Revelation is primarily a defined midpoint, perhaps most easily expressed here:

Revelation 11:3-7
3) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4) These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5) And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6) These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7) And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Revelation 13:4-7
4) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5) And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6) And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7) And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

When I look at these passages, I find within them times given, and those times show a relationship with each other. Do you see this also? That the witnesses have 42 months while they cannot be stopped, then they are killed. And the beast is given 42 months over everyone, and this time also will come to an end.

We know the end is when Jesus returns.

So these passages, or so it seems to me, express a 7 year period of time, divided into two 3.5 year periods, ending when Jesus returns. Do you agree?

Much love!
 

marks

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the completion of the opening of the scroll, representing history in the present age.
I see this scroll as a scroll of God's judgment, in the same way as the scroll in Ezekiel 2, written on both sides with lamentations and woe.
That the opening of those seals begin the judgment foretold. The first seal that a conqueror rises in the earth. The second that violence permeates society (great "short sword"). The third inflation and famine and elitism. The fourth brings death.

Government becomes hostile to man. Society becomes hostile to man. Economy becomes hostile to man. And the Ecology becomes hostile to man.

All that man counts on turns against him.

Much love!
 

Randy Kluth

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I see this scroll as a scroll of God's judgment, in the same way as the scroll in Ezekiel 2, written on both sides with lamentations and woe.
That the opening of those seals begin the judgment foretold. The first seal that a conqueror rises in the earth. The second that violence permeates society (great "short sword"). The third inflation and famine and elitism. The fourth brings death.

Government becomes hostile to man. Society becomes hostile to man. Economy becomes hostile to man. And the Ecology becomes hostile to man.

All that man counts on turns against him.

Much love!

I find the 7 Seals difficult to pin down to a certain event or events. In Zechariah we read of horsemen, and they seem to relate to the settling of a particular time period, namely in the days of Zechariah.

But in Revelation, the context is not specific with any particular event except the coming of the Kingdom of God. So I tend to see the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse not as specific events, but rather, an overall judgment upon the earth beginning in the time of John.

There is this regular conquest of ungodly countries--ungodly countries are always eventually judged. Peace is taken from the earth because the pagan world largely does not receive Christ. There's famine because the pagan world does not turn to the Lord for their sustenance. And there are the various plagues that follow upon those who rebel against the Lord in their paganism.

That's why in the 5th seal we see martyrs, because the world is being exposed for its hostility towards God. The way they treat Christians is the way they treat God. And ultimately, in the 6th seal we are told the Day of Wrath is arriving. In the 7th Seal this is explained in detail to John.

In sum, I see the 7 seals as a rough draft explaining the state of the earth from John until now, when the world largely rejects Christ, and incurs the wrath of God. That wrath has a specific day in which it will be poured out. It will be on the day of Christ's return. It will involve the 7 trumpets announcing the coming of wrath upon the earth, perhaps an indication of what the effects of Armageddon will be.
 

Randy Kluth

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IF that is someone's goal - to "make something fit" - of course I don't think that is the right way to come to the Bible. We need to read it for what it says.

What I find in the Revelation is primarily a defined midpoint, perhaps most easily expressed here:

Revelation 11:3-7
3) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4) These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5) And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6) These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7) And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Revelation 13:4-7
4) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5) And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6) And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7) And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

When I look at these passages, I find within them times given, and those times show a relationship with each other. Do you see this also? That the witnesses have 42 months while they cannot be stopped, then they are killed. And the beast is given 42 months over everyone, and this time also will come to an end.

We know the end is when Jesus returns.

So these passages, or so it seems to me, express a 7 year period of time, divided into two 3.5 year periods, ending when Jesus returns. Do you agree?

Much love!

Not at all. I have a unique way of deciding how to interpret Bible Prophecy, and it may or may not help you. I don't know if God just gave this approach to me? What I do is let the Scriptures speak for themselves, and then find the origins of doctrines that set precedents for what comes later. I will explain this in regard to the supposed 7 year tribulation.

I have held to something like your view before, and have changed my view, based on this method of interpretation. I used to think half of Daniel's week was fulfilled in the 3.5 years of Christ's ministry, leaving 3.5 years to be fulfilled in the Great Tribulation. I no longer think this way. Please don't be shocked--most Christians are turned off by my view because it does not fit the popular approach today!

I looked up the precedent for every one of the doctrines of biblical eschatology. I found that the 3.5 years of Antichristian Rule began with Dan 7, and became the source for the 3.5 years of Antichristian Rule mentioned in the Revelation.

In the Revelation, this period is described in various ways, as a time, times and half a time, as 42 months, and as 1260 days. I think this is the time of Antichrist's uncontested rule, and that on the 1260 days he commits the atrocious crime of murdering the 2 Witnesses, which leads to the beginning of a challenge to his power.

Time continues after the 1260 days, but Antichrist's power is waning. The world marches to Armageddon to challenge him, and a world war takes place in a single hour. How many days, weeks, or month it takes for the nations to march to Armageddon to challenge Antichrist I don't know? 1260 plus _____ days?

But I can't correlate Dan 9 and Daniel's 70th Week with the 3.5 year time period mentioned in Dan 7. I think Daniel's 70th Week was fulfilled, as the Church Fathers thought, with the 3.5 years of Christ's earthly ministry. He was cut off in the midst of the 70th Week so that a complete 7 year period was never even fulfilled. The prophecy only said something would happen in the 70th Week--not that a complete Week would be fulfilled.

So if Daniel's 70th Week has nothing to do with the 3.5 years of Antichrist's Rule, mentioned in Dan 7, then we have no basis for 7 years of Antichristian Rule in the Revelation either. It is strictly a 3.5 year Rule!

Even more, I wouldn't call this the "Great Tribulation," as if often done. Jesus defined the "Great Tribulation" as the NT Jewish Diaspora in Luke 21. That is beyond question, in my thinking. However, the fact people wish to call the period of Antichristian Rule the "Great Tribulation" indicates their thinking that this period of time involves not just the persecution of Christians, but also God's punishment coming down upon the world throughout this time.

I don't believe that. Although the wicked, including Antichrist, are always somewhat under Divine judgment, their punishment will largely come towards the end of the 3.5 year period, if not at the very end, at the Battle of Armageddon.

This is how I interpret things with confidence, by tracing the origins of the doctrine. In this case, we can go to Daniel for help. We just need to interpret him accurately! But thanks for asking.
 

Truther

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You think it's the watchtower that penned Genesis 2:7. Nowhere in the scripture at Genesis 2:7 does it say God gave man a soul, it says man became a living Soul. That's just reading the scripture truther. I know you don't want to acknowledge that it was a combinational act that God did when he caused Adam to become a living Soul. This shows you rather go by some belief someone taught you, than read that scripture as it's written, now that's what I call being brainwashed. You refuse to read that scripture as it's written truther. You also refuse to agree that God was talking to and about what was going to happen to the person when God stated to Adam, "for dust you are and dust shall you return." God was talking to a person when God said that truther, God was saying what was going to happen to him. God wasn't talking to just a body when he used the word, "you," when he said to Adam, for dust YOU are and to dust YOU will return, God was talking to the person, Adam, not just his body.
The flesh of man was dust.

The soul/human spirit is a part of man that God knows even before the flesh is created for the man....

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.


You see, our parents created our flesh, not our spirit, lest they be God.
 

marks

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I find the 7 Seals difficult to pin down to a certain event or events. In Zechariah we read of horsemen, and they seem to relate to the settling of a particular time period, namely in the days of Zechariah.

But in Revelation, the context is not specific with any particular event except the coming of the Kingdom of God. So I tend to see the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse not as specific events, but rather, an overall judgment upon the earth beginning in the time of John.

There is this regular conquest of ungodly countries--ungodly countries are always eventually judged. Peace is taken from the earth because the pagan world largely does not receive Christ. There's famine because the pagan world does not turn to the Lord for their sustenance. And there are the various plagues that follow upon those who rebel against the Lord in their paganism.

That's why in the 5th seal we see martyrs, because the world is being exposed for its hostility towards God. The way they treat Christians is the way they treat God. And ultimately, in the 6th seal we are told the Day of Wrath is arriving. In the 7th Seal this is explained in detail to John.

In sum, I see the 7 seals as a rough draft explaining the state of the earth from John until now, when the world largely rejects Christ, and incurs the wrath of God. That wrath has a specific day in which it will be poured out. It will be on the day of Christ's return. It will involve the 7 trumpets announcing the coming of wrath upon the earth, perhaps an indication of what the effects of Armageddon will be.
OK, I appreciate your sharing how you see this! So then you see the seals as describing in an overall sense revealing the state of Humanity's rebellion to God? Something like what might be called a Historical View? That these seals describe the events over the centuries as mankind becomes worse and worse?

My understanding of this 7 sealed scroll is that it marks the beginning of God's judgment upon the earth. Jesus prophesied false christs and prophets, famines and earthquakes and disease, wars and rumor of wars, not yet the end, but in escalating birth pangs.

I think that the escalating birth pangs of the present time will be enacted as judgments against the earth dwellers in the opening of these seals. In the 4 horsemen, false christs and false prophets, who seek their rule over the people, will become the Beast, conquering. The wars and rumors of wars will become violence spread throughout humanity. Famines and inflation/devaluation, and diseases, animal attacks, will all become extreme.

In short, the overall destabilization of the world shown in Jesus' prophecy of birth pangs, stopping, starting, increasing, will become continuous world conditions.

The on-again/off-again nature of the hostility of ecology to man, for instance, in the opening of the 4th seal the ecology will become simply hostile to man over 1/4 of the earth.

In the opening of the first 4 seals, Government, Society, Economy, and Ecology are each transformed fundamentally to become hostile to humanity.

In the opening of the 5th seal I see a changing of the dispensation. I can explain that more if you like.

And in the opening of the 6th seal I see the sudden destruction that marks the beginning of the end as prophecied by Jesus, Paul, others.

In the opening of the 7th seal I see the beginning of the 70th Week, with the 144,000 Israelites sealed, and with the church standing before the throne of God in heaven.

So in summary, I see the opening of the scroll to bring about the earthly conditions which will exist in during the 70th Week, and marking the beginning of God's judgment of this world.

Much love!
 

marks

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Please don't be shocked--most Christians are turned off by my view because it does not fit the popular approach today!
I've studied and debated these things for many many years. And my view isn't exactly Calvary Chapel Standard Eschatology. But I follow as closely as I can an historical/grammatical hermaneutic.

Much love!
 

marks

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This is how I interpret things with confidence, by tracing the origins of the doctrine. In this case, we can go to Daniel for help. We just need to interpret him accurately! But thanks for asking.
There are, I think, a number of underlying conclusions we've reached on various things.

You've mentioned that Jesus defined the great tribulation as the diaspora.

In Matthew, Jesus prophesied that following the abomination of desolation, a future event at that time, there would be 'great tribulation', more than at any other time. And immediately after the tribulation of those days, Jesus returns and stops it.

So I follow along with Jesus' description of the time from the Abomination of Desolation to the time when Jesus returns as the time of greatest tribulation, or in the vernacular, the great tribulation.

Some see this abomination of desolation as "Satan sits in the hearts of the Christians" as an historical view idea.

But I see it as what Jesus said, the abomination that causes desolation standing in the holy place, and that this sets off a series of events ending with His return at Israel's request.

Regarding the 70th week, I've known several who have held to that view, all that remains is the "short trib", as one of them would say. I don't find that supported in Scripture myself.

Much love!
 

marks

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I looked up the precedent for every one of the doctrines of biblical eschatology.
What does this mean? I've been wondering that.

My main ways of learning Bible prophecy is firstly asking God for understanding, and then both reading and rereading chapters and books so I know what they all say, and can meditate on how they all work together, and by studying the words in detail, so I know what I'm reading and rereading means what I think it means.

And then I just follow along with what it all says.

Much love!
 
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Truman

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I am really starting to wonder if the pre-tribulation rapture is a doctrine of demons. It sounds wonderful but in reality I think it is a stretch to conclude that there will be a pre-trib rapture from scripture. Yet it is taught with confidence that it is truth. If it is a false teaching that Timothy warns about, many people will be devastated when they are not raptured before the poop hits the fan. I am not worried as I am sure God will protect us but if I spend my days attending a church that teaches this am I just itching my ears? I want truth, I can handle the truth.
Yes.
 

Truman

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Regarding what the world has been going through, the only word that comes to my mind is tribulation. :eek:
 

marks

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But I can't correlate Dan 9 and Daniel's 70th Week with the 3.5 year time period mentioned in Dan 7. I think Daniel's 70th Week was fulfilled, as the Church Fathers thought, with the 3.5 years of Christ's earthly ministry. He was cut off in the midst of the 70th Week so that a complete 7 year period was never even fulfilled. The prophecy only said something would happen in the 70th Week--not that a complete Week would be fulfilled.
There are certainly a number of different ways people look at the 70 weeks. But I again point to the timeline of the 2 witnesses and the power of the beast. This shows two back-to-back 3.5 year periods, with some of these plagues occuring during the first, and some during the second.

So I use the less ambiguous to help me understand the more ambiguous.

Much love!
 

marks

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Jesus defined the "Great Tribulation" as the NT Jewish Diaspora in Luke 21.
I couldn't find this, where Jesus said the great tribulation would be the diaspora, could you be more specific where you are looking in that chapter?

Much love!
 

ChristisGod

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I understand what you are saying here. That John had a series of visions, and the order which he saw the visions isn't necessarily the order in which those visions will be fulfulled.

At any rate, I do myself see much detail in the timings of things, and I hope to continue to post the timelines I see.

I disagree that we're talking about a 3.5 year period, I think there is demonstrably a 7 year period in view.

The 2 Witnesses and the beast show this. There are aslo other passages. But the 2 witnesses are untouchable for 3.5 years, then the beast, who is given power for 3.5 years kills them. So this is plainly a 7 year period, with a defined mid-point. That mid-point is when the abomination of desolation is set up. When the dragon - Satan - is cast down to the earth. When the Great Tribulation begins in earnest. When the 2 witnesses are killed. When those in Judea who flee, flee to the wilderness, to be nurtured by God. Each of these are shown in the Scripture.

Before this mid-point, the seals are opened, the trumpets 1-6 are sounded, with those corresponding events occuring in heaven and on earth. Then Satan is cast down and begins his destruction of humanity, as the bowls are emptied, those events occuring, and as the armies of the earth are gathered to Jerusalem.

We should understand that God works in pageantry, and vision, but works real plans in the earth, and on it's people.

Much love!
Agreed there are distinct 3.5 periods presented in Revelations. Pre and post AOD.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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The flesh of man was dust.

The soul/human spirit is a part of man that God knows even before the flesh is created for the man....

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.


You see, our parents created our flesh, not our spirit, lest they be God.

Like I said truther you refuse to believe that God was talking to a person. You have been Brainwashed to believe a belief that someone taught you, and not believe that God was talking to a person when God was stating the punishment for disobedience to Adam. So like I said you believe what the pagans believed, that didn't believe in death but that the person continues living in another plain of existence. So you can say what you want about the watchtower they believe in death you and others that believe as you don't, you believe the person continues living.
 

Truther

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Like I said truther you refuse to believe that God was talking to a person. You have been Brainwashed to believe a belief that someone taught you, and not believe that God was talking to a person when God was stating the punishment for disobedience to Adam. So like I said you believe what the pagans believed, that didn't believe in death but that the person continues living in another plain of existence. So you can say what you want about the watchtower they believe in death you and others that believe as you don't, you believe the person continues living.
Barney, why to you emulate that magazine over the Bible?

Who exactly are these writers?

Think about it.

Try thinking for yourself for once.

I had to, so you can too.