HERESY?

[Marymog]

There is no such thing as "three Gods in a Godhead". It is always ONE GOD eternally existent as three divine Persons (1 John 5:7 KJB).

No. That is purely what you imagine.

 

[Enoch111]

No. That is purely what you imagine.

It seems then that you don't even know your own Catholic teaching on the Trinity. Or are you also a Unitarian?

So let's see what the Catholics believe, and whether my statement is imaginary.
"The dogma of the Trinity
The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion — the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another." -- New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia

And what did I say?
There is no such thing as "three Gods in a Godhead". It is always ONE GOD eternally existent as three divine Persons (1 John 5:7 KJB).

 

[Wrangler]

The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion

The central doctrine of Christianity completely absent from the Bible.

 

[Enoch111]

The central doctrine of Christianity completely absent from the Bible.

Until the Watchtower Society came along and gave the gullible a new "revelation".

So let me show you that the first verse in the first book of the Bible presents the Trinity.
בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ׃
In the beginning God [Elohim] created the heavens and the earth.
Brown-Driver-Briggs says "plural in number" and "3 הָאֱלֹהִים the (TRUE) God"

So the plurality of the true God is stated right at the beginning and then confirmed in Genesis 1:26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

 

[Moriah's Song]

Jesus died and did not resurrect himself. So, your question of how he did this is an invalid question.

1. explain how Jesus was able to speak to Lazarus who had been dead for 4 days. His spirit had left him but Jesus was able to call back Lazarus' spirit and restore him back to a natural life;
2. explain how Jesus was able to ressurect himself from the dead when he was dead for hours if not days;
3. explain how it was that Jesus in Matthew 27:52-53, could have opened those tombs of the saints, raised them from the dead, and have them ascent into heaven with him;
4. Explain how Jesus used the term "We will come unto him and make our abode with him." Who are the "our" and the "we" in that verse?
5. How could Jesus have said, "I and the Father are one" without being condemned as a liar? If Jesus was lying he would not have been sin free. If he was not sin free, you and I and all other human beings on planet earth have been duped and are still in our sins because, as a sinner, he could never have been our sacrifce; he would have been reduced to being no different than you and I. How does that make you feel?
6. At Christ baptism the Son came up out of the water, the Spirit descended upon Him and the Father's voice spoke from heaven (Matt. 3:16,17). Explain that please?
7. Probably the most beautiful description of the work of "atonement" is found in Hebrews 9:14, where it is stated that Christ, through the Eternal Spirit, offered Himself without spot to God; and there we behold the three Persons operating together again in Matthew 3:16,17.
​

First of all, you are merely giving your "indoctrinated" opinion based on what the Watchtower has given you through their many revised versions of their New World Translation. I know because I collected them at one time and compared certain verision for myself. I even had a discussion with one of their Greek history teachers and pointed out two exactly the same wordings for God in John 1:1 to another verse with the exact same Greek thought and he blatantly said they were different. They then proceeded to produce another version with that exact wording changed to fit their doctrine. These are the kind of "wolves in sheeps clothing" that scripture talks about.

Anyway those verses are from a legitimate Bible and that is why you cannot intelligently refute them. If could refute them you would have tried by now. Instead you simply gave an opinionated denial that they are directly from God's Word and are not my words.

Try answering all seven.

 

[Moriah's Song]

The Son is not the Creator.

I don't understand why you are on this thread as you don't seem to take anything anyone has said as being of any value whatsoever. All you do is shoot down everything in scripture that only reveals your bias to the New World Translation's revisions to fit their theology. Changing God's Holy Word is a very, very, deadly thing for them because it deceives people like you. But here are verses that reveal the Christ as Creator.

Isa 45:22 ..."Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.

Isa 46:8..."Remember this and consider, recall it to mind, you transgressors,
remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,

John 1:3...All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Jhn 1:10...He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world knew him not.

John 14:6...I am the way, the truth, and the life.

1 Corinthians 8:6 ...yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Ephesians 3:9...and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things;

Colossians 1:15-17...He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Hebrews 1:1-2...In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe

Heb 1:10...But of the Son he says, "Thou, Lord, didst found the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of thy hands;​

 

[1stCenturyLady]

1st century lady, you post what you do because you have this penchant to make the scriptures say what the scripture does not say. Nothing is more obvious than your claim that the tribulation is going to start only weeks or months from now.

AND

The person who does not understand the gospel will be martyred

AND

Those who do not overcome will be beheaded.

I suggest you stop fantasising about what is or is not going to happen and get down to brass tacks and deal with your own life in the here and now.

Prove I'm wrong with scripture, not just your opinion which means zilch. That is just meanness.

 

[Wrangler]

In the beginning God [Elohim] created the heavens and the earth.
Brown-Driver-Briggs says "plural in number" and "3 הָאֱלֹהִים the (TRUE) God"

You cannot believe the plural for God is 3.

 

[Wrangler]

First of all, you are merely giving your "indoctrinated" opinion based on what the Watchtower has given you

I have nothing to do with Watchtowerr.

 

[Aunty Jane]

.
“Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” If you can explain to me how Jesus was BEFORE Abraham without being a God then I will join your denomination.

LOL....firstly, you can’t “join”....remember? You can choose to “become” a JW, which is the same choice as choosing to “become” a Christian. It’s a conscious choice, made after careful Bible study because we have to speak in agreement with our fellow believers (1 Corinthians 1:10) and it comes with serious responsibilities, which is why you cannot baptize an infant. Once you make a vow to God, which is what baptism signifies (beginning a new life)....then he expects you to carry it out. There are consequences if you fail to do that. (Ecclesiastes 5:4-5)

Now, that translation does not even make grammatical sense. Speaking about past a tense situation cannot have a present tense response. Jesus had said that he existed before Abraham, so to make grammatical sense it should be “Before Abraham was, I was”....grasping at Exodus 3:14 to back up the trinity is fraudulent to say the least.

Reading Exodus 3:13-15 in the Jewish Tanakh It says....
“13 And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?" יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:

14 God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'" ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:

15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord [Yahweh יְהֹוָ֞ה ] God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation. טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר: ”

What is the meaning of God’s name here?Not "I AM".....here's why....
"Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)“......Yahweh (יְהֹוָ֞ה) was not telling his people that he existed, because they already knew he existed....what he told them was the meaning of his name.....that he would “BE” whatever he needed to “BE” in order to fulfill his purpose towards them. The very reason why he chose them....to bring his Messiah into the world. His name was revealing his intentions towards with them. They had no idea.

So John 8:58 has no connection to Exodus 3:15 at all. Trinitarians jumped on it and tangled the two which were never speaking about the same thing. Jesus said "I am" a lot of times without claiming to be God.

For this reason, the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because he was not only breaking the sabbath, but was also calling God his own Father, thereby making himself equal to God. The Jews answered, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you, but for blasphemy, because you, though only a human being, are making yourself God.” Apparently, the Jews at the time thought he was making himself God. But the men of your denomination don't????

I have explained this so many times already.....the Jews were trying to pin a charge of blasphemy on Jesus to give them an excuse to do away with him. These were the very ones Jesus denounced in Matthew 23. Can you not see what was going on there? Not once did Jesus claim to be God because then he would have been guilty of blasphemy, and the Jews would have had a legitimate charge against him. He had to die as an innocent man.

Look at what he himself said....at John 10:31-36....
“31 Once again the Jews picked up stones to stone him. 32 Jesus replied to them: “I displayed to you many fine works from the Father. For which of those works are you stoning me?” 33 The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy; for you, although being a man, make yourself a god.”[theos] 34 Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’? 35 If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came—and yet the scripture cannot be nullified— 36 do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?”

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God....And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. Christians believe what Scripture says. That the Word became flesh and the Word was God. Why don't your men teach you that?

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
That is NOT what it says in the original Greek.....

"In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos."

The definite article (the) is used when speaking about THE God of the Jews, who at that time was nameless. (The Jews would not utter God’s name but this was in direct disobedience to Exodus 3:15 quoted above)
Using the definite article was the only way to identify Yahweh from other mighty or divine gods and the Greeks had a plethora of them, all called by name or just collectively called "the gods".
As Jesus mentioned in John 10 (above) Yahweh himself called human judges in Israel "gods"...it is a generic term for any divine mighty one in the Greek language....it is not used exclusively for Yahweh.

Check out the Greek (below) and notice the use of "THE God" (ho theos) as opposed to "gods" (theos)........the definite article "ho" is used for Yahweh (The God) but not for Jesus who is "a god"...or one like the human judges with divine authority.

"Jesus Iēsous answered apokrinomai them autos, · ho “ Is it eimi not ou written graphō in en · ho your hymeis law nomos, ‘ I egō said legō, you are eimi gods theos’? 35 If ei the scripture called legō them ekeinos ‘ gods theos’ to pros whom hos the ho word logos of ho God theos came ginomai— and kai scripture graphē cannot ou dynamai be annulled lyō · ho— 36 do legō you hymeis say legō regarding the one whom hos the ho Father patēr consecrated hagiazō and kai sent apostellō into eis the ho world kosmos, ‘ You are blaspheming blasphēmeō,’ because hoti I said legō, ‘ I am eimi the Son hyios of ho God theos’?"
In Greek the last part of that sentence is "hoti legō, eimi hyios ho theos?" or..."because I said I am the son of THE God".

He was not "The God" but saying that he was "the son of The God".

yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. Can the men who teach you not see from this passage that the Father and the Son are equal?

NO! You failed to highlight the most important parts...."yet for us there is one God, the Father"...."and one Lord, Jesus Christ"....two separate entities....and the third 'person' is invariably missing, as 'he' is in John 17:3.

Bible study Mary

More study Mary.....

 

[Aunty Jane]

First of all, you are merely giving your "indoctrinated" opinion based on what the Watchtower has given you

And whom pray tell are your own indoctrinated opinions based on? Who provides you with your beliefs?

The Watchtower is a Bible Society which prints Bibles and Bible based literature.....JW's are not "The Watchtower"....it is a printery....a legal entity because of the volume of printed material we produce.

 

[Moriah's Song]

I have nothing to do with Watchtowerr.

Sorry, I had you mixed up with Aunty Jane. How is it though that you deny the Trinity and refuse to believe those 7 bible verses? That's JW's denials too. Are you Unitarian then? Why don't you list what you do believe then?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Until the Watchtower Society came along and gave the gullible a new "revelation".

So let me show you that the first verse in the first book of the Bible presents the Trinity.
בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ׃
In the beginning God [Elohim] created the heavens and the earth.
Brown-Driver-Briggs says "plural in number" and "3 הָאֱלֹהִים the (TRUE) God"

So the plurality of the true God is stated right at the beginning and then confirmed in Genesis 1:26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Since the Son of God was the very first of Jehovah's creations, and "all things" came into existence "through" this "firstborn of all creation" (Colossians 1:15-17) the son was at his Father's side throughout all of it.
"Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman;
And I was daily His delight,
Rejoicing always before Him,
31 Rejoicing in His inhabited world,
And my delight was with the sons of men." (Proverbs 8:30-31)

It was there all along...nothing "new" about it...it was just obscured by the trinity doctrine. Revelation of truth is progressive as the Bible clearly shows. (Proverbs 4:18)

 

[Wrangler]

I don't understand why you are on this thread as you don't seem to take anything anyone has said as being of any value whatsoever. All you do is shoot down everything in scripture that only reveals your bias to the New World Translation's revisions to fit their theology.

That shouldn’t surprise you. The difference is the trinitarian bias of older translations.

As typical, you just ignore the verses I present that destroy trinitarianism. Then, replace those verses with verses you prefer. Why are you posting in this thread?

 

[Aunty Jane]

I don't understand why you are on this thread as you don't seem to take anything anyone has said as being of any value whatsoever. All you do is shoot down everything in scripture that only reveals your bias to the New World Translation's revisions to fit their theology. Changing God's Holy Word is a very, very, deadly thing for them because it deceives people like you. But here are verses that reveal the Christ as Creator.

Matt 11:28...Come unto me and ye shall be saved. Come, inherit the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world for all who accept me as the Creator and Redeemer. Come, be one with me; I am thy God.

John 1:3...All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Jhn 1:10...He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world knew him not.

John 14:6...I am the way, the truth, and the life.

1 Corinthians 8:6 ...yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Ephesians 3:9...and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things;

Colossians 1:15-17...He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Hebrews 1:1-2...In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe

Heb 1:10...But of the Son he says, "Thou, Lord, didst found the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of thy hands;​

Good grief!!! Can you please tell me what translation this is from....? How on earth can you talk about "revisions" in the "NWT" when you provide such an extraordinarily biased translation yourself?

Let's compare both with the original texts if you like, and we will see whose translation is the most accurate....are you game?

 

[DancesWithGnostics]

"The entire Bible is written by monotheist Jews who reject the trinity to this day."

Does that include Luke?
He was not a monotheist Jew and he wrote a good chunk of the New Testament.

 

[Wrangler]

Good grief!!! Can you please tell me what translation this is from....?

I didn’t even read them until you pointed them out. @Moriah's Song is so biased, she is OK with playing fast and loose with Gods Word - to support her doctrine.

 

[Moriah's Song]

The difference is the trinitarian bias of older translations.

The doctrine of the Trinity is not a "bias of older translations." The doctrine of the triune God was debated in the early church beginning in...30 AD.

1st - Ignatius (30–107)
2nd - Justin Martyr a.d. 110–165
3rd - Ireneaus a.d. 120–202
4th - Clement of Alexandria a.d. 153–217
5th - Tertullian a.d. 145–220
​

The first four had formed a loose version of the word "trinity" but it was Tertullian that understood that the Godhead composed of a three in one/as one unity. This is one of 3 paragraphs that Tertullian put forward as a formed doctrine....

"The simple, indeed, (I will not call them unwise and unlearned,) who always constitute the majority of believers, are startled at the dispensation (of the Three in One), on the ground that their very rule of faith withdraws them from the world’s plurality of gods to the one only true God; not understanding that, although He is the one only God, He must yet be believed in with His own οἰκονομία [stewardship]. The numerical order and distribution of the Trinity they assume to be a division of the Unity; whereas the Unity which derives the Trinity out of its own self is so far from being destroyed, that it is actually supported by it. They are constantly throwing out against us that we are preachers of two gods and three gods, while they take to themselves pre-eminently the credit of being worshippers of the One God; just as if the Unity itself with irrational deductions did not produce heresy, and the Trinity rationally considered constitute the truth.
Against Praxeas Chapter III
​

I might add that this doctrine is not "new" like the heresy of dispensationalism or of the JW's, the Mormons, or Christian Scientist, or the other ones that developed in the early 1800's and then to the USA in the early 1900's are.

 

[Wrangler]

"The entire Bible is written by monotheist Jews who reject the trinity to this day."

Does that include Luke?
He was not a monotheist Jew and he wrote a good chunk of the New Testament.

Yes, Luke was an Apostate Jew. And if if he is an exception, it doesn’t change the rule as he wrote extensively about monotheism.

 

[Wrangler]

The doctrine of the Trinity is not a "bias of older translations." The doctrine of the triune God was debated in the early church beginning in...30 AD.

You still cannot even admit the trinity is not in the Bible. You cannot even admit that Jesus did not teach the trinity.