Is pre-tribulation rapture a doctrine of demons?

[Truther]

Those mentioned in Revelation 20:4 are those who were beheaded (who were asleep - see Revelation 6:11) and those who were alive at Christ’s coming.

Those in Revelation 20:5 are those who died prior to the beasts’ coming. They will not be raised up until after Christ’s 1,000 year reign on earth.

Read prior chapters.

Multitudes in previous chapters praising God in heaven.

If you would like, I will post them....


Chapter 5...

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;


Chapter 7...


7 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;



Chapter 19....


6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

 

[marks]

Some prophecies were foretold in advance through the use of obscure intimations or symbolic representations. For example, the serpent would bruise the man's heel. How obscure is that? "A young woman shall have a child." How obscure is that? The prophecies of Christ, before his coming, were so obscure that most Jews found it difficult to apply them to Jesus unless they were drawn, initially, by his spirituality.

God did it that way. Jesus gave parables so that those inclined towards the truth would understand them. That's how the book of Revelation was written, using a lot of symbolism. It spoke to those so inclined to the truths about Jesus. It isn't a literal timeline of history. Rather, it appeals to those of faith.

If symbols are not defined in the Bible, how can you know what they mean? If times and such aren't given in the Bible, again, how can you know?

My faith is in Christ, and His revelation to man. How is there any less appeal to faith to trust that His Word is written to be understood?

And again, what of the so very many prophecies given with clarity, and with clear fulfillments?

Why do you think there was great expectation among the people during Jesus' days on earth? Wasn't it because of Daniel's prophecies? By taking a literal fulfillment?

Much love!

 

[marks]

YOu just can't retranslate Magog to fit your concepts. REad Ezekiel 38&39 and compare it with REv. 20. They are not even similar! To try to fit both together does grave injustice to Gods Word.

I'm not retranslating anything. Shall we look at these passages in detail?

Much love!

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Chapter 5...

These are those mentioned here:

Matthew 27:52-53
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

And possibly these:

1 Peter 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Or this was possibly an out of sequence vision that John saw.

Chapter 7...

This is the parallel sequence of the final trumpet blast of the seventh angel in Revelation 11:15.

Chapter 19....

And this is the resurrection at Christ’s return:

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

 

[Truther]

These are those mentioned here:

Matthew 27:52-53
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

And possibly these:

1 Peter 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Or this was possibly an out of sequence vision that John saw.



This is the parallel sequence of the final trumpet blast of the seventh angel in Revelation 11:15.



And this is the resurrection at Christ’s return:

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

The spirits of just men made perfect seen in Heaven(Heb 12) are quite active for being asleep.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

The spirits of just men made perfect seen in Heaven(Heb 12) are quite active for being asleep.

Hebrews 12
[22] But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, [23] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect

Obviously those reading this text have not literally come to mount Sion yet. And those spirits are asleep until we literally come to mount Sion.

 

[Randy Kluth]

If symbols are not defined in the Bible, how can you know what they mean? If times and such aren't given in the Bible, again, how can you know?

Did the parables of Jesus all need timelines to be understood? No. But in Revelation we have a general time line. Most of it has to do with the 3.5 years of Antichrist's Reign, mentioned in Dan 7.

But as to how to fit the visions together in a time line is of no concern. Each vision has its own message. And we don't need a specific time line to understand the message.

The vision of the woman clothed with the sun seems to be a flashback to when Christ was born. But the message is largely for Christians in the entire endtimes area, in particular in the last 3.5 years of the age. We don't have to be concerned that Jesus was born 2000 years ago to understand and apply this message today!

Same with the series of 7 seals, trumpets, and vials. We don't have to see them in chronological sequence to understand that each are a set that leads to a common goal, the Kingdom of God. We can see them all as depictions of divine judgment, necessary to bring evil to an end in the present age. We don't have to have a specific chronology that puts them all together in a time line!

My faith is in Christ, and His revelation to man. How is there any less appeal to faith to trust that His Word is written to be understood?

God distinguishes those of faith by appealing to their sense of which characters represent true righteousness and which do not. Christians understand that righteousness comes from following Christ. The wicked world won't understand this. It has nothing whatsoever to do with a time sequence, or with a specific chronology. Parables are told to set apart images that would draw the attention of Christians, but not the attention of those who would justify themselves.

And again, what of the so very many prophecies given with clarity, and with clear fulfillments?

Many of the prophecies of the Bible were not so clear for those who justified themselves. For example, the prophecies of Jeremiah concerning the destruction of Jerusalem are quite clear. But in his day, he was imprisoned for daring to suggest this, because the Jews denied that they did wrong, and that God was going to judge them.

Why do you think there was great expectation among the people during Jesus' days on earth? Wasn't it because of Daniel's prophecies? By taking a literal fulfillment?
Much love!

Not at all. There was much confusion among the Jews about whether Messianic prophecy applied to Jesus. The ones who accepted him were not convinced by the prophecies alone, but also by their attraction to his spirituality and holiness.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Ronald Nolette said: No, that is what the Watchtower has told you that you have to believe that![/Quote\]

Man is not of the spirit, spiritual. Man is of the earth, earthy: “Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground.” (Genesis 2:7) The body that God created for man was made up of the elements taken from the earth and the atmosphere. It was not a spiritual body, and it cannot be spiritualized so as to become invisible and able to inhabit the spirit realm. It was a physical body, separate and distinct from a spiritual body that the the heavenly “sons of God” possess. Just as a Bible commentator of the first century C.E. said: “If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one.” The two kinds of bodies must not be confused, and the Bible does not confuse them.—1 Corinthians 15:44.

To make that first human body alive and functioning perfectly, God did not take from heaven a bodyless “soul” (psy·kheʹ) that, according to the pagan Greek idea, was flitting around like a butterfly, and breathe or infused it into the lifeless body. God breathed into the body not a mere current of air to expand the body’s lungs. It was nothing like mouth-to-mouth reviving as in the case of a drowned person. What God breathed into the nostrils of the body is called “the breath of life,” which not only filled the lungs with air but also imparted to the body the life-force that is sustained by breathing. In this way “the man came to be a living soul.” Nowhere in Genesis 2:7 does it say God gave the body that God formed a soul. Even animals have the breath of life. Just as humans are souls so are animals.

At 2Corinthians 5:8
Paul says: “We are of good courage and are well pleased rather to become absent from the body and to make our home with the Lord.” Some believe that these words refer to an intermediate state of waiting. Such ones refer also to Jesus’ promise to his faithful followers that he was going to prepare a place in which to ‘receive them home to himself.’ But when would such prospects be realized? Christ said that it would be when he ‘came again’ in his future presence. (John 14:1-3) Similarly, at 2 Corinthians 5:1-10, Paul said that the hope common to anointed Christians was to inherit a heavenly dwelling. This would come about, not through some presumed immortality of the soul, but through a resurrection during Christ’s presence. (1 Corinthians 15:23, 42-44) Exegete Charles Masson concludes that 2 Corinthians 5:1-10 “can be well understood then without having to resort to the hypothesis of an ‘intermediate state.’”

Those Scriptures you quoted from revelations they are happening during the second presence of Jesus Christ, or second coming as others call it.
These things that John is shown do not happen before the second presence. Revelation 1:10 shows that by inspiration he came to be in the lord's day, which the time of Jesus second presence. Also revelation was shown to the Apostle John in signs. Which means a lot of Revelations is symbolic.

At 1Thessalonians 5:23 Paul was referring to the spirit, soul, and body of the composite Christian congregation, which included spirit-anointed Christians in Thessalonica. Instead of simply praying that the congregation be preserved, he prayed for the preservation of its “spirit,” or mental disposition. He also prayed for its “soul,” its life, or existence, and for its “body”—the composite body of anointed Christians. (1 Cor. 12:12, 13) The prayer thus highlights Paul’s intense concern for the congregation.

To learn the truth about “soul” and “spirit” we must distinguish between their two different meanings and distinctive applications. That there is a difference is clearly seen in the Bible at Hebrews 4:12, where it says: “For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul. The distinction is also shown at 1 Thessalonians 5:23.

Please note at Genesis 2:7, man did not receive a soul, rather, he came to be a living soul. Hence man is a soul. Therefore, you do not possess a soul, but you yourself are a soul. A living human soul has two vital constituents: fleshly body plus life force. Separate the life-force from the body, and there is no living soul. The soul becomes nonexistent. Man is no longer “a breather,” and therefore, is no longer a soul. It is like water made of two gases, hydrogen and oxygen. By combining these two gases in correct proportions, water is formed. Extract one of the gases from the compound, and the water ceases to exist.

Accordingly, at death you do not become a disembodied soul. No, for the simple reason that your fleshly body is a part of your soul. When the body dies, the soul is dead, it ceases to exist. Neither do you become a disembodied spirit. Why not? Because the spirit is the impersonal life-force, which animates the living soul, and which empowers the soul to think, move, and live. When the life-force, or Spirit, is extinguished within the living soul, the effect is similar to what happens when electricity is withdrawn from a light bulb. The light is extinguished. Where does the light go? It simply becomes nonexistent. It is for this reason that death is the very opposite of life. And that is why death came to mankind as a punishment for disobedience to the Creator of life.
The human soul is, therefore, not immortal, but mortal—subject to death and extinction. In confirmation of this, the Bible states: “Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” (Ezekiel 18:4)

The Bible, as God’s Word, authoritatively states: “Do not put your trust in nobles, nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs. His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.” “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are going.”—Psalm 146:3, 4; Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10.
The Bible thus teaches that death brings total cessation to one’s thinking and consciousness. Death ends activity, work, devising, knowledge, and wisdom. Death is nonexistence.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

BTW: YOu wrote on your avatar that you are a Christian. Well the Watchtower says only the 144,000 are the bride class or Christians, so are you believing you are one of the 144,000?

Shows exactly that you don't know about the watchtower as you say you do. Get a clue and accept the fact you don't know what the watchtower is saying. The fact that what you just said about the watchtower shows that you are typical of the ones who lie about the watchtower because you think you know what they teach and you don't.

 

[marks]

Did the parables of Jesus all need timelines to be understood? No. But in Revelation we have a general time line. Most of it has to do with the 3.5 years of Antichrist's Reign, mentioned in Dan 7.

But as to how to fit the visions together in a time line is of no concern. Each vision has its own message. And we don't need a specific time line to understand the message.

The vision of the woman clothed with the sun seems to be a flashback to when Christ was born. But the message is largely for Christians in the entire endtimes area, in particular in the last 3.5 years of the age. We don't have to be concerned that Jesus was born 2000 years ago to understand and apply this message today!

Same with the series of 7 seals, trumpets, and vials. We don't have to see them in chronological sequence to understand that each are a set that leads to a common goal, the Kingdom of God. We can see them all as depictions of divine judgment, necessary to bring evil to an end in the present age. We don't have to have a specific chronology that puts them all together in a time line!



God distinguishes those of faith by appealing to their sense of which characters represent true righteousness and which do not. Christians understand that righteousness comes from following Christ. The wicked world won't understand this. It has nothing whatsoever to do with a time sequence, or with a specific chronology. Parables are told to set apart images that would draw the attention of Christians, but not the attention of those who would justify themselves.



Many of the prophecies of the Bible were not so clear for those who justified themselves. For example, the prophecies of Jeremiah concerning the destruction of Jerusalem are quite clear. But in his day, he was imprisoned for daring to suggest this, because the Jews denied that they did wrong, and that God was going to judge them.



Not at all. There was much confusion among the Jews about whether Messianic prophecy applied to Jesus. The ones who accepted him were not convinced by the prophecies alone, but also by their attraction to his spirituality and holiness.

So basically it sounds like you are saying that the more spiritual one is, the more they will recognize that the words of the Bible don't necessarily mean what they say.

I don't agree.

Time will tell. The examples from the past support literal fulfillments.

Much love!

 

[Truther]

Hebrews 12
[22] But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, [23] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect

Obviously those reading this text have not literally come to mount Sion yet. And those spirits are asleep until we literally come to mount Sion.

Actually, they have come to all of those invisible entities.

We are just one heartbeat away from seeing them.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

They still exist and await resurrection into a new body.....


22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

The Bible gives much enlightenment on the Soul.The Bible’s description of the human soul is found at Genesis 2:7, “Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of the dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.
Please note, at Genesis 2:7 man did not receive a soul, he became a living soul. Hence man is a soul. Therefore, you do not possess a soul, but you yourself are a soul. A living human soul has two vital constituents: fleshly body plus life-force. Separate the life-force from the body, and there is no living soul. The soul becomes nonexistent. Man is no longer “a breather,” and therefore, is no longer a soul. It is like water made of two gases, hydrogen and oxygen. By combining these two gases in correct proportions, water is formed. Extract one of the gases from the compound, and the water ceases to exist.

Accordingly, at death you do not become a disembodied soul. No, for the simple reason that your fleshly body is a part of your soul. When the body dies, the soul is dead, it ceases to exist. Neither do you become a disembodied spirit. Why not? Because the spirit is the impersonal life-force, which animates the living soul, and which empowers the soul to think, move, and live. When the life-force, is extinguished within the living soul, the effect is similar to what happens when electricity is withdrawn from a light bulb. The light is extinguished. Where does the light go? It simply becomes nonexistent. It is for this reason that death is the very opposite of life. And that is why death came to mankind as a punishment for disobedience to the Creator of life.

The human soul is, therefore, not immortal, but mortal—subject to death and extinction. In confirmation of this, the Bible states: “Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” Ezekiel 18:4

The Bible thus teaches that death brings total cessation to one’s thinking and consciousness. Death ends activity, work, devising, knowledge, and wisdom. Death is nonexistence. Assuredly there is no life after death! This explanation of the human soul and condition of the dead may come as a shock to many.

 

[Truther]

The Bible gives much enlightenment on the Soul.The Bible’s description of the human soul is found at Genesis 2:7, “Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of the dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.
Please note, at Genesis 2:7 man did not receive a soul, he became a living soul. Hence man is a soul. Therefore, you do not possess a soul, but you yourself are a soul. A living human soul has two vital constituents: fleshly body plus life-force. Separate the life-force from the body, and there is no living soul. The soul becomes nonexistent. Man is no longer “a breather,” and therefore, is no longer a soul. It is like water made of two gases, hydrogen and oxygen. By combining these two gases in correct proportions, water is formed. Extract one of the gases from the compound, and the water ceases to exist.

Accordingly, at death you do not become a disembodied soul. No, for the simple reason that your fleshly body is a part of your soul. When the body dies, the soul is dead, it ceases to exist. Neither do you become a disembodied spirit. Why not? Because the spirit is the impersonal life-force, which animates the living soul, and which empowers the soul to think, move, and live. When the life-force, is extinguished within the living soul, the effect is similar to what happens when electricity is withdrawn from a light bulb. The light is extinguished. Where does the light go? It simply becomes nonexistent. It is for this reason that death is the very opposite of life. And that is why death came to mankind as a punishment for disobedience to the Creator of life.

The human soul is, therefore, not immortal, but mortal—subject to death and extinction. In confirmation of this, the Bible states: “Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” Ezekiel 18:4

The Bible thus teaches that death brings total cessation to one’s thinking and consciousness. Death ends activity, work, devising, knowledge, and wisdom. Death is nonexistence. Assuredly there is no life after death! This explanation of the human soul and condition of the dead may come as a shock to many.

The fact that man is a living soul means that man lives forever.

It is an invisible part of the human spirit of man.

Man was made in the image of Jesus Christ...body soul and spirit.

Only the body of Jesus could die, not his soul and spirit.

Same as we.

 

[Randy Kluth]

So basically it sounds like you are saying that the more spiritual one is, the more they will recognize that the words of the Bible don't necessarily mean what they say.

I don't agree.

Time will tell. The examples from the past support literal fulfillments.

Much love!

No, obviously I didn't say that. If you really want to know what I said, either read my post again, or ask me what I meant.

Those who read Revelation in the pagan world will either recognize it as something spiritual, represented by a war in heaven between God and Satan, that is evident right now here on the earth. Or, they will write it off as a bunch of foolish gibberish.

If they do the latter, it shows that they are repulsed by the idea of a good God lording it over their personal decisions. They don't want to submit to their Creator.

Neither do you seem to want to see this any other way than your own wish to have this material chronologically arranged? I'm not even saying, for positive, who is right. This is just my opinion!

At least you accept it as the word of God, and recognize the spiritual warfare being described. Let's not just let it carry over into our own relationship. It's only a discussion. I'll respect your opinion, and hopefully you'll respect mine?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

The fact that man is a living soul means that man lives forever.

It is an invisible part of the human spirit of man.

Man was made in the image of Jesus Christ...body soul and spirit.

Only the body of Jesus could die, not his soul and spirit.

Same as we.

All this crap you're saying here is just as Satan calls God a liar and says a person doesn't die you and others who agree with what you said here agree with Satan. But you are saying Jesus didn't die too. So you and the others continue siding with Satan who says a person doesn't die and see how far that gets you. Satan is going to be destroyed and if you and others who agree with Satan and continue to say a person doesn't die will be destroyed. So you and others continue saying a person doesn't die.

 

[marks]

No, obviously I didn't say that. If you really want to know what I said, either read my post again, or ask me what I meant.

Those who read Revelation in the pagan world will either recognize it as something spiritual, represented by a war in heaven between God and Satan, that is evident right now here on the earth. Or, they will write it off as a bunch of foolish gibberish.

If they do the latter, it shows that they are repulsed by the idea of a good God lording it over their personal decisions. They don't want to submit to their Creator.

Neither do you seem to want to see this any other way than your own wish to have this material chronologically arranged? I'm not even saying, for positive, who is right. This is just my opinion!

At least you accept it as the word of God, and recognize the spiritual warfare being described. Let's not just let it carry over into our own relationship. It's only a discussion. I'll respect your opinion, and hopefully you'll respect mine?

This is not in my view something for us to become divided over.

I believe that the Revelation will give much comfort to those who endure the times described, as they see history unfolding according to His Word.

As far as your assertion that I "want to see this" in some certain way, well, if I only had a nickle for everytime someone has said that to me! As if I set such a low premium on truth and understanding as to fob it off on some illformed preference!

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

This is not in my view something for us to become divided over.

I believe that the Revelation will give much comfort to those who endure the times described, as they see history unfolding according to His Word.

As far as your assertion that I "want to see this" in some certain way, well, if I only had a nickle for everytime someone has said that to me! As if I set such a low premium on truth and understanding as to fob it off on some illformed preference!

Much love!

Brother, I only said that because you misrepresented my view so badly, and it seemed deliberate, as if you were angry for my challenging your "chronological" position. If you don't have a need to see it chronological, good.

In my view there isn't a smidgeon of evidence for your "chronological" theory in the Revelation itself. You would have to assume that the order in which John saw these visions requires that the events represented in those visions follow the same chronology. But that doesn't follow.

I might relate to you a couple of visions, all the while explaining what they mean in some cosmic drama. Telling you two visions one after another hardly means the events represented by those visions must take place in the same order that I relate them to you! This is just common sense!

No, you really have to have evidence from the events themselves, indicating that one takes place before another one. In the Revelation, all you have is John saying he saw one vision before another one, or rather, one vision after another one--not that the events they represent take place in the same order.

You have over 50 references to the word "then," and 13 references to "then I heard," and 12 references to "then I saw." John constantly refers us to the next thing he saw or heard, but in no way means that each vision represents events that take place one after another. Until you understand this argument, I don't think you're really responding well to my claims. You're just brushing them off.

If I turn on the TV and watch a 1990s movie, and then watch a 1960s movie, and then watch a 2015 movie, and then a 2000 movie, how would I describe it. *I saw* the 90s movie, and *then I saw* the 60s movie, and *then I watched* the 2015 movie, and *then I saw* the 2000 movie. Do each of these movies represent a chronology of the times they initially played for the 1st time? No!

It's the same thing with these visions. Some visions represent things yet to come in the future, and are prolepses. Some visions represent things already having taken place in the past--flashbacks. Several visions represent the exact same history, and are repeats looking at the same event at different angles.

There is no chronological sequence between these visions, even though the narrative is slowly progressing towards a description of the grand event, the coming of Christ. In all reality, Christ's Coming is represented by several visions before this grand climax! We have a progressive narrative, but we don't have a definitive timeline of events!

John is pasting vision after vision for us, saying "I saw this," and "then I saw that." None of that describes the time frame for the events represented in each vision. It really depends on the time frame of each event, and not the order in which I saw it.

 

[marks]

You have about 50 references to the word "then," and 13 references to "then I heard," and 12 references to "then I saw." John constantly refers us to the next thing he saw or heard, but in no way means that each vision represents events that take place one after another. Until you understand this argument, I don't think you're really responding well to my claims. You're just brushing it off.

Rather, I'm asking for the Scriptures which show these things to be so.

I've debated concerning the Revelation and rapture timing and eschatology with various people for decades, and, occassionally I hear a view I haven't heard before.

I understand the assertion, that because John saw 7 angels blow trumpets after seeing 7 seals opened doesn't mean that the trumpets are sounded after the seals are opened.

Some consider the seals and trumpets and bowls to be 3 ways each of describing 7 judgments. Some consider their timelines to be interwoven. This is for those who take a literal future fulfillment approach, so it leaves out the amils and preterists.

Personally, I find a great deal of detail which not only tells me the framework of how all these things are happening, but that also harmonize with OT and NT end times prophecies. It all paints the same picture, ending, with a most literal fulfillment as the valley in the mount of olives slams shut on the antichrist armies, and Jesus rescues His people.

If you have some Scriptural reason for these things to be occurring in something other than the apparent order of the vision, I'm interested to see it.

I find that there are narrative portions related to to a mid-point, and other paranthetical portions which also reference the mid-point. Again, it seems pretty simple to me, to just follow along as I read.

What is the reason, say, that the sounding of the trumpets DON'T follow the opening of the seals? What Scripture will show that?

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Rather, I'm asking for the Scriptures which show these things to be so.

I've debated concerning the Revelation and rapture timing and eschatology with various people for decades, and, occassionally I hear a view I haven't heard before.

Ditto. This is just a conversation, however--not a contest. I was just sharing my view. You can take it or leave it, consider it or insult it. You have to face God for how you deal with things--not me.

I understand the assertion, that because John saw 7 angels blow trumpets after seeing 7 seals opened doesn't mean that the trumpets are sounded after the seals are opened.

I don't understand that. It doesn't correlate with what I've stated. I see the paraphernalia of the vision as a series of visions and symbols, each of which John saw in turn. John said, "I saw this." And then he said, "I then saw this."

The fact he said he saw one vision after the first vision does not indicate a timeframe for the events he was seeing, one after another. He was just indicating, in his own time frame, the order in which he saw the visions--not the events they represented.

He saw one vision. And then he saw another vision. In saying, "next I saw," he was *not* saying that the next corresponding event was to take place in the immediately following time frame. He only saw the next vision immediately after the first vision.

This isn't easy for me to say. So I hope you have it? Apocalyptic Literature has its own language. And Christians should read between the poetic lines and fine the moral values.

That is not hard to do even if we don't understand all of the symbolism. And we certainly don't have to know any more than a general time frame. The basic time frame is 3.5 years. But we don't actually get any kind of timeline.

To say this is all chronological because John saw one vision after another is an argument from silence. Even worse, from looking at all the visions I'd have to conclude it's illogical.

There are prolepses and flashbacks, and repeats of the same events. These cannot be chronological in time, even if John saw one after another.

The order he saw them in does not at all indicate a strict chronology, although I understand why people would do this. There is a narrative that progresses from before Christ comes to after he comes, from the beginning of Antichrist's reign to the end of his reign.

It's just that there is no detailed timeline--none at all. It would be a mistake to add one if it isn't there! And I don't have to prove something's not there when it's not there!

Some consider the seals and trumpets and bowls to be 3 ways each of describing 7 judgments. Some consider their timelines to be interwoven. This is for those who take a literal future fulfillment approach, so it leaves out the amils and preterists.

There's no time lines at all!! A time line putting all of these visions in chronological order *is not there!* You can't "interweave" what is not there at all! In fact, I suggest that some of the many visions have their own independent time line. The vision may fit into the overall narrative--but each independent time line may not!

Personally, I find a great deal of detail which not only tells me the framework of how all these things are happening, but that also harmonize with OT and NT end times prophecies. It all paints the same picture, ending, with a most literal fulfillment as the valley in the mount of olives slams shut on the antichrist armies, and Jesus rescues His people.

That's the mistake, I think, that most Christians make with these prophecies. They try to make them all fit into a time line with one another. Of course, some of this would be legit--there has to be some kind of time line in history. But for the most part, it can all be summed up in: "it is not for you to know times and seasons, which the Father Himself has set."

If you have some Scriptural reason for these things to be occurring in something other than the apparent order of the vision, I'm interested to see it.

As I've been saying, the order of the visions, as John saw them, does *not* indicate a time line! Why would you even assume one is there when these are numerous visions, some of them with their own little narrative? It's like trying to fit 4 or 5 small stories together as if they were all one book, and try to line up the timeline of each small story to correspond to the others. Impossible!

I find that there are narrative portions related to to a mid-point, and other paranthetical portions which also reference the mid-point. Again, it seems pretty simple to me, to just follow along as I read.

What is the reason, say, that the sounding of the trumpets DON'T follow the opening of the seals? What Scripture will show that?
Much love!

The Scriptures obviously show the 7 Trumpets being enabled by the opening of the 7th Seal. That is, the 7th Seal opens up the 7 Trumpets. This is the timeline in which John was watching these visions unfold.

It was not a timeline for events represented by the 7 Seals and the 7 Trumpets! The 7th Seal represented, to me, the completion of the opening of the scroll, representing history in the present age.

In the 6th Seal you see the Day of Christ's Wrath arriving, which of course is not a time line. If it was, the 6th Seal would be the end of the Scroll. Rather, it is a vision telling John to anticipate the 7th Seal, representing that very event, the arrival of the Day of the Lord.

It's pure craziness to see the symbols this way, as if they each represent separate events in a time line! The 6th Seal isn't even an event, but an announcement of what John is to see in the 7th Seal.

So the 7 Trumpets represented the culminating acts of judgment that lead to God establishing His Kingdom on earth. Again, no time line--only a presentation of a set of judgments which likely happen pretty much at the same time.

There is no attempt to fit dates to each trumpet. They just represent different levels of judgment that likely happen pretty much at the same time.

The 7 Trumpets are 7 not to indicate a chronological sequence of events, but rather, to express a complete set of judgments that allow for the coming of Christ's Kingdom. They are blown one at a time not to indicate a timeline for corresponding events to happen, one after another. Rather, they are blown one at a time to reveal, progressively, the scope of this great judgment in parts, to clarify the comprehensive nature of the judgment.

 

[Truther]

All this crap you're saying here is just as Satan calls God a liar and says a person doesn't die you and others who agree with what you said here agree with Satan. But you are saying Jesus didn't die too. So you and the others continue siding with Satan who says a person doesn't die and see how far that gets you. Satan is going to be destroyed and if you and others who agree with Satan and continue to say a person doesn't die will be destroyed. So you and others continue saying a person doesn't die.

Calm down, Barney.

Death in the natural is only physical, not spiritual.

Just like sleep in the natural is not sleep in the spirit world.

Jesus is the firstborn of the resurrection, meaning the millions upon millions of saints will all follow our "last Adam" to our resurrection.

Abandon the Watchtower immediately, Barney.

Also, satan will burn and feel the flames forever and ever.

I call that destruction.