-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
- Status
ElectedbyHim
Member
I agree with this.
“I believe that every particle of dust that dances in the sunbeam does not move an atom more or less than God wishes – that every particle of spray that dashes against the steamboat has its orbit, as well as the sun in the heavens – that the chaff from the hand of the winnower is steered as the stars in their courses. The creeping of an aphid over the rosebud is as much fixed as the march of the devastating pestilence – the fall of . . . leaves from a poplar is as fully ordained as the tumbling of an avalanche.”
― Charles Spurgeon
Unregenerate man does not have free will to choose salvation. How can the dead make themselves alive?
Just like natural birth, we had no hand in it, the same goes for spiritual birth.
God sovereignly ordains the actions and ultimate destiny of all people
A. Nations
1. Habakkuk 1:5-6,12 "Look among the nations and watch; Be utterly astounded! For I will work a work in your days Which you would not believe, though it were told you. 6 For indeed I am raising up the Chaldeans, A bitter and hasty nation Which marches through the breadth of the earth, To possess dwelling places that are not theirs. 12 Are You not from everlasting, O LORD my God, my Holy One? We shall not die. O LORD, You have appointed them for judgment; O Rock, You have marked them for correction.
2. Joshua 11:19-20 There was not a city that made peace with the children of Israel, except the Hivites, the inhabitants of Gibeon. All the others they took in battle. 20 For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that He might utterly destroy them, and that they might receive no mercy, but that He might destroy them, as the LORD had commanded Moses.
3. God's distaste for nations taking credit for victory
a. Isaiah 37:21-29
B. Men and their actions
1. Proverbs 16:1 The preparations of the heart belong to man, But the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.
2. Proverbs 16:4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.
3. Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.
4. Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD.
5. Proverbs 19:21 There are many plans in a man's heart, Nevertheless the Lord's counsel; that will stand.
6. Proverbs 20:24 A man's steps are of the LORD; How then can a man understand his own way?
7. Job 12:6 The tents of robbers prosper, And those who provoke God are secure; In what God provides by His hand.
8. Isaiah 22:11 You also made a reservoir between the two walls For the water of the old pool. But you did not look to its Maker, Nor did you have respect for Him who fashioned it long ago.
9. Psalms 139:16-17 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them. 17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God! How great is the sum of them!
C. The ultimate destiny of the believer is ordained of God
1. Ephesians 1:4,5,9,11 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
2. Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
3. Ezekiel 34:11,12,15 'For thus says the Lord GOD: "Indeed I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out. 12 "As a shepherd seeks out his flock on the day he is among his scattered sheep, so will I seek out My sheep and deliver them from all the places where they were scattered on a cloudy and dark day. 15 "I will feed My flock, and I will make them lie down," says the Lord GOD.
D. The ultimate destiny of the unbeliever is ordained of God
1. Job 34:29 When He gives quietness, who then can make trouble? And when He hides His face, who then can see Him, Whether it is against a nation or a man alone?;
2. Matthew 11:21-27 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 "But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 "And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 "But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you." 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. 26 "Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 27 "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
I do not agree
Of course not. But God controls sin and uses it for His glory and His elect's pupose.
Romans 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
Psalm 135:6: “Whatever the Lord pleases, he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deep places.”
Proverbs 16:9: “The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.”
Job 1:21: “And he said, ‘Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked I shall return. The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.’”
Ephesians 1:11-12 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
Because they are spiritually dead.
God has to make them alive, to come to Him. Think of Lazarus in the tomb. That is a picture of salvation, No?
That is the work of Holy Spirit through faith(sola fide). Not through human works or merit.
Faith is needed to believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, it is a free gift from God to anyone that believes. The anyone, being Gods elect, whom He predestined before the foundations of the world.
John 3:16
Ritajanice
Born-Again
They can’t, yet some seem to think they can..
The Living testimony is needed..some don’t understand what that means.
Some even think their own faith gives birth to their spirit.
Faith is a supernatural gift from God..for without his gift of faith, you wouldn’t know that he even exists?
Last edited:
Okay, thank you for your views. Last question, how can you be 100% sure if you belong to God's elect? I remember the teaching of my youth, once you are going to die and then it's up to God where you end up, in heaven or hell. And you can't no for sure, ever. I am convinced I am born again, but if TULIP is true I have to live my live in fear in the hope I belong to God's elect. Is that a correct view? Like you I have searched the Scriptures for 50 years and I can't find passages how God elects, maybe you have examples?
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
The problem I see is you are overreaching!
No one here (but you) is talking about reformed theology, but merely what are called the five points or TULIP. True they are part of reformed theology but just a part.
As for Piper-- well Scripture does say that god holds all things by the Word of His Power. He set things in motion and they function according to His decrees
But let us be clear- in the matter of day to day living- god does not decree what clothes we wear, car we drive, food we eatr etc.etc, unless He wills on an occasion we eat certain things or wear certain clothes, but outside of those rare occasions, He has left that to teh volition of man in accord with the parameters of Scripture.
The free will TULIP speaks of has to do with an unsaved person being able of their fallen human nature to choose God, and as has beenshown several times, Scripture shows that to be impossible.
Your last sentence has to do with
TOTAL DEPRAVITY and
IRRESISTIBLE GRACE
You say man is unable to come to God on his own.
You say man cannot resist God's grace for salvation.
Post some verses that support the above.
And, as soon as you post one insult...
I will not be responding to you.
BTW,,,you wanted to know where in the bible it tells us to be nice to each other.
Try reading Paul's letters to Timothy.
This is a great point ProDeo.
It's a simple idea:
If I myself choose someone, I can know that I chose them...
no wondering, no having to confirm, no appealing to the spirit and so many other "ways, methods" of knowing I'm saved.
I choose God. Period. (and obey, of course).
If God chooses me....HOW will I ever be sure that I'm really chosen?
All the above ways that I listed have to be relied upon.
To say nothing of the fact that John Calvin himself stated that there is a "calling" which is TEMPORARY and which God can remove at any time.
This is a very disturbing belief/knowledge.
It means that security in the reformed method cannot be certain, but depends solely on the WHIM of God based, again, on nothing but His own good pleasure.
What is good about it...I've never understood.
Must be His sovereignty....all is blamed on His sovereignty...
as if only the reformed believe in God's sovereignty.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well you were given some bad teaching. The apostle John wrote "These things are written that you may know you have eternal life".
If you trust Jesus death and resurrection as the full payment for your sin debt, then you are saved.
Doubts and fears can and will arise, but these are attacks from your own nature and from the devil. Both would love for you to doubt your salvation, to keep you from growing and glorifying god with you r life.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Romans 8:5-8
King James Version
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
1 Corinthians 2:14
King James Version
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.Romans 3:10-12
King James Version
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Isaiah 1:6
From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.
Romans 7:18
King James Version
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
As for coming to god?
John 6:
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
who hears and follow Jesus?
John 10:
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
This is scripture without commentary, reinterpretation or allegorizing.
Or maybe your logic is wrong? Consider that if the Apostle John were into TULIP he would never have said that, as he can't read the mind of God if the people he wrote to belong to God's elect, so he wasn't into TULIP.
Amen to that and glory to God.
ElectedbyHim
Member
About Pelagius and Free Will.
Pelagius Heresy Council of Ephesus
Introduction to Pelagius Heresy: The Pelagius heresy was a theological doctrine that emphasized the role of human free will in achieving salvation. This doctrine was condemned as heresy at the Council of Ephesus in 431.- Pelagius and His Doctrine: Pelagius, a Christian ascetic, argued that humans have the ability to choose good or evil without the need for divine grace. He believed that humans can achieve salvation through their own efforts and free will.
- Condemnation at the Council of Ephesus: The Council of Ephesus, a gathering of Christian bishops, condemned Pelagius’ doctrine as heresy. The council affirmed the importance of divine grace in achieving salvation and rejected the idea that humans can save themselves through their own efforts.
Bladerunner
Member
Do you believe the Jesus is that Son of GOD? Do you believe the Bible (all of it), do you strive to be obedient and follow the Lord's commands....Have you removed yourself from the world? these are just a few questions that need to be answered. Yes one can know if you are an elect of GOD...Yet, it is not to be bragged about...which is why for all of those that are elect, they preach/teach the Bible but very seldom (if any) brag about their election.
Our discussion was regarding total depravity (inability to seek God) and irrisestible grace (God alone chooses...by force).
You posted Romans 8:5-8 I'll post it again for your convenience:
Your post from the KJV
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Please show WHERE in the above verses it states that man is unable to seek God.
and
WHERE in the above verses does it state that God will save us whether we want to be saved or not.
TOTAL DEPRAVITY
IRRISESTIBLE GRACE
is nowhere to be found in scripture.
Insead, here is what scripture states:
MAN IS ABLE TO SEEK GOD:
2 Chronicles 15:1-2
The Spirit of God came upon Azariah the son of Oded, and he went out to meet Asa and said to him, “Hear me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin: The Lord is with you while you are with him. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will forsake you.
Notice that every action above is by the man first:
The Lord is with Asa,,,as long as Asa is with the Lord.
If Asa seeks the Lord,,,He will be found.
Hebrews 11:6
.....for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that He rewards those who seek him.
Jeremiah 29:13
You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.
There are many more.
Man is ABLE TO SEEK GOD.
Man is not so depraved, as calvinism teaches,,,that he is unable to seek God.
All Christians agree that an unborn again person does not UNDERSTAND the things of God....
an atheist cannot accept what we can through the Holy Spirit.
BUT
It does NOT state that man is unable to seek God
or that man cannot resist God's grace.
God's grace CAN be resisted:
Matthew 23:37
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!
Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,
Jesus cried because Jerusalem WAS NOT WILLING.
God tells Israel to CHOOSE LIFE.
God gives His grace, but He does NOT force us to accept it, as calvinism teaches.
Romans 3:12 is referring to an OT statement...
specifically for a select group of people.
See Psalm 14:1-3 God admonishes THE FOOL who has said in his heart THERE IS NO GOD.
These fools are corrupt, they commit abominable deeds....
It is addressing the workers of wickedness.
And, in any case, one verse does not doctrine make.
There are TENS of verses that state man is able to seek God.
The bible contains no conflict.
Every Christian believes the above.
The verses you're looking for RN....do not exist because Calvinism is not biblical.
Amen. All who respond to God are given over to Jesus for their salvation.
Jesus is the Savior.
See John 12:32
EVERYONE has access to God. Not all listen.
Romans 1:19-20
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
God's power has been evident from the beginning through His creation.
NO ONE will be excused due to ignorance.
Thanks for helping me.....
In John 10:25 Jesus clearly states that HE SAID SOMETHING....
BUT
The hearers DID NOT BELIEVE HIM...
Why?
Because God's grace is RESISTIBLE.....unlike what calvinism teaches.
Man is NOT FORCED to accept God's teachings.
Nice. But it doesn't state WHY they are not of His sheep.
Every Christian believes that this is true.
We are to obey/follow Jesus' teachings.
Unfortunately RN....what you post is not well understood by either you or every other reformed/calvinist believer.
Please explain what I posted to you, as I have done with YOUR verses.
Why are you posting the above as if it's not believed by all Christians?
Pelagius was in debate with Augustine about grace.
Pelagius believed man had free will.
Pelagius did not believe man NEEDED GRACE to avoid sin.
THIS WAS THE HERESY....
NOT Pelagius and Free Will as you've titled your post.
This is NOT what the council of Ephesus was concerned with.
I believe you have your councils mixed up. Ephesus was about the divinity of Jesus.
The early church ALWAYS believed man had free will...except for the gnostics which were removed from the church.
What Pelagius taught/believed is that MAN DOES NOT NEED GRACE TO LIVE WITHOUT SIN.
EVERY Christian believes man needs God's grace TO LIVE WITHOUT SIN.
Again, this was the heresy for which Pelagius was ex-communicated.
This is from Brittanica. As you can see, Pelagius definetly believed in free will:
particularly Pelagius’s insistence on humankind’s basically good moral nature and on individual responsibility for voluntarily choosing Christian asceticism for spiritual advancement.
source: Original sin | Definition, Consequences, & Facts | Britannica
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well I am just reporting what JOhn said. He said he wrote those things os people would know they had eternal life.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Verse 8- If seeking God is something that pleases Him, unsaved man cannot do it!
In the above verse? Nowhere! In other passages of Scripture- yes, God changes hearts as He wills.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
In those exacts words? NO! but the concept as spelled out in Tulip, yes.
Total depravity does not mean a person is as bad as they can be. It means an unsaved person is as bad off as they can be.
Irresistible grace- Jesus clearly showed that in JOhn 6.
So you are saying mans will in soteriology is sovereign over Gods?
These are people who already belonged to the Lord. Now we have a new structure
Hebrews 13:5
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Do not forget that the Mosaic Covenant was a different dispensation with different rules.
I believe teh vewrses above 100% but they must be kept within the other verses that no one can come to Jesus unless the Father drags them. If you think that is not seeking- please elucidate.
It is not Calvin but God who teaches man will not seek god:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
It was not Calcin that brought it up- but God. Calvin merely agreed with Him.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
But these verses do not speak to salvation, and that is what the I in tulip addresses solely. A believer can resist the will of God and suffer the consequences of sin for their resisitance, but they are still saved.
Well as I am tqalking TULIP, I cannot answer to your sweeping condmenation. Calvinism is a whole theological system of which Tuli[p is a part. If you wish to address Calvinsim, seek others than me.
But I am willing to bet that you are at least what would be called a 3 point Calvinist on the TULIP sacxle.
Please show some of them then. I am not talking about believers seeking God and choosing life, but unbelievers in and of their fallen human nature can freely seek god of that nature that 1 Cor. 2 says they cannot understand.
And sorry, but Romans 3 is both about history and the present. Man hqasn't changed nor has the heart of the unsaved changed.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
So you are saying these verses have no application to modern man at all.
I wish you would have finished the quote from Romans.
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Do you believe this is no longer valid anymore?
Or how about this verse:
1 thess. 2:
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
God will send a delusion that makes people believe a lie! Unless you believe He won't do this in the future.
Sorry but it is not help to you!
If this was the only verse describing free will v. predestinatio0n, you would win. But it is not. NOr is it the hep you seek. It is a simple statement without addressing the why they won't believe. The very next verse says why:
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Now as for people who get saved:
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
We are already sheep in Gods eyes. Just like paul said we were selected before the foundation of the world.
well the bible elsewhere clearly does- the most simplest answer is in Eph.2. because they are objects wrath!
We are His sheep because He chose us, not because we chose Him. E#ven though it is about discipleship, the priniciple still applies:
John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
but as tot eh WHY? All I can answer is we are HIs sheep and those lost are not His sheep. We were not goates that turned into sheep nor weeds that Jesus turned into wheat!
Well for the about 12th time, I am neither reformed nor a Calvinist. Just a five pointer! Anything beying that is a lie.
I have explained- but I will not get into philosophical eisegesis as you do.
- Status
Similar threads
