How are we to reckon ourselves as being dead to sin?

[Jim B]

The Penal substitution theory goes something like this: we all owe God a butt load of punishment for our sins. The only way to settle accounts is for an infinite being such as Jesus to pay for all the sins of the world. (I don't think the Bible teaches this.)

You don't think that the Bible teaches that Jesus has paid the penalty for all sins?

 

[marks]

I’ve heard before the word is inexhaustible. Unless I misunderstood; inexhaustible in ways the word speaks to us. Yesterday. Today. And Tomorrow.

But it doesn't change what it says, nor what it means.

Much love!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Do you think I pulled out two verses and harped on them? You don’t see any connection between that made with the hands of men and that which is made without hands and of God …as the two births Christ spoke to nicodemus of? One from beneath and passed down through generations of men…and One given from above and of God? Made without the works of men’s hands?

I am sorry, I am still talking about 1 cor 12. and the body of Christ.

Jesus told nicodemus how to be born again. and what would be the price of that payment.

do you remember what Jesus said?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If you still say no…
John 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Are you a master of Israel, and know not these things?

What was Jesus answer to Him, Can you explain that to us?

 

[Waiting on him]

I guess for Jesus to have executed the full law of Moses he’d have to have killed all of them. For their lack of fulfillment.

 

[Episkopos]

Mercy of God?

Lev 16:

The Day of Atonement​

16 Now the Lord spoke to Moses after the death of the two sons of Aaron, when they offered profane fire before the Lord, and died; 2 and the Lord said to Moses: “Tell Aaron your brother not to come at just any time into the Holy Place inside the veil, before the mercy seat which is on the ark, lest he die; for I will appear in the cloud above the mercy seat.


3 “Thus Aaron shall come into the Holy Place: with the blood of a young bull as a sin offering, and of a ram as a burnt offering. 4 He shall put the holy linen tunic and the linen trousers on his body; he shall be girded with a linen sash, and with the linen turban he shall be attired. These are holy garments. Therefore he shall wash his body in water, and put them on. 5 And he shall take from the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats as a sin offering, and one ram as a burnt offering.


6 “Aaron shall offer the bull as a sin offering, which is for himself, and make atonement for himself and for his house. 7 He shall take the two goats and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of meeting. 8 Then Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats: one lot for the Lord and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat on which the Lord’s lot fell, and offer it as a sin offering. 10 But the goat on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make atonement upon it, and to let it go as the scapegoat into the wilderness.


11 “And Aaron shall bring the bull of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make atonement for himself and for his house, and shall kill the bull as the sin offering which is for himself. 12 Then he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from the altar before the Lord, with his hands full of sweet incense beaten fine, and bring it inside the veil. 13 And he shall put the incense on the fire before the Lord, that the cloud of incense may cover the mercy seat that is on the Testimony, lest he die. 14 He shall take some of the blood of the bull and sprinkle it with his finger on the mercy seat on the east side; and before the mercy seat he shall sprinkle some of the blood with his finger seven times.


15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering, which is for the people, bring its blood inside the veil, do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and before the mercy seat. 16 So he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions, for all their sins; and so he shall do for the tabernacle of meeting which remains among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17 There shall be no man in the tabernacle of meeting when he goes in to make atonement in the Holy Place, until he comes out, that he may make atonement for himself, for his household, and for all the assembly of Israel. 18 And he shall go out to the altar that is before the Lord, and make atonement for it, and shall take some of the blood of the bull and some of the blood of the goat, and put it on the horns of the altar all around. 19 Then he shall sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times, cleanse it, and consecrate[b] it from the [c]uncleanness of the children of Israel.


20 “And when he has made an end of atoning for the Holy Place, the tabernacle of meeting, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat. 21 Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man. 22 The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to an uninhabited land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness.


23 “Then Aaron shall come into the tabernacle of meeting, shall take off the linen garments which he put on when he went into the Holy Place, and shall leave them there. 24 And he shall wash his body with water in a holy place, put on his garments, come out and offer his burnt offering and the burnt offering of the people, and make [f]atonement for himself and for the people. 25 The fat of the sin offering he shall burn on the altar. 26 And he who released the goat as the scapegoat shall wash his clothes and bathe his body in water, and afterward he may come into the camp. 27 The bull for the sin offering and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the Holy Place, shall be carried outside the camp. And they shall burn in the fire their skins, their flesh, and their offal. 28 Then he who burns them shall wash his clothes and bathe his body in water, and afterward he may come into the camp.


29 “This shall be a statute forever for you: In the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall [g]afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether a native of your own country or a stranger who [h]dwells among you. 30 For on that day the priest shall make [i]atonement for you, to cleanse you, that you may be clean from all your sins before the Lord. 31 It is a sabbath of solemn rest for you, and you shall afflict your souls. It is a statute forever. 32 And the priest, who is anointed and consecrated to minister as priest in his father’s place, shall make atonement, and put on the linen clothes, the holy garments; 33 then he shall make atonement for the Holy Sanctuary, and he shall make atonement for the tabernacle of meeting and for the altar, and he shall make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly. 34 This shall be an everlasting statute for you, to make atonement for the children of Israel, for all their sins, once a year.” And he did as the Lord commanded Moses.

Where is Gods mercy here? This sure is alot of Blood that had to be spilled or shed for the sins of the people. year after year. How many animals died? Even the scapegoat was sent out where preditors will kill it.

This is what the law said was required to pay for sin.

Animal sacrifices do not "pay" for sins. Sins bring death, and the animal sacrifice is meant to represent the cost ...OUR cost...in sacrificing the animal part of ourselves ...the outer man...to die in order to have an intimate walk with God in Christ.

So you have things exactly backwards.

God is merciful...we are selfish. We need to die and become merciful.. selfless as God is selfless. Jesus died because of our sins to shame us..inspire us... into dying TO our sins.

Rom. 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

 

[Waiting on him]

Jeremiah 7:22 KJV
[22] For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

 

[Waiting on him]

No man had seen God at anytime.

 

[Waiting on him]

The land that was promised was their hearts. This is where The Almighty dwells.

It’s what the little box in the dark room behind the veil represents.

 

[ChristisGod]

You don't think that the Bible teaches that Jesus has paid the penalty for all sins?

That’s not what was stated . Atonement has nothing to do with penalty but covering for sin , removal , takes away sin and forgiveness. The lamb of God who takes away the sins . Jesus said His life was a random for sin and provided forgiveness as He said His blood and body represents in the communion.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I guess for Jesus to have executed the full law of Moses he’d have to have killed all of them. For their lack of fulfillment.

Actually,

Jesus became the lamb of God. They represented him on the cross.. Thats what the author of Hebrews tells us.

Hebrews 10: For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.

11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Animal sacrifices do not "pay" for sins. Sins bring death, and the animal sacrifice is meant to represent the cost ...OUR cost...in sacrificing the animal part of ourselves ...the outer man...to die in order to have an intimate walk with God in Christ.

So you have things exactly backwards.

God is merciful...we are selfish. We need to die and become merciful.. selfless as God is selfless. Jesus died because of our sins to shame us..inspire us... into dying TO our sins.

Rom. 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

They were a symbol of what must be done.

Jesus offered himself up

You can't pay for your own sin my friend.. You can;t die and become merciful and pay for your past sins, let alobe your present sins or your future sins.

 

[Waiting on him]

Actually,

Jesus became the lamb of God. They represented him on the cross.. Thats what the author of Hebrews tells us.

Hebrews 10: For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.

11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

That’s me His footstool.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That’s me His footstool.

so what offering did Jesus make once for sins forever?

 

[Waiting on him]

so what offering did Jesus make once for sins forever?

His flesh.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

His flesh.

what about his blood?

 

[ChristisGod]

They were a symbol of what must be done.

Jesus offered himself up

You can't pay for your own sin my friend.. You can;t die and become merciful and pay for your past sins, let alobe your present sins or your future sins.

They don’t understand the atonement

 

[Episkopos]

Actually,

Jesus became the lamb of God. They represented him on the cross.. Thats what the author of Hebrews tells us.

Hebrews 10: For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.

11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

Notice that it doesn't say "he has forgiven forever"...as you are trying to understand the purpose of Jesus' sacrifice.

Jesus made a way for people to DIE in the outer man of the flesh in order to be raised up in the inner man into HIS resurrection life. He went first to create the process.

 

[ChristisGod]

Notice that it doesn't say "he has forgiven forever"...as you are trying to understand the purpose of Jesus' sacrifice.

Jesus made a way for people to DIE in the outer man of the flesh in order to be raised up in the inner man into HIS resurrection life. He went first to create the process.

Wrong His death is our atonement. We cannot atone our sins .

Next

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Notice that it doesn't say "he has forgiven forever"...as you are trying to understand the purpose of Jesus' sacrifice.

Jesus made a way for people to DIE in the outer man of the flesh in order to be raised up in the inner man into HIS resurrection life. He went first to create the process.

No.

But it does say he has perfected forever through that one sacrifice.

One can not be perfected unless they are forgiven.

14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.