Is pre-tribulation rapture a doctrine of demons?

[Truther]

Did you know that all the persons who have lived since Adam and Eve have died and are still dead and that they are only in the memory of God and won't exist again until the resurrection?

They still exist and await resurrection into a new body.....


22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

They still exist and await resurrection into a new body.....


22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Those who will get a resurrection God simply remembers them. When the time comes to resurrect them back to life then he will. Until then God simply remembers them. Man isn't a Spirit. The soul that is sinning dies. The soul is the person, so when the soul dies the person dies. We are all born in sin and will die once. Any person who says they don't grow old and die like any other human/person on earth is either ignorant or lying to themselves.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I completely disagree.

Revelation 8
1) And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2) And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
3) And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4) And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
5) And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
6) And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Again, as I read this as a prophetic narrative, a foretelling of what will be, it's laid out simply, almost like bullet points.

I believe this is not the actual history that the vision represents. You are just watching a symbolic acting out of events yet to be with the symbolic representations showing the gravity and the importance of the matter.

You apparently believe this is a taped clip from an actual future occurrence, replete with censers, trumpets, etc.? I personally believe they are just symbolic representations--not the actual history. It's no wonder you believe that the time frame of these symbolic acts are actual timelines--you think it is actual history!

I don't think there is going to be an actual silence in heaven for half an hour in the future. I think there was only a half hour of silence *in the vision!* The vision is showing, symbolically, the importance of the events about to transpire, as symbolized in these visions. But the visions merely represented the actual history--they were *not* the actual history!

Is heaven actually concerned and "holding their tongue" for a time, recognizing the gravity of these events about to unfold? Of course. The vision accurately portrays how heaven views these events that are about to unfold. Perhaps they actually did keep silence in heaven for half an hour in John's vision. But the purpose is to portray the events about to unfold, and not to show that in the future they will hold their tongue once again!

And when he had opened the 7th seal, silence for 1/2 hour.
And 7 angels are given 7 trumpets.
And another angel cast his censer.
And the 7 angels prepared to sound.

If there is a sequence given, I assert it is this very sequence. The conjoining words show this to me.

If there is another sequence, what is it? Where is it?

Perhaps there will be an actual period of silence in the future. But silence in heaven hardly has any impact for us on the earth. It just portrays how heaven views the events about to transpire. How this is portrayed, symbolically, is not how the events they represent will actually occur!

There is indeed a timeframe for the symbolic portrayal of events yet to come. Yet this symbolic representation is *not* the actual history that will be. So the time sequence of the "representation" and the time sequence of the actual events will be different.

Imagine if I wanted to show you that WW3 is about to take place. And so, I give you a symbolic vision to present various facets of this great war in a graphic way. I begin by showing you 7 trumpets blowing, with each trumpet showing a different facet of the destruction in the war that will happen. The 1st trumpet blows, and there are huge craters in the earth. Another trumpet blows, and there are clouds of smoke rising from the earth. A 3rd trumpet blows, and the sky turns dark. A 4th trumpet blows, and dead bodies are seeing strewn about everywhere.

I should not think that the 7 trumpets blowing is the actual history. Rather, they are presenting different pictures of the same time frame to show the gravity and the extent of the damage. You are confusing, I believe, the symbols with the events they seek to portray!

What goes on in heaven is being showing through the use of symbols. A symbolic representation of what goes on in heaven does not show us an exact chronology of what will go on on earth! 7 trumpets blowing in heaven will not show us an equivalent time frame in which men on earth blow 7 trumpets!

Let's look as another example.

Revelation 11:3-14
3) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4) These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5) And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6) These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7) And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Power is given to God's 2 witnesses for 1260 days, or, 3.5 years of 360 days, or, 42 months of 30 days. During that time no one can harm them.

Revelation 13:4-7
4) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5) And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6) And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7) And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The dragon receives power for 42 months to overcome the holy ones.

Ergo,

The 2 witnesses prophecy for 42 months, untouchable, then, the beast receives power 42 months, and overcomes them. So we can know the 2 witnesses prophecy the first half of the week, the beast receives power the second half.

Much love!

I already admitted that there is a basic focus on a literal 3.5 years period in which the Beast reigns. This has nothing to do with trying to line up all of the visions in chronological fashion. I'm not saying there are no time elements at all! Rather, I'm saying we shouldn't confuse the sequence of visions with a timeline of the events in the order that they are mentioned. If you have different visions, then you will have different time frames. You may have different visions displaying the same events in different ways--not duplicate events taking place one after another!

If you have flashbacks and prolepses, then they don't fit into the supposed chronological sequence in the list of visions, one after another. Many, and not just a few, of the visions have this prolepsis-like feel to it, discouraging any attempt to make this about a timeline. All we have basically is the 1260 day period in which the Beast seems indestructible. But that period soon comes to an end. We have no exact dates for a reason. We prepare by living godly lives, and not by anticipating dates and times.

 

[Randy Kluth]

How would you ever know?

I'm saying, that if the Scriptures themself tell us about timing, that's what it tells us.

Revelation 6:1-14
1) And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2) And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
3) And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4) And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
5) And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
6) And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
7) And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8) And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
9) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10) And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Let's start simple.

Does this passage show seals opened one after another, or is there some other sequence?

Could Jesus be actually opening the 5th seal, and then the 2nd seal, and then the 4th seal, for instance? I've heard people suggest views like that.

I would read it as, first the 1st seal, then the 2nd, then the 3rd, like that, because this is the apparent prophetic narrative. The mere numbering of the seals sets them in the sequence of that numbering.

Would you agree with this?

Much love!

I'm answering this elsewhere. In a nutshell, I do not equate the symbolic representations that goes on in heaven with an actual chronology of events that go on on the earth. Blowing 7 trumpets in heaven is a heavenly statement given in symbolic terms. The events they represent on earth will not correspond, in time, to a sequence of 7 trumpets blowing.

 

[Randy Kluth]

That is a rather bold statement based upon nothing but your opinion. Evidently you have swallowed all the negative propaganda hook, line, and sinker. Since the Lord Jesus Christ Himself revealed the Pre-Tribulation Rapture to His apostles, one could definitely say that it was not only inspired by God, but was a part of God's plan of salvation from the very beginning.

I did not actually buy into any propaganda with animosity towards Pretrib! That was your surmise! The truth is, my brother, back in perhaps 1972, convinced me to start memorizing Scriptures. So I memorized 2 Thessalonians, along with a couple other biblical letters. To my surprise, 2 Thessalonians taught a Postrib Rapture! At the time I had been Pretrib, and had heard nothing negative about it. I changed my view based on what the Apostle Paul taught in that letter, as I repeated it over and over again, to memorize it!

Think long and hard about that one, brother! I don't hate my brother Pretribbers--I was one. I still go to a Pretrib church in a Pretrib denomination. But I do know what I read, and I'm not going to doubt what I clearly read.

 

[Truther]

Those who will get a resurrection God simply remembers them. When the time comes to resurrect them back to life then he will. Until then God simply remembers them. Man isn't a Spirit. The soul that is sinning dies. The soul is the person, so when the soul dies the person dies. We are all born in sin and will die once. Any person who says they don't grow old and die like any other human/person on earth is either ignorant or lying to themselves.

Don't be silly, Barney.

The "spirits of just men made perfect" are right there with the invisible God, with the invisible Jesus, with the innumerable host of invisible angels and in the New Jerusalem city.... in the invisible realm.

Too bad your Watchtower magazine don't have artists to draw them too, huh?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Don't be silly, Barney.

The "spirits of just men made perfect" are right there with the invisible God, with the invisible Jesus, with the innumerable host of invisible angels and in the New Jerusalem city.... in the invisible realm.

Too bad your Watchtower magazine don't have artists to draw them too, huh?

Only 144000 will be bought from mankind and get a resurrection like Jesus and be immortal incorruptible spirit beings. The rest of mankind that will be resurrected which will number in the billions will be resurrected on paradise Earth.

 

[marks]

I personally believe they are just symbolic representations--not the actual history.

Is that how we see other prophecy fulfilled? Prophecies of Jesus' birth and life? Prophecies of judgments and wars?

I think prophecy is fulfilled literally. Jesus was actually born in Bethlehem, for instance.

Much love!

 

[Truther]

Only 144000 will be bought from mankind and get a resurrection like Jesus and be immortal incorruptible spirit beings. The rest of mankind that will be resurrected which will number in the billions will be resurrected on paradise Earth.

Nope.

The 144,000 are merely included in the 1st resurrection count.

They will be murdered by the antichrist system in the great tribulation period.

They are on earth prior to chapter 14, and in heaven by chapter 14.

They will be resurrected(given new bodies to reign in) in Rev 20, to be included in the bride of Christ in Rev 19.

At that point, all that have part in the 1st resurrection are given new bodies to reign with Christ for 1000 years.

This is when the spirits made perfect meet the slain to reign.

You need to put down the magazines and pick up your Bible more often, Barney.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Nope.

The 144,000 are merely included in the 1st resurrection count.

They will be murdered by the antichrist system in the great tribulation period.

They are on earth prior to chapter 14, and in heaven by chapter 14.

They will be resurrected(given new bodies to reign in) in Rev 20, to be included in the bride of Christ in Rev 19.

At that point, all that have part in the 1st resurrection are given new bodies to reign with Christ for 1000 years.

This is when the spirits made perfect meet the slain to reign.

You need to put down the magazines and pick up your Bible more often, Barney.

I disagree and you're interpreting the scriptures inaccurately.There is a few thousand on earth who are of the 144000, the rest are already resurrected into heaven. These 144000 are of the first resurrection.
Also, no matter how much I quote the scriptures, you're not going to agree with what the scriptures say, because you don't now. Genesis 2: 7 kJV says- "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." You don't believe this scripture, if you did, you wouldn't be saying man has a soul, but instead be saying man is a soul. Genesis 2:7 does not say that God implanted in man an immortal soul. It means that when God’s power energized Adam’s body, he “became a living soul.” So man is a soul. He does not have a soul. God created Adam to live on earth, not in heaven. Earth was not to be a mere testing ground to see if Adam qualified for heaven. God formed the earth “to be inhabited,” and Adam was its first human inhabitant. (Isaiah 45:18; 1 Corinthians 15:45) Later, when God created Eve as a wife for Adam, God’s purpose for them was that they should populate the earth and turn it into a paradise as humankind’s eternal home.—Genesis 1:26-31; Psalm 37:29.

 

[Truther]

I disagree and you're interpreting the scriptures inaccurately.There is a few thousand on earth who are of the 144000, the rest are already resurrected into heaven. These 144000 are of the first resurrection.
Also, no matter how much I quote the scriptures, you're not going to agree with what the scriptures say, because you don't now. Genesis 2: 7 kJV says- "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." You don't believe this scripture, if you did, you wouldn't be saying man has a soul, but instead be saying man is a soul. Genesis 2:7 does not say that God implanted in man an immortal soul. It means that when God’s power energized Adam’s body, he “became a living soul.” So man is a soul. He does not have a soul. God created Adam to live on earth, not in heaven. Earth was not to be a mere testing ground to see if Adam qualified for heaven. God formed the earth “to be inhabited,” and Adam was its first human inhabitant. (Isaiah 45:18; 1 Corinthians 15:45) Later, when God created Eve as a wife for Adam, God’s purpose for them was that they should populate the earth and turn it into a paradise as humankind’s eternal home.—Genesis 1:26-31; Psalm 37:29.

Chapter 5...

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;


Chapter 7...


7 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;



Chapter 19....


6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.


Chapter 20....


4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.



Which is a whole lot more than 144,000, Barney.

Watchtower's adding machine must be made by Dominion.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Is that how we see other prophecy fulfilled? Prophecies of Jesus' birth and life? Prophecies of judgments and wars?

I think prophecy is fulfilled literally. Jesus was actually born in Bethlehem, for instance.

Much love!

Some prophecies were foretold in advance through the use of obscure intimations or symbolic representations. For example, the serpent would bruise the man's heel. How obscure is that? "A young woman shall have a child." How obscure is that? The prophecies of Christ, before his coming, were so obscure that most Jews found it difficult to apply them to Jesus unless they were drawn, initially, by his spirituality.

God did it that way. Jesus gave parables so that those inclined towards the truth would understand them. That's how the book of Revelation was written, using a lot of symbolism. It spoke to those so inclined to the truths about Jesus. It isn't a literal timeline of history. Rather, it appeals to those of faith.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Will You Be Caught Away to Heaven?

MANY people believe that they will go to heaven when they die. But some think that they will be caught away to heaven in what is called the rapture.
Those who believe in the rapture say the rapture is the church being united with Christ at his second coming. There are varied views
of the rapture.
The Bible shows that before the start of Christ’s promised Thousand Year Reign, there will be a period called the “great tribulation.” Jesus said: “Then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.” (Matthew 24:21; Revelation 20:6)
Some place the rapture ahead of the great tribulation. Others expect it during that time. Still others think that the rapture will come after the great tribulation.
God’s inspired Word, the Bible, is the standard by which we need to measure the truthfulness of all beliefs. (2 Timothy 1:13; 3:16, 17) So, what does it say about the rapture?
The Bible clearly shows that “the sign of the Son of man” will appear in heaven and that Jesus will come “on the clouds of heaven.” (Matt. 24:30) Both of these expressions imply invisibility. Additionally, the Bible says, “flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom.” So those who will be taken to heaven will first need to be “changed, in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet.” (Read 1 Corinthians 15:50-53.) Therefore, while we do not use the term “rapture” here because of its wrong connotation, the remaining faithful anointed will be gathered together in an instant of time.
Those who believe in the rapture cite the apostle Paul’s words at 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Paul wrote:
“Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant concerning those who are sleeping in death; that you may not sorrow just as the rest also do who have no hope. For if our faith is that Jesus died and rose again, so, too, those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus God will bring with him. For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with the Lord. Consequently keep comforting one another with these words.”—1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.
While confirming that faithful Christians then dead would be resurrected, Paul also said: “The living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death.” (Verse 15) Noteworthy, is the apostle’s reference to the Lord’s “presence.” Here the original-language text uses the Greek word pa·rou·siʹan, which literally means “being alongside.”
When a foreign head of State visits a country, the dates of his presence there are generally announced. This has been true of the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ. So by saying that certain Christians living during the Lord’s presence would be “caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air,” Paul meant that those survivors would be meeting Christ, not in earth’s atmosphere, but in the invisible heavenly realm where Jesus sits at God’s right hand.Hebrews 1:1-3
The Scriptures say much about fleshly Israelites and also speak of the spiritual “Israel of God.” Jewish and Gentile believers were to make up the full number of this group anointed by God’s holy spirit, or active force. (Galatians 6:16; Romans 11:25, 26; 1 John 2:20, 27) The book of Revelation shows that the total number of spiritual Israel is 144,000. Along with Christ, they would be kings and priests in heaven. (Revelation 7:1-8; 14:1-4; 20:6)
Before any faithful members of spiritual Israel could receive a heavenly reward, they would have to share a certain experience. Just as Jesus’ death on the torture stake preceded his resurrection to life in the heavens, so Christians with the heavenly hope must die before receiving their reward. (1 Corinthians 15:35, 36) That would be true of members of spiritual Israel living in the first century C.E. and of such individuals alive today.
After mentioning “the presence of the Lord,” Paul pointed to the time when faithful spiritual Israelites who had died would receive their heavenly reward. He wrote: “The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.” (Verse 16) Therefore, once Jesus’ presence as King began, we would expect the heavenly resurrection to start, commencing with those of spiritual Israel who had already died as integrity keepers. (1 Corinthians 15:23) They now serve alongside Jesus in heaven. But what of the comparatively few anointed Christians still living on the earth? Do they await the rapture?
After referring to anointed Christians who had died, Paul added: “Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with the Lord.” (Verse 17) “The living” would be those alive during Christ’s presence. They would be “caught away” to meet the Lord Jesus. As in the case of faithful early Christians, death as a human is necessary for them to be united with Christ in heaven.—Romans 8:17, 35-39.
In writing to Christians in Corinth, Paul stated: “This I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption. Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep in death, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” (1 Corinthians 15:50-52) Upon dying in faithfulness during Christ’s presence, each one of the remnant of spiritual Israel instantaneously receives his heavenly reward. “In the twinkling of an eye,” he is resurrected as a spirit creature and “caught away” to meet Jesus and to serve as a coruler in the Kingdom of the heavens. But what about all others worshiping Jehovah? Paul warned: “As for the times and the seasons, brothers, you need nothing to be written to you. For you yourselves know quite well that Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night. Whenever it is that they are saying: ‘Peace and security!’ then sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them just as the pang of distress upon a pregnant woman; and they will by no means escape.” (1 Thessalonians 5:1-3) Alert Christians will escape. How?
The cry “Peace and security!” is a precursor of the period Jesus called the “great tribulation.” Describing “a great crowd” of faithful ones who have the hope of living eternally in an earthly paradise, the book of Revelation says: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” (Revelation 7:9, 14; Luke 23:43) No, theirs is not the prospect of a rapture. Rather, they have the hope of survival right here on the earth. To prepare for it, they must remain spiritually awake. How can you do this and survive the end of this system?
You need to ‘keep your senses and have on the breastplate of faith and love and as a helmet the hope of salvation.’ (1 Thessalonians 5:6-8)
For obedient mankind in general, the true Scriptural hope is not a rapture. Instead, it is eternal life on earth under the rule of God’s Kingdom.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

That was John Darby's idea, back in the 1830's in Great Britain. You ought to research the pre-trib rapture theory from men, because he and others in Britain in the 1830's were the first ones to preach a pre-trib rapture theory in a Church. Before that, for over 1800 years, the Christian Church believed in a post-trib coming of Christ Jesus. And per Zechariah 14, Christ's feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, ON EARTH, when He comes with His saints, as written there. That means Darby went directly against... the Scriptures with his theory.

I don't have to study Darby. I just listen to Jesus!

Jesus said He is going to prepare a place for us. where did Jesus go when He ascended?--Heaven! He said in HIs Father house there are many rooms. where is the Fathers house? heaven! Jesus said if He goes. Where did He go? Heaven! He will come again and receive us to HImself. That where He is we will be also! where is He? heaven!

For over 1800 years teh church also has believed in teh perpetual virginity of Mary, purgatory and that people can lose their salvation due ot sins. Those are wrong also even though these thoughts have been around for a long time. time does not make doctrine right! Conforming to Scripture makes it right!

Boy, how you pre-trib folks love to quote that John 14 Scripture when you don't even understand it!

When Jesus said He will "come again", how is that written of in the rest of His Word? I just showed you, from Zechariah 14 on the "day of the Lord". Acts 1 is another witness that He will come 'in like manner' as His disciples saw Him go into Heaven.

And even the 1 Thess.4 Scripture, you don't understand, because Paul says there Jesus does the gathering of His saints when He DESCENDS FROM HEAVEN.

So let's see, Jesus DESCENDS bringing the asleep saints with Him when He comes...

Then the saints still alive on earth are "caught up" to Him and them in the "air", which is actually pointing to their being changed at the twinkling of an eye on the "last trump" Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15:50-51...

And then Jesus takes His Church with Him to the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and His feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives!

Well I didn't know you were appointed the Papal authority of understanding John 14! It seems really clear to me. Jesus wasn't some HInduy mystic speaking in code.

As for not understanding Gods Word? Let us look how you misunderstand the Thess. passage.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

YOu say teh dead rise first. I agree! then YOU say that the living saints get snatched up some years later- there is no warrant for that in the language.

Then in verse 17 is an adverb. It must match the verb it is connected to- which is "are alive" which is the present active participle. If you want that written out in drawn out english...... the dead in Christ shall rise first, then after that we which are living and remain shall also be caught up together with them. If Paul inteneded to say that these events are not happening one after the other, then he would have used a constructfor the verb of a perfect indefinite style instead of the present actrive. sorry but mans thoughts you toss out just don't match the SCriptures.

And Zech 14 has nothing about the saints fighting

YOU also falsely assume that when Jesus descends from heaven to the heaven that it is the 2nd Coming. You force that on the passage when it doesn't appear there at all! We meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord. NOthing about after He "picks us up" on His way back to earth!

You also seem to forget that in REv. 19 the Bride (the whole church) is in heaven and has made herself ready to get married!

Revelation 19:7-9
King James Version

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

If a chunk of the church is still on earth and waiting to be transformed and judged at the bema judgment in Corinth. to have its work judged before they are clean and robed in white, then the whole bride is not ready and that verse is wrong.

Verse 7 makes it clear "His Wife" is not most or nearly all has made herself readybut HIS WIFE (all teh church) is ready and in heaven.

Besides, the Day of the Lord (that whole time frame and not just one 24 hour day) is called teh wrath of God and God promised to deliver the church from the wrath to come. That cannot mean that we are protected during the tribulation, for SCripture makes clear that many many many saints are killed during the time of the wrath of teh Lamb.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Do you care what the scriptures say? The scriptures don't say we have souls, the scriptures say we are souls, do you understand the difference? You and others can say that a person doesn't die, but they do. Those who believe that death is just a doorway to another plain of existence are those who don't believe a person dies. You are calling God a liar just as the serpent did when it told Eve she wouldn't die.

No, that is what the Watchtower has told you that you have to believe that!

And all your huffing and puffing defending Charles Taze Russels teaching (which came from Origen and Arius) just means 0.

1. 2 Corinthians 5:6
   Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. 2 Corinthians 5:8
   We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Present active tense. so WHEN ONE IS ABSENT FROM THE BODY- THEY ARE PRESENT WITH THE Lord!
rREV. 19:
19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

This happens in heaven and happens before Jesus comes back to earth, which I know you are told to believe that occurred in 1914, though until 1930 teh Watchtower belieed it happened in 1874. (Judge Rutherfords book "prophecy" printed 1930)

But notice teh Bride of Christ is in heaven and a throng of people are shouting in heaven!

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Soma, pneuma, psuche! Wait a minute!!!!!!! didn't Paul know man doesn't have a soul but is a soul????? Thats right, the watchtower wasn't there yet to tell him what his own words meant!!!!

I know you are taught the Bible is an organizational book and only the organization can tell you what it means. that is what teh Roman church foisted upon people for centuries and that didn't work out to well either.

YOu must decide to believe what Gods Word actually says or what some man made organization is telling you what they think it means.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Do you care what the scriptures say? The scriptures don't say we have souls, the scriptures say we are souls, do you understand the difference? You and others can say that a person doesn't die, but they do. Those who believe that death is just a doorway to another plain of existence are those who don't believe a person dies. You are calling God a liar just as the serpent did when it told Eve she wouldn't die.

BTW: YOu wrote on your avatar that you are a Christian. Well the Watchtower says only the 144,000 are the bride class or Christians, so are you believing you are one of the 144,000?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The same player, Gog, a prince, like the prince of Persia or the prince of Greece. Gog is the prince of Magog, who appears at the end of this age, and at the end of the next, with people under him, the enemies of God, Magog.

Much love!

YOu just can't retranslate Magog to fit your concepts. REad Ezekiel 38&39 and compare it with REv. 20. They are not even similar! To try to fit both together does grave injustice to Gods Word.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Paul writing doctrine:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-14
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed

Paul expressing desire, not doctrine:

Philippians 1:23
For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

All souls indeed sleep until this:

John 5:28-29
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

And I am not part of Jehovah’s Witnesses or any other cult.

This is what the Bible teaches.

Immediate occupancy in heaven of the saints upon death is one of the many false doctrines in main stream “Christianity”.

 

[Truther]

Paul writing doctrine:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-14
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed

Paul expressing desire, not doctrine:

Philippians 1:23
For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

All souls indeed sleep until this:

John 5:28-29
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

And I am not part of Jehovah’s Witnesses or any other cult.

This is what the Bible teaches.

Immediate occupancy in heaven of the saints upon death is one of the many false doctrines in main stream “Christianity”.

Prior to the completion of the 1st resurrection in chapter 20, the sleeping saints are incredibly active in the book of Rev.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Prior to the completion of the 1st resurrection in chapter 20, the sleeping saints are incredibly active in the book of Rev.

This was not prior to the coming of Christ.

Those mentioned in Revelation 20:4 are those who were beheaded (who were asleep - see Revelation 6:11) and those who were alive at Christ’s coming.

Those in Revelation 20:5 are those who died prior to the beasts’ coming. They will not be raised up until after Christ’s 1,000 year reign on earth.