HERESY?

[amigo de christo]

What do you think of the men that were taught by the Apostles?
That would be the Early Church Fathers.
If those of us here are debating a specific teaching...
would it be wrong to see what the ECFs believed?

(I tend to trust them).

Dont use augustine .
Polycarp , i enjoyed his letter . I think there was another one too . its been a long time since i read on their writings .

 

[amigo de christo]

Dont use augustine .
Polycarp , i enjoyed his letter . I think there was another one too . its been a long time since i read on their writings .

 

[GodsGrace]

Dont use augustine .
Polycarp , i enjoyed his letter . I think there was another one too . its been a long time since i read on their writings .

Agreed on Augustine.
He brought his gnostic manechaesm (10 year's worth) along with him to his new religion...Christianity.

 

[amigo de christo]

Agreed on Augustine.
He brought his gnostic manechaesm (10 year's worth) along with him to his new religion...Christianity.

Very dangerous indeed my friend . Very dangerous .

 

[theefaith]

Anything that’s not the “doctrine of the apostles” like the heresy of justification by “faith alone” or the “Bible alone”!

 

[JohnPaul]

Who Is The Roman Catholic Church Really Worshiping?.

Heresy!

@theefaith this is Heresy, no one on here seems to comment on this link and why the Popes and the rest of the clergy dress the way they do.

 

[theefaith]

@theefaith this is Heresy, no one on here seems to comment on this link and why the Popes and the rest of the clergy dress the way they do.

is that the 11th commandment?
Thou shalt not dress that way!

True religious leaders always have special garb, see the high priest Jesus Christ and the seamless garment

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I believe that this is an important point.....there are two kinds of “sin”....and only one is cancelled by Jesus’ sacrifice.

“Grace” is not a licence to sin.....it is the atonement for the sin and imperfection that was an inheritance from our forefather, Adam. (Romans 5:12) That is the sin that leads to death, one that all of us suffer from birth, no matter how righteous we try to be....it is an inevitable decline into old age, the breakdown of the physical organism, and eventually death.

This is the sin David spoke about in Psalm 51:5...
“Behold, I was brought forth in guilt, And in sin my mother conceived me.” (NASB)

This lethal inheritance is what Christ’s blood cancels out.....but the deliberate breaking of God’s Law is a choice, like the one the devil and our first parents made....there is no excuse or pardoning of a wilful and deliberate act of wrongdoing with no remorse or attempt to right the wrong.

Our sinful inheritance gives us weaknesses that can lead to sin, but at the end of the day, we are responsible for our own actions. If our weakness led us to commit sin, then we have a conscience to direct us to the only one who made forgiveness possible by sincere repentance. Jesus blood cleanses us from sin, but only if we repent. (1 John 1:7)

God forgives in a large way, but only if we are truly sorry and try our best never to repeat that sin.

There is only one kind of sin. And jesus paid for it all

The only sin jesus did not die for is the sin of unbelief.

In adam, we are born dead to christ.

That way we can be born in christ.

In adam all die, even so in christ shall all be made alive

What we will be judged in the end, is are we in adam (unbelievers) or in Christ (believer)

Jesus said it best. He who believes is not condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already.

 

[Aunty Jane]

is that the 11th commandment?
Thou shalt not dress that way!

True religious leaders always have special garb, see the high priest Jesus Christ and the seamless garment

Yes...Jesus was dressed in royal raiment and was wearing a mitre on his head...is that why Judas had to identify him with a kiss???? I’m guessing not.

 

[Aunty Jane]

There is only one kind of sin. And jesus paid for it all

There is unforgivable sin.....of the kind Judas was guilty of....sin against the Holy Spirit.
Like the other apostles, Judas partook of the Holy Spirit when they performed miracles using Jesus’ name. (Matthew 10:1, 5-8)
The Pharisees too were witnesses of the operation of God’s spirit in Jesus’ miracles...but attributed these things to Beelzebub.....(Matthew 12:24)

The only sin jesus did not die for is the sin of unbelief.

Unbelief is not a sin....as if someone can control what they believe. Jesus said that unless one has the right heart response to the preaching of his disciples, they will never come to Christ. (John 6:44; 65)
No one can come to the Son without an invitation from the Father. It is what is in a person’s heart that makes the difference.

Those rejected by Jesus at the judgment are sure that their “Christianity” is the real deal....and yet what does Jesus say to them...?
“I never knew you get away from me you workers of lawlessness”. (Matthew 7:21-23) These are professed “believers” so what does it mean to “believe”? (James 2:19)

In adam, we are born dead to christ.

We are born in sin, no doubt about that....but not dead to Christ.
Romans 5:8...
“God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”

That way we can be born in christ.

If you mean being “born again” I have a completely different view of what that means. I do not believe that all Christians are "born again" because this 'rebirth' is only necessary for the “elect” who have to die in their flesh and be raised in the spirit like Jesus was. This is how they are “ born again”...given life in a new form so that they can do the work assigned to them in the Kingdom of God. (Revelation 20:6) I do not believe that all Christians go to heaven....why would God put us here on earth with all the things necessary for everlasting life, and then have us die and take us to heaven? Why not just put us there in the first place? The angels never had to begin their lives on earth to qualify for heaven.

In adam all die, even so in christ shall all be made alive

Actually the scriptures do not indicate that "all" will receive the benefits of Christ's sacrifice. All who obey his teaching certainly will, but at the judgment there are only "sheep and goats"...the "sheep" inherit everlasting life because of their obedience, but the "goats" end up in the place reserved for satan and his demons. These are not saved at all. Christ's sacrifice does not apply to them. (Matthew 25:31-33)

What we will be judged in the end, is are we in adam (unbelievers) or in Christ (believer)

Again we have to ask what it means to be a "believer"...it means more than just "believing" as James 2:19 says.
Jesus tells us who are saved.....
Matthew 7:21-23...
"Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’"

Who wants to be on the receiving end of those words? How could people be so deluded as to assume that they are sheep, when really they are goats? How can professed Christians be goats?

Jesus said it best. He who believes is not condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already.

Jesus always said it best...we just have to know what he said and why he said it....and what it means to "believe".

Those whom Jesus rejects assume that they are "believers”, whose beliefs and practices are acceptable to their "Lord"....but they are horribly misled....and God does not correct them. Do you know why?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

There is unforgivable sin.....of the kind Judas was guilty of....sin against the Holy Spirit.

The unforgivable sin is the sin if unbelief. Judas rejected what the HS said about jesus in unbelief. Thats why when he died in that state he died spiritually dead.

Like the other apostles, Judas partook of the Holy Spirit when they performed miracles using Jesus’ name. (Matthew 10:1, 5-8)
The Pharisees too were witnesses of the operation of God’s spirit in Jesus’ miracles...but attributed these things to Beelzebub.....(Matthew 12:24)

Judas was never saved, He was a theif, and he never believed in Jesus He was there for the money. We are never told he physically did anything. Al we were told was him and his partner did something. That does not prove Judas was saved at one time.

Unbelief is not a sin....as if someone can control what they believe. Jesus said that unless one has the right heart response to the preaching of his disciples, they will never come to Christ. (John 6:44; 65)
No one can come to the Son without an invitation from the Father. It is what is in a person’s heart that makes the difference.

The HS convicts the WORLD of sin righteousness and judgment, As paul said in Romans 1. No one has an excuse.

When you reject the gospel. You blaspheming the HS.

Those rejected by Jesus at the judgment are sure that their “Christianity” is the real deal....and yet what does Jesus say to them...?
“I never knew you get away from me you workers of lawlessness”. (Matthew 7:21-23) These are professed “believers” so what does it mean to “believe”? (James 2:19)

He said HE NEVER KNEW THEM

Yes. many people think they are saved. Why did these people think they were saved? because they did works. Their faith was in the works, Not in christ. So they practiced iniquity. Because that is what non children of God do.

We are born in sin, no doubt about that....but not dead to Christ.
Romans 5:8...
“God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”

He died for us while we were sinners. But until we are born again, we are dead.

As paul said, we who were dead in tresspasses and sin he made alive. (Born again)

If you mean being “born again” I have a completely different view of what that means. I do not believe that all Christians are "born again" because this 'rebirth' is only necessary for the “elect” who have to die in their flesh and be raised in the spirit like Jesus was. This is how they are “ born again”...given life in a new form so that they can do the work assigned to them in the Kingdom of God. (Revelation 20:6) I do not believe that all Christians go to heaven....why would God put us here on earth with all the things necessary for everlasting life, and then have us die and take us to heaven? Why not just put us there in the first place? The angels never had to begin their lives on earth to qualify for heaven.

One who is not born again is still dead. One who is dead is seperates from God. They are not saved.

Actually the scriptures do not indicate that "all" will receive the benefits of Christ's sacrifice. All who obey his teaching certainly will, but at the judgment there are only "sheep and goats"...the "sheep" inherit everlasting life because of their obedience, but the "goats" end up in the place reserved for satan and his demons. These are not saved at all. Christ's sacrifice does not apply to them. (Matthew 25:31-33)

Your right not everyone will

He who believes is not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned already.

Who is the one who overcomes the world? He who is born of God. How are we born of God. By faith.

Not sure why you would insert works in the equation. That would be dangerous.

Again we have to ask what it means to be a "believer"...it means more than just "believing" as James 2:19 says.
Jesus tells us who are saved.....
Matthew 7:21-23...
"Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’"

Who wants to be on the receiving end of those words? How could people be so deluded as to assume that they are sheep, when really they are goats? How can professed Christians be goats?


Jesus always said it best...we just have to know what he said and why he said it....and what it means to "believe".

Those whom Jesus rejects assume that they are "believers, whose beliefs and practices are acceptable to their "Lord"....but they are horribly misled....and God does not correct them. Do you know why?

True faith is true faith. Works is a byproduct of that faith.

Salvation is by faith. Not of works lest anyone should boast.

As paul said. Not by works of righteousness which we have done but by his mercy he saved us by the washing and renewal (new birth) of the Holy Spirit

Many people do christian works. But as you shared earlier, it does nto mean they are saved. Because inspite of these works. Jesus will tell them to depart for he never knew them.

Works is how we are justified before men (james) by works will never justify us before God (romans 4)

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I know persons that believe they NEVER sin...I just cannot accept this as being biblical because John himself states that if we say we have no sin we are lying and that if we do sin we have an advocate with the Father.

Would you agree?

GG, Jesus takes away the nature that willfully commits lawlessness against the laws of God. Our old nature was in opposition to His laws; therefore always struggled Romans 7:14-23. But the Spirit frees us from that struggle by writing His laws on a new nature which is called being born again. Romans 8:1-9 NKJV (not a modern version like NASB or NIV or newer). So now God's laws are part of our new nature, so that we are no longer in opposition to God's laws.

The only thing we commit now are due to immaturity in the fruit of the Spirit, and the process of maturing takes a long time, and for those to become cleansed by our Advocate, we must stay reconciled with those who trespass against us, namely forgiving them. And apologizing when we find that, right or wrong, someone may have something against us. God wants us to reconcile, which can be hard, but it is called purifying ourselves and keeping ourselves. 1 John 3:3 and 1 John 5:18. Matthew 6:14-15. 1 Peter 1:15-16

3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I believe that this is an important point.....there are two kinds of “sin”....and only one is cancelled by Jesus’ sacrifice.

“Grace” is not a licence to sin.....it is the atonement for the sin and imperfection that was an inheritance from our forefather, Adam. (Romans 5:12) That is the sin that leads to death, one that all of us suffer from birth, no matter how righteous we try to be....it is an inevitable decline into old age, the breakdown of the physical organism, and eventually death.

This is the sin David spoke about in Psalm 51:5...
“Behold, I was brought forth in guilt, And in sin my mother conceived me.” (NASB)

This lethal inheritance is what Christ’s blood cancels out.....but the deliberate breaking of God’s Law is a choice, like the one the devil and our first parents made....there is no excuse or pardoning of a wilful and deliberate act of wrongdoing with no remorse or attempt to right the wrong.

Our sinful inheritance gives us weaknesses that can lead to sin, but at the end of the day, we are responsible for our own actions. If our weakness led us to commit sin, then we have a conscience to direct us to the only one who made forgiveness possible by sincere repentance. Jesus blood cleanses us from sin, but only if we repent. (1 John 1:7)

God forgives in a large way, but only if we are truly sorry and try our best never to repeat that sin.

We have a major responsibility in our conduct, showing good fruit. And continuing to grow. But Jesus gives us His grace. That is not unmerited favor, as taught, but the divine power of God, letting us be partakers of His divine nature. 2 Peter 1:2-4.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The unforgivable sin is the sin if unbelief. Judas rejected what the HS said about jesus in unbelief. Thats why when he died in that state he died spiritually dead.

Judas was never saved, He was a theif, and he never believed in Jesus He was there for the money. We are never told he physically did anything. Al we were told was him and his partner did something. That does not prove Judas was saved at one time.

There was no distinction made regarding Judas because each man was chosen by God after Jesus spent all night in prayer to his Father....
Matthew 10:1...
"So he summoned his 12 disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, in order to expel these and to cure every sort of disease and every sort of infirmity."
The 12 are mentioned here without excluding Judas. There is nothing to indicate that Jesus knew from the beginning of his ministry exactly who would betray him.
Judas was not a thief from the beginning but became one. The fact that he was entrusted with caring for the common finances of Jesus and the 12 reflects favorably on his dependability at the time, and his ability or education, especially since Matthew had had experience with money and figures but did not receive this assignment.
It was less than a year after he had been made an apostle, when he was publicly denounced by Christ, though not by name. Jesus acknowledged that he had chosen the 12 but said: “One of you is a slanderer [Gr., di·aʹbo·los] meaning “devil” or “slanderer”.”

The account explains that the one who already was a slanderer was Judas, who “was going to betray him, although one of the twelve.” (John 6:66-71) In connection with this incident John says: “From the beginning Jesus knew . . . who was the one that would betray him.” (John 6:64) From Hebrew Scripture prophecies Christ knew that he would be betrayed by a close associate. (Psalm 41:9; Psalm 109:8; John 3:18-19) Jesus was made aware as time went on who his betrayer would be.

God also, by use of his foreknowledge, had seen that such a one would turn traitor, but it is inconsistent with God’s qualities and past dealings to think that he set Judas up to fail, as if his actions were predestined. He still had free will.

 

[Aunty Jane]

When you reject the gospel. You blaspheming the HS.

I hear the word "gospel" bandied about a lot by many Christians, but can you tell me exactly what you think it means?
What is "the gospel"? In order to accept it or reject it, you first have to know what it is....
Like the "Kingdom of God"....its talked about....but what is God's Kingdom? And what is its purpose?

Yes. many people think they are saved. Why did these people think they were saved? because they did works. Their faith was in the works, Not in christ. So they practiced iniquity. Because that is what non children of God do.

Can you provide a single scripture that states that anyone was saved, as in past tense....that it had already happened in their lifetime? All I can find is future tense that we "will be saved"..so again what does it mean to be "saved"....what are we getting saved from?

He died for us while we were sinners. But until we are born again, we are dead.

We have very different understanding of that term.

As paul said, we who were dead in tresspasses and sin he made alive. (Born again)

Being "made alive" simply means being made 'spiritually' alive....a reverse of the situation of being 'spiritually' dead. Where does it say that means being "born again"?

One who is not born again is still dead. One who is dead is seperates from God. They are not saved.

Please provide scripture where this is stated....no one is saved until they are....so again what does it mean to be "saved"?
If I save you from drowning or if I save you by giving you CPR....what have I saved you from? Or if I saved you from being attacked by a bear or a crazed gunman.....what have I saved you from?

He who believes is not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned already.

Who is the one who overcomes the world? He who is born of God. How are we born of God. By faith.

Not sure why you would insert works in the equation. That would be dangerous.

According to James, if our faith is devoid of works, it is a dead faith. Abraham is mentioned in Hebrews 11 as one whose faith was strong, so strong in fact that he is the only man in all of the Bible to be called "Jehovah's friend".

James' reasoning is not ambiguous in this....James 2....
14 "Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it?
18 "Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
20-23 "But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that his faith was active along with his works and his faith was perfected by his works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled that says: “Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness,” and he came to be called Jehovah’s friend. You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works and not by faith alone".
26 "Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

Does God's word contradict itself?

True faith is true faith. Works is a byproduct of that faith.

Both are necessary.....as Jesus said, those who are found "doing the will" of his father will enter the Kingdom....it means more that just "believing". Faith is active, not passive.

Salvation is by faith. Not of works lest anyone should boast.

Anyone who boasts about their works is already lost, missing the whole point of them.... one's faith is defined by their works.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Being "made alive" simply means being made 'spiritually' alive....a reverse of the situation of being 'spiritually' dead. Where does it say that means being "born again"?

I'm curious what you believe is born again? What part of us? According to 2 Peter 1:2-4 I believe it has to be our nature is what is cruicified with Jesus. And what is our nature? I believe it is our mind and emotions - spirit and heart. They are made brand new and given immortality. What still needs to die because of Adam is our body. But our body will put on immortality at the resurrection. Unlike some people believe, I believe that sin only dwelled in our old nature, not our physical body. Our body is like a puppet that is operated by our nature.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

There is only one kind of sin. And jesus paid for it all

The only sin jesus did not die for is the sin of unbelief.

In adam, we are born dead to christ.

That way we can be born in christ.

In adam all die, even so in christ shall all be made alive

What we will be judged in the end, is are we in adam (unbelievers) or in Christ (believer)

Jesus said it best. He who believes is not condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already.

Can a believer sin or not? 1 John 5:18

What sins did Jesus take away the desire to commit. 1 John 3:5?

 

[Curtis]

Not sure where this should be...
the study of God seemed appropriate (maybe).

Every denomination has some teaching or doctrine that we would not agree with.

How would you explain the difference between an
incorrect teaching
and
a heretical teaching...?

IOW,,,when does an incorrect teaching become heretical?

Thanks.

Heresy is denying the fundamental doctrines that one must believe to be saved: His virgin birth as the only begotten Son of God, His sinless life, His death on a cross for our sins, and His bodily resurrection from the dead after three days.

Maranatha

 

[Aunty Jane]

I'm curious what you believe is born again? What part of us? According to 2 Peter 1:2-4 I believe it has to be our nature is what is cruicified with Jesus. And what is our nature? I believe it is our mind and emotions - spirit and heart. They are made brand new and given immortality. What still needs to die because of Adam is our body. But our body will put on immortality at the resurrection. Unlike some people believe, I believe that sin only dwelled in our old nature, not our physical body. Our body is like a puppet that is operated by our nature.

I come from a completely different direction on this issue 1stCL...

You see, I do not believe that all Christians are heaven bound....in fact such a small number make up the "elect" that the majority of us are going to live right here on earth, where God planned for us to live when he first created humans.

We were not created to die and go anywhere. If Adam hadn't disobeyed his God, no one would have needed to go to heaven because everlasting life was to be lived here. Earth was intended to be man's permanent home.

The Christian Scriptures were written by and for those of the "elect", because all the first Christians were of "the heavenly calling". (Hebrews 3:1) Not all Christians are "holy ones", because these "chosen ones" have a specific role in heaven with their King, ruling over earthly subjects and offering them their services as priests. (Revelation 20:6)

When they speak about attaining immortality and being "born again", I believe that only the elect will experience this transformation. No one can take a physical body to heaven....so being "born again" means dying in the flesh and being raised as a spirit, like Jesus was. It is a new birth. I do not believe that we humans have an immortal soul that departs from the body at death, but that we are created as mortals because that is the way God intended for us to live forever....right here in paradise conditions on earth.

If we have a fair idea what the Kingdom of God is, and what it will accomplish, we will see that there was no reason for any human to ever go to heaven before Adam's sin. The Kingdom and Jesus' sacrifice were in response to Adam's sin, and since he passed the defect of sin and death on to all his children, Jesus came to get us back, what he lost.
Revelation 21:2-4 tell us what the result of that rescue mission will be....

"And I saw the holy city—the new Jerusalem—descending out of heaven from God, made ready like a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying: “Look! The residence of God is among human beings. He will live among them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death will not exist any more—or mourning, or crying, or pain, for the former things have ceased to exist.” (NET)

The Holy City is new Jerusalem.....like old Jerusalem, it is the seat of God's worship, his Kingdom in the hands of his Christ, but in heaven, and it is seen bringing its rulership to mankind on earth, restoring the life that we should have enjoyed all along....with none of the pain of living in this world to make life difficult. Even death is eliminated.....paradise will be restored and with all the wicked dispatched, there will be nothing to spoil the peace and security of that world to come. (2 Peter 3:13)

That is what makes sense to me....and it can't come soon enough....

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Can a believer sin or not? 1 John 5:18

What sins did Jesus take away the desire to commit. 1 John 3:5?

A believer can not live in sin 1 John 5 (let’s interpret that correctly. If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves. John did not contradict himself

1 John 3:5 said he took the sin away. We still have the flesh.