Is believing/faith a work ?

[Ernest T. Bass]

You still advocating salvation by works, a false doctrine Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

AGAIN, the phrase "works of righteousness we have done" refers to man trying to merit salvation by doing his OWN works rather than be saved by doing GOD'S righteousness as in submitting to water baptism as God has commanded. Note how these works of merit are CONTRASTED from 'washing of regeneration" which refers to water baptism. Hence water baptism is not a work of merit but it is doing GOD'S righteousness and how God saves us. The verse simply states God's saves us by water baptism (washing of generation) and not by works of merit we have done for no man can do enough good to earn salvation.

AGAIN, the Jews in Romans 10:3 were lost for they were going about establishing their OWN righteousness instead of obeying GOD'S righteousness which does saved. There is an obvious difference between man doing his OWN righteousness and doing GOD's righteous but it appears you do not want to see this difference for it undermines your argument. And nowhere ever does the Bible define obedience to God's will a work of merit we have done to earn salvation. As I shown above, Titus 3:5 CONTRASTS water baptism from works of merit we have done.

When Naaman dipped in the river, he was cleansed by God for he obeyed GOD'S righteousness/command......he was not doing his OWN righteousness whereby he merited his cleansing.

============================================


John 3:5 shows the new birth consists of two elements 1) Spirit 2) water. Note these two elements are in Titus 3:5:

John 3-------- Spirit ++++++++++++ water >>>>>>>>>> enter the kingdom
Titus 3:5------Holy Ghost ++++++++washing of reg >>>>>> saved
1 Cor 12:13--Spirit +++++++++++ baptized >>>>>>>>>> enter the body


Titus 3:5 is proof text on the necessity of water baptism and it contrasts water baptism from works of merit.

===========================================

"There is no debating about whether or not salvation is a matter of grace—it is (Eph. 2:8). We are not saved by works of our own righteousness but according to God's mercy (Titus 3:5). The question is whether or not there are works of another class included within the realm of grace? Does the Bible teach there are "works" which exclude boasting consistent with divine grace?

The Bible says that Abraham was saved by "works" (Jam. 2:21-23). These were works of faith, that is, obedience to God which was rooted in and sprang forth from faith (Heb. 11:8, 17-19). There is no sense in which the works which Abraham did can be said to have been "his own works." He did not appoint the journey. He did not originate the sacrifice of his only son. God asked for these things and Abraham with implicit trust obeyed God.

Thus, we are urged to walk in the steps of Abraham's faith (Rom. 4:12). How can we so walk, if "doing" nullifies grace?

Peter clearly declares salvation is promised to him that fears God and works righteousness (Acts 10:34-35). Paul affirms that he preached in order to secure from others the "obedience of faith" (Rom. 1:5; 16:26). Such obedience is not inconsistent with grace, but establishes grace (Rom. 6:15-18)."
Salvation By Grace Through Faith

Hence Abraham was not doing his OWN works in attempting to merit justification when he moved form his home and when he offered his son. Instead he was obeying GOD'S commands and he was justified for his obedience to those commands of God. Hence to try and lump obedience to God's commands in with works of merit is unbiblical, it is but a poor attempt to force Luther's faith only into the Bible.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

If and when someone teaches that salvation/justification is based upon a condition performed by man, lie faith or repentance, water baptism, its synonymous to teaching that they are justified/saved by a law, a work of theirs, so by their merit, which is contrary to grace, Rom 4:4 6

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Obviously the TYPE of work under consideration is works of merit. If Abraham could have kept God's law flawlessly, perfectly sinless then his reward would not be of grace but of debt, God would owe it to him for his flawless law keeping. It is Paul's point here in Rom 4 to show the Jews that their father Abraham (and David) was not justified by flawlessly keeping the law but justified by an obedient faith. If it is true for the father of the Jews and David that justification is not by flawless keeping of the law but by an obedient faith, then that is true for ALL Jews.


The problem for faith-onlyists is nowhere ever is a faithful obedience to God's will said to be a work of merit, hence Romans 4:4-5, Ephesians 2:9; Romans 11:6 are NOT referring to obedience to God's will. If obedience to God's will is a work of merit, then Naaman dipping 7 times in the river was a work of merit meaning God OWED him his cleansing. Yet in this context Paul is CONTRASTING works of merit FROM obedience for Abraham DID OBEY GOD (Hebrews 11:8,17) and was justified by those OBEDIENT works yet he had nothing to boast about (Romans 4:2). If Abraham could have been justified by his own effort in working to keep the law flawlessly, then he would have no reason to boast in God but could boast about his own efforts in flawless law keeping.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Yes it is !

Then explain how Noah could have built the ark by just "thinking" about building it apart from actually DOING the work of putting the ark together.

 

[amigo de christo]

Then explain how Noah could have built the ark by just "thinking" about building it apart from actually DOING the work of putting the ark together.

For it is GOD who both gives us the desire , the will to do and the ability to do that which is pleasing in HIS sight through Faith in the glorious
risen savoir Jesus Christ .
Now let those who have the Spirit and are HIS , stir one another up unto good works by that same Spirit .
Being not hearers only and thus decieving ones self .
We must stir one another up to do the good and to flee all appearance of evil .
Stir one another up by all reminders in the bible . Every example was written for our own good
that we heed not the evil they lusted after and that we do the good which is pleasing to GOD . Let all that draws breath
both praise and thank and then thank and praise the glorious Lord . And let not inquity be named once
amongst us . Stir one another up , by the one true spirit and heed not the flesh .

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

God saves sinners, the ungodly, enemies. You are advocating salvation by works. Thats a false doctrine !

God does not save sinners who refuse to obey His will..."I will not justify the wicked" (Exodus 23:7).

Your belief in faith only has you trapped in an illogical position you repeat the same false accusation that I am advocating salvation by works of merit. I have shown from the Bible and gave many Bible examples of people obeying God's will yet their obedience is never called a work of merit whereby they earned God's free gift meaning God OWED them for their obedience. Some have 'faith only' embedded in their brain and I can doing nothing for them but I can try and keep others from getting caught in illogical trap you are caught in.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

For it is GOD who both gives us the desire , the will to do and the ability to do that which is pleasing in HIS sight through Faith in the glorious
risen savoir Jesus Christ .
Now let those who have the Spirit and are HIS , stir one another up unto good works by that same Spirit .
Being not hearers only and thus decieving ones self .
We must stir one another up to do the good and to flee all appearance of evil .
Stir one another up by all reminders in the bible . Every example was written for our own good
that we heed not the evil they lusted after and that we do the good which is pleasing to GOD . Let all that draws breath
both praise and thank and then thank and praise the glorious Lord . And let not inquity be named once
amongst us . Stir one another up , by the one true spirit and heed not the flesh .

If Noah only "heard" what God said about building the ark but was not a "DOER" of what he heard, that is, Noah was a "hearer only", then the ark would have never been built, Noah would have disobeyed God and therefore have died in the flood with the rest of the wicked people.

 

[amigo de christo]

If Noah only "heard" what God said about building the ark but was not a "DOER" of what he heard, that is, Noah was a "hearer only", then the ark would have never been built, Noah would have disobeyed God and therefore have died in the flood with the rest of the wicked people.

Same with abraham . Abraham believed GOD and the proof was found in His obediance .
We cannot seperate LOVE from obediance . HE who loves ME keeps my sayings .
A hearer and a doer . All else is but vain . Whom we love is who we obey and who we obey shows the proof of whose we truly are indeed .
Having been born of the Spirit a lamb is now a new creature . A lover , a doer of all things True . All things that are pleasing to GOD
are wrote upon the heart of a lamb . and by that SPIRIT they have both the desire to do and the ability to do and they do so with joy.
For the sayings of Christ are a joy unto the soul of a lamb and happy is the lamb that does them .

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Same with abraham . Abraham believed GOD and the proof was found in His obediance .
We cannot seperate LOVE from obediance . HE who loves ME keeps my sayings .
A hearer and a doer . All else is but vain . Whom we love is who we obey and who we obey shows the proof of whose we truly are indeed .
Having been born of the Spirit a lamb is now a new creature . A lover , a doer of all things True . All things that are pleasing to GOD
are wrote upon the heart of a lamb . and by that SPIRIT they have both the desire to do and the ability to do and they do so with joy.
For the sayings of Christ are a joy unto the soul of a lamb and happy is the lamb that does them .

Yet some in this thread are trying to equate "hearing" to 'doing'. Just "thinking" about building the ark is NOT the required DOING in order to have the ark in reality.

 

[brightfame52]

AGAIN, the phrase "works of righteousness we have done" refers to man trying to merit salvation by doing his OWN works rather than be saved by doing GOD'S righteousness as in submitting to water baptism as God has commanded. Note how these works of merit are CONTRASTED from 'washing of regeneration" which refers to water baptism. Hence water baptism is not a work of merit but it is doing GOD'S righteousness and how God saves us. The verse simply states God's saves us by water baptism (washing of generation) and not by works of merit we have done for no man can do enough good to earn salvation.

AGAIN, the Jews in Romans 10:3 were lost for they were going about establishing their OWN righteousness instead of obeying GOD'S righteousness which does saved. There is an obvious difference between man doing his OWN righteousness and doing GOD's righteous but it appears you do not want to see this difference for it undermines your argument. And nowhere ever does the Bible define obedience to God's will a work of merit we have done to earn salvation. As I shown above, Titus 3:5 CONTRASTS water baptism from works of merit we have done.

When Naaman dipped in the river, he was cleansed by God for he obeyed GOD'S righteousness/command......he was not doing his OWN righteousness whereby he merited his cleansing.

============================================


John 3:5 shows the new birth consists of two elements 1) Spirit 2) water. Note these two elements are in Titus 3:5:

John 3-------- Spirit ++++++++++++ water >>>>>>>>>> enter the kingdom
Titus 3:5------Holy Ghost ++++++++washing of reg >>>>>> saved
1 Cor 12:13--Spirit +++++++++++ baptized >>>>>>>>>> enter the body


Titus 3:5 is proof text on the necessity of water baptism and it contrasts water baptism from works of merit.

===========================================

"There is no debating about whether or not salvation is a matter of grace—it is (Eph. 2:8). We are not saved by works of our own righteousness but according to God's mercy (Titus 3:5). The question is whether or not there are works of another class included within the realm of grace? Does the Bible teach there are "works" which exclude boasting consistent with divine grace?

The Bible says that Abraham was saved by "works" (Jam. 2:21-23). These were works of faith, that is, obedience to God which was rooted in and sprang forth from faith (Heb. 11:8, 17-19). There is no sense in which the works which Abraham did can be said to have been "his own works." He did not appoint the journey. He did not originate the sacrifice of his only son. God asked for these things and Abraham with implicit trust obeyed God.

Thus, we are urged to walk in the steps of Abraham's faith (Rom. 4:12). How can we so walk, if "doing" nullifies grace?

Peter clearly declares salvation is promised to him that fears God and works righteousness (Acts 10:34-35). Paul affirms that he preached in order to secure from others the "obedience of faith" (Rom. 1:5; 16:26). Such obedience is not inconsistent with grace, but establishes grace (Rom. 6:15-18)."
Salvation By Grace Through Faith

Hence Abraham was not doing his OWN works in attempting to merit justification when he moved form his home and when he offered his son. Instead he was obeying GOD'S commands and he was justified for his obedience to those commands of God. Hence to try and lump obedience to God's commands in with works of merit is unbiblical, it is but a poor attempt to force Luther's faith only into the Bible.

You still advocating salvation by works, totally against scripture.

 

[brightfame52]

Obviously the TYPE of work under consideration is works of merit. If Abraham could have kept God's law flawlessly, perfectly sinless then his reward would not be of grace but of debt, God would owe it to him for his flawless law keeping. It is Paul's point here in Rom 4 to show the Jews that their father Abraham (and David) was not justified by flawlessly keeping the law but justified by an obedient faith. If it is true for the father of the Jews and David that justification is not by flawless keeping of the law but by an obedient faith, then that is true for ALL Jews.


The problem for faith-onlyists is nowhere ever is a faithful obedience to God's will said to be a work of merit, hence Romans 4:4-5, Ephesians 2:9; Romans 11:6 are NOT referring to obedience to God's will. If obedience to God's will is a work of merit, then Naaman dipping 7 times in the river was a work of merit meaning God OWED him his cleansing. Yet in this context Paul is CONTRASTING works of merit FROM obedience for Abraham DID OBEY GOD (Hebrews 11:8,17) and was justified by those OBEDIENT works yet he had nothing to boast about (Romans 4:2). If Abraham could have been justified by his own effort in working to keep the law flawlessly, then he would have no reason to boast in God but could boast about his own efforts in flawless law keeping.

Any condition imposed makes salvation by works, a false way of salvation.

 

[brightfame52]

Then explain how Noah could have built the ark by just "thinking" about building it apart from actually DOING the work of putting the ark together.

Nothing to explain. Noah like any other saint was saved by grace, not works. Read Gen 6:8

But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

 

[brightfame52]

God does not save sinners who refuse to obey His will..."I will not justify the wicked" (Exodus 23:7).

Your belief in faith only has you trapped in an illogical position you repeat the same false accusation that I am advocating salvation by works of merit. I have shown from the Bible and gave many Bible examples of people obeying God's will yet their obedience is never called a work of merit whereby they earned God's free gift meaning God OWED them for their obedience. Some have 'faith only' embedded in their brain and I can doing nothing for them but I can try and keep others from getting caught in illogical trap you are caught in.

All sinners by nature are enemies of God in their minds by their wicked works, thats just being a sinner Col 1:21

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

Now if you condition salvation on some obedience of yours, you advocate salvation by works, a contradiction to salvation by Grace.

God saves the ungodly sinner by grace not by their works.

 

[mailmandan]

Nothing to explain. Noah like any other saint was saved by grace, not works. Read Gen 6:8

But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

Amen! Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith and not the origin of it.

 

[farouk]

If the only way I can have faith is if God gifts it to me, then whose fault is it if I were faithless and lost?

I don't deserve any credit. 'Not of works, lest any man should boast' (Ephesians 2.9).

 

[farouk]

Amen! Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith and not the origin of it.

"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2.10).

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I don't deserve any credit. 'Not of works, lest any man should boast' (Ephesians 2.9).

Eph 2:9 refers to works of merit, if one could keep the law perfectly then his reward would be of debt and not of grace (Romans 4:4) and one could boast of his own efforts. It does not refer to obedience to God's will for obedience to God is not a work of merit one could boast about.
Naaman obedience to God in dipping 7 times in the Jordan was not a work of merit whereby God owed it to him to cleanse him.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

All sinners by nature are enemies of God in their minds by their wicked works, thats just being a sinner Col 1:21

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

Now if you condition salvation on some obedience of yours, you advocate salvation by works, a contradiction to salvation by Grace.

God saves the ungodly sinner by grace not by their works.

The Bible does not teach men are born with a sin nature, such an idea makes man an innocent victim of sin and God a villain for condemning innocent man.

Your argument continues to be dead for obedience to God's will is not a work of merit putting God in a position in owing man some thing for man's obedience.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Nothing to explain. Noah like any other saint was saved by grace, not works. Read Gen 6:8

But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

Genesis 6:8 Noah did not find grace in the eyes of the Lord because he was perfectly sinless for he was not. But he found grace in the eyes of the Lord because he had a faithful obedience in that "he walked with God" hence he was seen as "righteous" by God. In order for him to continue to find grace in the eyes of the Lord and be graciously saved from the flood required he obediently build the ark. No obedience = no grace = die in the flood with the rest of the wicked.

Not building the ark would been an act of unbelief, faithlessness (Hebrews 11:7). Noah "received righteousness that comes by faith" means Noah could not be good or perfect enough to merit salvation by his own works. Therefore it took his faithful obedience in obeying God to receive God's free gift of salvation from the flood. Obvious difference between 2 different types of works...works of merit that could not save Noah from the flood and a faith obedience that would save him from the flood. Noah being called "righteous" therefore was not from within himself due to his own works but from God due to Noah's faithful obedience.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Any condition imposed makes salvation by works, a false way of salvation.

Again, your argument is dead for it denies the clear, plain teachings from the Bible of the many examples of men obeying God's will yet not the first time is a faithful obedience to God called a work or merit.

 

[amigo de christo]

"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2.10).

Yes indeed my friend . Let He who glories , just glory in the LORD . To Him we owe all and let us praise and thank the glorious Lord .
Keep stirring one another up unto good works and having all faith and trust in JESUS .