Getting to the heart of the Amil confusion

[Stewardofthemystery]

Ok and?

You were trying to equate receiving the Holy Spirit with being bodily resurrected. It is not the same thing. One precedes the other, but one is not the other, nor does it replace the other.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You were trying to equate receiving the Holy Spirit with being bodily resurrected. It is not the same thing. One precedes the other, but one is not the other, nor does it replace the other.

Huh? Show me where I said being filled with the Holy Spirit is bodily resurrection?! Else, you are lying.

 

[ewq1938]

You were trying to equate receiving the Holy Spirit with being bodily resurrected. It is not the same thing. One precedes the other, but one is not the other, nor does it replace the other.

Amill believes in a physical resurrection but sees that happening later in Rev 20 at the GWTJ. They see the first resurrection as accepting Christ and being saved, a spiritual resurrection. They are wrong on all of that since those of the first resurrection were spiritually "resurrected" BEFORE they stood up for Christ and rejected the mark and worship and were beheaded etc. That's why Amill's interpretation of Rev 20 will always be wrong because they ignore those details.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus


These people were born again a long time before they were beheaded. Any resurrection or coming to life that happens in this verse is the type of resurrection a saved Christian experiences after they have been physically killed (going from physically dead to physically alive) but Amill cannot understand this.
.

, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;


This tells us why they were killed and WHEN they were killed. They died during the trib found in Rev 13, 42 months when the two beasts are in power.

and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

And the only resurrection a dead saved Christian can experience is a physical resurrection NOT A SPIRITYAL resurrection because that took place before this resurrection took place.

Textual details and context will always dismantle the Amill position. Always.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

They see the first resurrection as accepting Christ and being saved, a spiritual resurrection.

Right, they see being born again of the Spirit as the first (bodily) resurrection as is mentioned in Rev. 20:4-6.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Huh? Show me where I said being filled with the Holy Spirit is bodily resurrection?! Else, you are lying.

The first resurrection is a bodily resurrection as is confirmed in Rev. 20:4-6. You Amils are trying to redefine the meaning of the first bodily resurrection by saying when you are born again you have already partaken in the first resurrection, even though you have not been bodily resurrected.

 

[jeffweeder]

That is called being born again, it in no way replaces the definition of the first resurrection as is mentioned in Rev. 20:4-6.

John is consistent in his teaching in Jn 5 and rev 20. In both passages he speaks of passing from death to life that gives us a blessed hope of not coming into Judgment through faith.


Jn 5
24 “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, the person who hears My word [the one who heeds My message], and believes and trusts in Him who sent Me, has (possesses now) eternal life [that is, eternal life actually begins—the believer is transformed], and does not come into judgment and condemnation, but has passed [over] from death into life.

Rev 20
6 Blessed (happy, prosperous, to be admired) and holy is the person who takes part in the first resurrection; over these the second death [which is eternal separation from God, the lake of fire] has no power or authority, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and they will reign with Him a thousand years.

It is also written that those who believe will speak the Truth by the Holy Spirit. Amils are not speaking the Truth by the Holy Spirit.

We speak what Jesus and his Apostles wrote concerning his coming.
They do not support PREMILL.

Give me one scripture from the Gospels or Epistles that even remotely alludes to a premill interpretation
regarding their second coming narratives.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

John is consistent in his teaching in Jn 5 and rev 20. In both passages he speaks of passing from death to life that gives us a blessed hope of not coming into Judgment through faith.


Jn 5
24 “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, the person who hears My word [the one who heeds My message], and believes and trusts in Him who sent Me, has (possesses now) eternal life [that is, eternal life actually begins—the believer is transformed], and does not come into judgment and condemnation, but has passed [over] from death into life.

The spirit being renewed by the Holy Spirit is not the same as a bodily resurrection.

Note the difference below….

Romans 8:10-11

King James Version

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10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Rev 20
6 Blessed (happy, prosperous, to be admired) and holy is the person who takes part in the first resurrection; over these the second death [which is eternal separation from God, the lake of fire] has no power or authority, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and they will reign with Him a thousand years.

Verse 4 shows these souls were physically beheaded= physically dead

Revelation 20:4

King James Version

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4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Give me one scripture from the Gospels or Epistles that even remotely alludes to a premill interpretation
regarding their second coming narratives.

Note the context below of the resurrection is about a bodily resurrection from the dead.

“Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.

34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:

35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The first resurrection is a bodily resurrection as is confirmed in Rev. 20:4-6.

God nor I said this. It was YOU who insisted the verses are talking about bodily resurrection.

You Amils are trying to redefine the meaning of the first bodily resurrection by saying when you are born again you have already partaken in the first resurrection,

This is a false witness.

even though you have not been bodily resurrected.

This is what God said. You didn’t like hearing this. I’m done with you on this subject.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

God nor I said this. It was YOU who insisted the verses are talking about bodily resurrection.

So Jesus was not bodily resurrected being the first fruit of the first resurrection? Lol

 

[TribulationSigns]

So Jesus was not bodily resurrected being the first fruit of the first resurrection? Lol

Oh Lord, have mercy on you! You don't get it! Listen...Christ's physical healings, death, and resurrection point to Christ as our Saviour, and beside Him there is no other and how these affect us.

For example:

1.) Christ healed physical blindness, which was a sign/token foreshadowing Christ's healing of our spiritual blindness so we can see the Gospel Truth.

2.) Christ healed physical deafness, which was a sign/token foreshadowing Christ's healing of our spiritual deafness so we can hear the Word of God.

3.) Christ, as a doctor, healed physical sickness, which was a sign/token foreshadowing Christ's healing of our spiritual sickness so that our sin can be forgiveness and forgotten.

4.) Christ raising a person up from the dead, which was a sign/token foreshadowing Christ's raising us up from spiritual death.

5.) Christ cast out the spirit of devils, which was a sign/token foreshadowing Christ made us spiritually alive and start receiving the Word of God.

Don't you understand? Don't you get it? As it is written:

Mark 8:18-21

• "Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?
• When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve.
• And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven.
• And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?"

Likewise, how is it that you do not understand that it's NOT about physical serpents, scorpions, eyes, ears, devils, prisons, bread or hunger, it's about the spiritual nature of these things. Christ doing His supernatural miracle of making a blind man see was a portent or indicator of the Spiritual work that would make the spiritually blind to see, and through which the spiritually hungry would be fed, and because of which the spiritually bound might be freed from captivity, and so that the spirit of devils might be cast out, as the gospel would go to new tongues or languages.

John 6:58

• "This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever."

Just as the supernatural miracle of God feeding Israel with physical Manna from Heaven actually pointed to Christ, the spiritual bread of life for mankind. And Christ feeding of the hungry with a few crumbs was a sign prefiguring and representing the Spiritual work of feeding His people with the Word of God. Listen to this... EVERY SUPERNATURAL MIRACLE in Scripture has a corresponding gospel revelation. It is not something we can do physical supernatural like Christ but point to our spiritual work that save people!!! Geez, we but have to search (Proverbs 25:2) it out, as is our duty!

So now, let's look at Christ's suffering, physical death, and bodily RESURRECTION. Think carefully. What do you THINK why the Lord did these things? And how does this apply to the state of our spirit that we do not need to worry about second death? Humm? I will wait for your response to see if you take the time to reflect and pray about this before making the ungrounded babbling that the first resurrection refers only to a bodily resurrection, rather than to our spiritual regeneration (being born again) that Christ's bodily death and resurrection which was a sign/token foreshadowing to! Just like all of his supernatural miracles above! Otherwise you are as blind as the Jews of His days and many people today because "they do not understand His Word" It is up to the Lord to reveal the truth to you that I merely testified according to His Word on this matter.

Selah!!

@WPM

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Oh Lord, have mercy on you!

He already did.

You don't get it!

I got it!

Christ's bodily death and resurrection which was a sign/token foreshadowing to!

@WPM

You missed this one….
Luke 2:34
And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;”

Don’t you know Jesus himself was a sign of the physical death and resurrection of His people/body? We are the body of Christ!

Hosea 6:2
After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight

 

[TribulationSigns]

I got it!

Really? Look at what you quoted:

Hosea 6:2
After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight

It is your bad habit of taking the verse out of context. Learn to read the context first!

Hos 6:1-3
(1) Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
(2) After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
(3) Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

Do you understand what Hosea is talking about? Really? To those of us sinners who return unto the LORD, God shall come to us - not just the opportunity to hear the gospel - but as the former rain, when the Holy Spirit gives us a new birth, as former rain for the Old Testament Saints and Latter Rain for the New Testament Saints. It is the spiritual regeneration, thanks to the working of the Holy Spirit (living water).

This "IS" the FIRST RESURRECTION for those who take part in Christ's resurrection by believe it. Did you already forget about the living water going to the former sea and hinder sea in Zechariah 14? Same principle. It has nothing to do with "bodily resurrection." Here is the pearl, learn to embrace it instead of trample it underfoot like a pig!

 

[ewq1938]

Right, they see being born again of the Spirit as the first (bodily) resurrection as is mentioned in Rev. 20:4-6.

Yes but they have it out of order because one does not get beheaded (physically killed) and then get saved (spiritual resurrection).

One gets saved first, then get beheaded for the witness of Jesus, then the only resurrection left would be the physical resurrection which is what Rev 20 is talking about.

Clear proof Amill's understanding of Rev 20 ignores what is actually written.

 

[WPM]

Yes but they have it out of order because one does not get beheaded (physically killed) and then get saved (spiritual resurrection).

One gets saved first, then get beheaded for the witness of Jesus, then the only resurrection left would be the physical resurrection which is what Rev 20 is talking about.

Clear proof Amill's understanding of Rev 20 ignores what is actually written.

More lies - to misrepresent Amil. That is because you have got no answer to the truth it promotes. Why can you not tell the truth about Amil?

You are totally unqualified to speak on their behalf. Your views have been refuted for years despite your attempted intimidation. You have no answer. All you have is avoidance and insults.

Man's salvation is first (rising in Christ's first resurrection), then martyrdom comes after that for those that are ordained to the same (which ushers them immediately into the presence of Christ to reign with Him), finally comes the physical resurrection happens at Christ's second coming.

Any other representation of Amil is a blatant distortion, and is deliberate and willful attempt to deceive. Be warned!

 

[TribulationSigns]

More lies - to misrepresent Amil.

Any other distortion is deliberate and willful to deceive. Be warned!

Agreed!

 

[jeffweeder]

The spirit being renewed by the Holy Spirit is not the same as a bodily resurrection.

I agree.
There is however a passing from death to life as we are born again of the Spirit.
God said to Adam the day you eat of the forbidden fruit you shall surely die.
He didn't die physically that day but Spiritually.
So we are born AGAIN when the Lord breathes his life into us a second time.

John 20:21-23​

​

Amplified Bible​

​

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21 Then Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you [as My representatives].” 22 And when He said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.



That is the impact of the first resurrection.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

One gets saved first, then get beheaded for the witness of Jesus, then the only resurrection left would be the physical resurrection which is what Rev 20 is talking about.

Clear proof Amill's understanding of Rev 20 ignores what is actually written.

Exactly.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

I agree.
There is however a passing from death to life as we are born again of the Spirit.

I don’t disagree with that, it is how Amils are trying to replace the meaning of the first resurrection as is defined in Rev. 20:4-6 with being born again spiritually.

If they did truly have the Holy Spirit (Spirit of Truth) they would know the difference.

 

[jeffweeder]

I don’t disagree with that, it is how Amils are trying to replace the meaning of the first resurrection as is defined in Rev. 20:4-6 with being born again spiritually.

If they did truly have the Holy Spirit (Spirit of Truth) they would know the difference.

We know John had the Holy Spirit and he didn't see a difference.

John 5
24 “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, the person who hears My word [the one who heeds My message], and believes and trusts in Him who sent Me, has (possesses now) eternal life [that is, eternal life actually begins—the believer is transformed], and does not come into judgment and condemnation, but has passed [over] from death into life.
25 I assure you and most solemnly say to you, a time is coming and is [here] now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will live.

John in
Rev 20
6 Blessed (happy, prosperous, to be admired) and holy is the person who takes part in the first resurrection; over these the second death [which is eternal separation from God, the lake of fire] has no power or authority,


Do we have this assurance now or in the future resurrection?
John filled with the Spirit said NOW.

 

[ewq1938]

John 5
24 “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, the person who hears My word [the one who heeds My message], and believes and trusts in Him who sent Me, has (possesses now) eternal life [that is, eternal life actually begins—the believer is transformed], and does not come into judgment and condemnation, but has passed [over] from death into life.

This is being saved in a spirtual sense by accepting Christ while physically alive.

25 I assure you and most solemnly say to you, a time is coming and is [here] now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will live.

This "time coming" is a reference to the future bodily resurrection which we see in Rev 20. There, saved Christians stand up for Christ during the GT, are killed through beheadings, then later they live again which is the result of the physical resurrection. Teh rest of the dead wait for a thousand years before they have their physical resurrection.

Amill presents Rev 20 as people who are unsaved for some reason stand up for Christ and reject the mark, are beheaded, then after being dead become Christians and are saved/spiritually resurrected. It is false that unsaved people get saved after they die in Rev 20.