Freed : From Calvinism and HyperCalvinism )Tulip<>5 Pont.

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ElectedbyHim

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Why are you posting the above as if it's not believed by all Christians?


Pelagius was in debate with Augustine about grace.
Pelagius believed man had free will.
Pelagius did not believe man NEEDED GRACE to avoid sin.
THIS WAS THE HERESY....
NOT Pelagius and Free Will as you've titled your post.

This is NOT what the council of Ephesus was concerned with.
I believe you have your councils mixed up. Ephesus was about the divinity of Jesus.
The early church ALWAYS believed man had free will...except for the gnostics which were removed from the church.

What Pelagius taught/believed is that MAN DOES NOT NEED GRACE TO LIVE WITHOUT SIN.

EVERY Christian believes man needs God's grace TO LIVE WITHOUT SIN.
Again, this was the heresy for which Pelagius was ex-communicated.

This is from Brittanica. As you can see, Pelagius definetly believed in free will:

particularly Pelagius’s insistence on humankind’s basically good moral nature and on individual responsibility for voluntarily choosing Christian asceticism for spiritual advancement.

source: Original sin | Definition, Consequences, & Facts | Britannica
Why are you posting the above as if it's not believed by all Christians?

Because many self-professed christians believe the error of free will in salvation.

Not sure where you are getting your information from.

But.......

Pelagianism is that teaching, originating in the late fourth century, which stresses man’s ability to take the initial steps toward salvation by his own efforts, apart from special grace. It is sharply opposed by Augustinianism, which emphasizes the absolute necessity of God’s interior grace for man’s salvation.

Pelagius was an eminently moral person, who became a fashionable teacher at Rome late in the fourth century. British by birth, he was a zealous ascetic. Whether he was a monk or not we cannot say, but he clearly supported monastic ideals. In his early writings he argued against the Arians but fired his big guns against the Manichaeans. Their dualistic fatalism infuriated the moralist in him.

While in Rome, Pelagius studied Augustine’s anti-Manichaean writings, particularly On Free Will. He came to oppose passionately Augustine’s quietism, reflected in his prayer in the Confessions: “Give what thou commandest—and command what thou wilt” (X, 31, 45).

When the Visigoths surged upon Rome in 410/411, Pelagius sought refuge in Africa. After avoiding an encounter with Augustine, he moved on to Jerusalem, where he gained a good reputation. No one took offense at his teaching.

Meanwhile in Africa, Pelagius’s pupil Coelestius, a less cautious and more superficial man, had pointedly drawn out the consequences of Pelagius’s teaching on freedom. Churchmen in the area of Carthage solemnly charged him with heresy. According to Augustine, Coelestius did not accept the “remission of sins” in infant baptism. Such an assertion of “innocence” of newborn babies denied the basic relationship in which all men stand “since Adam.” It was claiming that unredeemed man is sound and free to do all good. It was rendering salvation by Christ superfluous.

Augustine sent his own disciple Orosius to the East in an attempt to gain the condemnation of Pelagius. But in the East churchmen were unable to see anything more than an obstinate quarrel about trivialities. They acquitted Pelagius, a decision that infuriated the Africans, who turned toward Rome and compelled Pope Innocent I to expressly condemn the new heresy.

The keystone of Pelagianism is the idea of man’s unconditional free will and his moral responsibility. In creating man God did not subject him, like other creatures, to the law of nature but gave him the unique privilege of accomplishing the divine will by his own choice. This possibility of freely choosing the good entails the possibility of choosing evil.

According to Pelagius there are three features in human action: power (posse), will (velle), and the realization (esse). The first comes exclusively from God; the other two belong to man. Thus, as man acts, he merits praise or blame. Whatever his follower may have said, Pelagius himself held the conception of a divine law proclaiming to men what they ought to do and setting before them the prospect of supernatural rewards and punishments. If man enjoys freedom of choice, it is by the express bounty of his Creator; he ought to use it for those ends that God prescribes.

The rest of Pelagianism flows from this central thought of freedom. First, it rejects the idea that man’s will has any intrinsic bias in favor of wrongdoing as a result of the fall. Since each soul is created immediately by God, as Pelagius believed, then it cannot come into the world soiled by original sin transmitted from Adam. Before a person begins exercising his will, “there is only in him what God has created.” The effect of infant baptism, then, is not eternal life but “spiritual illumination, adoption as children of God, citizenship of the heavenly Jerusalem.”

Second, Pelagius considers grace purely an external aid provided by God. He leaves no room for any special interior action of God upon the soul. By “grace” Pelagius really means free will itself or the revelation of God’s law through reason, instructing us in what we should do and holding out to us eternal sanctions. Since this revelation has become obscured through evil customs, grace now includes the law of Moses and the teaching and example of Christ.

This grace is offered equally to all. God is no respecter of persons. By merit alone men advance in holiness. God’s predestination operates according to the quality of the lives God forsees men will lead.

Theologians often describe Pelagianism as a form of naturalism. But this label scarcely does justice to its religious spirit. Defective though the system is in its recognition of man’s weakness, it does reflect an awareness of man’s high calling and the claims of the moral law. Yet Pelagianism’s one-sidedness remains an inadequate interpretation of Christianity. This was especially so after Coelestius pushed into the foreground the denial of original sin, the teaching that Adam was created mortal, and the idea that children are eligible for eternal life even without baptism. This rosy view of human nature and inadequate understanding of divine grace was finally condemned in 431 at the Council of Ephesus.


Fig 7.1
Councils Dealing with Pelagianism
Synod of Carthage418Condemned Pelagianism
Council of Ephesus431Condemned Pelagianism
Council of Orange592Condemned Semi-Pelagianism
Synod of Valence855
Concil of Trent1545–63
Sproul, R. (2000, c1995). Faith alone : The evangelical doctrine of justification (electronic ed.) (137). Grand Rapids: Baker Books.

[1]





[1]Elwell, W. A., & Elwell, W. A. (1997, c1984). Vol. 1: Biographical entries from Evangelical dictionary of theology. Biographical entries from Evangelical Dictionary of Theology. (electronic ed.). Baker reference library; Logos Library System. Grand Rapids: Baker Book House.
 

GodsGrace

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In those exacts words? NO! but the concept as spelled out in Tulip, yes.
Let's get serious here RN.
IF you think the concept is spelled out in the bible, you're going to have to show us where/how.


Total depravity does not mean a person is as bad as they can be. It means an unsaved person is as bad off as they can be.
Total Depravity means that a person is so depraved as to be UNABLE TO SEEK GOD and this is why God has to save whoever He wants to save.
If you're going to be reformed....
then at least know reformed doctrine.

Irresistible grace- Jesus clearly showed that in JOhn 6.
Show how please.
How is irresistible grace shown in John 6?
(and you don't even give the verse, but we know which one you mean).
So you are saying mans will in soteriology is sovereign over Gods?
WHERE/WHEN or in what post did I say that?
God is sovereign.
God gives enough grace TO ALL to give TO ALL the chance to be saved.
Man accepts...seeks God...moves toward God...
God responds with the 3 gifts in Ephesians 2:8-9

Man is not in a sparring match with God.
GOD IS SOVEREIGN.

What does God's sovereignty have to do with anything
EXCEPT in the reformed faith where God is pitted against man and, like a boxing match, one has to win and one has to lose.

HOW LITTLE you think of God the Creator!

These are people who already belonged to the Lord. Now we have a new structure
Hebrews 13:5
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
You didn't post Hebrews 13:5
What is the new structure?
If the people were already with God,
why is God telling them to seek Him?

Do not forget that the Mosaic Covenant was a different dispensation with different rules.
What does the Mosaic Covenant have to do with our conversation?
Could you clarify?

I believe teh vewrses above 100% but they must be kept within the other verses that no one can come to Jesus unless the Father drags them. If you think that is not seeking- please elucidate.
Here's some elucidation:
Some verse say DRAG
Some verses say DRAW

Give me the verse and I'll tell you what it says.
English...what a bad language to have to translate from the Greek....

It is not Calvin but God who teaches man will not seek god:
Oh. After at least 10 to 15 verses in the thread alone, stating clearly that man is to seek God...
you say that God teaches that man will not seek God?

Please post some verses that clearly state that man cannot seek God...
Just as I posted many that state than God can.

And wouldn't you say that if you're right
and I'm right
It creates quite a conflict within the bible.

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Oh for goodness sake RN...
HOW MANY TIMES must I go over this most boring verse that doesn't mean what you or any other calvinist thinks it means.
Could we be INTELLECTUALLY HONEST or must we resort to dishonesty in order to get an incorrect verse to be accepted??
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

It was not Calcin that brought it up- but God. Calvin merely agreed with Him.
Great.
But where in those verses does it state that man is unable to seek God?
And I mean generally....not 3,000 years ago in Psalms to a specific people.

Where does it state that man CANNOT resist the Holy Spirit after I posted verses that state that he can.
Please use scirpture.
 

GodsGrace

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But these verses do not speak to salvation, and that is what the I in tulip addresses solely. A believer can resist the will of God and suffer the consequences of sin for their resisitance, but they are still saved.
What?
I can resist the will of God and still be saved?

You say these verses have nothing to do with salvation?

RN....The I in tulip stands for IRRISESTIBLE GRACE.
This means that God's grace CANNOT be resisted.
This means that you MUST accept the Holy Ghost and salvation.

Again,,,if you're going to be reformed...please learn what the reformed believe.

And please post scripture showing that man has no free will and that WE MUST ACCEPT salvation if God chooses to give us salvation.
This concept is nowhere in the bible.

Let's try Joshua this time:
Joshua 24:14-15
14“Now, therefore, fear the LORD and serve Him in sincerity and truth; and put away the gods which your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD.
15“If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD,
choose for yourselves today whom you will serve:

Joshua tells the Israelites to PUT AWAY gods......a free will action

He tells them TO CHOOSE whom they will serve....a free will action.




Well as I am tqalking TULIP, I cannot answer to your sweeping condmenation. Calvinism is a whole theological system of which Tuli[p is a part. If you wish to address Calvinsim, seek others than me.
Why should I seek others?
YOU are posting to me about reformed/calvinist faith.
And which condemnation?
It's rather difficult to reply to your posts since I have to keep going back to my post.
Could you put my question in your reply? It's easy to do.

If you don't want to be known as a calvinist....
then don't speak as they do.

But I am willing to bet that you are at least what would be called a 3 point Calvinist on the TULIP sacxle.
SIR. LET ME ASSURE YOU.
I DON'T AGREE WITH ANY OF THE 5 POINTS OR 7 POINTS OR 10 POINTS.

As I've repeatedly said on this forum...Calvinism is heretical and non-biblical.
Find out what heretical means because it certainly is that.
Some don't know what it means and think it's a derogatory remark.


Please show some of them then. I am not talking about believers seeking God and choosing life, but unbelievers in and of their fallen human nature can freely seek god of that nature that 1 Cor. 2 says they cannot understand.
I said that all Christians agree with 1 Cor 2:14.

And YES...we ARE discussing Total Depravity and Irresistible grace.
Maybe you should find out for yourself what that means because you don't have the proper meaning.


And sorry, but Romans 3 is both about history and the present. Man hqasn't changed nor has the heart of the unsaved changed.
As usual, I don't know what you're talking about ...perhaps you could clarify.
 

GodsGrace

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So you are saying these verses have no application to modern man at all.

I wish you would have finished the quote from Romans.

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Do you believe this is no longer valid anymore?

Or how about this verse:

1 thess. 2:

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

God will send a delusion that makes people believe a lie! Unless you believe He won't do this in the future.


Sorry but it is not help to you!

If this was the only verse describing free will v. predestinatio0n, you would win. But it is not. NOr is it the hep you seek. It is a simple statement without addressing the why they won't believe. The very next verse says why:

YOU brought up the verse that helped me RN....
And YOU still have not shown any support in the bible for the absence of free will.
Whereas I have shown you verses that show man has free will.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Now as for people who get saved:

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

We are already sheep in Gods eyes. Just like paul said we were selected before the foundation of the world.

well the bible elsewhere clearly does- the most simplest answer is in Eph.2. because they are objects wrath!

We are His sheep because He chose us, not because we chose Him. E#ven though it is about discipleship, the priniciple still applies:

John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Oh for goodness sake.
Jesus was speaking to His disciples.
How desperate are reformed persons that they have to take verses out of context??
but as tot eh WHY? All I can answer is we are HIs sheep and those lost are not His sheep. We were not goates that turned into sheep nor weeds that Jesus turned into wheat!
Where is the verse about goats?
Jesus will put the goats to one side.
Why do goats have to turn into sheep?
Why do I keep hearing this odd idea?

Well for the about 12th time, I am neither reformed nor a Calvinist. Just a five pointer! Anything beying that is a lie.

I have explained- but I will not get into philosophical eisegesis as you do.
I think answering 4 posts in a row is enough.
I will reply to your last sentence.
For the 12th time you're stating that you're not reformed nor a calvinist....
JUST A FIVE POINTER!

This is too funny RN.
I won't even reply.
 

ElectedbyHim

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YOU brought up the verse that helped me RN....
And YOU still have not shown any support in the bible for the absence of free will.
Whereas I have shown you verses that show man has free will.

Oh for goodness sake.
Jesus was speaking to His disciples.
How desperate are reformed persons that they have to take verses out of context??

Where is the verse about goats?
Jesus will put the goats to one side.
Why do goats have to turn into sheep?
Why do I keep hearing this odd idea?


I think answering 4 posts in a row is enough.
I will reply to your last sentence.
For the 12th time you're stating that you're not reformed nor a calvinist....
JUST A FIVE POINTER!

This is too funny RN.
I won't even reply.
You would be surprised how many are 5-pointers and not reformed or calvinists.

Charismatics
Pentecostals
Baptists that do not associate with reformed.

I understand it make no sense.

It is like calling you a Pelagian when you only believe in free will and not his other doctrines.

In the theological world, one is either a Calvinist or an Arminian.

You would be considered an Arminian.
 

GodsGrace

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Because many self-professed christians believe the error of free will in salvation.
Free will is not an error.
It's all over the bible.
Please explain Philemon 1:14 if you think free will does not exist.

Not sure where you are getting your information from.

But.......

Pelagianism is that teaching, originating in the late fourth century, which stresses man’s ability to take the initial steps toward salvation by his own efforts, apart from special grace. It is sharply opposed by Augustinianism, which emphasizes the absolute necessity of God’s interior grace for man’s salvation.

Pelagius was an eminently moral person, who became a fashionable teacher at Rome late in the fourth century. British by birth, he was a zealous ascetic. Whether he was a monk or not we cannot say, but he clearly supported monastic ideals. In his early writings he argued against the Arians but fired his big guns against the Manichaeans. Their dualistic fatalism infuriated the moralist in him.

While in Rome, Pelagius studied Augustine’s anti-Manichaean writings, particularly On Free Will. He came to oppose passionately Augustine’s quietism, reflected in his prayer in the Confessions: “Give what thou commandest—and command what thou wilt” (X, 31, 45).

When the Visigoths surged upon Rome in 410/411, Pelagius sought refuge in Africa. After avoiding an encounter with Augustine, he moved on to Jerusalem, where he gained a good reputation. No one took offense at his teaching.

Meanwhile in Africa, Pelagius’s pupil Coelestius, a less cautious and more superficial man, had pointedly drawn out the consequences of Pelagius’s teaching on freedom. Churchmen in the area of Carthage solemnly charged him with heresy. According to Augustine, Coelestius did not accept the “remission of sins” in infant baptism. Such an assertion of “innocence” of newborn babies denied the basic relationship in which all men stand “since Adam.” It was claiming that unredeemed man is sound and free to do all good. It was rendering salvation by Christ superfluous.

Augustine sent his own disciple Orosius to the East in an attempt to gain the condemnation of Pelagius. But in the East churchmen were unable to see anything more than an obstinate quarrel about trivialities. They acquitted Pelagius, a decision that infuriated the Africans, who turned toward Rome and compelled Pope Innocent I to expressly condemn the new heresy.

The keystone of Pelagianism is the idea of man’s unconditional free will and his moral responsibility. In creating man God did not subject him, like other creatures, to the law of nature but gave him the unique privilege of accomplishing the divine will by his own choice. This possibility of freely choosing the good entails the possibility of choosing evil.

According to Pelagius there are three features in human action: power (posse), will (velle), and the realization (esse). The first comes exclusively from God; the other two belong to man. Thus, as man acts, he merits praise or blame. Whatever his follower may have said, Pelagius himself held the conception of a divine law proclaiming to men what they ought to do and setting before them the prospect of supernatural rewards and punishments. If man enjoys freedom of choice, it is by the express bounty of his Creator; he ought to use it for those ends that God prescribes.

The rest of Pelagianism flows from this central thought of freedom. First, it rejects the idea that man’s will has any intrinsic bias in favor of wrongdoing as a result of the fall. Since each soul is created immediately by God, as Pelagius believed, then it cannot come into the world soiled by original sin transmitted from Adam. Before a person begins exercising his will, “there is only in him what God has created.” The effect of infant baptism, then, is not eternal life but “spiritual illumination, adoption as children of God, citizenship of the heavenly Jerusalem.”

Second, Pelagius considers grace purely an external aid provided by God. He leaves no room for any special interior action of God upon the soul. By “grace” Pelagius really means free will itself or the revelation of God’s law through reason, instructing us in what we should do and holding out to us eternal sanctions. Since this revelation has become obscured through evil customs, grace now includes the law of Moses and the teaching and example of Christ.

This grace is offered equally to all. God is no respecter of persons. By merit alone men advance in holiness. God’s predestination operates according to the quality of the lives God forsees men will lead.

Theologians often describe Pelagianism as a form of naturalism. But this label scarcely does justice to its religious spirit. Defective though the system is in its recognition of man’s weakness, it does reflect an awareness of man’s high calling and the claims of the moral law. Yet Pelagianism’s one-sidedness remains an inadequate interpretation of Christianity. This was especially so after Coelestius pushed into the foreground the denial of original sin, the teaching that Adam was created mortal, and the idea that children are eligible for eternal life even without baptism. This rosy view of human nature and inadequate understanding of divine grace was finally condemned in 431 at the Council of Ephesus.


Fig 7.1
Councils Dealing with Pelagianism
Synod of Carthage418Condemned Pelagianism
Council of Ephesus431Condemned Pelagianism
Council of Orange592Condemned Semi-Pelagianism
Synod of Valence855
Concil of Trent1545–63

Sproul, R. (2000, c1995). Faith alone : The evangelical doctrine of justification (electronic ed.) (137). Grand Rapids: Baker Books.

[1]





[1]Elwell, W. A., & Elwell, W. A. (1997, c1984). Vol. 1: Biographical entries from Evangelical dictionary of theology. Biographical entries from Evangelical Dictionary of Theology. (electronic ed.). Baker reference library; Logos Library System. Grand Rapids: Baker Book House.
OK Did you write all of the post above?
If not, you need to post the source.

Here's what I know:
Pelagius taught that man could live sin-free on his own strength and that grace was not necessary.
THIS was the heresy...NOT free will.

Free will has been believed from within the strict biblical times to Revelation (and in the OT)
AND it was believed by those that were taught by the Apostles.

Augustine, in the 5th century, brought his manechaen, gnostic teachings with him into the CC.
Calvin loved Augustine and took from his teachings...

Trouble is: Augustine kept CHANGING HIS VIEW of some topics..... one of them was free will.
At times he believed in free will,,,and at times, over the span of his life, he did not believe in free will.
Calvin liked Augustine's writing when he did NOT believe in free will so he took from his those ideas.

Pelagius BELEIVED IN FREE WILL.

You could post all the councils as RCSproul has them....
but they had nothing to do with FREE WILL,,,
if not to CONFIRM IT.

This is church history.
 

GodsGrace

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You would be surprised how many are 5-pointers and not reformed or calvinists.

Charismatics
Pentecostals
Baptists that do not associate with reformed.

I understand it make no sense.

It is like calling you a Pelagian when you only believe in free will and not his other doctrines.

In the theological world, one is either a Calvinist or an Arminian.

You would be considered an Arminian.
That's interesting and I have come across persons that claim not to be reformed but believe the 5 points....
which, pretty much, IMO, encompass the important teachings of John Calvin, for instance (and others).
I find this rather amazing.
I also think that it's difficult to reason with someone that does not even know what they believe.
I know Catholic doctrine and have a really difficult time posting to members that THINK they know Catholic doctrine,
but they don't, but they insist that they do.

Now @Ronald Nolette claims he's not reformed nor calvinist (same difference)
BUT
he states he believes in the five points.
Amazing.

That's like me saying I believe in Purgatory, Confession, Mary's Assumption....
but I'm not Catholic!
 

GodsGrace

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You would be surprised how many are 5-pointers and not reformed or calvinists.

Charismatics
Pentecostals
Baptists that do not associate with reformed.

I understand it make no sense.

It is like calling you a Pelagian when you only believe in free will and not his other doctrines.

In the theological world, one is either a Calvinist or an Arminian.

You would be considered an Arminian.
Maybe some day I'll find out what an Arminian is.
I thought it was someone from Arminia.
LOL

I just don't feel I could absorb much more information to be totally honest.
How about orthodox Christianity?
orthodox...small o.
What the mainline teaches.
What the traditionals teach.

Why can't it just be Christian but with a different belief system?
Didn't Jesus say we should be united?
Is this, like, theological politics??? It causes division. More than necessary.
 

GodsGrace

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You would be surprised how many are 5-pointers and not reformed or calvinists.

Charismatics
Pentecostals
Baptists that do not associate with reformed.

I understand it make no sense.

It is like calling you a Pelagian when you only believe in free will and not his other doctrines.

In the theological world, one is either a Calvinist or an Arminian.

You would be considered an Arminian.
Just a side note....
I'm speaking to a member over there.
He uses the terms YOU PEOPLE
FREE WILLERS
This is terrible.
We had decided not to allow it but I know it's easy to miss.
We shouldn't be dividing ourselves as Christians,,,but only as pertains to doctrine.
 

ElectedbyHim

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Free will is not an error.
It's all over the bible.
Please explain Philemon 1:14 if you think free will does not exist.


OK Did you write all of the post above?
If not, you need to post the source.

Here's what I know:
Pelagius taught that man could live sin-free on his own strength and that grace was not necessary.
THIS was the heresy...NOT free will.

Free will has been believed from within the strict biblical times to Revelation (and in the OT)
AND it was believed by those that were taught by the Apostles.

Augustine, in the 5th century, brought his manechaen, gnostic teachings with him into the CC.
Calvin loved Augustine and took from his teachings...

Trouble is: Augustine kept CHANGING HIS VIEW of some topics..... one of them was free will.
At times he believed in free will,,,and at times, over the span of his life, he did not believe in free will.
Calvin liked Augustine's writing when he did NOT believe in free will so he took from his those ideas.

Pelagius BELEIVED IN FREE WILL.

You could post all the councils as RCSproul has them....
but they had nothing to do with FREE WILL,,,
if not to CONFIRM IT.

This is church history.
Please explain Philemon 1:14 if you think free will does not exist.

Again, no one is saying man does not have free will.

When talking salvation, man has no free will to com e to God.

That is why Pelagius was labeled a heretic.

As for Philemon 1:14. this has nothing to do with salvation.

Church history confirms Pelagius a heretic with his free will nonsense.

All of my sources in confirm this, the internet confirms this.

OK Did you write all of the post above?
If not, you need to post the source.

If you read what I posted in full, you would have seen the sources at the end of my post.
 

ElectedbyHim

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That's interesting and I have come across persons that claim not to be reformed but believe the 5 points....
which, pretty much, IMO, encompass the important teachings of John Calvin, for instance (and others).
I find this rather amazing.
I also think that it's difficult to reason with someone that does not even know what they believe.
I know Catholic doctrine and have a really difficult time posting to members that THINK they know Catholic doctrine,
but they don't, but they insist that they do.

Now @Ronald Nolette claims he's not reformed nor calvinist (same difference)
BUT
he states he believes in the five points.
Amazing.

That's like me saying I believe in Purgatory, Confession, Mary's Assumption....
but I'm not Catholic!
Many people have no clue what they believe.

I believe in the Rapture and Premill.

That is not reformed teaching.

Although, I do no consider Eschatology important in my mind.

Many are obsessed with the end times, I never understood that.

I went off script.

Apologies.
 

GodsGrace

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Again, no one is saying man does not have free will.

When talking salvation, man has no free will to com e to God.

That is why Pelagius was labeled a heretic.

As for Philemon 1:14. this has nothing to do with salvation.

Church history confirms Pelagius a heretic with his free will nonsense.

All of my sources in confirm this, the internet confirms this.



If you read what I posted in full, you would have seen the sources at the end of my post.
Come on E....you're an overseer!
It must say. Source: _________________

It has to be visible.
It means I could click on it...
go to the source and read it for myself.
This is the whole point!

Now, really, could you post something that states that Pelagius believed man had no free will?
Thanks.
 

ElectedbyHim

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Just a side note....
I'm speaking to a member over there.
He uses the terms YOU PEOPLE
FREE WILLERS
This is terrible.
We had decided not to allow it but I know it's easy to miss.
We shouldn't be dividing ourselves as Christians,,,but only as pertains to doctrine.
I guess it is all how you take "you people"

The Sicilians in my family say it all the time back in the day.

I found it humorous and use it today when talking to my sisters.

I get your point.
 
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ElectedbyHim

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Come on E....you're an overseer!
It must say. Source: _________________

It has to be visible.
It means I could click on it...
go to the source and read it for myself.
This is the whole point!

Now, really, could you post something that states that Pelagius believed man had no free will?
Thanks.
Oh. It comes from my Logos program.

I have so many books.

Most of my books you cannot find online.

They are very reliable sources of Biblical, historical and theological history.
 

GodsGrace

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Many people have no clue what they believe.

I believe in the Rapture and Premill.

That is not reformed teaching.

Although, I do no consider Eschatology important in my mind.

Many are obsessed with the end times, I never understood that.

I went off script.

Apologies.
I don't see rapture in the bible.
I see Jesus coming back one time only...at the end.
But I also am not interested in Eschatology at all.
Some are interested only in this and stay on those forums...
guess someone has to do it.

Now,,,,YOU....
what do you mean that you believe man has free will.
Why are you posting about Pelagius?
What do you think TOTAL DEPRAVITY means?
 

ElectedbyHim

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I don't see rapture in the bible.
I see Jesus coming back one time only...at the end.
But I also am not interested in Eschatology at all.
Some are interested only in this and stay on those forums...
guess someone has to do it.

Now,,,,YOU....
what do you mean that you believe an has free will.
Why are you posting about Pelagius?
What do you think TOTAL DEPRAVITY means?
Pelagius was labeled a heretic for his free will teachings.

Total depravity is a phrase or name that is used to summarize what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen man. It is the “T” in the acronym TULIP, which is commonly used to enumerate what are known as the five points of Calvinism or the doctrines of grace. Because the name “total depravity” can cause people to have wrong ideas about what is meant, some people prefer to use terms like “total inability,” “righteous incapability,” “radical corruption” or even “moral inability.” Yet what is important is not the name assigned to the doctrine but how accurately the doctrine summarizes what the Bible teaches about the spiritual condition of fallen man. No matter which name you use to refer to “total depravity,” the fact remains that when properly understood it is an accurate description of what the Bible does teach on this important subject.

While often misunderstood, the doctrine of total depravity is an acknowledgement that the Bible teaches that as a result of the fall of man (Genesis 3:6) every part of man—his mind, will, emotions and flesh—have been corrupted by sin. In other words, sin affects all areas of our being including who we are and what we do. It penetrates to the very core of our being so that everything is tainted by sin and “…all our righteous acts are like filthy rags” before a holy God (Isaiah 64:6). It acknowledges that the Bible teaches that we sin because we are sinners by nature. Or, as Jesus says, “So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.” (Matthew 7:17-18).

The total depravity of man is seen throughout the Bible. Man’s heart is “deceitful and desperately wicked” (Jeremiah 17:9). The Bible also teaches us that man is born dead in transgression and sin (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Ephesians 2:1-5). The Bible teaches that because unregenerate man is “dead in transgressions” (Ephesians 2:5), he is held captive by a love for sin (John 3:19; John 8:34) so that he will not seek God (Romans 3:10-11) because he loves the darkness (John 3:19) and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14). Therefore, men suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) and continue to willfully live in sin. Because they are totally depraved, this sinful lifestyle seems right to men (Proverbs 14:12) so they reject the gospel of Christ as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18) and their mind is “hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so” (Romans 8:7).

The Apostle Paul summarizes the total depravity of man in Romans 3:9-18. He begins this passage by saying that “both Jews and Greeks are all under sin.” Simply put, this means that man is under the control of sin or is controlled by his sin nature (his natural tendency to sin). The fact that unregenerate people are controlled by their selfish, sinful tendencies should not come as a surprise to any parent. What parent has to teach his or her child to be selfish, to covet what someone else has or to lie? Those actions come naturally from the child’s sin nature. Instead, the parent must devote much time to teaching the child the importance of telling the truth, of sharing instead of being selfish, of obeying instead of rebelling, etc.

Then in the rest of this passage Paul quotes extensively from the Old Testament in explaining how sinful man really is. For example, we see that 1—no one is without sin, 2—no one seeks after God, 3—there is no one who is good, 4—their speech is corrupted by sin, 5—their actions are corrupted by sin, and 6—above all, they have no fear of God. So, when one considers even these few verses, it becomes abundantly clear the Bible does indeed teach that fallen man is “totally depraved,” because sin affects all of him including his mind, will and emotions so that “there is none who does good, no not one” (Romans 3:12).

There is a common misconception regarding total depravity. Total depravity does not mean that man is as wicked or sinful as he could be, nor does it mean that man is without a conscience or any sense of right or wrong. Neither does it mean that man does not or cannot do things that seem to be good when viewed from a human perspective or measured against a human standard. It does not even mean that man cannot do things that seem to conform outwardly to the law of God. What the Bible does teach and what total depravity does recognize is that even the “good” things man does are tainted by sin because they are not done for the glory of God and out of faith in Him (Romans 14:23; Hebrews 11:6). While man looks upon the outward acts and judges them to be good, God looks upon not only the outward acts but also the inward motives that lie behind them, and because they proceed from a heart that is in rebellion against Him and they are not done for His glory, even these good deeds are like “filthy rags” in His sight. In other words, fallen man’s good deeds are motivated not by a desire to please God but by our own self-interest and are thus corrupted to the point where God declares that there is “no one who does good, no not one!”

Since Scripture is very clear that all of man is affected by sin and so much so that “no one seeks after God,” then how can anyone possibly become a Christian? The answer is that God must overcome man’s depravity in such a way that man is able to recognize his spiritual state and his hopeless condition apart from the grace of God. Man’s spiritually blind eyes must be open and the bondage of sin that renders him hopelessly enslaved must be broken so that he can respond in faith to the gospel message and the atoning work of Christ on the cross. Some Christians believe that God accomplishes this through some type of universal grace whereby God brings man to a condition where he has the ability to choose or reject Him. Others believe that for a man who is “dead in trespasses and sins” to be able to understand and respond to the gospel in faith, he must first be born again or regenerated by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3). It is only after God infuses spiritual life into a dead sinner that he can “see the kingdom of God.” Those that hold this view see this as being a sovereign act of God, whereby men are born again “not of the blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God” (John 1:12-13).

However, even when the doctrine of total depravity is properly understood, many people will reject the doctrine, but that fact should not surprise us, since the world generally thinks of man as being basically good. Therefore, the idea that man by nature is a depraved sinner runs contrary to most modern religious, psychological and philosophical views of the basic nature of man. But the fact is that the Bible does teach the depravity of the human heart, and the root cause of man’s problem is not the environment he is raised in but his wicked and selfish heart. Properly understood, the doctrine of total depravity will destroy the hopes of those who place their faith in any type of works-based system of salvation and will recognize that God’s sovereign grace is man’s only hope. While the doctrine of total depravity destroys man’s self-righteousness and any misconceptions about man’s ability to be saved through his own free will, it leaves one asking the same question the disciples asked of Jesus in Matthew 19:25-26: “Then who can be saved?” Of course the answer remains the same: “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible” (Matthew 19:25-26).

As the first of the five doctrines of what is called “Calvinism,” the doctrine of total depravity correctly focuses man’s attention on the rest of these “doctrines of grace” which declare the wondrous work of God in the salvation of sinners.
Gotquestions.org
 

GodsGrace

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Oh. It comes from my Logos program.

I have so many books.

Most of my books you cannot find online.

They are very reliable sources of Biblical, historical and theological history.
I studied church history.
Pelagius and Augustine were a part of it.

Here's what I learned:
THE MORE YOU LEARN
THE LESS YOU KNOW.
Bono
U2

The more I learn...the more I know how much there is to know...
the dumber I feel.

And with that:

1734128443772.jpeg
 
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