Hellfire and brimstone has given way to eternal separation from God. - Why?

[Taken]

The Apostle Paul to the Corinthians. Those are not the words of the disciples.
Hopefully those facts are not too carnal.

Typically an Apostle is a messenger…and a Disciple is a student…An Apostle is both, ever learning.

Your sarcasm is noted.
It is the message that carries the weight, not the human messenger.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[RedFan]

Why? ALL

Absolutely!
Scripture

Root: Scriptura (Latin) or γραφὴ (graphē in Greek)
Meaning: Refers to sacred writings or texts; in a Christian context, it denotes the Bible as the authoritative collection of God's revelation.
is

Part of Speech: Verb (third person singular)
Function: Serves as a linking verb connecting the subject (Scripture) to the predicate (God-breathed), indicating existence or identity.
God-breathed

Morphological Components:
God: The proper noun referring to the divine being, the Creator.
Breathed: The past participle of the verb "breathe," indicating the action of imparting life or spirit.
Combined Meaning: This compound term emphasizes that Scripture is divinely inspired, originating from God's will and essence. The concept suggests that the words of Scripture are not merely human but infused with God's Spirit.
Syntactical Breakdown
Subject: Scripture

The main focus of the sentence, highlighting the sacred texts.
Verb: is

Connects the subject to its attribute, establishing a statement of identity or condition.
Predicate: God-breathed

Describes the nature of the subject, emphasizing that Scripture is not just any writing but is infused with divine authority and inspiration.

The phrase "Scripture is God-breathed" conveys several significant theological points:

Divine Origin: The assertion that Scripture is inspired by God means that its authority comes from the Creator Himself, making it a reliable source for doctrine and guidance.

Inspiration of the Holy Spirit: This concept reflects the work of the Holy Spirit in guiding the authors of Scripture, ensuring that what they wrote was in accordance with God's will.

Authority and Truth: The understanding that Scripture is God-breathed supports its inerrancy and infallibility in conveying truth, as it is ultimately rooted in the character of God, who cannot lie (Titus 1:2).


In summary, "Scripture is God-breathed" encapsulates the divine inspiration and authority of the Bible, affirming that it is a living document shaped by God's will, intended for the instruction and edification of believers. The morphological and syntactical breakdown of this phrase helps to underscore its significance in the Christian faith.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture (+) is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 in order that the person of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.



All Scripture [Every Scripture] ... -- Many scholars like Lenski say there is no difference in these renderings by various translations. Most translations follow "All Scripture."

All Scripture -- would include the N.T. sacred writings as well as the Old Testament. As Paul has already referred to the OT in vs. 15, he now deliberately includes the Sacred Writings of the New Covenant as well.

Inspired of God -- Paul uses the Greek term theopneustos here which is a combination of two other Greek words: theos (“God”) and pneo (“breathe”) meaning “God-breathed". "God-breathed, means breathed into by God, inspired. The rabbinical teaching was that the Spirit of God rested on and in the prophets and spoke through them so that their words did not come from themselves, but from the mouth of God and they spoke and wrote in the Holy Spirit. The early church was in entire agreement with this view." (Rienecker, LKGNT)

INSPIRATION - 2Ti_3:16, 2Pe_1:21, 1Co_14:37, 1Th_2:13, Gal_1:11-12, Mat_17:5, Luk_1:68-70,

Profitable -- Scripture is valuable because it corrects false teaching while building up believers to live godly lives.

Doctrine -- Teaching; We must teach scripture.

Reproof -- Rebuke- for the purpose of “refutation” of a false statement or argument. PPC

"Only the Christian morality is the true ethic governing human behavior. The pre-Christian Gentiles forsook God, and the result was the near-universal debauchery of the human race. There can be no doubt that forsaking the NT ethics on such things as adultery, homosexuality, drunkenness, etc., if persisted in, will have the same final result." Coffman.

Correction -- Setting a person on a straight course.

Instruction -- Training, instructing believers in God's ways.

Doctrine = tells us what is right.
Reproof = tells us what is not right
Correction = tell how to get right
Instruction = tells how to stay right.

AUTHORITY OF THE BIBLE

2Ti_3:16,
Deu_18:20,
Rev_22:18-19,
Deu_4:2,
Num_24:12-13,
Luk_16:15,
Pro_14:12.
The final revelation - Gal_1:8-9,
Joh_16:13,
2Pe_1:3.

J.

Wow. Paul tells Timothy in a letter that all Scripture is God-breathed, and THEREFORE all Scripture is God-breathed. Wow. Is lifting yourself up by your own boot straps your daily exercise routine?

You might profit from this little tidbit on circular reasoning.

Is all Scripture God-breathed? Maybe so. Is 2 Tim. 3:16 proof of that? DON'T BE RIDICULOUS!

 

[Lizbeth]

Is all Scripture is God-breathed because it says so? (That would be circular reasoning, don't you think?)

Oh dear, we can see why the carnal mind is ENMITY with God.

Perhaps Jesus isn't the Son of God after all then. Perhaps He didn't die to atone for our sins after all. Perhaps He wasnt' resurrected after all. Perhaps the wages of sin isn't death after all. Perhaps the gospel isn't the mystery of God hid from the foundation of the world after all. Perhaps I've laid down my life to a bunch of factual errors after all. But I KNOW by FAITH that isn't the case.....because the Spirit witnesses truth to my spirit. And He DREW me to the bible as soon as I received Him, the same way He DREW me to Christ.

 

[St. SteVen]

Taken said:
When the Disciples first figured out…Spiritual Understanding goes far beyond Carnal Minded Understanding….they said…

Col 1:
[9] For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

Typically an Apostle is a messenger…and a Disciple is a student…An Apostle is both, ever learning.

Your sarcasm is noted.
It is the message that carries the weight, not the human messenger.

It was a fact-check and an opportunity for sarcasm. (hard to resist)

Question: Does spiritual understanding BEGIN with "Carnal Minded Understanding"?

It seems to me that the spiritual insights come when we look, or read, in our flesh, but are then STRUCK with a spiritual insight.
When the words stand off the page, did we not shift from a carnal reading to a spiritual reading?

We do our devotional reading as a matter of spiritual discipline, hoping for spiritual insight to take with us as we go.
Essentially the discipline begins as a fleshly exercise of "devotion" (crucifying the flesh) for the spiritual benefit.
At times there is no reward for our fleshly effort. At other times we are rewarded with deep spiritual insights.

[

 

[RedFan]

Oh dear, we can see why the carnal mind is ENMITY with God.

Perhaps Jesus isn't the Son of God after all then. Perhaps He didn't die to atone for our sins after all. Perhaps He wasnt' resurrected after all. Perhaps the wages of sin isn't death after all. Perhaps the gospel isn't the mystery of God hid from the foundation of the world after all. Perhaps I've laid down my life to a bunch of factual errors after all. But I KNOW by FAITH that isn't the case.....because the Spirit witnesses truth to my spirit. And He DREW me to the bible as soon as I received Him, the same way He DREW me to Christ.

I happen think the Bible IS God-breathed -- on its own merits, not because it says so. I share your faith that Jesus is the Son of God, died to atone for sin and was raised from the dead. The early Church got that right, well before the very first book of the NT was written. It's true because it happened, NOT because later writers wrote that it happened.

I think the world is round, not flat. If you tell me the world is round BECAUSE THE SKY IS BLUE, am I not permitted to criticize your logic without being branded a Flat Earth believer?

 

[Lizbeth]

@St. SteVen said

Why would we need to "test scripture against other scripture to verify them"?


RJ, says, I’ve never understood this either.

Why would I need to test loads of scripture, to know in my heart that I’m a child of God?

I was Born Again in my spirit, by the testifying of the Holy Spirit with my spirit that I’m Born Again/ Gods child.

Like I’ve explained many times, the Spirit speaks to us all differently, ways that we understand...only he can bring us to understanding his word....many disagree with me..no problem, I stand on what I believe God is witnessing to my spirit.

Some would call it circular reasoning, but there’s a principle in scripture to let everything be established by two or three witnesses. When we see scripture affirming and agreeing with other parts of scripture, it becomes like solid ground that we can walk on. The better we know the scriptures the more we can see that God’s word is unified and consistent throughout….it’s flawless…..as scripture itself testifies. (That is aside from minor shortcomings in translation.)

This is not my opinion, but God's word:

Deu 17:6

At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

Deu 19:15

One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

Mat 18:16

But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

2Co 13:1

This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

1Ti 5:19

Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.

Heb 10:28

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

 

[Johann]

Some would call it circular reasoning, but there’s a principle in scripture to let everything be established by two or three witnesses. When we see scripture affirming and agreeing with other parts of scripture, it becomes like solid ground that we can walk on. The better we know the scriptures the more we can see that God’s word is unified and consistent throughout….it’s flawless…..as scripture itself testifies. (That is aside from minor shortcomings in translation.)

This is not my opinion, but God's word:

Deu 17:6

At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

Deu 19:15

One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

Mat 18:16

But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

2Co 13:1

This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

1Ti 5:19

Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.

Heb 10:28

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Preach it sister.

J.

 

[RedFan]

Some would call it circular reasoning, but there’s a principle in scripture to let everything be established by two or three witnesses. When we see scripture affirming and agreeing with other parts of scripture, it becomes like solid ground that we can walk on. The better we know the scriptures the more we can see that God’s word is unified and consistent throughout….it’s flawless…..as scripture itself testifies. (That is aside from minor shortcomings in translation.)

This is not my opinion, but God's word:

Deu 17:6

At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

Deu 19:15

One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

Mat 18:16

But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

2Co 13:1

This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

1Ti 5:19

Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.

Heb 10:28

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

The witnesses mentioned in these passages had to be EYE-witnesses. Otherwise their testimony would be rejected as hearsay. Can we agree on that much?

 

[Lizbeth]

@Lizbeth said.

Sister. On the other hand.......did Paul when he confronted Peter with his error, say to him, you "may be" in error, or was he up front and direct about it, calling a spade a spade? We need to have the courage of our convictions. The bible doesn't say we are fluff sharpening fluff, but iron sharpening iron. And how did Jesus confront the error of His day? Aren't we supposed to be like Him? We mustn't let fine-sounding words lead us astray and shut the truth down. The spirit of the world via political correctness has badly infiltrated the church which used to have a backbone, and is destroying it. Just saying.


Only the Spirit can show us when we are in error...

Imo, there is a way to show one if they are in error, not by writing off everything they say, ..which I’ve seen some do on this thread.

With respect, I have noticed that you come across as “ all knowing “ whose to say you aren’t in error?

You seem to think that what you say is “ right”...and dismiss the opinions of others...everyone here is voicing an opinion on what they believe to be God’s truth.....

You .like everyone else is going by what you believe the word of God to be saying...not everyone agrees with you, ..God does not force, neither does he tell us to keep going over the same old ground in the same old manner, repeat after repeat...now, if I’m in error, please show me.

I can't speak for others but I haven't laid my life down to an opinion and I don't endeavour to be obedient to opinions. If that were the case we would of all people be most miserable. And I just try to share what the Lord shows me, often as He is showing it, and am often edified by it as much as anyone.

That said I have been getting irritated and indignant here, whether it is "righteous indignation" or my flesh I don't know.

 

[St. SteVen]

Some would call it circular reasoning, but there’s a principle in scripture to let everything be established by two or three witnesses. When we see scripture affirming and agreeing with other parts of scripture, it becomes like solid ground that we can walk on. The better we know the scriptures the more we can see that God’s word is unified and consistent throughout….it’s flawless…..as scripture itself testifies. (That is aside from minor shortcomings in translation.)

I address the "two or three witnesses" aspect below.
But you are still left with the conundrum of attempting to PROVE something (God's Word = the Bible)
that you have already declared as the STANDARD of TRUTH. Why do you need "two or three witnesses"?
Was it "flawless" before or after you proved it with "two or three witnesses"?
Or was it flawless at all? Debatable.

This is not my opinion, but God's word:

Deu 17:6

At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

Seems like a misapplication of OT law.
Obviously, the witnesses in the case were those giving court testimony.
The reason the TCs forbid bearing false witness.

[

 

[Lizbeth]

The witnesses mentioned in these passages had to be EYE-witnesses. Otherwise their testimony would be rejected as hearsay. Can we agree on that much?

Oh brother.....we need ears to hear what the SPIRIT is saying.

 

[St. SteVen]

Oh brother.....we need ears to hear what the SPIRIT is saying.

Smoke and mirrors.

I find no scripture that asks us to verify the truth of the scriptures by calling "two or three witnesses".
Where did this seemingly unbiblical practice originate?

/

 

[Lizbeth]

This seems contradictory.

If "God's word" (which you define as the Bible) is "the standard for truth".
Why would we need to "test scripture against other scripture to verify them"?
Shouldn't they stand alone if they are indeed the standard for truth?

I understand the importance of comparing scriptures, but your conclusions don't add up.

--- PARODY ---

Bible student #1: God's word is the standard for truth.
Bible student #2: Do you mean the Bible?
Bible student #1: Well, of course. What else would it be?
Bible student #2: Can the the standard for truth be verified?
Bible student #1: Yes. We can test scripture against other scripture to verify them.
Bible student #2: Why would you need to verify the standard for truth?
Bible student #1: The standard needs to be tested.
Bible student #2: The standard can't be absolute if it needs to be tested.
Bible student #1: God's word is the standard for truth.
Bible student #2: It sounds more like you are choosing your own interpretation.
Bible student #1: Scripture verifies scripture.
Bible student #2: Which one is the standard for truth?
Bible student #1: Which one? What do you mean?
Bible student #2: The scripture in question, or the one you are using to verify it?
Bible student #1: Both.
Bible student #2: What's the point of verifying then?
Bible student #1: To confirm the truth.
Bible student #2: You said, "God's word is the standard for truth."

[

Where is God in this carnal minded reasoning? You know....His SPIRIT? Isn't He the one who both unifies the Body and leads us into all truth?

 

[RedFan]

Oh brother.....we need ears to hear what the SPIRIT is saying.

Oh sister -- the different Bible writers who wrote different and contradictory accounts of the same thing had ears to hear what the SPIRIT is saying too.

 

[Lizbeth]

Sorry, that explanation for Matthew's error won't fly. Matthew just blew this one. I'll quote Jerome: "“This passage is not found in Jeremiah at all but in Zechariah.”

Perhaps Matthew was just having a senior moment when penning 27:9, thought he knew which OT writing contained the story, and got it wrong. Or maybe he was genuinely unsure and decided to take a wild-ass guess because he was too lazy to hoof it down to the Temple and check the scrolls – and then forgot to do so the next time he was in town. Regardless, can’t we agree that God didn’t put those words in his pen?


Sorry, that won't fly either. All four gospel writers understood that Passover starts at sundown. John just had a different theological point to convey to his readership. John’s gospel was never intended to be a historical record. Its author’s purpose in writing was not to chronicle but to persuade. He says so himself in 20:31 (“But these are written so that you may come to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through believing you may have life in his name.”). It is this element of the gospel – “if you believe, you may have life in his name” – which mattered to the author and which should matter to us. It is unnecessary to hold to the literal truth of each and every one of the events recounted; the message of the gospel must be believed, and that message conveys theological truth, not necessarily literal truth.

Why is this a problem for you?

I haven't look into it so don't know the facts.....but I don't doubt that there is an explanation.

 

[Lizbeth]

Oh sister -- the different Bible writers who wrote different and contradictory accounts of the same thing had ears to hear what the SPIRIT is saying too.

I find the Holy Spirit is well able to resolve what appear to be contradictions but aren't.

 

[St. SteVen]

Where is God in this carnal minded reasoning? You know....His SPIRIT? Isn't He the one who both unifies the Body and leads us into all truth?

I think the "carnal minded reasoning" is your claim that we need "two or three witnesses" to confirm that scripture is the standard of truth.

[

 

[Lizbeth]

Preach it sister.

J.

You too brother! God bless you!

I can't keep up here, might have to leave it at that.

 

[St. SteVen]

Oh sister -- the different Bible writers who wrote different and contradictory accounts of the same thing had ears to hear what the SPIRIT is saying too.

Right.
So...
- Were the contradictory accounts "god-breathed" (inspired word-for-word)? And found to be contradictory...
- Or were they simply "inspired", but a matter of human eye-witness recording.

AND...
- Are other human eye-witness testimonies (supporting scriptures)
being called to confirm that the Bible is the STANDARD for truth?

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[St. SteVen]

I find the Holy Spirit is well able to resolve what appear to be contradictions but aren't.

Is that what they are calling apologetic workarounds now?
The Holy Spirit resolving obvious contradictions in "the inspired Word of God". ???

[