In regard to what Jesus said to Peter, it appears that the Apostle John's presumption is in error.

[The Third One]

@theefaith (specifically, the catechism onslaught) & @The Learner (specifically, your James quote about “works”):

At first glance I was hopeful there was something substantial in those many listings of Scripture. After an in-depth look, it is obvious, your only goal is to protect the false and detrimental dogma taught to you by “the Church.”

What you have been posting lately falls into the same category as the garbage that was spewed at me when I first came in here. Remember those initial posts?

By (The Third One) saying that John made a mistake, you are saying the Bible is wrong! The Church (never being wrong) has taught us that, not even the presumption of, an Apostle of Jesus can ever be wrong… so you’re the devil!

With you guys, it’s still ALL about what the Church has taught you.

Do you have any Holy-Spirit-Guided thoughts of your own?

I told you (in terms of what’s been done for us on the cross), neither one of these manmade dogmas (that you argue back and forth) is correct, “faith” or “works.”

“Faith (... in what…) without works is dead” ???

You have no idea what’s been done for you on the cross, so how can you even begin to have “faith” in it. Even if you could get that far (in having an understanding what it is), having “faith” in it does a person no good!

One must KNOW what it is, 100%, with no “ifs,” “ands” or “buts,” and then TAKE it.

Jesus used the Word, “pistin.” It does not mean, “faith.” Why do you guys keep associating “faith” and “belief” with what’s been done for us on the cross? I’ll tell you why. Because you have been Church-Taught to do so. In the context of Gift-Reality, the words you use (“faith” and “belief”) are weak, cheese-headed, religious words. These are unsubstantial words. "Whom" is anyone trying to reach with these words? Obviously, the people whom (for two thousand years and running) have been USING these words. The weak. The cheese-headed. You know. The religious. These are unsubstantial words. These are irrational words. “Faith” AND “Belief.” These are words that have no business being associated with What’s-Been-Done-For-Us-On-the-Cross.

It seems, we keep having two separate conversations, back and forth.

You are not even addressing what I am trying to teach you. You are un-teachable! (lol, I’m kidding… hopefully). You keep spewing the same dead Church rhetoric I’ve heard 50,000 times before. I know it by rote, better than you do; and, yet, you are trying to teach it to me! Its dead! Why are you still Living in it? How are you any different from the religious people living 2000 years before Jesus came? You are not. That is the sad Truth. You are the programmed and processed-culmination of a 2000 year Track Record... that stinks to High Heaven.

Do you have “faith” that the sky exists”? Do you “believe” that there are trees on the planet? Or, do you KNOW, 100%, with no “ifs,” “ands” or “buts,” that up above you (up above the roof that rests above the room you’re sitting in) there is sky. And, without a doubt in your mind, you KNOW that there are trees out there.

Are you that sure (100%) Jesus died on a cross?

I think you are.

So where’s the problem?

I have been telling you, right along, where the problem is. You have no idea what’s been done for you on the cross. And… once you do (if you ever will), you simply need to truly accept it. The “ifs,” “ands” and “buts” are a BIG part of the problem. You’re not even interested in one solution to your many problems. Everything goes in one ear and out the other. You are Living in a dream world, where there will always be some measure of doubt for you. I keep telling you (and it keeps going in one ear and out the other) you have to take ALL the trash (Church-Dogma) to the curb. ALL the extras that distract. Yes, you’ve heard somewhere (within ALL the Church-Dogma you’ve come to embrace) that what’s been done for us on the cross is a “gift” of some sort.

Yet, you have no idea… that you are suppose to TAKE it!

It’s a gift. (Certainly not something for us to “believeth on.”)

Need I repeat? (Yes, I guess I need too, but will it do any good for you to hear it trice? Is “three times” the charm? ) In the context of Gift-Reality, “faith” and “belief” are weak, cheese-headed, religious words. These are unsubstantial words. These are irrational words. “Faith” AND “Belief.” These are words that have no business being associated with What’s-Been-Done-For-Us-On-the-Cross. Have “faith” in Santa Claus. Have “belief” that it will rain tonight or that the Cubs are going to win the pennant next year. It does a person no good to have “faith” in What’s-Been-Done-For-Us-On-the-Cross.

It is a DONE-DEAL. It is Reality.

Since you know the Scriptures, you should already know what it is. What does “faith” have to do with something that has already been done for us?

It’s a gift.

What are we supposed to do with a gift?

BELIEVETH in it?

(Buzzer sound!) Wrong. Duh. We are supposed to turly ACCEPT it.

Yes, ALL we have to do is truly TAKE it.

My only sympathy for you is the reason that I am still wasting my time (talking to a dead horse) answering your responses. You have inherited this problem.

 

[The Third One]

For, your Church has no idea what’s been done for us on the cross; and, you have been mercilessly programmed by its worthless brainwashing.

Every one of the Church’s “Justification Theories” are in abject error. What’s been done for us on the cross has nothing to do with “justification.” Rather: It is ALL about, taking our Way-Of-Thinking back to our Factory Setting.

What’s been done for us on the cross is not a “blood sacrifice.” It is a RANSOM! Do not put new wine into old garbage cans! Jesus did not die from bleeding out; having succumb to the knife, then -- having planned it ALL out -- he allowed for his body be burned to ashes on some Neanderthal alter! Duh! Once again, for umpteenth time:

It is a RANSOM!

Kidnappers are not paid in so many pints of blood. Unless the kidnapper happens to be a vampire or a lunatic. (Attention, ALL lunatics who may be reading this. The vampires are the fictitious ones.)

Nor does what’s been done for us on the cross have anything to do with “the remission of sin,” nor “the forgiveness of sin.” Taking the sin of the world AWAY, is what it’s ALL about.

theefaith says, “This church cannot teach error.”

Right. I thought we were going to speak only the Truth in here? That statement is as True as saying, a dog cannot eat its own vomit.

“This church cannot teach error.” LOL! Is that supposed to be a new prime directive for the Church? Because… its track record stinks. Of course, you are speaking of the same Church which taught that the earth sat at the center of the universe; and that Galileo was a heretic for proving otherwise. Even if she was a prostitute, Jesus did not think Mary Magdalene was repulsive; yet, the Church did. According to the Formed Church (specifically infallible Pope Gregory I), prostitution is precisely how Mary earned her living. Interesting note, Mary Magdalene remained a repulsive prostitute in the eyes of the Church for 1,378 years, 591AD to 1969AD. At which time infallible Pope Paul VI decreed Mary Magdalene not a prostitute. Have fun, Catholic friends, sorting that one out. Infallible Pope versus infallible Pope. Keep in mind, this is the same Church that burned Joan of Arc at the stake (not to mention, countless others — over nothing but Church-Taught idiocy). Among the Church-Charges against Joan of Arc? “Violating divine law by dressing like a man.” Joan was nineteen when the Christian Church burned her alive as a heretic. Imagine, taking a nineteen-year-old girl, tying her to a stake and setting her on fire. Her screams, falling upon the deaf ears of “The Faithful.” The “Faithful,” themselves, being the most trashed victims. Blood-drunk from the absolute-insanity of Church-Taught dogma.

Church dogma... as it sits... right this very moment (Formed and Re-Formed) is in 95% error! We’re not talking slight error. We’re talking abject error. Which includes ALL ten of THE CHURCH’S TOP TEN MOST PROFANE ERRORS OF ALL TIME. Specifically, NUMBER TWO on that Top Ten List (one of the subjects at hand in this discussion): Dismissing and replacing the Jesus-Word, “RANSOM,” for the Church-word, “satisfaction.” This abomination is second, only to the NUMBER ONE Most Profane Church Error of ALL Time: The Church’s insistence that the Living God created the universe out of NOTHING.

Profaneness and abomination aside; STILL, the biggest problem facing the Church is its abject ignorance as to exactly what’s been done for us on the cross.

We have been given a powerful psychological anchor that, if truly accepted, enables us to change our minds completely AWAY from the destructive mindset of Good & Evil, back to our Factory Setting: IT’S ALL GOOD.

Which brings us directly back to the main trust of this entire thread.

Jesus taught Peter the Truth; and, Peter knew the Truth; and, Peter truly accepted the Truth, 100%, with no “ifs,” “ands” or “buts.”

How do we know that for an absolute fact?

Because Peter had FREEDOM. Real FREEDOM. The kind of FREEDOM one can only have by knowing the Truth. (As in, “The Truth shall set you FREE.”)

Not kinda FREE.

“FREE-Indeed” as Jesus says.

“Truly, truly I say to you,” Jesus says to Peter. “When you were young, you tied a strap around yourself (did with yourself however you pleased) and walked wherever you wanted to walk (even on water).” Total FREEDOM.

Jesus predicted: Peter will be led off by Paul of Tarsus and thrown right back into the same hole (in the same basement) where Jesus had found Peter. The same hole, from which Jesus had delivered Peter and set him FREE.

“FREE-Indeed.”

 

[BeyondET]

I am up to post #216 (I’ll get to what follows, after I catch up with ALL this) @theefaith & @The Learner are set, next for take off. Then the @VictoryinJesus Jumbo Jet (can’t wait to finally get this one in the air! Great questions girl! Right on the money! Then posts #217 through #219 (Welcome back ScottA, whose been a silent observer for awhile — no matter how smart he is, don’t let him kid you VictoryinJesus, truly accepting what’s been done for us on the cross TOTALLY insulates us from ALL evil. We’ll get to that in GOOD Time. (Stay with us my old, smart friend, ScottA). But the Tower says that BeyondET gets to cut in line ahead of ALL (unfair, unfair). (pouty faces).


@BeyondET writes,

“Seems to be the fad these days reinventing the wheel.”

After a serious look at our 2000 Year Progress Report, any caring person with any common sense would agree that IT sure seems to need to be “reinvented.”

“The wheel,” as IT has been passed down to us, is dreadfully broken.

IT is missing five spokes: RANSOM, AWAY, PERFECT, FREEDOM and ALL. What’s been done for us on the cross cannot be honestly accepted without them.

Manmade as it is, there have been chunks of wood chewed out of IT. And, the empty holes have been replaced with garbage.

@L3astAmOngManyB13ss3d mentions two of these “Word of God” for “word of man” Biblical replacements (“OVERDUBS” as I like to refer to them) in her last post:

“May (1)GRACE be granted to his children, (2)FORGIVENESS be accepted by the unbelievers.”

1) “PERFECT-Grace” has been turned into useless “grace.” Dear friends, there is a huge difference between “grace” (even if you throw the word “amazing” in front of it) and PERFECT-Grace. To gain PERFECT-Grace, one must come to the ground-zero awakening that the power of what’s been done for us on the cross works only one way. ALL by itself.

2) As for the Concept of “Sins taken AWAY” written this way, originally, throughout the Word. This has been replaced with a much more-modern, made-up word: “forgiveness.” (We have yet to discuss this one (yet); but, yes, there is no such word as “forgiveness” in the original Hebrew or Greek language.) And, so (obviously)… nowhere does... "forgive," "forgiven," "forgiveness" etcetera... appear in the original text of (what now entails) our entire Biblical canon. Remember, “AWAY” is one of our missing spokes.

Tell the Truth? Which would you rather have? Your cancer repetitively forgiven? Or your cancer completely taken AWAY?

There are other BIG ONES (other than 1 & 2 above) -- ONES which we have already discussed. The actual Word of God, “Change your mind,” has been overdubbed throughout the Bible with another pathetically useless, manmade word, “repent.”

And, last but not least, “Jesus’ gathering,” which includes ALL of humanity, from Adam and onward (yes, that’s the Holy Word of God for it: “gathering”) has been overdubbed with yet another manmade invention called... “church.”

We invented a country club for dues-paying Slaves of Sin.

Anyway, back to our broken wheel.

IT is infested with termites that have destroyed its very function: The “ifs,” “ands” and “buts,” in and of themselves, make true-acceptance nearly impossible for the Church-Taught Christian to affirm.

99.999999% of the world’s population, “believers” and “nonbelievers” alike, remain Slaves of Sin. You don’t “believe” me? Take it up with Jesus. Jesus said, “Anyone who sins is a Slave of Sin.”

You know what’s really bad? A broken wheel is a pathetic sight for “the rest of the world” to look at (you know — the two thirds of us humans (by “us” I mean ALL of us)… that ALL you Church-Taught guys like to refer to as “nonbelievers”).

A “broken wheel” promotes lawlessness to the most desperate among us. And, oh boy, we’ve got plenty of desperation and lawlessness going on, now don’t we? The 2000 years after John the Baptist announced, “Behold the Lamb of God who takes AWAY the sins of the world” has a worse Progress Report than the 2000 years before his announcement.

A “broken wheel” promotes apathy. There are so many among us humans, at this point, that just don’t give a damn anymore.

The best thing about a “broken wheel” is that IT promotes REALITY. (It should, shouldn’t it? When we see a broken wheel?) The rational part of humanity that cares about Truth is simply looking at a wheel that doesn’t work. Oh, well, then, it needs to be fixed? (Buzzer sound!) Wrong. "Holier ones" have already tried that. It's called "The Reformation." Oops. They only made it worse.

Our Father in Heaven says what's best. (Father knows best) He says, "Throw it AWAY, already! And, dig up "The Wheel" Jesus invented."

What was it us “Believers” were supposed to be? Oh, yeah. “The Light of the World.” “The Salt of the Earth.” Hardly. We “Believers” are... “The Fat Man Stuck In the Stairwell.” We can’t go up. And, because of us, nobody else can either.

The Living God of Light sees “the Church” as a abomination. It sickens Him that His name is associated with “the Church” in any way, shape or form; “ALL its leaders, members and visitors aside; for, they are, by far, the most damaged victims of it!” so says the Lord God Almighty.

I know... us “Christians” tend to think of ourselves as “the Church.”

Every Christian should fall on his or her face and be thankful that our Father in Heaven does not see us that way.

The God’s-honest Truth? I’m trying to help restore The Wheel which Jesus left for us. PERFECTLY intact.

It is Paul of Tarsus who “reinvented” The Wheel.

Starting at Romans 6:16.

Stick around, BeyondET. We are about to take a very serious look at exactly “Where The Wheel Got Broken.” See, @VictoryinJesus, that’s another GOOD way to put IT. “Where The Wheel Got Broken.” VictoryinJesus, knows that I refer to it as “The Plane Crash.” That’s a pretty good metaphor as well: “Where The Wheel Got Broken.”

Who are the .000001% let me guess your one of those?

 

[The Third One]

Not only did Jesus predict that Peter would willingly hold his hands out in front of him, to be led off as a slave to his old Master (The Knowledge of Good & Evil) and to his new Masters (Paul & Religion); moreover, Paul would prep Peter (“gird” him) enabling Peter to allow himself to be forced to Live the rest of his God-Given Life... in a prison, at hard labor. Until Peter himself would succumb to a most senseless death for a most misbegotten cause — which, at that point, was at least 65% in error!

75% in error by the time Paul (“another”) had directly gotten done with it.

And, now, after 2000 years?

At least 95% in error, directly because of “the Church” Paul (“another”) has put into motion; which, to this day, still continues to reach new heights of error.

“You will extend your hands and another will gird you, and carry you where you do not want to go.”

Where none of us want to go.

Yet, here we are.

It’s not that Paul was the devil. Or the “antichrist” as others have alluded (in here) earlier.

Paul was simply mislead by the Forces of Darkness.

Paul’s “heart” was always in the *right* place. Saul/Paul/Rocky always “believes” he is doing the *right* thing. Yes, even when it comes to judging everyone from Adam to Zachariah. Yes, even when he was stoning Christians to death.

Ultimately, Paul will get his “well done, good and faithful servant” merit badge sewn across his breastplate and a pat on the back.

“Rewards” he so desperately craves.

Some people just never know to when to quit. (Like, when they are way ahead.) It is one thing to win the million dollar jackpot on the Super Big Bertha slot machine; it is quite another thing to walk out of the casino with ALL of the money in hand.

Jesus demonstrates this human conundrum in his Parable of The Talents. Although, cleverly, Jesus only mentions the number of talents originally given (the stake) and the final cashing out of the talents (without ALL of the ups and downs in-between).

Paul is a great example of “the in-betweens” workings of the parable. By reducing the first five and-a-half chapters of Romans to pen & paper, Paul turned the five talents he was given into five-thousand and ten talents. Outstanding!

However, before Paul was done writing, he lost three-thousand talents on the IFS, ANDS and BUTS Wheel Of Fortune. Then, he blanked-AWAY another two-thousand talents at the Judgment Tables.

Bottom line? Rocky was given five talents. He ended up with ten.

“Well done good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much.”

And, you can “believe” it. Rocky WILL be set over much. He will be held personally responsible for the deliverance of ALL the final hold-outs (mostly made up of his “In-Christ” followers). By the time ALL things in this age are complete, Rocky will gladly endorse every GOOD Word and recant every inadvertent, incorrect and idle-word he ever spoke against the Good News, until the last penny has been paid.

Yes, our Christian hero, Bluto/Saul/Paul/Rocky will really be sent-out by the Living GOD to preach the Good News... to his brothers and sisters “in Christ.” ALL of them, still Slaves of Sin. You can read about them outside the city gates (Revelation 22:15).

In my opinion, this thread has been sidetracked with uselessness. However, the Living God has found it very useful. Then again, He has an endless amount of patience and Time at His disposal.

In my opinion, thank God for @VictoryinJesus. She is the answer to my “Let’s get on with it already!” prayers.

 

[The Third One]

@VictoryinJesus,

You go girl! The MS may have hampered your typing abilities, but certainly not your writing abilities. I love your writing. No doubt, you have, indeed, already written a book somewhere (if you put it ALL together). God’s speed, many more books to come!

VictoryinJesus writes:

“For starters, and maybe I’m stuck in my own way of thinking. You have mentioned John in the title as presuming too much, and then Paul's ‘plane crash’ ...isn't that judging John and Paul?”

No, my dear. “Judging a person” (in the context of our big discussion within this thread), involves seeing or accusing a person as being “evil,” “bad,” “sinful,” “of the devil,” “displeasing to God,” etcetera.

If you will read the entire thread, I have praised both John and Paul as being very good people, both of them star human athletes of Team Light.

Like every human, John is human. John simply made a very honest mistake. He presumed Jesus meant one thing when, in actuality, Jesus meant something entirely different.

Any one of us (familiar with ALL the details that John was aware of at the Time) could have very easily made the exact same mistake. John, himself, corrected the other mistake they ALL made… about that other thing Jesus said in his Good-Bye speech. We’ve already covered ALL this.

Peter more than welcomed martyrdom. Jesus specifically mentioned Peter’s FREEDOM as “‘young’”-FREEDOM” — the FREEDOM we are born with. Born-again-with, once we truly accept the Jesus Concept.

Back to SLAVERY… is where Jesus was saying: That Peter did not want to go.

Only from our perspective (hindsight is 20/20) can the Holy Spirit help us to understand and embrace John’s error. And, marvel over the fact that Jesus knew. He knew ALL of what was coming. He predicted it. That Peter would not be the one feeding the sheep; rather, “another” would be… doing… “the feeding.” That Jesus-Rooted-Peter would be bound, “girded” and led where Peter did not want to go… by Religion-Rooted-Paul. Oh yes, Paul of Tarsus is many things… including “another.”

As for Paul, Jesus talked about him more than you think. He is Jesus’ second disappointment in regard to what would become of “the Word” (found in the “Parable of the Sower” — as “Mature-Christians” have come to call it). That's not a judgment, on Jesus' part. Nor mine. That's a fact.

No, my dear. I do not judge Paul as being “evil,” “bad,” “sinful,” or “of the devil.” However, he was terribly misled by the Forces of Darkness.

“Team Darkness” as the Holy Spirit refers to IT.

Again, that is neither a judgment nor an opinion. That’s an absolute fact.

VictoryinJesus honesty states: “Right now, I just don't see it.” And, so, she asks another very GOOD question:

Why did you use those words “plane crash” ...maybe it will help to understand what you are saying if I understood why those words “plane crash” were the choice of words.

I am talking about Paul’s reversal.

“The Plane Crash.”

Precisely where Paul “crashed the plane.” The Holy Spirit helped me to express it that way as a literary metaphor — when writing it out, for the average person to easily understand it as: “The Plane Crash.”

That way, you, too, can see it. As I literally saw it (eye-witnessed it) when I was High In the Spirit. (I may, one day, tell you, Victory, about the “eye witness” part, privately; for now, let’s just keep it down to earth)

Seeing it as a plane crash, helped me to understand it much better as well — from a common, Ground-Floor, everyday-person standpoint. Plus the “Plane Crash” analogy, amazingly, works across the board, before, after and especially, during the plane crash.

Let’s get right to it.

In the first five chapters of Paul’s letter to the Romans, the Holy Spirit reveals the Good News to Paul. Paul does an excellent job of reducing this revelation of ALL revelations to paper — in spite of his Religion-Roots.

Granted, there’s still a lot of Paul’s Religion-Rhetoric sprinkled in (how can he help himself — after ALL, Paul is Religion... way more than Fauci is Science). Paul chooses to get ALL this across to his reader by writing certain religious words instead of THE Words. Still, our Christian hero does an outstanding job. Essentially... Paul copyrights the Good News in these first five chapters.

Even so… Paul questions the Holy Spirit three times during these most wonderful chapters. You may have read these questions yourself as you passed through Romans and thought them as merely rhetorical questions. No, Paul is honestly asking these questions. And, the Holy Spirit, Giver of ALL Truth, is giving him the answers. And, Paul is dutifully writing them down.

 

[The Third One]

Chapter Six begins with Paul, asking THE FOURTH question. (yes, there are dumb questions) In answer, Team Light (led by the Holy Spirit) starts to answer Paul by saying, “May it never be.” (There is static. And... then… a new station suddenly comes in.)

Immediately, Team Darkness takes over with the very next sentence. Paul simply failed to “test the Spirits” here. For, from this point (the last sentence of Romans 6:2 through Romans 6:13), it is ALL Team Darkness speaking, save for one phrase that had already been taught to Paul by the Holy Spirit — that we are to: “Walk in newness of Life.”

If you would like, I could diligently go into ALL of that stuff (just mentioned) in great detail; however, for now, let’s get to the REAL important stuff. The first huge “AND” that Paul throws into the Works (of the “IF,” “AND” and “BUT” variety).

Remember (did you read it the second time I posted it?), there is a huge difference between “grace” (even if you throw the word “amazing” in front of it) and PERFECT-Grace. To gain PERFECT-Grace, one must come to the ground-zero awakening that the power of what’s been done for us on the cross works only one way.

ALL by itself.

Now, granted, that is radical. But, then, again, the Jesus Concept is radical. We need something radical to forever be done with Sin and Guilt and Evil and Death. Perhaps it would help to know that the Living God of Light did not create these truly rotten things: Sin, Guilt, Evil and Death. Simply put, they do not come from EVERYTHING. They come from NOTHING.

Jesus’ Concept is ALL about sending these rotten things AWAY — forever. Back to NOTHING. However, the Concept only works when it is administered and accepted in its pure form.

Undiluted.

What’s been done for us on the cross works ALL by itself. The Jesus Concept does not promote lawlessness; nor, once truly accepted, does it inspire it (just the opposite). Yes, at this point you are just going to have to trust me on that point. I’ll get that very point, BIG TIME.

For now, understand... what’s been done for us on the cross works without ANY of the religious stuff. Yes, even without church-going. (oh, my!) Without “the armor of Paul.” Without “obedience.” Without “maturity.” Without “cleaning up our Lives.” Without “worship.” And, yes, even without “serving Jesus.” To say otherwise depletes the PERFECTION of what’s been done for ALL of us on the cross, especially the “very worst” of us.

He came to help the sick (not the healthy), and Jesus himself would be the first one to tell you, he did not come into this world for you to serve him.

Rather... he came to serve you.

By giving his Life for you.

As a RANSOM for you.

The Holy Spirit would be the first One to second the motion:

Romans 4:4-5: (Multiple Translation) “But don’t you earn Heaven because of ALL the good things you do? No. Your right to share in the Kingdom of Heaven is a gift; if you could earn it by being good, then it wouldn’t be FREE — but it is! It is given to those who do not work for it. To even the worst man imaginable with no good works to his name, if ALL he relies upon is the blood of Christ alone (the RANSOM alone) to pay for his wickedness; such confidence, within itself, is counted by our Heavenly Father the exact same as PERFECT righteousness.”

The above combination-translation (ALL known translations congealed into one) is an excerpt from the first five chapters of Paul’s letter to the Romans, where the Holy Spirit is speaking fluidly through Paul.

As we know (or as some of you have just been advised)...New chapter (Chapter Six): the Spirit of Darkness takes over at the last sentence of verse 6:2 ALL the way through 6:13 — with the exception of “Walk in newness of Life.”

At verse 6:14 is where the Holy Spirit takes over, yelling:

“No! Sin shall not have dominion over you! For, you are not under the Law, but under Grace!”

The KJV (and most every other version) calmly reports this verse to us as part of the same “6:2 through 6:13” speech, “For, sin shall not have dominion over you…”

Romans 6:14 is the last time Paul ever writes about PERFECT-Grace:

Romans 6:14 (KJV) “For sin shall not have dominion over you, for ye are not under the Law, but under Grace.”

This is The-Real-Deal in ALL purity. 100% — with no “ifs,” “ands” or “buts.”

This is PERFECT-Grace.

At Romans 6:14, through Paul’s open pen, the Holy Spirit has just told us that PERFECT-Grace is more powerful than any and ALL sin. Even more powerful than the Law itself.

The God’s-Honest Truth? This is not Paul. This is a complete bypass around Paul.

This is ALL Holy Spirit coming through.

So much so that... suddenly... this whole “Grace-thing” does not set so well with our brother Paul and his DD degree (Doctor of Divinity). Oh, yes. Paul has a DD. On the wall. Framed in glass. Right behind his desk. The one he faithfully earned at PCC (Pharisee Community College).

 

[The Third One]

And, so... throwing a “What then?” into the works, Dr. Paul asks his FIFTH Pharisee-Inspired question (dumber than his last one; well... it is certainly a faithless and fearful question)...

Romans 6:15 (Original Greek) “What then? May we sin, for we are not under the Law, but under Grace?”

Here is how Doctor Paul’s question reads in the Living Bible:

“Does this mean that now we can go ahead and sin and not worry about it; for, our salvation does not depend on keeping the Law, but on receiving God’s Grace?”

According to the Holy Spirit, any person who truly accepts What’s-Been-Done-For-Us-On-the-Cross is a person no longer under the dominion of Sin or the Law. Such a person is now and forevermore FREE under PERFECT-Grace. Such a person is “FREE-Indeed.”

Under PERFECT-Grace, it is impossible for such a person (a true acceptor) to commit sin. For, ALL of his sins — past, present and future — have been taken AWAY. This is the only answer to Paul’s question that works hand in hand with the Holy Spirit.

Instead, how does Paul answer his fateful question?

Disastrously. With yet an exclamation mark: “May it (“it” being FREEDOM-Indeed under God’s PERFECT-Grace) never be!”

According to this voice (so opposite, it is like hearing from another country) we have only two choices. We can be slaves; or, we can be slaves. Slaves of Sin. Or slaves of obedience to the Law:

Romans 6:16 (The Living Bible) “May it never be! Don’t you realize that you can choose your own Master to obey? You can choose Sin (with death) or else Obedience (with acquittal). The one to whom you offer yourself — he will take you and be your Master and you will be his slave.”

In case any of you have ever privately wondered, with Jesus being so PERFECT, and with Jesus being so clear about granting us rest for our souls (for “his yoke is easy and his burden is light”), how did Christianity ever get so imperfect? So splintered? So diversely-denominational? So outright difficult? So heavy in chains? So twisted? So judgmental? So contradicting? So badly messed up?

This is it — Romans 6:16.

This is precisely where the ball bearing falls into the camshaft of Christianity.

Plunk...

Crash!

I am carefully showing you this with the hope of inspiring you to ask a very important question about Paul’s answer for us at Romans 6:16.

What happened to What’s-Been-Done-For-Us-On-the-Cross?

I’ll pause for your answer. Take your time. Read 6:16 again. Here is how it reads in the King James Version:

Romans 6:16 (KJV) “Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?”

Practically the same in the Catholic approved New American Bible:

Romans 6:16 (NAB) “Do you not know that if you present yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?”

It is impossible for anyone to OBEY what’s been done for one on the cross. One must simply and truly ACCEPT what’s been done for one on the cross.

Even the drunk passengers on board this airplane must be sensing... something terribly wrong has just happened: “Now going... opposite direction.”

We are going backwards. Paul is preaching Old-School to us here at Romans 6:16. Old-School, meaning, “the way unto righteousness” before we had the blessing of simply and truly accepting what’s been done for us on the cross. Right before our eyes, the pure power of what’s been done for us on the cross has Diabolically dissolved into two choices. We can “obey sin” which leads to death... or, we can “obey obedience” which (according to Paul) leads to righteousness. Indeed... this is an entirely different direction than the direction Paul was flying us during the first five and-a-half chapters of Romans.

The Truth? Most of us are still dead-asleep. Perhaps — just perhaps, mind you — a few more of us, this very instant, may have just been startled awake. The G-force is unbearable and pushing us into our seats. The conscious passengers are now screaming:

My God! Father in Heaven help us! We ARE going backwards. And, upside down. We are going down! Tail first and inverted!

As for the two (and only two) choices Paul gives us at 6:16 as his remedy/answer to his problem/question, why isn’t one of our choices... simply... What’s-Been-Done-For-Us-On-the-Cross?

Taking everything into consideration that Paul writes before Romans 6:16 and everything he writes after, there is only one possible answer. What’s-Been-Done-For-Us-On-the-Cross has just become Paul’s dilemma — a most serious dilemma to his established “belief” system. A theological dilemma that rushes blood to his theological face, causing his theological head to spin. If part of our theological “Faith” is that Paul had a conversion on the road to Damascus, Paul has just had another one at mile marker 6:16 on the Romans Highway.

 

[The Third One]

Can we, as Mature-Christians, handle the God’s-honest Truth? (Brace yourself.) Paul never stopped being what he is, and the first five and-a-half chapters of Romans is a Holy Spirit-Inspired “miracle.” What Paul never stopped being is a Pharisee-Extremist. What he became in Christianity is not much different.

On the other hand, what the Holy Spirit has never stopped being is the absolute God’s Honest Truth. The Holy Spirit cannot lie. The Holy Spirit cannot contradict. Would you be brave enough to do one thing for your Holy Spirit?

Wake up.

I know. It is tough to do so when your first reaction (pushed into your seat such as you are) is to close your eyes and ears and pretend this is not happening. Keep your eyes and ears focused on the Holy Spirit:

Romans 6:14 (Original Greek) “Sin will not rule over you! For you are not under the Law, but under Grace.”

The Holy Spirit has just defined Grace (PERFECT-Grace) as being more powerful than any and ALL sin (past-sin, present-sin, future-sin, intentional-sin, non-intentional-sin, venial-sin, mortal-sin, repetitive-sin) and more powerful than the Law, itself.

In the middle of Romans, Chapter Six, at last (and unfortunately), this is... now... a big problem for our brother Paul. Why? Because (along with even darker voices) Paul still has “the Pharisees” in him. You can take the man out of the Pharisees, but not the Pharisees out of the man. To a Pharisee, it is ALL about THE LAW. A Pharisee loses his mind to THE LAW (exactly why the extremists among them were livid with murderous rage over Jesus healing people on the Sabbath). For the sake of Gentile Christian Evangelism, Paul will loosen his belt here and there for “the greater good,” but, SIN, itself, and how it relates to THE LAW, is a whole other matter.

Paul was strictly taught, when it comes to SIN, nothing is more powerful than THE LAW.

And, yet, specifically, the Holy Spirit has just told us (through Paul’s open pen, no less) that PERFECT-Grace is more powerful than the Law.

The way Pharisee-Paul sees it, what’s been done for us on the cross has just become a religious impasse. A slap-in-the-face to ALL theological reason. And, so... Paul takes it upon himself to fix the cross. Instead of bravely upholding the previous five and-a-half chapters of Romans, Paul fearfully throws the gears into reverse.

Fearfully?



Absolutely. Paul is appalled, dismayed and absolutely horror-stricken by the idea of PERFECT-Grace having more power than the Law:


This “Grace thing” has got to be tempered… with something… or people are going to think they can just do whatever they want and have a license to sin. Cross-or-no-cross, you best be “obeying obedience!”


Obeying obedience. Hello? Paul? Did we hear you correctly?


Yes. You heard Paul as clear as church bells ringing. Paul did not stutter.


Here is how Paul’s reversal reads in the New International Version:


Romans 6:16 (NIV) “Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you OBEY — whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to OBEDIENCE, which leads to righteousness?



An interesting choice of words. We are to “obey…obedience.”


Clever nonsense. Carefully consider why it is nonsense. Although, we can obey something, we certainly cannot obey “obedience” itself. The something (Paul insists) we are to obey is a very specific three-letter word that Paul does not want to use... here... to describe “our Master” — the only Master (of the two Masters he offers us) that we (as obedient slaves) can possibly choose to obediently obey (other than obeying Master Sin, of course). The Law.


The point?


“Obeying…obedience” is Paul’s clever way of saying (without actually saying it): You need to be obeying... the Law.


Why such hush-hush cleverness?


Paul has to be very clever at saying it... here... at 6:16.


Why?


Because, the Holy Spirit has just told us (at 6:14, a mere two verses-ago) that if we truly accept for ourselves what’s been done for us on the cross, we are no longer under the Law. We are under PERFECT-Grace.


Make no mistake. At Romans 6:16, Paul is back to preaching the Gospel of the Pharisees: a man can choose a Life of sin... or... a man can choose a Life of righteousness. SELF-EARNED righteousness.


Specifically, righteousness SELF-EARNED through “obedience” to the Law.

 

[The Third One]

(Spooky huh? The entire site just went down. Get it? The Forces of Darkness.)

(Now up again: The Forces of Light)

Back to the Plane Crash:

On the turn of a dime, Paul has done a complete one-eighty in response to the singularity of our “salvation” (our RANSOM) exclaimed by the Holy Spirit in the preceding five and-a-half chapters of Romans — the completeness and PERFECTION of simply and truly accepting our CROSS-EARNED righteousness.

That is an absolute fact.

For, at this point, whenever the Holy Spirit makes it abundantly clear to Paul that our righteousness is earned only by truly accepting what’s been done for us on the cross, then Paul is back to his same poorly-posed, poorly-worded, faithless and fearful question:

Romans 6:15 (Original Greek) “What then? May we sin, for we are not under the Law, but under Grace?”

There is no “apologetic” answer for the catastrophic plane crash at Romans 6:16.

What does THAT mean?

It means there is no viable way for even the most astute Christian to make Romans 6:16 work hand-in-hand with the God’s-honest Truth. The optimal question remains. Can a Mature-Christian handle the God’s-honest Truth? (Brace yourself.) The very thing keeping Paul’s airplane aloft during the first five and-a-half chapters of Romans is the pure power of what’s been done for us on the cross. At Romans 6:16, the pure power of what’s been done for us on cross has just gone bye-bye. What’s been done for us on the cross is no longer on the airplane. Read 6:16 again and again and again if you must.

Two choices. Sin. Or obedience to the Law.

Let us be gracious. Even though What’s-Been-Done-For-Us-On-the-Cross has been completely thrown out the window at Romans 6:16; as good Christians, we must force ourselves to “believe” that, certainly, the cross must still be in the back of Paul’s mind somewhere.

It is.

Paul is determined to IMPROVE upon what’s been done for us on the cross. So... according to Paul, IN ADDITION to “believing” in “the cross” (whatever grand ecclesiastical mystery “‘believing’ in ‘the cross’” is supposed to mean) we must become obedient slaves to the Law.

And, oh boy. That is merely the first addition. The first add-on. The first “AND” to simply and truly accepting What’s-Been-Done-For-Us-On-the-Cross. There are many more to follow. Not to mention a snoot-full of “IFS” and “BUTS.”

After Romans 6:16 and onward, the writing is mostly Paul. Yes, there are plenty of bright spots where the Holy Spirit pushes through. However, for the most part, what follows 6:16 is a Paul manifesto. The Philosophy of a Pharisee-Extremist Christian.

Along with Paul’s disastrous reversal at Romans 6:16, the Church has inherited fifty truckloads of “ifs,” “ands” and “buts.” As Christians, we inherit them too, as part of our “Faith.” We are taught to “believe” in ALL of them. Any one of which, by itself (if bought-into) prevents the “believer” from truly accepting — 100%, with no “ifs,” “ands” or “buts” — what’s been done for us on the cross.

Jesus’ eleven hand-picked remaining Apostles were no exception. They bought into Paul’s cross-fixing as well. The Apostle, John, being the least infected, having had that extra year of tutelage from John the Baptist. Still, ALL eleven of the remaining Apostles were Paul-Influenced to some degree (actually, to a large degree).

Jesus wanted Peter to write the Gospel of Jesus — the Gospel of PERFECT-Grace. Common folk. Hearing ALL of Jesus’ commonsense. From a common fisherman (not from a DD).

The last words of Jesus to Peter were in rapid repetition. Five times Jesus begged Peter to “Feed my sheep!” (Don’t follow a Pharisee) “Follow me!” However, it did not happen. Peter’s contribution ended up being less than a New Testament footnote compared to the prolific and overwhelming “gospel” of Pharisee Paul, which, overall, became the New Testament — the food for the sheep.

And, even in Peter’s writings (James’ too), there is very little of what Jesus taught. Their thinking is ALL overwhelmed-over by what Paul taught.

Paul taught Peter (and the rest of Jesus’ remaining eleven) as well as Paul’s “Church” to throw AWAY Cross-Bought FREEDOM. In favor of what?

In favor of choosing what kind of a SLAVE you’d like to become.

A slave to Master Sin or… a slave to Master Sin?

Not a typo. Give it time. Master Obedience, Master Self-Earned Righteousness and Master Law always and inevitably sell any and ALL of us right back into the clutches of Master Sin. In this world, under Doctor Paul’s doctored-down version of “grace,” you will always be a Slave to Sin.

Peter goes from total FREEDOM… to being led AWAY… and being offered two roads to SLAVERY.

The same two roads to slavery Paul offers the rest of humanity.

Thus, perhaps now, you can better understand and “believe” Jesus’ prediction to Peter.

Frankly, at this point, I don’t care whether you “believe” it or not. I’ve said my peace. And, my time Truly seems like it could be used more effectively elsewhere.

I will leave it up to the room.

If anyone would like to discuss this, fine.

If so, I do not need another Bible lesson on Church catechism. I am quite familiar with it.

If you use Scripture, use it to support the Holy Spirit — Her thoughts.

So “pray” about it first.

Or better yet, why not try something new. Get off by yourself… to a nice, favorite, quite place… and honestly talk to the Living God about it.

Perhaps it might help if just VictoryinJesus and The Third One talk about this for a while, while everyone else just... “hide ’n’ watch.”

Not to repress FREE speech (a very important *right* we still have, which is also in dire jeopardy as we speak, no pun intended). (The Lights went out for second there folks.) So, I take it back. If you have something to say (be it question or comment), say it.

Just, please… have something to say.

 

[The Learner]

smile

 

[The Third One]

Oops. I see I missed another important question.

@Beyond ET asks:

Despised all religion where's that at?. Sat down with some elders intrigued.

My actual comment was: “Jesus despised ALL Religion; yet, he inadvertently became one.”

Most of the major prophets despised ALL Religion as well.

The Living God absolutely abhors Religion. Why? LOL. Why not?

What is there to like about it?

Just like your “elders,” I find the conundrum “intriguing,” too. Jesus despised Religion, yet he became one. Is that confusing?

Jesus didn’t have anything to do with it — “Religion,” that is. It ALL started with Cain and Able.

We have Organized Religion (working under The Knowledge of Good & Evil) to blame for so much evil. Mostly outright EVIL. The many “let’s kill the little kids while they’re at school” tragedies. The Guiana tragedy. The Waco tragedy. The 911 tragedy. The World War Two tragedy. The World War One tragedy. The Napoleonic Wars tragedy. The Crusades tragedy. The brother-with-blue-colors who kills his own brother-with-red-colors tragedy. It can ALL be traced ALL the way back to the Cain & Abel tragedy.

Think about it. What IS Organized Religion? A pooling of abstract “beliefs” into some kind of Organized Structure. Questions leading to presumptions about God. The most dangerous questions always beginning with “why?”

Why did God do this? And... Why did God prefer this over that?

Leading to presumptions.

I “believe” that THIS is what God means. And, I have “faith” that THAT is what God wants us to do.

Organized Religion only needs two ingredients to come alive — as in, horror-movie-alive. (“IT’S alive!”) The Knowledge of Good & Evil. And... Time:

Genesis 4:3 (KJV) “And in the process of time it came to pass that Cain brought an offering unto the Lord.”

Cain got Religion. And, then his brother, Abel did the same (but not quite the same). Able… used… Live, furry, squirming animals... which added a bit of zest to the sport.

Did the Living God require “sacrifices” from second generation humanity?

Absolutely not.

So, then, what is this manmade invention? A sacrifice? A burnt-offering?

It is a Relative action spun out of the primeval advent of Organized Religion. Keep in mind, both Cain and Able were religiously doing this. That takes organization. It takes pooling abstract and even insane “beliefs” into some kind of organized structure.

“Insane beliefs?”

Yes. They come forth out of our mental illness (The Knowledge of Good & Evil). I could write a book about it; but, the Holy Spirit suffices to pronounce:

“God has no needs.”

As to God’s preference? Best for us mere humans not to worry our pretty little heads about it. Best not to ask the insanely stupid “preference-question” about God. Why?

Why does God prefer this? And... Why did God not prefer that?

The God’s-honest Truth? It is really none of our business. “God’s ways are not our ways.” We should not even try to understand such things. What would be the point in us knowing? The answer... that we invent... can only end in disaster and tragedy among us.

On the other hand, it is quite commendable and truly profitable for us to ask these “why” questions about ourselves. So, then... why do our answers (actually, our invented presumptions), concerning the question of God’s preference, always end in disaster and tragedy for us?

Because, as humans (within our limited perspective) we are filtering our answer-to-the-question (our judgment) straight through our mental disease. Straight through our brain cancer — The Knowledge of Good & Evil.

Did you know that it is absolutely impossible for a human being to commit (what we refer to as) “a sin” without first gaining… guess what?

The Knowledge of Good & Evil.

That’s the Truth.

In the order of human invention, here is the one-two-three-four-five punch of it. According to Genesis, “a conscience” is the first thing we invented out of The Knowledge of Good & Evil.

Judgment is number two. (Discerning Good & Evil)

Guilt is number three.

Organized Religion is number four.

And, Sin is number five.

These inventions (and the order in which we invented them) are Biblical fact (not conjecture). Amazing, isn’t it? Intriguing. Organized Religion came into this world before Sin came into this world. Actually... just... before Sin came into this world. The spark that lights the fire. The burnt offerings of Cain & Abel are the central issue that leads to murder.

 

[The Third One]

Why do you suppose? Why is it that Organized Religion (evil in and of itself) would be such an accelerate to the worst of EVIL... murder?

Because Organized Religion must have things in terms of right & wrong.

Meaning?

If there is a right there has to be a wrong. Organized Religion can only exist in the mindset of right & wrong. Meaning, since there is GOOD in this world, there has to be EVIL in this world. Organized Religion is the daughter of Master Knowledge of Good & Evil. And, faithful to its parent (its Master), if there is a Good there has to be an Evil.

With the Knowledge of Good & Evil and with the practice of Organized Religion in the works... Wow. It is best to walk tippy-toe, upon eggshells.

As Elmer Fudd suggests, “Be verwee, verwee careful.”

Sort of why soccer moms prefer not to keep score. Especially, if both teams huddle in prayer before the game. For, if, numerically (by the score) before God and Heaven, we declare one team... the winners (Good) the other team of seven-year-olds has no choice, before God and Heaven, but to be seen as... the losers (Evil).

No, son, we don’t want you to feel badly (Evil) about yourself. You’re not a loser. You only lost THIS time. You’ll just have to try harder NEXT time.

Yikes. The next time comes. Danny and his team did try harder before God and Heaven. They lost again... before God and Heaven. And, yet again... before God and Heaven. They ended the season 0-15... before God and Heaven.

“Oh, my God!” cries Danny. “I AM an outright loser in God’s sight!”

In the Church-Taught language of Organized Religion, the answer is harsh, yet simple: “God has respect for Timmy and his team. But, as for Danny and his team? God has no respect.”

I’ll just go kill myself now, Danny says. On second thought, I’ll kill Timmy, his entire team... and THEN I’ll kill myself. Better yet, I’ll wait till I get to high school, strap on my camouflage outfit, my semi-automatic hardware and take out ALL the jocks, ALL the cheerleaders and any other — Good — students I come across in my paramilitary wake. And... then I’ll kill myself.

Sounds terribly familiar, doesn’t it?

We have Religion, marching to the tune of its Master — Master Knowledge of Good & Evil — to blame for this. By “this” of course I mean the Columbine tragedy. The Waco tragedy. The 911 tragedy. The World War Two tragedy. The World War One tragedy, etcetera.

I guess you must have missed the post where I quoted what Jesus has to say about Religion and its teachers:


Here is the best Jesus has to say about being guided by religious teachers:

Matthew 15:14 (New Heart English Bible) “Leave them alone. They are the blind leading the blind. And, if the blind guide the blind, both will fall into a pit.”

Here is the worst:

Matthew 23:15 (Original Greek) “They travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when they have succeeded, they turn them into twice the sons of Hell they are themselves!”


Way beyond these quotes (and more specific to our Religion) “The Church” along with its many denominations of “Christianity” are the third disappointment in Jesus Parable about “The One Who Sows.”

“Other seed fell among the thorns, which grew up and choked the Wheat.”

As you should already know, “the Wheat” in the parable represents the Word. Through the Word, we receive The Gift (What’s-Been-Done-For-Us-On-the-Cross). Of ALL the Words in this world known to man, PERFECTION and FREEDOM best describe the result of truly taking The Gift. In other Words, what we are personally blessed-with from The Gift is a world of GOOD.

The One who sows the Wheat foresees the fruition of his Family’s crop — his Father’s Wheat — impeded and upended by a multiplying plague of Life-sucking and overgrowing thorns. Forty-three-thousand denominations and growing. Thistles, Tares, Zizania, Rag-Weed, etcetera.

Take a good look at “The Church” through Jesus’ eyes.

One better than Wall Street has predicted these Wheat Futures. An “up-and-coming” from Farmer-Jesus’ first century perspective. As he looks at the Wheat in the first century, he keeps one eye open to the future. He SEES that the Wheat can no longer be seen. The Wheat has been “choked” and put asunder. Even as he stands right in the middle of what is to become a worldwide field of Wheat, he knows ALL the devastating perils in store for his starter seed.

We are standing right in the middle of the same field, taken over by a Weed-Infested nightmare. We cannot even see the field… for the Weeds.

For us to truly see this devastating outcome (where we are at, right now), we must detach ourselves from the first two centuries and use our twenty-first century satellite imagery. Like viewing crop circles. As we get farther and farther AWAY from the first and second century AD, we get a clearer and ever clearer aerial view of what has become of what was supposed to be Farmer-Jesus’ WWF — Worldwide Wheat Field.

 

[The Third One]

Once one opens one’s eyes completely out of the Box, one can plainly see.

Thorns not merely upending the field. Worse. The thorns have replaced the Wheat. Thorns, spreading outward, taking over every inch of fertile soil. Across every nation; and, still, spreading to virgin ears untouched by this thorn-infested “gospel.” Counterproductive doctrine. At least ninety-five percent in error. Worse than merely wrong. It is deprecating and destructive to anyone who would, otherwise, instantly and truly accept what’s been done for us on the cross.

Yes, ladies and gentlemen, the thorns in the parable represent Religion. Specifically, “Christianity” — the unorganized Religion that, somehow, has come to claim “Jesus” ALL for itself. A prickly infestation. The Church-Taught have successfully convinced the world that “believing” in Christ (whatever that’s supposed to mean) identifies you as one of the club members — “a Christian.” Making you part of the country club.

Join us and become “In-Christ!” For, WE are the ones hearing the Word!

Funny. (Funny-amazing, not funny-ha-ha.) Intriguing. That is exactly how Jesus identifies the thorny soil. “The ones hearing the Word”:

“Now the seed, having been sown among the thorns — these are the ones hearing the Word, but the worries of this Life and the deceit of riches choke the Word. And, so, it becomes unfruitful.”

The power of Religion in this world comes directly from MAN’S utilization of knowledge. Two percent is inspired by The Knowledge of Heaven & Earth while a whopping ninety-eight percent is inspired by The Knowledge of Good & Evil. “The worries of this Life” are why MAN invented Religion in the first place. Add into the equation “the deceit of riches,” and Jesus has identified the Diabolical formula for how “the Church” has kept its power in this world. Oh, yes. It is still more powerful than any of the nations it perverts.

It takes courage for men to speak out against such power. Besides Jesus, many men of history, men we hold in respect, have done so. We should listen to them. They share a common Spirit, a Comforting One. For, ALL these quotes are directly inspired by the Holy Spirit:

“The Lord says: Cursed is the man who puts his trust in mortal man and turns his heart (his conscience) AWAY from God” Jeremiah

“ALL Religion, my friend, is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.” Edgar Allen Poe

“This would be the best of ALL possible worlds if there were no Religion in it.” John Adams

“So far as Religion of the day is concerned, it is a damned fake. Religion is ALL bunk.” Thomas Alva Edison

“Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.” Benjamin Franklin

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Mahatma Gandhi

 

[The Third One]

@ScottA boldly states:

“Being born into this world and coming to the knowledge of good and evil is to be born into a choice.”

Question: Are you actually purporting that “The Knowledge of Good & Evil” is a GOOD thing?

Yes, Scott… I guess you are saying that. For, you go to say, “That is what God has done.” and “It’s a gift.”

The gift from God is having no knowledge of “right” and “wrong.” For, ALL of us are born into the world in that condition and remain so as little children until we become infected with The Knowledge of “right” and “wrong.” At that point — exactly at that point — our innocence is truly gone.

This is the God’s-honest Truth. Somewhere between being a FREE, pure, PERFECTLY GOOD little child and becoming what you are now, you took on a yoke. Rarely does it happen before turning one. Usually, between one and two. Likely, no later than three or four. At some point, you gained your first knowledge of Good & Evil... and then, immediately, your knowledge of Good & Evil mutated into super-drive, like a cancerous brain virus.

You gained IT from everyone. What started in Adam and Eve (from one juicy bite) you gained the super-toxic, exponentially-multiplied variant of IT — from ALL. You gained IT from mom and dad, siblings, grandparents, friends, neighbors and teachers. You gained IT from books, plays, movies, TV and you certainly gained IT from the Internet. You gained IT from the entire world around you. And, when you were finally introduced to Organized Religion, your knowledge of Good & Evil became not only “God-endorsed” but ratified and put to freaking music.

Hand in hand with gaining The Knowledge of Good & Evil, you bought into the concept of imperfection. And... then... you contracted the full-blown disease. You became irreversibly psychologically ill (irreversible outside of a “miracle”).

Prognosis: Terminal. You bought into and accepted the concept of “SIN” — the concept of right... & “WRONG.” You bought into this corrupting concept of the mind and (along with applying this concept to everything) you had no choice but to apply IT to yourself.

Let us clearly identify the fatal problem. Deprecation of self. It is a human problem beyond pandemic. IT is practically universal. IT is humanity’s problem. And, so (quite likely) IT is your problem. Your self-destroying self-diagnosis of self. A falsehood you came to truly accept, 100%, with no ifs, ands or buts.

There is both Good & Evil in humans — in ALL people. Yes, I have come to truly accept this as “Truth.” This means that SOME portion of WHAT I AM... is evil.

Brain cancer. More powerful than an atomic bomb.

Scott, are you seriously suggesting that God did this to us? That having The Knowledge of Good & Evil... is “a gift” from God? A gift that causes “you to choose good or evil, life or death: The choice of evil ends in death, the choice of good ends in life for eternity.

Dude, what books have you been reading? Obviously not the Book of Genesis.

Oh, yes, GOD gave humanity a choice.

The choice was presented to humanity (ALL two of us) in the form of Two Trees, placed PERFECTLY in the center of the Garden of Eden (these Trees could not be missed).

However, “the choice” was certainly not “Good” or “Evil” as you purport. In the center of the garden, GOD certainly did NOT plant: “The Tree of Good” and “The Tree of Evil,” as you seem to be suggesting. To the contrary. In the center of the garden God equally placed: “The Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil” and “The Tree of Life.”

It is from “The Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil” that the Living God warned us never to eat. Never even to touch IT. For, IT is The Knowledge of Good & Evil that leads to Death — to NOTHING. Upon being duped (by Team Darkness) into eating The Knowledge of Good & Evil, we (yes, us humans) invented ALL of those fatal things which are inspired by NOTHING: “Conscience,” which leads to “Judging,” which leads to “Guilt” which leads to “Organized Religion” which leads to “Sin” which leads to DEATH.

Even Paul recognized the last part of this chain reaction. Yet, he wrote about it so flowery and religiously: “For the wages of Sin is DEATH.” That makes it sound like Master Sin is our employer, and the paycheck we get from him is DEATH. Nope. IT is much worse than even Paul could imagine from his backward first century standpoint.

The problem is entirely psychological. The spectacle of our Sin causes us — the Living God’s greatest creation — to see ourselves, “man” and “our fellow man”… as “EVIL.” Self-Deprivation. Which means (according to Team Darkness), “the Living God’s creation is “EVIL.” Which leads to TRUE DEATH — NOTHINGNESS.

It’s a lie, of course. Yet, we are the ones who chose Death. We ate the poison. The Living God is determined to send us an ambulance ride (What’s-Been-Done-For-Us-On-the-Cross) to take us to the Emergency Room. The antidote — a little blue pill — is sitting on the table, where there also sits a glass of water, right in front of us. And, ALL we have to do is truly TAKE it. Instead… what have we chosen? Our choice is (and has been) to blow up the ambulance with a pipe bomb.

We keep choosing Death.

The smarter we think we become, the more Death seems to outsmart us.

 

[The Third One]

Truly accepting What’s-Been-Done-For-Us-On-the-Cross DOES make us impervious to ALL EVIL — for ALL of any EVIL that could possibly touch us (past, present and future) has been taken AWAY.

ALL we have to do is truly accept that it has been taken AWAY.

That’s the power of the human mind.

What’s-Been-Done-For-Us-On-the-Cross is a REAL HANDLE that we can psychologically grab onto which multiplies that power of the mind by the factor of infinity. Such power can move mountains. The shadowy nothingness of “evil” and “sin” is no match for such power.

ScottA, please… listen to me. You are using the huge power of your mind in the wrong direction. You see the True Deliverance from the hole you are sitting in… as “fluff.” You have been “institutionalized” by the prison that you are sitting in (as Brooks was, in “The Shawshank Redemption”). Take a hard look at how you are receiving, yet ANOTHER CHANCE, to be FREE! Only as... an “opportunity for confusion.” “The jailers” have sure made your mind “right” — from the jailors’ perspective. “Yes! Evil CAN touch us! And, yes! Evil DOES touch us! And, there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about it!

How many chances do you think you get in this Life, to be FREE of this self-defeating nonsense? No BS, I am talking "FREE-Indeed."

We were put out of the Garden of Eden… specifically… so that we could not then put forth our hand and also eat from “The Tree of Life.”

It was one or the other, my friend. That was our choice. And, it still is.

Don’t forget about the Tree of Life. Eating from that Tree is our passageway into eternal Life. Our passageway to EVERYTHING. Yes, indeed, we screwed ALL that up by choosing to eat from The Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil.

To this day, the Tree of Life is still standing there, in Eden. Surrounded by “angels of Darkness.”

Care to glimpse a quick peek at the Big Picture going on in the center of the Garden of Eden?

Had we chosen to eat from the Tree of Life rather than from the Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil, to this day, there would be angels of Light guarding a complete circle around the Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil... so that not one of us could reach forth our hand and ever eat from it. Automobiles would have come much sooner. Space travel and time travel, too; for, unencumbered by the notion of Good & Evil, The Knowledge of Heaven & Earth is what exponentially flourishes. Death would be nonexistent. Better yet, to this day, the Living God of Light and His Hosts would be a daily Reality in our physical presence. And, we would ALL, forever, be Living on an Earth-based universe known to ALL as “the Kingdom of Heaven.”

That is not supposition nor “belief” in fairy tales. That is the Truth. The True-to-Life Reality is ALL around us. Plainer than what any geologist can see in the rocks. The evidence is mentally tattooed upon us. We are Living-Proof that our greatest grandparents truly did eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil. No fairy tale.

The Living God never forbade Adam to eat from the Tree of Life. On the contrary, the Lord God clearly told Adam he could FREELY eat of any tree in the garden... with the warned-exception of ever eating the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil.

That is a crucial fact. When the Lord God put Adam and Eve into the Garden of Eden, the fruit of the Tree of Life was not off-limits.

Scott, think about the importance of what that one Truth actually means.

The Tree of Life must have been just as enticing to Adam and Eve as was the Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil, if not more.

Its fruit?

Lovely in appearance.

Availability?

Placed equally in the center of the garden.

Above ALL, one taste gives eternal Life.

Yet, Adam and Eve never touched it.

Why do you suppose?

 

[The Third One]

The answer lay between the lines of Genesis. Adam and Eve presumed the fruit from both trees in the center of the garden was “the no-no” — the indefinable “no-no” (what we would define as, “off-limits”). Eve reveals this fact by how she answers the serpent:

Genesis 3:3 (KJV) “But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst (in the center) of the garden, God hath said, ‘Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.’”

Eve’s statement applies to ALL the fruit in the center of the garden — the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil and the fruit from the Tree of Life.

Her statement has to apply to the fruit from both trees.

Why?

Because there is no fruit of “the tree” (singular) in the center of the garden. God placed both trees — the Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil and the Tree of Life — equally in the center of the garden. (Genesis 2:9)

We can dismiss putting the motives of GOD on trial. Ludicrous audacity. We barely have enough sense to question our own motives. Why did we choose Death — the “Stay-AWAY-From-Tree” (clearly forbidden) — over eternal Life, which we could have FREELY possessed, instantly; yet, we presumed it to be “another Stay-AWAY-From-Tree” (aka: “also forbidden”)?

For the same reason we have killed our trip to the Emergency Room (aka: What’s-Been-Done-For-Us-On-the-Cross).

We keep choosing Death.

The smarter we think we become, the more Death seems to outsmart us.

“Stupid is as stupid does.” Our knowledge of Good & Evil has completely altered the basis of how we perceive ourselves and the universe around us. It morphed our foundation. It bent our imaginations, whispering, “Dismiss your God-given PERFECTION. Look deep, deep into your heart... and find Evil within yourself.” This is the fatal monkey wrench in our thinking. Causing us, first, to imagine Evil.

Then... Evil within ourselves.

And, then... what next? We changed the world around us. As if by rote. We changed Creation. The cold Reality. Our grimmest reaping. We acted upon our imagination. We actually and physically brought evil into this world.

Checkmate.

We have chosen to be kidnapped. And, we continue at this. Quite agreeable kidnap victims, we are. Locked AWAY in a hole for so long. Senseless. We willingly accept it. We have completely forgotten our home. We have forgotten our Factory Setting.

Bah! Forget such infantile naivety. Welcome Death!

We continue to do so. We continue — into our deaths — as the patsy of NOTHING.

We make the world think the ambulance ride is exclusive to members of a country club. (Thanks, Church) Then, we let the air out of the ambulance tires so no one can be taken to Emergency. Then, to insure the certainty of death — our certainty of death — we blow up the ambulance with a pipe bomb.

Not only have we destroyed our emergency transport (thanks to ALL the “ifs,” “ands” and “buts”) moreover, there is no viable cure waiting for us at the end of the ambulance ride. We have psychologically destroyed the psychological cure. Even worse, we insure, religiously, that the cure stays psychologically destroyed. Need I speak plainly? Or have you already spoken plainly enough for both of us — for ALL of us.

We have made certain that what’s been done for us on the cross remains killed, wrapped up and buried in the ground.

I beg of you. Open your eyes. We are still stabbing at it. Pounding more spikes into the ground after it. Shoveling on top of it even more dirt. More ifs. More ands. More buts. More difficulties. More falsehood.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

and now thinking about it further
What @The Third One said about taking it to the curb. To me helps with: to the lake of fire to be destroyed; take it out to be burned up. I remember being told that the word says it is those fearful that go into the fire first…I was told this in relation to how much I need to get over panic-attacks and anxiety and fear; if not I could very well be one of those the Word speaks of that are thrown into the fire first.

Do you see the so-called help there? “what …!!” :you are telling me I’m the worse of all and will be the first God gets rid of by a tossing me in the lake of fire??? This Hyped my panic-attacks, anxiety and fear to a whole new level…sky-high and thru the roof…::: like at the fair stepping up to play that game..when that hammer comes down and that bell is struck ..IF you are strong enough…but this was no getting your choosing of a stuffed animal.

actually now though… I’m considering it as beautiful and helpful: fearfulness first tossed in and burned up in the presence of God. No longer seeing this as a bad thing, but “Yes Please God, I agree, get rid of it.”

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
Break the cycle of fear, self-doubt, and insecurity through his word rightly divided in context.

Knowledge is the input.
Understanding is the connection.
Wisdom is the out put of knowing when to use your understanding of the knowledge to benefit yourself or others.

Everything can be resolved through him, IF we just trust & put it in his hands.
Praying 4 you.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Please people,
Do not be fooled by the appearance of the light, even the devil can transform himself into such.

Mark those who walk contrary to the Word in an elited, self-promotory, ah-ha way.

God reveals himself in order by HIS WORD, not the declarations of man!

We must be as children; in innocence, in trust of our GOD, believing what HE instructs in his Word.

We are in the last days and many false ppl are coming into view. Do not be deceived by flattery, or even rebuke ; in like LET ME SHOW YOU WHAT REALLY IT IS GOD IS SAYING !

Study the Word for yourself with the Spirit of God's leading, pray for enlightenment of the Word by his Spirit, and simply TRUST GOD !

 

[ScottA]

@ScottA boldly states:

“Being born into this world and coming to the knowledge of good and evil is to be born into a choice.”

Question: Are you actually purporting that “The Knowledge of Good & Evil” is a GOOD thing?

Yes, Scott… I guess you are saying that. For, you go to say, “That is what God has done.” and “It’s a gift.”

The gift from God is having no knowledge of “right” and “wrong.” For, ALL of us are born into the world in that condition and remain so as little children until we become infected with The Knowledge of “right” and “wrong.” At that point — exactly at that point — our innocence is truly gone.

This is the God’s-honest Truth. Somewhere between being a FREE, pure, PERFECTLY GOOD little child and becoming what you are now, you took on a yoke. Rarely does it happen before turning one. Usually, between one and two. Likely, no later than three or four. At some point, you gained your first knowledge of Good & Evil... and then, immediately, your knowledge of Good & Evil mutated into super-drive, like a cancerous brain virus.

You gained IT from everyone. What started in Adam and Eve (from one juicy bite) you gained the super-toxic, exponentially-multiplied variant of IT — from ALL. You gained IT from mom and dad, siblings, grandparents, friends, neighbors and teachers. You gained IT from books, plays, movies, TV and you certainly gained IT from the Internet. You gained IT from the entire world around you. And, when you were finally introduced to Organized Religion, your knowledge of Good & Evil became not only “God-endorsed” but ratified and put to freaking music.

Hand in hand with gaining The Knowledge of Good & Evil, you bought into the concept of imperfection. And... then... you contracted the full-blown disease. You became irreversibly psychologically ill (irreversible outside of a “miracle”).

Prognosis: Terminal. You bought into and accepted the concept of “SIN” — the concept of right... & “WRONG.” You bought into this corrupting concept of the mind and (along with applying this concept to everything) you had no choice but to apply IT to yourself.

Let us clearly identify the fatal problem. Deprecation of self. It is a human problem beyond pandemic. IT is practically universal. IT is humanity’s problem. And, so (quite likely) IT is your problem. Your self-destroying self-diagnosis of self. A falsehood you came to truly accept, 100%, with no ifs, ands or buts.

There is both Good & Evil in humans — in ALL people. Yes, I have come to truly accept this as “Truth.” This means that SOME portion of WHAT I AM... is evil.

Brain cancer. More powerful than an atomic bomb.

Scott, are you seriously suggesting that God did this to us? That having The Knowledge of Good & Evil... is “a gift” from God? A gift that causes “you to choose good or evil, life or death: The choice of evil ends in death, the choice of good ends in life for eternity.

Dude, what books have you been reading? Obviously not the Book of Genesis.

Oh, yes, GOD gave humanity a choice.

The choice was presented to humanity (ALL two of us) in the form of Two Trees, placed PERFECTLY in the center of the Garden of Eden (these Trees could not be missed).

However, “the choice” was certainly not “Good” or “Evil” as you purport. In the center of the garden, GOD certainly did NOT plant: “The Tree of Good” and “The Tree of Evil,” as you seem to be suggesting. To the contrary. In the center of the garden God equally placed: “The Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil” and “The Tree of Life.”

It is from “The Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil” that the Living God warned us never to eat. Never even to touch IT. For, IT is The Knowledge of Good & Evil that leads to Death — to NOTHING. Upon being duped (by Team Darkness) into eating The Knowledge of Good & Evil, we (yes, us humans) invented ALL of those fatal things which are inspired by NOTHING: “Conscience,” which leads to “Judging,” which leads to “Guilt” which leads to “Organized Religion” which leads to “Sin” which leads to DEATH.

Even Paul recognized the last part of this chain reaction. Yet, he wrote about it so flowery and religiously: “For the wages of Sin is DEATH.” That makes it sound like Master Sin is our employer, and the paycheck we get from him is DEATH. Nope. IT is much worse than even Paul could imagine from his backward first century standpoint.

The problem is entirely psychological. The spectacle of our Sin causes us — the Living God’s greatest creation — to see ourselves, “man” and “our fellow man”… as “EVIL.” Self-Deprivation. Which means (according to Team Darkness), “the Living God’s creation is “EVIL.” Which leads to TRUE DEATH — NOTHINGNESS.

It’s a lie, of course. Yet, we are the ones who chose Death. We ate the poison. The Living God is determined to send us an ambulance ride (What’s-Been-Done-For-Us-On-the-Cross) to take us to the Emergency Room. The antidote — a little blue pill — is sitting on the table, where there also sits a glass of water, right in front of us. And, ALL we have to do is truly TAKE it. Instead… what have we chosen? Our choice is (and has been) to blow up the ambulance with a pipe bomb.

We keep choosing Death.

The smarter we think we become, the more Death seems to outsmart us.

"Many shall come..." and here you are rambling on venting your pet peeves and philosophies with a different gospel, which is wrong. Not entirely but including just enough truth to seem plausible. Yet to blather on so is not unlike after Jesus had told His disciples He would be killed, and Peter said, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!” To which Jesus answered and said, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

Likewise, you too are not so much mindful of the things of God, but of the things of men...for which I will tell you, you are wrong about what God has done, for it is written:

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.’
​

Thus, it is not as you the self-proclaimed Third One says, not that things have gone terribly wrong, but rather that God has intentionally created it so--so that "all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose." And no, Jesus did not leave us "FREEDOM" (as you say), but rather as He said, “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword." Which He explained to Paul (whom you despise) was for the [intended] purpose of prolonging the times "until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled", and because His "strength is made perfect in weakness.”

Nor are babes born "innocent" but "each according to his kind."

 

[VictoryinJesus]

"Many shall come..." and here you are rambling on venting your pet peeves and philosophies with a different gospel, which is wrong. Not entirely but including just enough truth to seem plausible. Yet to blather on so is not unlike after Jesus had told His disciples He would be killed, and Peter said, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!” To which Jesus answered and said, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

Likewise, you too are not so much mindful of the things of God, but of the things of men...for which I will tell you, you are wrong about what God has done, for it is written:

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.’
​

Thus, it is not as you the self-proclaimed Third One says, not that things have gone terribly wrong, but rather that God has intentionally created it so--so that "all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose." And no, Jesus did not leave us "FREEDOM" (as you say), but rather as He said, “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword." Which He explained to Paul (whom you despise) was for the [intended] purpose of prolonging the times "until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled", and because His "strength is made perfect in weakness.”

Nor are babes born "innocent" but "each according to his kind."

I’m still sticking with when they wanted to call down fire to destroy, saying, “God, that one over there doesn’t follow us.” Where Jesus replied, “he that is not against Me, is for Me.” To be honest I’m struggle with many things said in the thread, but I also hear, I’m paraphrasing… “get alone with God and talk to Him. Stop going to man made religions and why not just go to God directly?” Or at least that is what I hear. I don’t hear evil being “change your mind”. If I’m being honest again …you have mentioned having been given a vision or traveling higher and so does @The Third One say something similar. When both of you say opposite, dissing one another for being “wrong”; how is one to know which is being forthcoming, and which is not? Personally, I wish you both were in agreement on this one thing: Christ. Then I might not be so confused…on the sidelines watching as two tear each others work or progress apart…which seems like no progress at all.