Is it biblical for Jesus' followers to approve of the military practice?

[Selene]

You continually twist and pervert Jesus' love messages. so sad.

Say all you want, but it's right there in Scripture for all to see. God did send people to punish those who do wrong.

 

[meshak]

Say all you want, but it's right there in Scripture for all to see. God did send people to punish those who do wrong.

Jesus is sending love messages and you twisted it to militant savior. You need to repent.

 

[veteran]

Does Christ dwell in you, veteran? You are right that we are not Christ, there is only one, but does He dwell in you and will He be contrary to His nature and to His words to us?

That's the wrong ploy friend. Let's see you try and use that contrary to His nature baloney with explaining to us why He commanded His disciples in Luke 22 to go buy a sword!

Truly this is a difficult subject, I grant you that. I definitely would defend my family and others. Meshak is talking about military service and fighting this world's battles. Where does one draw the line? Because, when it comes to defending the defenseless, you could spend your whole lifetime fighting this world's wars in the name of Jesus Christ. In fact, the Church could become quite militaristic and fight Christians in other countries who are part of their country's army. Where does the madness end?

This is NOT a difficult subject at all! At least not for those in Christ Jesus who listen to Him and His Word. When the Roman soldier asked our Lord Jesus to heal his servant that was still back at his house, did our Lord Jesus rebuke that Roman for being a soldier? No. Did our Lord Jesus anywhere... rebuke even the concept of a standing army? NO!!! So obviously, someone has been telling fibs and making up lies about this!

And as far as earlier comparisons of soldiers blindly following their government's direction, whether it be just or unjust, God is able to deal with the unjust leaders who abuse their God-given authority over an army, which is one of the reasons why we have civilian leadership in supreme authority over our military, and not military leaders themselves. World history has actually seen... those judgments many times. So it's stupid to forget all that history just to push doctrines of disarmament and pacifist dogma that Christ's enemies use against His people. And they have... been pushing that dogma in the Churches, and had that devised plan many years ago in order to try and disarm Christ's people.

Do you feel the Church is not militaristic enough? Do you feel every Christian has an obligation to join the military? Do you give any leeway at all to those who out of conscience do not believe the Lord is leading them to kill others in the name of God?

Everyone whom God calls. And it's still obvious today He calls men and women to that service of their country. Surely you should be able to grasp that not everyone is called for that duty. Even when there was a military draft exceptions were made, so careful you don't make up a bunch falsehoods about it.

You're not one of those who mis-read God's commandment "Thou shalt not kill" (Exo.20:13) are you? The actual Hebrew meaning for "kill" there is about homicide, pre-meditated murder. In Matt.19:18 it is properly translated as "murder". Killing in self-defense is not the same act as "murder", so do you confuse that difference too? When animals are slaughtered for food, are they killed, or are they murdered? I can see it now, "Johnny, go fetch the law, Ben's out there murdering dem dang chickins' again!"

Pacifism is what Ghandi and Martin Luther King were all about. They rebelled against the authorities with protests, sit-ins, work stoppage, etc. This is pacifism. Pacifism "peacefully' undermines the government. This is not what Christ taught. Christ lived and taught Non-Resistance.

Please show me where the Early Church took up arms to fight against the Roman occupation of their homeland.

The "church" started fighting and using the arm of the flesh, with the advent of the Catholic church around the 4th century.

Axehead

And the administration after Ghandi provided for national defense, didn't they? Yep, starting in 1944 they even began devloping their nuclear program.

Our Lord Jesus did not say He came the first time to bring peace on the earth, but a sword. Did you miss that? This next time He returns, it won't be meek as Lamb to be slaughtered like His first coming. This next time He is coming with a SWORD, to CONQUER. Surely you haven't missed that from Revelation 19?

Why did king James of England have "Defender of The Faith" as one of His titles? What would have happened if the Christian kings of Europe had just allowed the Muslim armies that attacked Europe around 700 A.D. to come in and take over?

And as for the early Church under Roman authority, it was protected by many of the Roman leaders, it was not attacked by all the Roman emperors throughout its history. So the early Christians had no cause to rebel during much of the early Church's history in Rome. Even Apostle Paul when he was held prisoner in Rome was given a house and allowed to preach The Gospel to anyone who visited. And that was when Rome was still pagan. Ever heard of the 1st century Palatium Britannicum in Rome where the British royalty were captive?

You're also confused about the difference between Pacifism and peaceful demonstration. Per the U.S. Constitution, the people have the right to assembly. So public protests are legal as long as they are peaceful and don't break the law; doesn't mean someone is a pacifist by participating in a legal peaceful protest. Going armed during such an assembly is asking for trouble, and instead is a threat to the public peace, and rightfully seen as an open act of rebelion againt the people of the United States of America, which Martin Luther King was against also, and Malcom X too eventually. Yet neither proposed an end to national defense or a standing army.

I don't know what kind of faith you have, and for that matter I don't talk about your faith. If faith is synonymous with religious organization, then yes I am talking about your religious organization. The Early Church did not participate in armed resistance. That occurred after the beginning of your religious organization and one of your "fathers" (Augustine) postulated the theory of "Just War".


If you don't stop at Luke 22:36 and continue on with the conversation you will understand what Jesus' point was.

Luke 22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me,

*****And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.***** (Isa 53:12)

Luke 22:38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

Two swords were not nearly enough for any kind of reasonable defense don't you think? However, two swords were more than enough for Jesus to be "reckoned among the transgressors", and fulfill prophecy. And Peter, became the "transgressor" when he used his sword to cut off the servant of the high priest's ear.

In another place we see that Isa 53:12 was referenced when Jesus was buried between 2 criminals. But, the Holy Spirit through Luke obviously wanted that also noted when Jesus said 2 swords are enough.

When you take the whole counsel of God you get a fuller picture of what is happening, the "whys" and the "wherefores" become clearer.

This is why Jesus said get some swords and then stopped them at two. Did He not say that He could call 12 legions of angels to rescue Him? Then what was up with the swords? To fulfill scripture about Him from Isa 53:12.

Why didn't Jesus ever teach about self defense? Jesus certainly wasn't a Pacifist. He lived and taught Non-resistance which is onerous to the flesh. Pacifism is more like what Ghandi and MLK participated in. Protests, marches, work stoppages, etc. Jesus never taught "peaceful" rebellion to get your way. That is exactly what Pacifism is.

Christians who offer up no resistance to their persecutors are called Pacifists, but this is an incorrect labeling, term. It has become a derogatory term when used against Christians, a term akin to cowardice. There is a huge difference between the teachings of Pacifism and the teaching of Non-Resistance that Jesus taught.

Israel was occupied by an aggressive enemy and yet the Early Church never leaned on the arm of the flesh (as far as I can tell) to fight. Jesus said, "Don't fear the one that can kill the body but not he soul." Are the weapons of our warfare, carnal?

Looks like Augustine's treatise of "Just War", has permeated Protestantism.

Axehead

More hype for nothing.


Luke 22:35-38
35 And He said unto them, "When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing?" And they said, "Nothing."
36 Then said He unto them, "But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."


These next verses DO NOT CHANGE THE CONTEXT of the previous two verses of His command for them to go buy a sword...

37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in Me, 'And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning Me have an end.

The underlined part He quoted from Isaiah 53. The point is regardless of His command for them to go buy a sword, that which was written about His crucifixion still was necessary, so if anything, He was telling them to not fight for Him with those swords they had. That's also what the next verse points to...


38 And they said, "Lord, behold, here are two swords." And He said unto them, "It is enough."
(KJV)

That further SUPPORTS the idea of personal arms for self-defense, just what's needed to defend yourself and no more.

This idea has been applied within Christian society of the nations through its history. The nation's standing army would only be large enough to defend the people during an emergency. When conditions accelerated, then a draft was instituted because of a greater need for defense. When the conflict was over, the armies were reduced in peacetime.

 

[Guestman]

Did the 1st century Christians do military service, in view of Jesus words at Matthew 5, in which he said: "You heard that it was said, ' You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' However, I say to you: Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those persecuting you; that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens.......For if you love those loving you, what reward do you have ? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing ?.....You must accordingly be perfect (in love), as your heavenly Father is perfect (in love)" ? (Matt 5:43-48)

E. W. Barnes wrote that "a careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [121-180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier, and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service."(The Rise of Christianity, 1947, pg. 333)

C. J. Cadoux wrote that "it will be seen presently that the evidence of a single Christian soldier between 60 and about 165 A.D. is exceedingly slight....up to the reign of Marcus Aurelius at least, no Christian would become a soldier after his baptism."(The Early Church and the World, 1955, pg 275, 276) And in the book A Short History of Rome, it said that "in the second century, Christianity....had affirmed the incompatibility of military service with Christianity."(G. Ferrero and C. Barbagallo, 1919, pg 382)

At 2 Corinthians 10, the apostle Paul wrote: "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare ("we do not wage warfare", Greek ou . . . stra·teu·o´me·tha, meaning literally "we are not doing military service" ) according to what we are in the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things. For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God."(2 Cor 10:3-5)

Thus, Christians in the 1st century did not join the military and those who, upon becoming a Christian while in military service, did not remain in the military. Military service, as the 1st century Christians saw, that it is incompatible with true Christianity, for no one can show God-like love and perform military service.

A true Christian has the responsibility to ' overturn strongly entrenched (such as false religious) things....overturning reasonings....raised up against the knowledge of God.' Hence, these have a spiritual battle to fight one of Jehovah's God's enemies, Babylon the Great, the world empire of false religion, exposing its lies and falsehoods for honest-hearted individuals to see how wrong and corrupt it is, so that they can "get out of her".(Rev 18:4)

One of the "daughters" of Babylon the Great is Christendom, who has sent its members off the war, despite Jesus words at Matthew 5 and the apostle Paul's at 2 Corinthians 10. Not only is the churches of Christendom guilty of moral and spiritual corruption, but Revelation 18:24 says that "in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth." She is massively blood guilty, sending her members off to war when a nation says to do so.

Of World War I, British Brigadier General Frank P. Crozier said: “The Christian Churches are the finest blood-lust creators which we have and of them we made free use.”(A Brass Hat in No Man’s Land, published in 1930) This also came true for World War II, for the churches of Christendom, both Catholic and Protestant, were totally involved, in which German soldiers wore a belt buckle on which was inscribed the words Gott mit uns (God is with us). German soldiers wore this inscription in WWI as well.

 

[meshak]

thank you brother guestman, Amen.

 

[veteran]

It's not that easy to put the historical Revisionist Pacifist swing to early Christians that some here would lead us to believe.

Marinus of Caesarea, Julius the Veteran of the 2nd century are prime examples of early Christians serving in the military. Marinus was a centurion, and upon promotion was required to do a pagan sacrifice. He refused but kept The Faith instead and was executed.

Emperor Diocletian (285 B.C.) tried to purge Christians from the military but did not succeed. Some scholars believe that Constantine's conversion to Christianity was helped because of these Christian Romans, even those that were of the imperial household!

2 Cor.10 by Apostle Paul is not about any idea of not serving in the military. It instead is Apostle Paul proclaiming that The Gospel Itself does the conquering, and not by man's weapons of war. He is alluding to conquering by The Spirit, a completely different subject than the Pacifist's ideas of not serving in the military.

 

[meshak]

It's not that easy to put the historical Revisionist Pacifist swing to early Christians that some here would lead us to believe.

Marinus of Caesarea, Julius the Veteran of the 2nd century are prime examples of early Christians serving in the military. Marinus was a centurion, and upon promotion was required to do a pagan sacrifice. He refused but kept The Faith instead and was executed.

Emperor Diocletian (285 B.C.) tried to purge Christians from the military but did not succeed. Some scholars believe that Constantine's conversion to Christianity was helped because of these Christian Romans, even those that were of the imperial household!

2 Cor.10 by Apostle Paul is not about any idea of not serving in the military. It instead is Apostle Paul proclaiming that The Gospel Itself does the conquering, and not by man's weapons of war. He is alluding to conquering by The Spirit, a completely different subject than the Pacifist's ideas of not serving in the military.

Then how do you reconcile with 1)Jesus' "love your enemy" message, and 2)His and His disciples' non-violent faith?

You pro-military Christians disregarding those two issues conveniently.

 

[veteran]

Then how do you reconcile with 1)Jesus' "love your enemy" message, and 2)His and His disciples' non-violent faith?

You pro-military Christians disregarding those two issues conveniently.

It's simple, just like our Lord Jesus and His Apostles revealed. You don't go stirring up war, nor look to create war, but seek peace with ALL men (James 3:18; Heb.12:14; 2 Timothy 2:22; Col.3:15; Eph.4:3; 1 Cor.7:15; etc.).

Yet the reality for this world is that peace is NOT possible with all men because some do not seek peace.

And for that reason we are given the right to self defense (which is what our Lord Jesus was showing in Luke 22 with His command to go buy a sword.)

How are we loving our enemies by that? It's about keeping the peace. Sometimes that requires a mild rebuke, sometimes a law enforcement officer, sometimes a weapon in self defense, and sometimes the national defense. By that our enemies are able to enjoy peace too once the lawless and peace-breakers are dealt with. This is how our Heavenly Father established all nations, not just Christian societies. After WWII, the sane Japanese leaders asked the American leadership like General MacArthur, to establish a post-war law structure that would never allow the war-monger Japanese militarist class to ever get that kind of political power again in Japan. General MacArthur was most happy to help them in that, and look how the Japanese peoples have prospered as a result. How is that not... loving your enemies?

Now with the situation our Lord Jesus was talking about with turning the other cheek, that has NOTHING to do with our God-given right to defend ourselves from murderers, thieves, invading armies, etc. A SLAP on the cheek for preaching The Gospel of Jesus Christ is completely different than a murderer or mugger with a weapon trying to kill you, or an invading army trying to destroy a people or nation.

The origin of the idea of complete disarmament of God's people originates from the very people who do not seek peace with us, but instead that want to DESTROY God's people off the earth.

Jesus is sending love messages and you twisted it to militant savior. You need to repent.

Selene is very correct! Per God's Promises to His people, He foretold that their enemies would rule over them IF they fell away from Him, and that He not give them victory in battle.

Your vain attempt to treat Jesus' turn the other cheek Message into a military disarmament message is stupid Communism, plain and simple.

 

[meshak]

Veteran,

You are still avoiding the point I am making. Jesus and His disciples were surrounded by many enemies but did not kill anyone for self protection. They practiced pacifism.

You are dancing around my questions.

 

[Rach1370]

Veteran,

You are still avoiding the point I am making. Jesus and His disciples were surrounded by many enemies but did not kill anyone for self protection. They practiced pacifism.

You are dancing around my questions.

I'd just like to jump in here with a thought.....I think you'll find if you look at all of scripture that God's followers, no matter if it's Old or New T, act in a manner that most glorifies God and furthers his will.

Consider: We know God to be unchanging, and we know that his perfect holiness will not allow for him to sin, commit sin, or order sin. And yet in the OT He ordered his people to slay multiple people groups to show his might. Heck....He even made Israel's enemies kill, imprison and capture her so that Israel could see that a Holy God could not be sinned against. Both these things...violence in terrible numbers, both happened to show God as He truly is...Holy, Just, Judge, Mighty...etc.

As far as the apostles go...that was a time when following in Christ's example of going meekly to the slaughter was the best thing for the furthering of God's purpose. But we cannot say that God has changed and become a Pacifist. We know he does not change, and indeed the Bible tells us that at the end of the World Jesus will come back not meekly this time, but with a sword...he will slay his enemies at Armageddon with a breath. I mean...seriously...Revelations has some of the violence language and images you'll ever see.....God's enemies being pressed in the wine press of His wrath, their blood flowing to waist hight???

Something else we need to consider on this topic is where we are right now, and how we see God's plan working in the situation. The country that I am in, and that most Westerns are in...we are free to worship Jesus. And this is because our Christian parents went to war against heathens. Really think about how the entire world would look if we did nothing, and had done nothing, against all the violent religions of the world. Think of how Christians in these countries have to hide their faith and worship. If the whole world should be like that, how would these persecuted Christians have had the chance to learn of Jesus through freely sent missionaries, or smuggled in bibles? How would the gospel be sweeping back across Africa without those same resources sent by countries free to worship Jesus? As I said....as Christians we need to be deep in the word and follow his prompting to what better promotes God's purposes....and I know plenty of true Christian people who have a heart for Jesus and others, who have felt called to defend this very freedom and fight for a chance to give this freedom to others.

 

[Groundzero]

Amen Rach. I think we forget how we even got here. If Christians laid down arms and refused to fight, I doubt any of us would be here.

 

[Selene]

I'd just like to jump in here with a thought.....I think you'll find if you look at all of scripture that God's followers, no matter if it's Old or New T, act in a manner that most glorifies God and furthers his will.

Consider: We know God to be unchanging, and we know that his perfect holiness will not allow for him to sin, commit sin, or order sin. And yet in the OT He ordered his people to slay multiple people groups to show his might. Heck....He even made Israel's enemies kill, imprison and capture her so that Israel could see that a Holy God could not be sinned against. Both these things...violence in terrible numbers, both happened to show God as He truly is...Holy, Just, Judge, Mighty...etc.

As far as the apostles go...that was a time when following in Christ's example of going meekly to the slaughter was the best thing for the furthering of God's purpose. But we cannot say that God has changed and become a Pacifist. We know he does not change, and indeed the Bible tells us that at the end of the World Jesus will come back not meekly this time, but with a sword...he will slay his enemies at Armageddon with a breath. I mean...seriously...Revelations has some of the violence language and images you'll ever see.....God's enemies being pressed in the wine press of His wrath, their blood flowing to waist hight???

Something else we need to consider on this topic is where we are right now, and how we see God's plan working in the situation. The country that I am in, and that most Westerns are in...we are free to worship Jesus. And this is because our Christian parents went to war against heathens. Really think about how the entire world would look if we did nothing, and had done nothing, against all the violent religions of the world. Think of how Christians in these countries have to hide their faith and worship. If the whole world should be like that, how would these persecuted Christians have had the chance to learn of Jesus through freely sent missionaries, or smuggled in bibles? How would the gospel be sweeping back across Africa without those same resources sent by countries free to worship Jesus? As I said....as Christians we need to be deep in the word and follow his prompting to what better promotes God's purposes....and I know plenty of true Christian people who have a heart for Jesus and others, who have felt called to defend this very freedom and fight for a chance to give this freedom to others.

Exactly!! Amen to that.

 

[meshak]

I'd just like to jump in here with a thought.....I think you'll find if you look at all of scripture that God's followers, no matter if it's Old or New T, act in a manner that most glorifies God and furthers his will.

Consider: We know God to be unchanging, and we know that his perfect holiness will not allow for him to sin, commit sin, or order sin. And yet in the OT He ordered his people to slay multiple people groups to show his might. Heck....He even made Israel's enemies kill, imprison and capture her so that Israel could see that a Holy God could not be sinned against. Both these things...violence in terrible numbers, both happened to show God as He truly is...Holy, Just, Judge, Mighty...etc.

As far as the apostles go...that was a time when following in Christ's example of going meekly to the slaughter was the best thing for the furthering of God's purpose. But we cannot say that God has changed and become a Pacifist. We know he does not change, and indeed the Bible tells us that at the end of the World Jesus will come back not meekly this time, but with a sword...he will slay his enemies at Armageddon with a breath. I mean...seriously...Revelations has some of the violence language and images you'll ever see.....God's enemies being pressed in the wine press of His wrath, their blood flowing to waist hight???

Something else we need to consider on this topic is where we are right now, and how we see God's plan working in the situation. The country that I am in, and that most Westerns are in...we are free to worship Jesus. And this is because our Christian parents went to war against heathens. Really think about how the entire world would look if we did nothing, and had done nothing, against all the violent religions of the world. Think of how Christians in these countries have to hide their faith and worship. If the whole world should be like that, how would these persecuted Christians have had the chance to learn of Jesus through freely sent missionaries, or smuggled in bibles? How would the gospel be sweeping back across Africa without those same resources sent by countries free to worship Jesus? As I said....as Christians we need to be deep in the word and follow his prompting to what better promotes God's purposes....and I know plenty of true Christian people who have a heart for Jesus and others, who have felt called to defend this very freedom and fight for a chance to give this freedom to others.

So you dismiss Jesus' word and example and follow Judaism. So convenient, flip flopping from NT to OT when it is convenient.

David and his son Solomon had multiple wives and concubines. So it is ok to for us to do that too?

Again, what you say is not nothing new. You already said this and I already refuted your cheap shot.

 

[HammerStone]

Jesus instructed his disciples to buy a sword (Luke 22:36) and Peter lopped off an ear when his rabbi was threatened (John 18:10). These are hardly the actions of a total pacifist, even ignoring God's commands in the OT.

I do not buy into constant and eternal wars, but neither do I buy into the entire total pacifism. War and violence should be an absolute last resort for any Christian, active only when there are no other options.

 

[meshak]

Jesus instructed his disciples to buy a sword (Luke 22:36) and Peter lopped off an ear when his rabbi was threatened (John 18:10). These are hardly the actions of a total pacifist, even ignoring God's commands in the OT.

I do not buy into constant and eternal wars, but neither do I buy into the entire total pacifism. War and violence should be an absolute last resort for any Christian, active only when there are no other options.

So why did Jesus rebuked Peter when he used it and cut Pharisee's ear off? You have no proof that Jesus meant for protection.

You are doing the same thing as Rack did, flip flopping NT to OT practice. Jesus' followers dont practice Judaism. We have new covenant with Jesus.

where can you find any violent action of Jesus or His disciples? You cannot. there is not any.

Did you read the OP?

blessings.

 

[Rach1370]

So you dismiss Jesus' word and example and follow Judaism. So convenient, flip flopping from NT to OT when it is convenient.

No, I do not dismiss Jesus' words, or his example. In fact I was pointing out that Jesus himself will say there is a time for death...at his own hands when he comes again. Are you dismissing his words? Revelations is Jesus telling John what will happen. That's Jesus....and his words. Are you dismissing them in your desire to be right?
As far as 'flipping' from NT to OT....it's ALL Gods word....it's not up to us to decide which parts of his word is still relevant. In fact Jesus acknowledged the OT and it's importance...why? Cause all of it pointed to him! And Paul tells us that ALL scripture is God breathed and therefore profitable. You do understand what that means, yes? It means that reading the OT in light of Christ will teach us valuable things. Things like I was just mentioning...how God is for his glory and HIS plan. Not your plan....HIS.

David and his son Solomon had multiple wives and concubines. So it is ok to for us to do that too?

You missed my entire point. The bible is full of sin...we don't follow it, we learn from it. Yes David and Solomon had multiple wives...and we see the grief and sin that lead to. And we learn what God's plan is.....it's all about God, and where he wants us to be and how he wants us to follow him. We learn that not everyone's path is the same, but it all leads back to him and for his praise.

Again, what you say is not nothing new. You already said this and I already refuted your cheap shot.

Ah...hello? This is my first post on this topic, so I couldn't have possibly given you a cheap shot on 'this'....

 

[meshak]

No, I do not dismiss Jesus' words, or his example. In fact I was pointing out that Jesus himself will say there is a time for death...at his own hands when he comes again. Are you dismissing his words? Revelations is Jesus telling John what will happen. That's Jesus....and his words. Are you dismissing them in your desire to be right?
As far as 'flipping' from NT to OT....it's ALL Gods word....it's not up to us to decide which parts of his word is still relevant. In fact Jesus acknowledged the OT and it's importance...why? Cause all of it pointed to him! And Paul tells us that ALL scripture is God breathed and therefore profitable. You do understand what that means, yes? It means that reading the OT in light of Christ will teach us valuable things. Things like I was just mentioning...how God is for his glory and HIS plan. Not your plan....HIS.


You missed my entire point. The bible is full of sin...we don't follow it, we learn from it. Yes David and Solomon had multiple wives...and we see the grief and sin that lead to. And we learn what God's plan is.....it's all about God, and where he wants us to be and how he wants us to follow him. We learn that not everyone's path is the same, but it all leads back to him and for his praise.


Ah...hello? This is my first post on this topic, so I couldn't have possibly given you a cheap shot on 'this'....

No, I do not dismiss Jesus' words, or his example. In fact I was pointing out that Jesus himself will say there is a time for death...at his own hands when he comes again. Are you dismissing his words? Revelations is Jesus telling John what will happen. That's Jesus....and his words. Are you dismissing them in your desire to be right?

Jesus is the judge, you are not. He will judge the world and us. You are still dismissing Jesus and Hid disciples' pacifism when He was on earth.

As far as 'flipping' from NT to OT....it's ALL Gods word....it's not up to us to decide which parts of his word is still relevant. In fact Jesus acknowledged the OT and it's importance...why? Cause all of it pointed to him! And Paul tells us that ALL scripture is God breathed and therefore profitable. You do understand what that means, yes? It means that reading the OT in light of Christ will teach us valuable things. Things like I was just mentioning...how God is for his glory and HIS plan. Not your plan....HIS.

So you are not with Jesus with new covenant. I see.

You missed my entire point. The bible is full of sin...we don't follow it, we learn from it. Yes David and Solomon had multiple wives...and we see the grief and sin that lead to. And we learn what God's plan is.....it's all about God, and where he wants us to be and how he wants us to follow him. We learn that not everyone's path is the same, but it all leads back to him and for his praise.

Just because OT showed plenty of sinful act does not give us lisense to make excuses for sinning. You dont seem to know sinners will not inherit God 's kingdom.

Ah...hello? This is my first post on this topic, so I couldn't have possibly given you a cheap shot on 'this'....

Sorry, so many pro-military say the same thing. what is the difference, you guys are repeating the same thing over and over even though they were all refuted.

There, you have nothing new.

 

[Rach1370]

I do wonder what reality you're in. You couldn't have missed my point any more if you'd tried.
It's impossible to debate with irrational people...good day.

 

[HammerStone]

So why did Jesus rebuked Peter when he used it and cut Pharisee's ear off? You have no proof that Jesus meant for protection.

Because Peter and the disciples slaying the temple guards would not have lead to the cross. Jesus went to the cross because it was God's plan and not because he advocated pacifism, which is your idol.

You are doing the same thing as Rack did, flip flopping NT to OT practice. Jesus' followers dont practice Judaism. We have new covenant with Jesus.

Using that logic, Jesus was also a Jew considering he quoted from those same Old Testament Scriptures 78 times from 27 books. He even went so far as to expand on the 10 commandments to indicate thoughts were violations of them (Matthew 5).

where can you find any violent action of Jesus or His disciples? You cannot. there is not any.

John 2:15
So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.

Matthew 21:12
Jesus entered the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves.

He made a whip and drove out the false ones from the temple. I don't believe that qualifies as pacifist.

 

[meshak]

I do wonder what reality you're in. You couldn't have missed my point any more if you'd tried.
It's impossible to debate with irrational people...good day.

It seems clear to me that pro-military christians are not reading Jesus' messages without preconceived notions of traditional corrupt faith or practice.

good day and blessings.

Because Peter and the disciples slaying the temple guards would not have lead to the cross. Jesus went to the cross because it was God's plan and not because he advocated pacifism, which is your idol.


Using that logic, Jesus was also a Jew considering he quoted from those same Old Testament Scriptures 78 times from 27 books. He even went so far as to expand on the 10 commandments to indicate thoughts were violations of them (Matthew 5).


John 2:15
So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.

Matthew 21:12
Jesus entered the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves.

He made a whip and drove out the false ones from the temple. I don't believe that qualifies as pacifist.

Because Peter and the disciples slaying the temple guards would not have lead to the cross. Jesus went to the cross because it was God's plan and not because he advocated pacifism, which is your idol.

Again you are dismissing Jesus and His disciples' pacifism examples.

Using that logic, Jesus was also a Jew considering he quoted from those same Old Testament Scriptures 78 times from 27 books. He even went so far as to expand on the 10 commandments to indicate thoughts were violations of them (Matthew 5).

Yes, He did. However, Jesus' used all godly practice, not all OT practices are of God. Jesus corrected many of them.

John 2:15
So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.

Killing and driving out people with whip is not the same, dear. It is just absurd comparison that pro-military people uses all time.

Matthew 21:12
Jesus entered the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves.

see the above.

He made a whip and drove out the false ones from the temple. I don't believe that qualifies as pacifist.

see the above.

blessings.