Imagine a World with no Christians!

[James Macbeth]

Thank you, EWQ.

For Jerome, I think the meaning ended up coming out the same as in the Greek texts, only he was inverting the phrases and changing the word usage somewhat, presumably to make the teaching more clearly understandable.


James, if you are interpreting "but we shall not all be changed" to mean he is refuting the notion of a transformation in the air, then you are operating under the assumption that there was a heresy already out there to that effect, and that Paul (according to Jerome) was refuting it. This assumes:

1. that the supposedly "false" teaching was already being taught somewhere by someone,
2. that Paul was here refuting it, and
3. that Jerome, in keeping with what Paul presumably taught, was likewise denouncing a transformation in the air as well.

What would be the evidence to support these contentions?

We shall all rise again (judgement), but we shall not all be changed (not all will be saved).

I have not studied this before, I just noticed the difference in Text.

One is in error, and the other is not.

Can you cross-reference your Greek version to another verse in the Gospels?

Because I can.

Can you quote Church Fathers saying what you say?

Because I can...

 

[Hidden In Him]

We shall all rise again (judgement), but we shall not all be changed (not all will be saved).

I have not studied this before, I just noticed the difference in Text.

One is in error, and the other is not.

Can you cross-reference your Greek version to another verse in the Gospels?

Because I can.

Can you quote Church Fathers saying what you say?

Because I can...

Ok, that makes for a more interesting discussion. And of course you can support that view from other Biblical passages. The question is whether or not the doctrine of the rapture is supported elsewhere in the NT and in the Fathers.

I'm staining a fence right now, so if no one else addresses it I will later.

Thanks for clarifying your position.

 

[ewq1938]

You know what I meant...

And I when I asked you the first time if you were talking about the holy Ghost, you said no.

Now you're changing your story?

No, you are confused.

1Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Spirit here is the spirit every human has. In addition, if one is born again they can also have the Holy Spirit.

 

[ewq1938]

That's in the Original Latin Bible.
Look it up in the Douai Rheims.
Not my words.
All your quotes are from corrupted Greek manuscripts.
So simple.

No, the three translations are corrupt. The vast majority are correct.

 

[ewq1938]

In your haste and paste you just quoted the Wycliffe Bible... Which agrees with me...
Focus!

So? There was no haste, I copied and pasted some text but that version uses slightly different text. It's a fact that Paul wrote some would survive the Great Tribulation to be changed and raptured and that all the saints would be changed. The dead change into immortals and the living change into immortals.

 

[Enoch111]

Can you provide evidence?

I need to clarify what I said earlier:
1. Jerome revised the existing Old Latin Gospels probably using Codex Vaticanus.
2. It is not certain whether he revised the rest of the NT or simply used existing Old Latin versions.
3. He made an original translation of the Old Testament from Hebrew, but did not stay strictly with the Masoretic Text. He resorted to the corruptions of Aquila, Symmachus, Theodotian etc as well as the Septuagint (just like the modern versions).
4. He incorporated the "deuterocanonical books" from the Septuagint even though he knew they were not inspired.
You can find most of these details here: Library : The History of the Latin Vulgate

I do not believe that Augustine said anything derogatory about the Catholic church, since he himself was a leading Catholic.

 

[James Macbeth]

No, you are confused.

1Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Spirit here is the spirit every human has. In addition, if one is born again they can also have the Holy Spirit.

Don't make me pull up the quote you said...

Just admit it your making this up on the fly. Your embarrassing yourself.

Ok, start from scratch.
What is the whole spirit? What is the soul?
According to you and this verse?

 

[Timtofly]

What language did Romans primary speak? It's so simple. I bet you never knew Corinth was a Roman town...
Focus, why would Saint Paul write in Greek to a town made up of mostly Romans?
So simple.
Did he not speak any language? Why only Greek?

This is a horrible leap in logic.

Can you answer why Josephus the personal historian of Titus himself wrote his works in Greek, while living in Rome?

Latin is more of a dead language than Hebrew or Greek. Can you state the difference between Hebrew used today and how it was used in the 1st century? The question should be why was the NT not written in Hebrew, and still preserved today. People wrote in Greek because it was the language most used in every day life throughout the Roman Empire.

Latin on the other hand was the language of the Roman armies, and used by retired soldiers. It was never forced on the empire. In fact it just evolved out of existence about as fast as it evolved as a major language. It lived and died through the "brute force" of the Roman military.

Paul did not write Corinthians to the Roman military. He wrote it to the Greek speaking church.

That the alledged church in Rome kept everything in Latin is not a fluke. Latin is the language of the military. Rome is still the military bastion of the early church. In fact it was Constantine who wanted to make Christianity into a state government. Only a military mindset has kept Latin preserved in Rome to this day. They now speak Italian in Italy.

 

[James Macbeth]

So? There was no haste, I copied and pasted some text but that version uses slightly different text. It's a fact that Paul wrote some would survive the Great Tribulation to be changed and raptured and that all the saints would be changed. The dead change into immortals and the living change into immortals.

Your are using TERENCE P. NOBLE edition of the Wycliffe Bible.

I have a real one and will post it when I get home.

 

[James Macbeth]

This is a horrible leap in logic.

Can you answer why Josephus the personal historian of Titus himself wrote his works in Greek, while living in Rome?

Latin is more of a dead language than Hebrew or Greek. Can you state the difference between Hebrew used today and how it was used in the 1st century? The question should be why was the NT not written in Hebrew, and still preserved today. People wrote in Greek because it was the language most used in every day life throughout the Roman Empire.

Latin on the other hand was the language of the Roman armies, and used by retired soldiers. It was never forced on the empire. In fact it just evolved out of existence about as fast as it evolved as a major language. It lived and died through the "brute force" of the Roman military.

Paul did not write Corinthians to the Roman military. He wrote it to the Greek speaking church.

That the alledged church in Rome kept everything in Latin is not a fluke. Latin is the language of the military. Rome is still the military bastion of the early church. In fact it was Constantine who wanted to make Christianity into a state government. Only a military mindset has kept Latin preserved in Rome to this day. They now speak Italian in Italy.

Hogwash.

You can get Josephus writings in both languages. The Romans used Greek scribes as slaves in scriptoriums.

The New Testament was written in Aramaic... A descendant of Hebrew...for the Jews, not Greeks.

Paul wore to the people who lived in Corinth, which history shows were mostly Romans who spoke Latin. They rebuilt the city in 44AD.
Saint Paul wrote his letters around 50-54 AD. Why would he write them in Greek, when he could speak any language.

Latin was very much alive then.

The rest of your story is BS.

 

[ewq1938]

Don't make me pull up the quote you said...

I insist since you are making false accusations.

 

[Hidden In Him]

We shall all rise again (judgement), but we shall not all be changed (not all will be saved).

I have not studied this before, I just noticed the difference in Text.

One is in error, and the other is not.

Can you cross-reference your Greek version to another verse in the Gospels?

Because I can.

Can you quote Church Fathers saying what you say?

Because I can...

Alright, I did a little searching, and the following are fairly clear references to the rapture of the church (not their simply dying). Irenaeus taught a pre-tribulation rapture and Victorinus taught Pre-wrath. Both of these writers predate Jerome:

Irenaeus’ (120-202), Against Heresies, Book 5.
- Here, he uses Enoch as an example of the Rapture of the just/Church. He clearly states the Rapture occurs before the Tribulation, and separates the Rapture from the Second Coming and Resurrection of the Just. Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp (who was a disciple of John the Apostle), was the first to detail prophetic events after the writing of the New Testament, and gave the Church the first system of premillennial interpretation.36
The first citation was previously mentioned in the “Uses of Harpazo” section and comes from chapter 5, section 1, “For Enoch, when he pleased God, was translated in the same body in which he did please Him, thus pointing out by anticipation the translation of the just.”

In chapter 29, at the end of section 1, “And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be’. For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome, they are crowned with incorruption.” The “this” mentioned in the text, that the Church is caught up from, is clearly the “Tribulation.” Then, Irenaeus continues on in section 2 of chapter 29 and sections 1-3 of chapter 30 to talk about the Beast and Antichrist. And at the end of section 4 of chapter 30, he concludes with the Second Coming, “sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is the rest, the hallowed seventh day.”

Victorinus’ (d. 303/304) Commentary on the Apocalypse.
From 6:14, “. . . and the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up]. For the heaven to be rolled away, this is that the Church shall be taken away.” And from 15:1, “. . . and I saw another great and wonderful sign, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is completed the indignation of God.] For the wrath of God always strikes the obstinate people with seven plagues, that is, perfectly, as it is said in Leviticus; and these shall be in the last time, when the Church shall have gone out of the midst.”

 

[James Macbeth]

No, the three translations are corrupt. The vast majority are correct.

Well that's just your opinion.
I can cross-reference other verses in the Gospels based off the ones translated from Latin.
You can't.

 

[James Macbeth]

Alright, I did a little searching, and the following are fairly clear references to the rapture of the church (not their simply dying). Irenaeus taught a pre-tribulation rapture and Victorinus taught Pre-wrath. Both of these writers predate Jerome:

Irenaeus’ (120-202), Against Heresies, Book 5.
- Here, he uses Enoch as an example of the Rapture of the just/Church. He clearly states the Rapture occurs before the Tribulation, and separates the Rapture from the Second Coming and Resurrection of the Just. Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp (who was a disciple of John the Apostle), was the first to detail prophetic events after the writing of the New Testament, and gave the Church the first system of premillennial interpretation.36
The first citation was previously mentioned in the “Uses of Harpazo” section and comes from chapter 5, section 1, “For Enoch, when he pleased God, was translated in the same body in which he did please Him, thus pointing out by anticipation the translation of the just.”

In chapter 29, at the end of section 1, “And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be’. For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome, they are crowned with incorruption.” The “this” mentioned in the text, that the Church is caught up from, is clearly the “Tribulation.” Then, Irenaeus continues on in section 2 of chapter 29 and sections 1-3 of chapter 30 to talk about the Beast and Antichrist. And at the end of section 4 of chapter 30, he concludes with the Second Coming, “sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is the rest, the hallowed seventh day.”

Victorinus’ (d. 303/304) Commentary on the Apocalypse.
From 6:14, “. . . and the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up]. For the heaven to be rolled away, this is that the Church shall be taken away.” And from 15:1, “. . . and I saw another great and wonderful sign, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is completed the indignation of God.] For the wrath of God always strikes the obstinate people with seven plagues, that is, perfectly, as it is said in Leviticus; and these shall be in the last time, when the Church shall have gone out of the midst.”

Ok that's all good, but what does that have to do with 1 Corinthians 15:51.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Ok that's all good, but what does that have to do with 1 Corinthians 15:51.

Come, come. It establishes that the rapture was being taught by the early church prior to Jerome's translation of the epistle into Latin, and therefore gives credence to the traditional interpretation of the church on the rapture; that this is what the NT writers were likewise teaching, as is apparent from the Greek texts.

 

[James Macbeth]

I insist since you are making false accusations.

↑
Whats the difference?

Man has a body like an animal, and an individual soul like and Angel. Body & soul = man. Why an extra spirit? You mean the holy Ghost?

No, every person has a body, soul and spirit.

 

[James Macbeth]

Come, come. It establishes that the rapture was being taught by the early church prior to Jerome's translation of the epistle into Latin, and therefore gives credence to the traditional interpretation of the church on the rapture; that this is what the NT writers were likewise teaching, as is apparent from the Greek texts.

Maybe. I'll look into it.
I mostly study the Gospels.

 

[ewq1938]

↑
Whats the difference?

Man has a body like an animal, and an individual soul like and Angel. Body & soul = man. Why an extra spirit? You mean the holy Ghost?

No, every person has a body, soul and spirit.

Don't change the subject. You accused me of changing my mind and said you could quote me so I challenge you to do that, or apologize.

 

[James Macbeth]

Don't change the subject. You accused me of changing my mind and said you could quote me so I challenge you to do that, or apologize.

I just reposted what you said!
I said you mean the holy Ghost.
You said no.

 

[James Macbeth]

No, every person has a body, soul and spirit.

1Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

See this is what you said...