How did Paganism get into the church?

[Jude Thaddeus]

@Hobie

"There is not another church in the world so dedicated to teaching salvation by good works as the church of Rome. It is pagan. Salvation is by grace through faith. Eph. 2:8, 9 (Catholic translation)"

Catholic Merit Vs. Distorted Caricatures (James McCarthy)

Anti-Catholic polemicist James McCarthy bears false witness, in distorting & caricaturing the true Catholic doctrine of merit by taking isolated Catholic statements out of context.

www.patheos.com

. First, though: some preliminary observations. As usual, McCarthy (along with many other Calvinist anti-Catholics) is unwilling or unable to understand the relationship of human free will to God’s grace. We believe we can cooperate with God’s grace in order to “merit.” Yet that very merit is itself completely an act of God’s grace. Here is some more relevant information to consider:

The Second Council of Orange (529 A.D.), accepted as dogma by the Catholic Church, dogmatically taught in its Canon 7:

If anyone asserts that we can, by our natural powers, think as we ought, or choose any good pertaining to the salvation of eternal life . . . without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit . . . he is misled by a heretical spirit . . . [goes on to cite Jn 15:5, 2 Cor 3:5]

Likewise, the ecumenical Council of Trent (1545-63): Chapter 5, Decree on Justification:

. . . Man . . . is not able, by his own free-will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight.

Canon I on Justification:

If anyone saith that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

The existence of a measure of human free will in order for man to cooperate with God’s grace does not reduce inevitably and necessarily to Semi-Pelagianism, as Luther, Calvin, and present-day Calvinists wrongly charge. The Catholic view is a third way. Our “meritorious actions” are always necessarily preceded and caused and crowned and bathed in God’s enabling grace. But this doesn’t wipe out our cooperation, which is not intrinsically meritorious in the sense that it derives from us and not God . . . Second Orange again:

The reward given for good works is not won by reason of actions which precede grace, but grace, which is unmerited, precedes actions in order that they may be accomplished meritoriously.

Catholic theologian Ludwig Ott describes the Catholic view:

As God’s grace is the presupposition and foundation of supernatural good works, by which man merits eternal life, so salutary works are, at the same time gifts of God and meritorious acts of man. (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Rockford, Illinois: TAN Books, 1974 [orig. 1952], 264)

St. Augustine wrote:

What merit of man is there before grace by which he can achieve grace, as only grace works every one of our good merits in us, and as God, when He crowns our merits, crowns nothing else but His own gifts? (Ep. 194, 5, 19; in Ott, 265)

The Lord has made Himself a debtor, not by receiving, but by promising. Man cannot say to Him, “Give back what thou hast received” but only “Give what thou hast promised.” (Enarr. in Ps 83, 16; in Ott, 267)

The concept of merit and its corollary reward is well-supported in Scripture (Mt 5:12; 19:17, 21, 29; 25:21; 25:34 ff.; Lk 6:38; Rom 2:6; 1 Cor 3:8; 9:17; Col 3:24; Heb 6:10; 10:35; 11:6; 2 Tim 4:8; Eph 6:8).

skipping several paragraphs for the sake of brevity...
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This is, therefore, apparently deliberate misrepresentation on McCarthy’s part, (who knows better, but lies anyway) and that is a serious sin — a violation of the Ten Commandments and even basic pagan and secular ethical precepts.

Whatever McCarthy or other anti-Catholics think of our theology, their own Christian tradition (as well as Jesus Himself) condemn them for slander and lying, whether we are Christian “brothers” or not, in their thinking. As we indeed are their brothers in Christ, their sin is all the greater. McCarthy’s polemical anti-Catholic video has also been clearly shown by Catholic apologetics magazine This Rock to be slanderous and grossly inaccurate. Let us hope and pray that he will repent, for his sake, and for the sake of the thousands he is leading astray.

 

[Hobie]

@Hobie

"There is not another church in the world so dedicated to teaching salvation by good works as the church of Rome. It is pagan. Salvation is by grace through faith. Eph. 2:8, 9 (Catholic translation)"

I have not read through 6 pages, but I don't believe that is true. A child enters the church at water baptism and is therefore saved, but must perform works to stay saved or spend some time in pugatory. I have had no contact whatsoever with the RCC.

They are saved by faith, the works are the results..

 

[Hobie]

Hello Hobie,

to answer the topic question:

It didn't! The Church conquered paganism...

'capture every thought for Christ'

Pax et Bonum

Then why is it still here, go to St Peter's and tell us what adorns it...

 

[Grailhunter]

How did paganism get in to the church?

I have already answered this….but the short of it is….
There are no pagan religious beliefs in Christianity.
Mostly what people mistake as pagan beliefs are the results of the pagan culture converting to Christianity.

There were several pagan cultures from several regions that converted to Christianity in the first century and beyond, they where called Gentile-Christians. The Jewish-Christian sect which included most of the Apostles did not last long. This sect mostly died out by the end of the first century and the Gentiles-Christians took the helm of Christianity by the end the first century. The churches- congregations that Paul interacted with were Gentile-Christians.

The Gentile-Christians converted their religious beliefs but did not abandon their cultures. Paul never told them that they had to. Then again some of their seasonal celebrations and customs were Christianized.

The only true pagan custom that was full adopted by Christians was the wedding ceremony which was adopted by the Protestants in the 16th century. In the 16th century the Protestants made a wedding ceremony a requirement to be married. Before that neither the Bible nor the Catholics required a wedding ceremony to be married.

Now if you look at some of the customs in Christian wedding ceremonies you will find the customs of the Gentile-Christians, things like the rings, vows, balloons, the wedding cake, bells, rice, parts of the wedding dress, tying things behind the car to make noise etc. Of course this was a wonderful decision by the Protestants to adopt this custom.

The dates of the holidays are another topic but there are no Christian holidays that require Christians to worship pagan gods. No requirements to even observe them. Even the custom of Easter, the rabbit and colored eggs where a custom of Gentile-Christians and originate at different times, some of them pretty modern. Martin Luther indorsed the hunt of colored eggs.

 

[Hobie]

You

How did paganism get in to the church?

I have already answered this….but the short of it is….
There are no pagan religious beliefs in Christianity.
Mostly what people mistake as pagan beliefs are the results of the pagan culture converting to Christianity.

There were several pagan cultures from several regions that converted to Christianity in the first century and beyond, they where called Gentile-Christians. The Jewish-Christian sect which included most of the Apostles did not last long. This sect mostly died out by the end of the first century and the Gentiles-Christians took the helm of Christianity by the end the first century. The churches- congregations that Paul interacted with were Gentile-Christians.

The Gentile-Christians converted their religious beliefs but did not abandon their cultures. Paul never told them that they had to. Then again some of their seasonal celebrations and customs were Christianized.

The only true pagan custom that was full adopted by Christians was the wedding ceremony which was adopted by the Protestants in the 16th century. In the 16th century the Protestants made a wedding ceremony a requirement to be married. Before that neither the Bible nor the Catholics required a wedding ceremony to be married.

Now if you look at some of the customs in Christian wedding ceremonies you will find the customs of the Gentile-Christians, things like the rings, vows, balloons, the wedding cake, bells, rice, parts of the wedding dress, tying things behind the car to make noise etc. Of course this was a wonderful decision by the Protestants to adopt this custom.

The dates of the holidays are another topic but there are no Christian holidays that require Christians to worship pagan gods. No requirements to even observe them. Even the custom of Easter, the rabbit and colored eggs where a custom of Gentile-Christians and originate at different times, some of them pretty modern. Martin Luther indorsed the hunt of colored eggs.

You must be joking, as I saw up in the hills above the main cathedral in my visit to the old country, the pagans doing the same exact worship of idols, burning candles to their gods and use of rites and rituals that were in the church down below. Need to open your eyes and ears my friend...

 

[Grailhunter]

You

You must be joking, as I saw up in the hills above the main cathedral in my visit to the old country, the pagans doing the same exact worship of idols, burning candles to their gods and use of rites and rituals that were in the church down below. Need to open your eyes and ears my friend...

People see what they want to see and hear what they want to here. But Christianity is not Pagan.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Paganism got into the Church because of people who are all about nonsense like someone said a word that is not in line with their gods ? gods like the lord cussing god ! he is on top of the agenda ! why is that one may ask ? well it's because they are only Religious freeks that do not have enough Grace to see past such things. it's all about the words said, not the issue of what is being tryed to be convayed !

They can not be on the level with anyone ? but their own ilk !

I worked with the skumbags and all from the lowest to the filthy rich and all and who did i look at as the worst people, was the rich toff's who had no excuse to use people like they do, with cunning and not to mention their wife hate them and their children hate him, they had no respect for such because they do not have respect for anyone.
But i talk to anyone regardless, i do not care what they say, the type of words they use ! that's not the issue ! it's the intent that is the issue !
A mates daughter said something that was stupid to me, it was like, why are you saying that to me for ? that's outright rude and disrespecful, that's the diffrence ! Do not be stupid nasty or says idiot things.

Another mate has a brat kid, he likes to punch on ! come up and punch you in the back when you are sitting down and he calles his dad everything cussing and all full on, but what i do is just grab his fist and give a little twist, just enough to let him know, to be careful, but i am always nice to him. i do not say anything about his words ! that's his mothers and dads job !

But Paganism is rife in the Church nowadays, it always their, but the priest are now going along with it.

I would go working for the School Church with others who have Children their, and i would put something forward at times, most times it was scoffed at, because such was Christianity. They knew it was, but they sure as hell had no regards for such !
Even the stupid Priest was greatly offended at my questioning of him ! like is that biblical to say what he was saying in the Church ? No it was not at all and he knew it ! but he could so easy get away with saying any stupid idiot thing. He never said foul language but if he did he would of been pecked for such as that directly, because that is what Pagans are all about ! looking to be seen as such to idiots ! Not God in fact !!!
What truly maters is what is in relation to God, Period !

If people look down on you, because what is demanded of you in your Job, is below them ! they would never be seen doing such ? and years ago toffs who seen a man pick up a part off the floor, nearly fainted ! because they thought he was one of them ! then they worked to destroy him. because he was not seen to be their Class in fact. they never cussed ! for they never had no reason to !

It's the intent, that is the issue ! but Malice is a capital Sin.

When was it that you all heard that Malice is a dreadful thing, that we should work to drive out our lives totaly !

We hear childish nonsense like childish race card played by the Government and Media, they claim to fix the future by Nazi like stand over Laws etc ? but how is This ! when they can just use the word Malice ? Like do not use Malic against anyone period ! and to call such out when anyone uses such ! That fixes the whole Key to so many issues !

But why do they not demand a simple golden rule like 'Malice' Will not be tolerated period ! Well they have no regards malice for they are evil ! So they will not use the word !

 

[Hobie]

People see what they want to see and hear what they want to here. But Christianity is not Pagan.

Yes, I hear you, but the facts still speak for themselves.. Analysis: Why Amazon synod's 'Pachamama' took a dip

 

[face2face]

There are no pagan religious beliefs in Christianity.

I think the Lord will have a slightly different view to you when he comes. I'm amazed you can make such a claim and think you know the Lord and his teachings.

F2F

 

[face2face]

2 Thessalonians 2:3-9
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

And do you know roughly what started it?

In AD124 (roughly) it was the formulation of the doctrine of the immortality of the soul. (Platonic arguments!)

Can you imagine how many false teachings have been devised from this single lie?

The mind boggles at the thought

to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; Romans 2:7

If you want to know the next two doctrines formed in AD124 let me know!

F2F

 

[Lizbeth]

Constantine.

Amen. It comes in through the flesh and it's wisdom, the wisdom of the world. We must not follow Constantine's example.......must be not unequally yoked with unbelieves but come out from among them and be ye separate

 

[Grailhunter]

Yes, I hear you, but the facts still speak for themselves.. Analysis: Why Amazon synod's 'Pachamama' took a dip

Yes the facts speak the truth.

 

[Grailhunter]

I think the Lord will have a slightly different view to you when he comes. I'm amazed you can make such a claim and think you know the Lord and his teachings.

F2F

There are no pagan religious beliefs in Christianity.
This is a fact.
We do not worship Pagan gods.

 

[face2face]

There are no pagan religious beliefs in Christianity.
This is a fact.
We do not worship Pagan gods.

This does not insult your faith and confidence or your sincerity but there are many gods in Christianity today.

 

[Grailhunter]

This does not insult your faith and confidence or your sincerity but there are many gods in Christianity today.

Well you have God the Father Yahweh.
But that does not mean that Yeshua and the Holy Spirit are Pagan.

 

[Runningman]

How did Paganism get into the church?​

It possibly happened when the pagans influenced Christians. It didn't happen overnight, but gradually, step by step, a few ideas here and there crept their way into the church. It was bound to happen because people are influenced by ideas and sometimes can't separate biases, beliefs, and wishful thinking from facts. It happens all the time, not just in Christianity, but with other religions and secular philosophies. People influence each other, and over time, perspectives, worldviews, and interpretations of things change.

There is a complex political history about how the majority of the church became what it is now, but it didn't happen organically, nor does it appear to have been guided by God. Perhaps the most obvious example of pagan influence on the church is Rome, which still remains the centralized hotbed of pagan influence over Christianity. The Roman Catholics spawned the Protestants, who have very few doctrinal differences from their Catholic sister church.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

There are no pagan religious beliefs in Christianity.
This is a fact.
We do not worship Pagan gods.

They do in fact ! it's everywhere with in the people who claim to be christians, just talk to anyone of them and you will find out, that they are totaly Pagans, just with a dash of what they think christianity is.

Not to mention what an atheist thinks is Christianity is wrong in fact ! for they are looking at idiots, who the atheist thinks is a Christian.

For if a person truly knew who Christ Jesus is all about, then they would be a Christian in fact !

Most people who cliam to be a christian sure as Hell love all of their Pagan BS.

 

[Grailhunter]

They do in fact ! it's everywhere with in the people who claim to be christians, just talk to anyone of them and you will find out, that they are totaly Pagans, just with a dash of what they think christianity is.

Not to mention what an atheist thinks is Christianity is wrong in fact ! for they are looking at idiots, who the atheist thinks is a Christian.

For if a person truly knew who Christ Jesus is all about, then they would be a Christian in fact !

Most people who cliam to be a christian sure as Hell love all of their Pagan BS.

Be more specific.

 

[face2face]

Well you have God the Father Yahweh.
But that does not mean that Yeshua and the Holy Spirit are Pagan.

Correct, but the teaching of the immortality of a soul, the pre-existence of Christ and the Substitutionary sacrifice all contributed to the start of falling away of Christianity into paganism.

What it means it the method of atonement has been lost for now.

I could list many more if you wish - there are a lot!

F2F

 

[Grailhunter]

Correct, but the teaching of the immortality of a soul, the pre-existence of Christ and the Substitutionary sacrifice all contributed to the start of falling away of Christianity into paganism.

What it means it the method of atonement has been lost for now.

I could list many more if you wish - there are a lot!

F2F

Beliefs right or wrong but I do not see any Pagan here or anybody worshiping a Pagan god.