Is it possible to be SCRIPTURALLY CORRECT AND NOT BE SPIRITUALLY CORRECT?

[ScottA]

Thank you.

I know of no instance in the Bible where the Lord commands women to be subservient to men, and it makes no sense to me that they should be.

And this is the great error of men, who within the biblical context of the Head and body, and bride and Groom, given to them--do not so much as see it, let alone practice or understand it--in an act of rejection of Him who gave it, saying, "follow Me."

 

[ScottA]

What people obey is what they worship. It is the Bible some obey. Shouldn't it be God that they obey?

God and His Word are One.

 

[JohnDB]

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The Bible tells us those are Paul's writings, but it doesn't say Paul is infallible.

I don’t think Paul is infallible (for what it’s worth). It’s the Spirit of Christ speaking in Paul that I think is infallible, 2 Corinthians 13:8-9 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth. [9] For we are glad, when we are weak, and you are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.

I think (again for what it’s worth) me as a woman who thought being “the weaker vessel” is a shame. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been told women are “the weaker vessel” as a boast and a condemnation of what is kept beneath. I keep engaging here, not because I think I’ll change your mind about the Spirit of Christ speaking in Paul …but to let you know what opened my mind the most to “the weaker vessel”. It is how many times Paul referred to himself, as a male being the woman “the weaker vessel”. It was Paul’s writing that showed me being the weaker vessel is not to be used to destroy but to edify “for when I am weak, then I am strong.” It was Paul as a male where I saw “the weaker vessel” is not a gender thing but instead “we carry this treasure in a weak vessel, so that the power is of God and not of men.”

I’d hate to throw out a brother like Paul, whom I don’t think used “let the women be silent” as a gender thing, except for those who lust to have it so for their own power, their own authority, and for their own glory. Just like 1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
^do you see “let the women keep silent in the church” taking the wise in their own craftiness?

I agree with you where you keep saying, “then let the women keep silent in the church.” If that is what it means to you. But I think you have the wrong one who perverts it.
2 Peter 3:16-18 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

 

[ScottA]

Bob, by his unbelief has in effect derailed the original purpose of the thread, which was to alert us to the certainty of our own error of misunderstanding the scriptures and failing to see the actual truth as Israel did before us.

But to put this rabbit trail to an end, it should be known that Yes, God engineered those historic events causing Paul to respond with authorative words for that particular circumstance, and it was God also who saw fit to include it by example into His eternal Word referring rather to the Church as being female in its relationship with Christ, as Bride.

NOW...WOULD ANYONE LIKE TO GET BACK ON TRACK WITH OUR OWN HISTORIC NEED OF NOT MAKING THE SAME MISTAKE AS ISRAEL?

 

[Bob Estey]

I don’t think Paul is infallible (for what it’s worth). It’s the Spirit of Christ speaking in Paul that I think is infallible, 2 Corinthians 13:8-9 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth. [9] For we are glad, when we are weak, and you are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.

I think (again for what it’s worth) me as a woman who thought being “the weaker vessel” is a shame. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been told women are “the weaker vessel” as a boast and a condemnation of what is kept beneath. I keep engaging here, not because I think I’ll change your mind about the Spirit of Christ speaking in Paul …but to let you know what opened my mind the most to “the weaker vessel”. It is how many times Paul referred to himself, as a male being the woman “the weaker vessel”. It was Paul’s writing that showed me being the weaker vessel is not to be used to destroy but to edify “for when I am weak, then I am strong.” It was Paul as a male where I saw “the weaker vessel” is not a gender thing but instead “we carry this treasure in a weak vessel, so that the power is of God and not of men.”

I’d hate to throw out a brother like Paul, whom I don’t think used “let the women be silent” as a gender thing, except for those who lust to have it so for their own power, their own authority, and for their own glory. Just like 1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
^do you see “let the women keep silent in the church” taking the wise in their own craftiness?

I agree with you where you keep saying, “then let the women keep silent in the church.” If that is what it means to you. But I think you have the wrong one who perverts it.
2 Peter 3:16-18 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

I would still say that what you obey is what you worship. If it's the Bible you obey, then that is what you worship. I think it is God we are meant to obey.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I would still say that what you obey is what you worship. If it's the Bible you obey, then that is what you worship. I think it is God we are meant to obey.

Me too. I agree. But (it seems like) you are assuming I worship the bible. My husband asks me often is there not a time to put away the bible? But my thoughts on this is when I use to read the bible without His Spirit, it wasn’t Him speaking but men. If I read it with the help of His Spirit, then why wouldn’t I want to hear His Spirit? This may not make sense but if someone gave unto me a letter and I didn’t know them, it wouldn’t be dear unto me but written by someone I don’t know. Why would I care what someone I don’t know has to say? If someone I know (grown to Love)wrote a letter though, why would I not take extra care in what they have to say? I don’t think that is worshipping the letter written, but interest in the writer or author of that letter.

For example, another similar to “let the women be silent in the church” is bishops and 1 Timothy 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

What I hear men say is “the husbands of one wife”
What I hear the Spirit say is “you can’t serve two masters.” Paul (Christ speaking in Paul) was the husband of One wife…that body joined to Christ which belongs unto God. Which is called no adulterer.

 

[JohnDB]

Me too. I agree. But (it seems like) you are assuming I worship the bible. My husband asks me often is there not a time to put away the bible? But my thoughts on this is when I use to read the bible without His Spirit, it wasn’t Him speaking but men. If I read it with the help of His Spirit, then why wouldn’t I want to hear His Spirit? This may not make sense but if someone gave unto me a letter and I didn’t know them, it wouldn’t be dear unto me but written by someone I don’t know. Why would I care what someone I don’t know has to say? If someone I know (grown to Love)wrote a letter though, why would I not take extra care in what they have to say? I don’t think that is worshipping the letter written, but interest in the writer or author of that letter.

For example, another similar to “let the women be silent in the church” is bishops and 1 Timothy 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

What I hear men say is “the husbands of one wife”
What I hear the Spirit say is “you can’t serve two masters.” Paul (Christ speaking in Paul) was the husband of One wife…that body joined to Christ which belongs unto God. Which is called no adulterer.

This "husband of one wife" has been misinterpreted for decades.

Paul was Jewish....so was Timothy and Titus. (Where he said the same thing)

Timothy was in Ephesus and Titus in Crete. Both of these cities are obviously Greek/Roman.

Now according to Jewish practice and customs polygamy was not only allowed but mandated in certain situations.

The Romans considered polygamy completely disgusting.....
BUT
Your average wealthy Roman man had a wife they married for Social or business status and clout....and also had a "consort" that he tended to love more than his wife. Consorts had social status in the ancient world....their children were not heirs unless their patron adopted them. The Consorts were provided for financially by their patron....how well was based usually by how wealthy he was. Occasionally the consort would live in the same house as the wife.

However, much to the ire of the Greek/Romans Paul referred to the Consorts as wives. (Mostly because Paul was a smart alek) But because he was writing a pastoral letter to friends he knew personally, Paul spoke his mind fully and completely on the subject.

 

[Bob Estey]

Me too. I agree. But (it seems like) you are assuming I worship the bible. My husband asks me often is there not a time to put away the bible? But my thoughts on this is when I use to read the bible without His Spirit, it wasn’t Him speaking but men. If I read it with the help of His Spirit, then why wouldn’t I want to hear His Spirit? This may not make sense but if someone gave unto me a letter and I didn’t know them, it wouldn’t be dear unto me but written by someone I don’t know. Why would I care what someone I don’t know has to say? If someone I know (grown to Love)wrote a letter though, why would I not take extra care in what they have to say? I don’t think that is worshipping the letter written, but interest in the writer or author of that letter.

For example, another similar to “let the women be silent in the church” is bishops and 1 Timothy 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

What I hear men say is “the husbands of one wife”
What I hear the Spirit say is “you can’t serve two masters.” Paul (Christ speaking in Paul) was the husband of One wife…that body joined to Christ which belongs unto God. Which is called no adulterer.

I think the Bible is a wonderful book. Jesus and God are frequently quoted, and there's lots, lots more.

I do think Paul was mistaken when he said women can't speak when they are in a church. I also question his remark that we are to obey our political leaders. (Remember when Hitler was having all the Jews killed?)

 

[ScottA]

I would still say that what you obey is what you worship. If it's the Bible you obey, then that is what you worship. I think it is God we are meant to obey.

---

OKAY BOB...ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. I'm going ask you ONCE to stop derailing the thread, then I'm going to report you. If you want to go on and on about something off topic, start another thread.

Meanwhile, thank you, you have shown exactly why those causing a disturbance should be told to be silent.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

This "husband of one wife" has been misinterpreted for decades.

Paul was Jewish....so was Timothy and Titus. (Where he said the same thing)

Timothy was in Ephesus and Titus in Crete. Both of these cities are obviously Greek/Roman.

Now according to Jewish practice and customs polygamy was not only allowed but mandated in certain situations.

The Romans considered polygamy completely disgusting.....
BUT
Your average wealthy Roman man had a wife they married for Social or business status and clout....and also had a "consort" that he tended to love more than his wife. Consorts had social status in the ancient world....their children were not heirs unless their patron adopted them. The Consorts were provided for financially by their patron....how well was based usually by how wealthy he was. Occasionally the consort would live in the same house as the wife.

However, much to the ire of the Greek/Romans Paul referred to the Consorts as wives. (Mostly because Paul was a smart alek) But because he was writing a pastoral letter to friends he knew personally, Paul spoke his mind fully and completely on the subject.

To me “the husband of one wife” is you can’t serve two women. Galatians 5:3-7 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. [4] Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; you are fallen from grace. [5] For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. [6] For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. [7] Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

You can’t serve the adulterous woman who says she is no widow, and has lost nothing. She wipes her mouth saying “I have done nothing wrong.” Her way leads to death. You can’t serve that “wife” and also serve the Free Woman whom is above and Free. You can’t serve That woman still bound to the law of her husband, where sin does yet work death. Even if —as Paul made himself weak to those under the woman whose way leads to death, still it was being made weak to save those from death. Even that is serving One body, One wife —who it is granted unto Her: Revelation 19:7-8 Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; [8] it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure"- for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.

To me that takes it beyond mens power to boast “look here” I am a man with one wife and my children obey me. it is Spiritual having “one body” whom that “one body” edifying itself in love, that one body in subjection, joined to One Head which is Christ.

Only Christ is the Husband of One Wife, bearing (increasing)(raising, lifting up) children which obey God. Acts 17:28
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
^say it’s not so.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I think the Bible is a wonderful book. Jesus and God are frequently quoted, and there's lots, lots more.

I do think Paul was mistaken when he said women can't speak when they are in a church. I also question his remark that we are to obey our political leaders. (Remember when Hitler was having all the Jews killed?)

We could go around all day. I get your persuaded. That is pretty clear. For me I have to look at the Fruit. There is no doubt for me that (Christ in) Paul bears the Fruit of the Spirit of God. Not Saul’s words or ways, but (Christ in) Paul speaks of better things to come. We are told to test the Fruit.

My husband and I were talking about this the other morning. We were talking about the pope who claims to be infallible and to speak on God’s behalf (if I understand that correctly). I have to witness the fruit and what fruit is it of? If I have ever witnessed someone who was a man with infirmities, whom even in weakness, I should be persuaded the Spirit of Christ speaks in him…it would be Paul. The Fruit of Jesus Christ abounds. It’s not something I see today, so yes, something I read about. But Paul where —if any man be in Christ old things have passed away, all things have become New. I have to be persuaded by the Fruit of God. That is nothing to sneer at. It’s a miracle the transformation having Passed from Saul(death) unto Paul(Christ resurrected from the dead, Lives in me)…where Paul speaks continuously on edification and perfecting of the body. It is hopeful, to me. I don’t think Paul confused for one second “let the women be silent.”<not after being taught of The Revelation of Jesus Christ. It is men (not taught of God) in service to their own lust and ways that confuse those words and make those words(unto their own destruction) profit the carnal mind, which will come to nothing in the end.

 

[Bob Estey]

We could go around all day. I get your persuaded. That is pretty clear. For me I have to look at the Fruit. There is no doubt for me that (Christ in) Paul bears the Fruit of the Spirit of God. Not Saul’s words or ways, but (Christ in) Paul speaks of better things to come. We are told to test the Fruit.

My husband and I were talking about this the other morning. We were talking about the pope who claims to be infallible and to speak on God’s behalf (if I understand that correctly). I have to witness the fruit and what fruit is it of? If I have ever witnessed someone who was a man with infirmities, whom even in weakness, I should be persuaded the Spirit of Christ speaks in him…it would be Paul. The Fruit of Jesus Christ abounds. It’s not something I see today, so yes, something I read about. But Paul where —if any man be in Christ old things have passed away, all things have become New. I have to be persuaded by the Fruit of God. That is nothing to sneer at. It’s a miracle the transformation having Passed from Saul(death) unto Paul(Christ resurrected from the dead, Lives in me)…where Paul speaks continuously on edification and perfecting of the body. It is hopeful, to me. I don’t think Paul confused for one second “let the women be silent.”<not after being taught of The Revelation of Jesus Christ. It is men (not taught of God) in service to their own lust and ways that confuse those words and make those words(unto their own destruction) profit the carnal mind, which will come to nothing in the end.

I don't care for this particular pope, but I don't remember him claiming to be infallible.

I don't understand how we suddenly go from Paul telling women to be silent in churches, to lust.

Paul was a great man. I have learned from him.

 

[ScottA]

To me “the husband of one wife” is you can’t serve two women. Galatians 5:3-7 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. [4] Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; you are fallen from grace. [5] For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. [6] For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. [7] Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

You can’t serve the adulterous woman who says she is no widow, and has lost nothing. She wipes her mouth saying “I have done nothing wrong.” Her way leads to death. You can’t serve that “wife” and also serve the Free Woman whom is above and Free. You can’t serve That woman still bound to the law of her husband, where sin does yet work death. Even if —as Paul made himself weak to those under the woman whose way leads to death, still it was being made weak to save those from death. Even that is serving One body, One wife —who it is granted unto Her: Revelation 19:7-8 Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; [8] it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure"- for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.

To me that takes it beyond mens power to boast “look here” I am a man with one wife and my children obey me. it is Spiritual having “one body” whom that “one body” edifying itself in love, that one body in subjection, joined to One Head which is Christ.

Only Christ is the Husband of One Wife, bearing (increasing)(raising, lifting up) children which obey God. Acts 17:28
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
^say it’s not so.

The marriage of a man and women, is from the beginning, a parable and foreshadowing referred to by Jesus and Paul as a reunion of mankind with God (salvation) in Christ, where the Bride becomes "one"--as if one flesh, with the Groom.

But...can we try not to get off on other topics? Please stop. The focus should be on the OP issue of the Church looking to the second advent of Christ, being in a position to make the same mistake as the Priests and Pharisees of Jesus' time--thinking they knew everything, but completely failed to understand the scriptures regarding the the first advent of Christ? History is repeating itself, and we should not be so consumed with the details of countless issues to miss what is most important. We are like Mary and Martha, troubled about many things--but only "one thing is needed."

@Ronald Nolette

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Jesus is quoted over and over in the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

You did not answer my question. do you believe those two verses I cited are true or not?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I believe God made sure the Bible historians were accurate. It certainly was within his power to do so. Why would he do otherwise?

So why do you reject their teachings as coming from mere falloible men and not from gods servants.

What do you say to these verses.

Matthew 28:18-20

King James Version

​

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

why do you avoid recognizing all the bible as God INspired.

 

[Bob Estey]

You did not answer my question. do you believe those two verses I cited are true or not?

I think you can learn something from all scripture. That doesn't mean Paul didn't misspeak when he said women can't speak when they are in a church, or that you have to obey your government officials (such as an Adolf Hitler when he tells you to kill Jews).

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I think you can learn something from all scripture. That doesn't mean Paul didn't misspeak when he said women can't speak when they are in a church, or that you have to obey your government officials (such as an Adolf Hitler when he tells you to kill Jews).

And what is your proof Paul was wrong when he said that.

As for you comment on Adolf Hitler, if you had bothered to read the other Scriptures you would see that there is a caveat to obey governments- when they ask you to defy Scripture!

Sorry but you are acting out of feelings and opinions which places you in a dangerous place.

 

[Bob Estey]

So why do you reject their teachings as coming from mere falloible men and not from gods servants.

What do you say to these verses.

Matthew 28:18-20​

​

King James Version​

​

​

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

why do you avoid recognizing all the bible as God INspired.

Because maybe the Lord wanted us to think things through and make our own judgments.

 

[Bob Estey]

And what is your proof Paul was wrong when he said that.

As for you comment on Adolf Hitler, if you had bothered to read the other Scriptures you would see that there is a caveat to obey governments- when they ask you to defy Scripture!

Sorry but you are acting out of feelings and opinions which places you in a dangerous place.

Women do much of the work in our churches. How can they get anything done of they aren't allowed to speak?