HERESY?

[Eternally Grateful]

I have an explanation for this which is totally mine and should not cause any discussion IF you should want to hear it.

I am always open to new ideas.. its how we learn :)

 

[GodsGrace]

I am always open to new ideas.. its how we learn :)

It was Jesus that said 3 days and 3 nights.
It doesn't work out, no matter how you do the counting, even using the Jewish day/time method.
But He wasn't dumb,,,
So He must have been using language of His time and culture.

Here in Italy we do the same thing.
If it's Monday and I want to meet a friend next Monday, one of the ways to say this is:
DA OGGI A 8
which means From today to 8 days away.
So do the counting,,,
It's 8 days counting the present Monday
IOW, it's how we talk.
It's not really 8 24 hour periods.

Just my idea...
Then again, John could have made a mistake.

 

[Wrangler]

1. Saying I am should have meaning. It means nothing if it just means he is here now

It’s so odd that you eliminate the most obvious meaning - just to support your doctrine.

Our letters have been straightforward, and there is nothing written between the lines and nothing you can’t understand.
2 Corinthians 1:13

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It’s so odd that you eliminate the most obvious meaning - just to support your doctrine.

Our letters have been straightforward, and there is nothing written between the lines and nothing you can’t understand.
2 Corinthians 1:13

In other words. You can’t refute what I said.

My answer is the ONLY obvious answer my friend. Otherwise. It makes no sense what Jesus said.

The fact they went to stone him for blasphemy also supports my case.

Moving on

 

[Moriah's Song]

When Jesus was in the upper room, celebrating the fiest of unleavened bread. They were still under the Old covenant.

Once again, you did not answer the question....

"Since it was Jesus' last day on earth as a human, just when was He able to institute the New Covenant and how "communion" was to replace sacrifices and feast ---- after he was crucified? Really??"​

The following chain of events is taken from a book called "The Christ of the Gospels." It a book that gives a chronological account of the ministry of Jesus from birth to resurrection and ascension.

Thursday evening and on into Friday morning
1. Jesus is in the upper room for His LAST SUPPER with His 12 disciples (the first members of the church)
2. The disciples eat of the leavened bread (autos/not...STRONGS G106:ἄζυμος, -όν, (ζύμη), Hebrew מַצָּה, unfermented, free from leaven; )
3. The New Covenant is revealed to the now 11 disciples.
4. They all go to the Mount of Olives.
5. They leave and go to the Garden of Gethsemane.
6. Judas reveals Jesus to the Jews that were looking for him.
7. Peter denies Jesus.​

Sunrise Good Friday morning
8. Judas hanged himself.
9. Jesus goes before Pilate.
10. The ruling priest, the elders (12 tribal leaders?), the crowd, the Roman soldiers and the Bible scholars accuse Jesus.
11. The govenor frees Barabbas.
12. The Roman soldiers refer to Jesus as "King of the Jews" in a paradoxical manner because he really is our King.
13. Jesus carries His cross
14. A man from Cyrene carries the cross for Jesus.
15. The two criminals and Jesus go to Golgatha and are nailed to their crosses.
16. A placque is labeled "This is Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews" and nailed to the cross.
17. The thief on the cross believes Jesus and says to the other..."Aren't you afraid of God seeing that you are condemned just as He is?"
18. Jesus promised the thief that he would be with the risen Christ in Paradise.
19. Jesus dies at 3:00 p.m. on Good Friday
20. Jesus arose from the dead on Easter Sunday​

NOW, WHEN DID JESUS INSTITUTE THE NEW COVENANT IF HE DID NOT DO IT UNDER THE OLD COVENANT EVEN THOUGH THE SEPTUAGINTS TRANSCRIBED THE GREEK WORD AS LEAVENED BREAD AT THE LAST SUPPER.

That same Greek word "autos" is in two of my Interliner Bibles. These are facts. They are not my biased "opinions". In Mark 14, Mark used both "Unleavened Bread" and "bread." This is for the use of "Unleavened Bread" of which Mark was merely giving the "title" of the feast; he was not discussing what was in the feast. But in verse 22 he does use the word "autos". That means that the 70 Septuagint transcribers understood that "bread" had two meanings to it....

Strong's: of Unleavened Bread

PHRASE
g106
ἀζύμων ἄζυμοςazymos​

 

[Wrangler]

In other words. You can’t refute what I said.

Claiming victory instead of actually making a winning argument is much easier.

 

[GodsGrace]

Claiming victory instead of actually making a winning argument is much easier.

YOU know all about that!

 

[Moriah's Song]

YOU know all about that!

AMEN!!!

 

[Moriah's Song]

How is this possible if we are not God?

EXCUSE ME???

Am I reading that right?

 

[Wrangler]

EXCUSE ME???

Am I reading that right?

I don’t know. How are you reading that? Do you suppose suppositions and logical questions may only be invoked to support a proposition?

 

[michaelvpardo]

The Bible often presents us with a choice of two contrasting things that are poles apart. So it is with "leaven." It appears that Jesus used "leavened bread" because He was instituting the New Covenant and showing us that instead of sacrifices and feasts it would be "communion" with "wine" (or grape juice) and bread.

Heaven and Hell --- There is an eternal home in heaven as well as an eternal hell.
Beginning and End --- God has neither beginning nor end. His creation will end in a new beginning.
Good and Evil --- the Battle of right against wrong.
Truth and Error --- The Bible often mentions truth as opposed to falsehood.
Light and Darkness --- The Light" of the gospel brings enlightenment to those in spiritual darkness.
Knowledge and Ignorance --- Learn Christ or Know Nothing.
Love and Hate --- Love God and hate sin.​

Good leaven:

Matt. 13:33 - He told them another parable. "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven which a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, till it was all leavened."

Luke 13:21 - It is like leaven which a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, till it was all leavened."​

Bad leaven:

1 Cor 5:6 - Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?

Gal 5:9 - A little leaven leavens the whole lump.​

Good and bad leaven in one sentence:

Mat 16:11-12 - How is it that you fail to perceive that I did not speak about bread (autos)? Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees." Then they understood that he did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.....which is hypocrisy. (Lu 12:1)

1Co 5:7 - Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our paschal lamb, has been sacrificed.

1Co 5:8 - Let us, therefore, celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.​

Jesus did not use leavened bread for the passover and even if He was willing to violate the feast, neither John or Peter would do so. Where did you get this fiction? The bread of haste, the bread of the passover, is unleavened. It was made without using yeast and the time it takes for yeast to puff up the flour mixture. I guess that you're not familiar with the process of making bread. The passover lamb is eaten with unleavened bread and bitter herbs.

 

[Moriah's Song]

Jesus did not use leavened bread for the passover and even if He was willing to violate the feast, neither John or Peter would do so. Where did you get this fiction? The bread of haste, the bread of the passover, is unleavened. It was made without using yeast and the time it takes for yeast to puff up the flour mixture. I guess that you're not familiar with the process of making bread. The passover lamb is eaten with unleavened bread and bitter herbs.

Old Testament talk....New Testament denial

I go by what the 70 Septaguint writers wrote. It is not my opinion it is fact in writing in God's Word.

 

[Moriah's Song]

Jesus did not use leavened bread for the passover and even if He was willing to violate the feast, neither John or Peter would do so. Where did you get this fiction?

Fiction?? Are you calling Jesus' words fiction? Really?

 

[michaelvpardo]

The Bible often presents us with a choice of two contrasting things that are poles apart. So it is with "leaven." It appears that Jesus used "leavened bread" because He was instituting the New Covenant and showing us that instead of sacrifices and feasts it would be "communion" with "wine" (or grape juice) and bread.

Heaven and Hell --- There is an eternal home in heaven as well as an eternal hell.
Beginning and End --- God has neither beginning nor end. His creation will end in a new beginning.
Good and Evil --- the Battle of right against wrong.
Truth and Error --- The Bible often mentions truth as opposed to falsehood.
Light and Darkness --- The Light" of the gospel brings enlightenment to those in spiritual darkness.
Knowledge and Ignorance --- Learn Christ or Know Nothing.
Love and Hate --- Love God and hate sin.​

Good leaven:

Matt. 13:33 - He told them another parable. "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven which a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, till it was all leavened."

Luke 13:21 - It is like leaven which a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, till it was all leavened."​

Bad leaven:

1 Cor 5:6 - Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?

Gal 5:9 - A little leaven leavens the whole lump.​

Good and bad leaven in one sentence:

Mat 16:11-12 - How is it that you fail to perceive that I did not speak about bread (autos)? Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees." Then they understood that he did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.....which is hypocrisy. (Lu 12:1)

1Co 5:7 - Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our paschal lamb, has been sacrificed.

1Co 5:8 - Let us, therefore, celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.​

Yes, the Bible contrasts good and evil, but leaven always represents a corrupting influence in spiritual terms, but if you're not spiritual, you'll never understand spiritual things.

Fiction?? Are you calling Jesus' words fiction? Really?

Jesus never said that He was leavened bread or ate leavened bread for the passover. [comment removed]

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Claiming victory instead of actually making a winning argument is much easier.

Ok, Yeah it is.

Is that why you did it?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Once again, you did not answer the question....

"Since it was Jesus' last day on earth as a human, just when was He able to institute the New Covenant and how "communion" was to replace sacrifices and feast ---- after he was crucified? Really??"​

The following chain of events is taken from a book called "The Christ of the Gospels." It a book that gives a chronological account of the ministry of Jesus from birth to resurrection and ascension.

Thursday evening and on into Friday morning
1. Jesus is in the upper room for His LAST SUPPER with His 12 disciples (the first members of the church)
2. The disciples eat of the leavened bread (autos/not...STRONGS G106:ἄζυμος, -όν, (ζύμη), Hebrew מַצָּה, unfermented, free from leaven; )
3. The New Covenant is revealed to the now 11 disciples.
4. They all go to the Mount of Olives.
5. They leave and go to the Garden of Gethsemane.
6. Judas reveals Jesus to the Jews that were looking for him.
7. Peter denies Jesus.​

Sunrise Good Friday morning
8. Judas hanged himself.
9. Jesus goes before Pilate.
10. The ruling priest, the elders (12 tribal leaders?), the crowd, the Roman soldiers and the Bible scholars accuse Jesus.
11. The govenor frees Barabbas.
12. The Roman soldiers refer to Jesus as "King of the Jews" in a paradoxical manner because he really is our King.
13. Jesus carries His cross
14. A man from Cyrene carries the cross for Jesus.
15. The two criminals and Jesus go to Golgatha and are nailed to their crosses.
16. A placque is labeled "This is Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews" and nailed to the cross.
17. The thief on the cross believes Jesus and says to the other..."Aren't you afraid of God seeing that you are condemned just as He is?"
18. Jesus promised the thief that he would be with the risen Christ in Paradise.
19. Jesus dies at 3:00 p.m. on Good Friday
20. Jesus arose from the dead on Easter Sunday​

NOW, WHEN DID JESUS INSTITUTE THE NEW COVENANT IF HE DID NOT DO IT UNDER THE OLD COVENANT EVEN THOUGH THE SEPTUAGINTS TRANSCRIBED THE GREEK WORD AS LEAVENED BREAD AT THE LAST SUPPER.

That same Greek word "autos" is in two of my Interliner Bibles. These are facts. They are not my biased "opinions". In Mark 14, Mark used both "Unleavened Bread" and "bread." This is for the use of "Unleavened Bread" of which Mark was merely giving the "title" of the feast; he was not discussing what was in the feast. But in verse 22 he does use the word "autos". That means that the 70 Septuagint transcribers understood that "bread" had two meanings to it....

Strong's: of Unleavened Bread

PHRASE
g106
ἀζύμων ἄζυμοςazymos​

Your still ignoring Context and the tradition.

If I celebrate the lords supper with beer and cookies. Its not the lords supper

If I celebrate the passover and the feast of UNLEAVENED BREAD with Leavened BREAD. Its not the passover or the feast of Unleavened bread

 

[Moriah's Song]

Your still ignoring Context and the tradition.

And you are still avoiding my question.....

I repeat...
NOW, WHEN DID JESUS INSTITUTE THE NEW COVENANT IF HE DID NOT DO IT UNDER THE OLD COVENANT EVEN THOUGH THE SEPTUAGINTS TRANSCRIBED THE GREEK WORD AS LEAVENED BREAD AT THE LAST SUPPER?

That same Greek word "autos" is in two of my Interliner Bibles. These are facts. They are not my biased "opinions". In Mark 14, Mark used both "Unleavened Bread" and "bread." This is for the use of "Unleavened Bread" of which Mark was merely giving the "title" of the feast; he was not discussing what was in the feast. But in verse 22 he does use the word "autos". That means that the 70 Septuagint transcribers understood that "bread" had two meanings to it....

Mark 14 - Interlinear
1. ῏Ην δὲ τὸ πάσχα καὶ τὰ ἄζυμα μετὰ δύο ἡμέρας.
Was but the passover and the unfermented [cakes] after two days.
22. Καὶ ἐσθιόντων αὐτῶν λαβὼν ἄρτον εὐλογήσας ἔκλασεν καὶ
And eating of them having taken loaf having blessed he broke and

 

[Moriah's Song]

Jesus never said that He was leavened bread or ate leavened bread for the passover.

Your argument is with God's Word; not mine.

Mark 14 - Interlinear
1. ῏Ην δὲ τὸ πάσχα καὶ τὰ ἄζυμα μετὰ δύο ἡμέρας.
Was but the passover and the unfermented [cakes] after two days.
22. Καὶ ἐσθιόντων αὐτῶν λαβὼν ἄρτον εὐλογήσας ἔκλασεν καὶ
And eating of them having taken loaf having blessed he broke and

Lev 2:11-12 RSV -
11 "No cereal offering which you bring to the LORD shall be made with [no]eaven; for you shall burn no leaven nor any honey as an offering by fire to the LORD.
12 As an offering of first fruits you may bring them to the LORD, but they shall not be offered on the altar for a pleasing odor.

~ In verse 11, no leaven in bread is to be used with the animal sacrifices at the feast of Passover because it foreshadowed the crucifixion.
~ In verse 12, leaven could be used as "first fruits" because it foreshadows the resurrection (verse 12's "first fruits" terms are defined in Lev 23:15 below).​

Lev 23:17 - 17 You shall bring from your dwellings two loaves of bread to be waved, made of two tenths of an ephah; they shall be of fine flour, they shall be baked with leaven, as first fruits to the LORD.

 

[Moriah's Song]

Jesus never said that He was leavened bread

Jhn 6:48 I am the bread of life.
6:48 ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ἄρτος τῆς ζωῆς

Jhn 6:35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst.
Jhn 6:35 εἶπεν αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ἄρτος τῆς ζωῆς ὁ ἐρχόμενος πρός ἐμὲ οὐ μὴ πεινάσῃ καὶ ὁ πιστεύων εἰς ἐμὲ οὐ μὴ διψήσει πώποτε

Jhn 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."
Jhn6:51 ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ἄρτος ὁ ζῶν ὁ ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καταβάς ἐάν τις φάγῃ ἐκ τούτου τοῦ ἄρτου ζήσει εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα καὶ ὁ ἄρτος δὲ ὃν ἐγὼ δώσω ἡ σάρξ μού ἐστιν ὑπὲρ τῆς τοῦ κόσμου ζωῆς

 

[Eternally Grateful]

And you are still avoiding my question.....

I repeat...
NOW, WHEN DID JESUS INSTITUTE THE NEW COVENANT IF HE DID NOT DO IT UNDER THE OLD COVENANT EVEN THOUGH THE SEPTUAGINTS TRANSCRIBED THE GREEK WORD AS LEAVENED BREAD AT THE LAST SUPPER?

That same Greek word "autos" is in two of my Interliner Bibles. These are facts. They are not my biased "opinions". In Mark 14, Mark used both "Unleavened Bread" and "bread." This is for the use of "Unleavened Bread" of which Mark was merely giving the "title" of the feast; he was not discussing what was in the feast. But in verse 22 he does use the word "autos". That means that the 70 Septuagint transcribers understood that "bread" had two meanings to it....

Mark 14 - Interlinear
1. ῏Ην δὲ τὸ πάσχα καὶ τὰ ἄζυμα μετὰ δύο ἡμέρας.
Was but the passover and the unfermented [cakes] after two days.
22. Καὶ ἐσθιόντων αὐτῶν λαβὼν ἄρτον εὐλογήσας ἔκλασεν καὶ
And eating of them having taken loaf having blessed he broke and

I don't care about this

I care about what happened.

If leavened bread was present, they broke the law.

period

all of this just so you feel you do not have to eat crackers at the lords supper? Good God, who cares what you eat.. Its NOT the passover meal or the feast of Unleavened bread.