Freed : From Calvinism and HyperCalvinism )Tulip<>5 Pont.

[Ronald Nolette]

Just thought I'd give you some food for thought.
However, I won't be responding.
I find it difficult to speak to you.

So be it.

I have never been angry or vindictive with you. I have been very blunt and direct! When I see someone adopting evasive ways, I will call them on it. I know this is very offensive to some, but I prefer to be blunt and straightforward and not beat around the bush. Wates too much time. And being 70+, time is rather precious to me.

 

[GodsGrace]

So be it.

I have never been angry or vindictive with you. I have been very blunt and direct! When I see someone adopting evasive ways, I will call them on it. I know this is very offensive to some, but I prefer to be blunt and straightforward and not beat around the bush. Wates too much time. And being 70+, time is rather precious to me.

I know you're not angry with me....you treat everyone the same....not too good.
And, yes, it is offensive and I don't come here to be offended.
Plus, it's not Christianly.
Plus, the older we get, the wiser we should be.

 

[ProDeo]

But Scripture does not say it is by free will.

There is no free will in TULIP?

Rom. 8:8 1 cor. 2:14 and Eph 2:1-5 and Romans 6:16-18 as well as Romans 3 show not only do we not seek God, we do not wish to and are enslaved to sin and by nature objects of wrath.

If that is true, I would regret I have put 3 children on this earth as objects of God's wrath? While God said, Be fruitful and multiply, seriously?

Jer. 1:5: 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

I am aware of all those passages in Scripture you posted but I see election and predestination in coherence with for instance - the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world - or - Before Abraham was I. The Lord God is the only One who can look into the future, He knows every outcome on beforehand, even before we are born He knows where we will end. It only needs to happen. And here we are, on His timeline.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

I don't read much anymore.
If you read one of the Confession, it's pretty much the same.
Try the Westminster Confession. You could find it online in both the original and modern language.
The Institutes....try reading Book 3. The more you read, the worse it gets.
It's a mystery to me how anyone could worship such a God.

I have read many of the Confessions and agree with the Westminster.

What exactly do you find disturbing?

The doctrine of God's sovereignty is most hated doctrine in Christianity beside the doctrine of total depravity.


No doctrine in the whole Word of God has more excited the hatred of mankind than the truth of the absolute sovereignty of God. The fact that ‘the Lord reigneth’ is indisputable, and it is this fact that arouses the utmost opposition in the unrenewed human heart.” - C.H. Spurgeon

“There is no attribute more comforting to His children than the doctrine of Divine Sovereignty. Under the most adverse circumstances, in the most severe troubles, they believe that Sovereignty hath ordained their afflictions, that Sovereignty overrules them, and that Sovereignty will sanctify them all.” - R.C. Sproul

 

[Mjh29]

I have read many of the Confessions and agree with the Westminster.

What exactly do you find disturbing?

The doctrine of God's sovereignty is most hated doctrine in Christianity beside the doctrine of total depravity.


No doctrine in the whole Word of God has more excited the hatred of mankind than the truth of the absolute sovereignty of God. The fact that ‘the Lord reigneth’ is indisputable, and it is this fact that arouses the utmost opposition in the unrenewed human heart.” - C.H. Spurgeon

“There is no attribute more comforting to His children than the doctrine of Divine Sovereignty. Under the most adverse circumstances, in the most severe troubles, they believe that Sovereignty hath ordained their afflictions, that Sovereignty overrules them, and that Sovereignty will sanctify them all.” - R.C. Sproul

... Even chapter 28?

 

[Mjh29]

Hello again friend!

If I may - I would very much like to go through your quotes from Calvin as well as the Confession, and explain how I read them and interpret what he is saying.

---

The Christian, then, being most fully persuaded, that all things come to pass by the dispensation of God

I am indeed most fully persuaded that all things come to pass by the dispensation of God. The question would be HOW He does this. How does God control all things? Through either the giving or withholding of His Grace, God controls all things that come to pass

and that nothing happens fortuitously,

If God is all powerful, and either good or evil happen due to His giving/withholding of Grace, then there certainly can be no fortune. God either gave His grace or withheld it; either way, the situation was in His control.

at the same time paying due regard to inferior causes in their own place.

God withholding His Grace and allowing evil is not the same thing as Him actively creating evil. So, at the same time that He is the cause of the outcome, he is not the source of the evil that takes place when He withholds His Grace from man.

Next, he will have no doubt that a special providence is awake for his preservation, and will not suffer anything to happen that will not turn to his good and safety.

No matter if evil be allowed to take place, or if God dispenses his Grace in a situation, the ultimate chief end of all history, and of everything that happens in history is the glory of God. God is so powerful, that what men mean for evil, He can and will use for good, and for his Glory. There is nothing that God cannot use to further His kingdom. Additionally, what men mean for evil against God's people, He will use for our edification and our sanctification as we are conformed into the image of Christ.

But as its business is first with men and then with the other creatures, he will feel 189assured that the providence of God reigns over both.

God's Grace sustains all living creatures, not just man; even the breath we breathe is only because God gives it to us graciously, moment by moment. However, God's grace is primarily concerned with mankind first, then with other creatures that he created in order of importance.

In regard to men, good as well as bad, he will acknowledge that their counsels, wishes, aims and faculties are so under his hand, that he has full power to turn them in whatever direction, and constrain them as often as he pleases.

How in control of man is God? Or, perhaps better stated - How powerful is God's Grace? Powerful enough to change the hearts of even the most wicked of men. So, while we are indeed free in the sense that our decisions are our own, sin taints the hearts of all men without God's grace, to the point where our desires are for "only evil continually" - or rather, our desires are against God, and against his Kingdom. Still, God's grace is so powerful, that no matter what we do, God's Grace can and will direct our lives; either by being given or withheld. The sinner still chooses sin; but that is because God has withheld his Grace and allowed him to do so. Just as the saint, through the regenerating power of God, chooses to do good; but only because God has given his Grace. In this sense, God truly doe constrain us as often as he pleases; by withholding his Grace, and allowing men to do what men are naturally inclined to do - sin.

---

I am working my way through that chapter of the Confession slowly, and will get back to you as soon as I can!

Have a Blessed Day!

 

[Bladerunner]

This is what is meant by biblical....
It means that a CONCEPT or THEOLOGICAL DOCTRINE is aligned with biblical teachings.

It DOES NOT mean that a verse is found in the bible.
EVERY verse if found in the bible.

The problem is that some verses could be misunderstood, taken out of context, or simply interpreted they way the theologians of any particular denomination WISHES to interpret them in order to inforce their own teachings.

@Mjh29 gave an excellent explanation of Isaiah 45 even though he does consider himself to be reformed.
This is called intellectual honesty.

One of the reasons I find reformed/Calvinist theology to be incorrect is simply because it created many conflicts within scripture and conflicts cannot exist in scripture...or, at the least, they need to be explained away somehow.

So you posted
Isaiah 45:7
7The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating calamity;
I am the LORD who does all these.

Now, here's
1 John 1:5
5This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.

and

1 John 4:8
8The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.


You probably know about Divine Simplicity.
So if John's statement are correct...
HOW could the Isaiah statement be correct?

How would YOU reconcile this conflict?

Does God create evil/calamity?
But John says there is NO DARKNESS in God...
John says GOD IS LOVE.

Don't think Isaiah was reformed.... Thus the question can GOD create light and evil, darkness at the same time or does He have to conform to His words in the NT in John Book....


When Gods words from Isaiah and John are correct if we believe that GOD is sovereign over all things. After all it has been said that Darkness is simply the absence of Light....How does He reconcile the differences......I am so low to GOD that I cannot even think that high. How He reconciles all these events and Words I cannot say, but I do know that I believe every word in the Bible is His words and not man's/

 

[ElectedbyHim]

... Even chapter 28?

In the Westminster?

Infant batism?

I will have to revisit.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

In the Westminster?

Infant batism?

I will have to revisit.

Although I hold to the treachings of the Reformed, I do not believe in the reformed doctrine of batism or their eschatology.

I always said I am not reformed or calvinist.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Mjh29]

Although I hold to the treachings of the Reformed, I do not believe in the reformed doctrine of batism or their eschatology.

I always said I am not reformed or calvinist.

Grace and peace to you.

Quite alright! Not everyone can agree on everything!

you as well!

 

[GodsGrace]

I have read many of the Confessions and agree with the Westminster.

The Confessions are all basically the same...but if you agree with the Westminster...OK.

What exactly do you find disturbing?

I've told you many times what I find disturbing about the reformed faith, also referred to as Calvinism.
I find all of the 5 points disturbing.

They're predicated on the fact that:
1. Man is born depraved. Something all Christians agree with because it just means morally corrupted.
2. Man has no free will....everything is determined by God.

As to 1,,,,man is born morally corrupt. Nothing he does can be pleasing to God. This is why doing good works will not be sufficient to save anyone.
However....reformed theology takes this a step further and teaches that man is so depraved that he is unable to seek after God.
There are TENS of verses in the bible that exhort us to seek after God.

As to 2....since man cannot seek after God, it makes God be responsible for deciding who will be saved and who won't BECAUSE man cannot seek after Him.
This idea is nowhere to be found in scripture. The opposite is true....we are to seek God.

If you want to go down this road again, I'm willing.

So Calvinism ends up making robots out of man.
It makes man be some kind of pet that God put in a cage for His own good pleasure.

We are not robots, we are not pets.
God wants creatures that can freely love Him back.
Love must be free . . . . or it's not love.

Is this enough?
I have more.

Preservation of the Saints.
or, as some call it OSAS.

Why do you suppose there are so many verses in the NT warning us to keep the faith?
Because if we don't keep the faith, of our own free will,
we will NOT HAVE FAITH.

No Faith = No Salvatiion

And, last but certainly not least...
Calvinism changes the character of God.
It takes away God's
LOVE
MERCY
JUSTICE

I'm tired of posting verses about God' love, mercy and justice,,,but I can if you think it's really necessary.

I did include JUSTICE in the list so please don't tell me we all deserve hell.
How does God arbitrarily choosing those for heaven show any justice??

The doctrine of God's sovereignty is most hated doctrine in Christianity beside the doctrine of total depravity.

Elected....no christian hates the doctrine of sovereignty....EVERY Christian believes God is sovereign.
See...no matter how many times I say this to you....you do not hear it.
GOD IS SOVEREIGN.
Nothing happens unless God wants it to.
Does this mean He decrees everything?
NO.
Does this mean man has no free will?
NO.

Every Christian knows that man is depraved.
Does this mean he is unable to seek God?
NO.
Does this mean God must choose who to save?
NO.

The reason every other Christian denomination pushes back on how you understand sovereignty and depravity
is because of HOW YOU INTERPRET IT.

It does not align with what the NT teaches.
It does not align with the character of God.

No doctrine in the whole Word of God has more excited the hatred of mankind than the truth of the absolute sovereignty of God. The fact that ‘the Lord reigneth’ is indisputable, and it is this fact that arouses the utmost opposition in the unrenewed human heart.” - C.H. Spurgeon

“There is no attribute more comforting to His children than the doctrine of Divine Sovereignty. Under the most adverse circumstances, in the most severe troubles, they believe that Sovereignty hath ordained their afflictions, that Sovereignty overrules them, and that Sovereignty will sanctify them all.” - R.C. Sproul

Spurgeon and Sproul
Yeah. What a way to go.
Use reformed theologians to prove a reformed doctrine.

Poor Sproul went kicking and screaming into the reformed faith.
He had to be convinced of it because it made no sense to him.
The Soul's Quest for God
Page 13 if I remember correctly.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hello again friend!

If I may - I would very much like to go through your quotes from Calvin as well as the Confession, and explain how I read them and interpret what he is saying.

---

I am indeed most fully persuaded that all things come to pass by the dispensation of God. The question would be HOW He does this. How does God control all things? Through either the giving or withholding of His Grace, God controls all things that come to pass

What does the dispensation of God mean?
I'm going to use this meaning:
The Greek word (oikonomia) so translated signifies primarily, a stewardship, the management or disposition of affairs entrusted to one.

To be the steward of something means to take care of something.
To manage means to make it so that a certain end is attained.
Entrusted is to God, of course.

I agree that God takes care of His creation, both us and nature and all the universe....
just as He meant for Adam to take care of the Garden.

I agree that God will manage all events so that a particular end will be achieved.

Yes, indeed....HOW does He do this?

My belief, and I dare say that of all denominations (except for the reformed) is that God set into motion a particular universe with laws to govern it. Except in rare cases (such as Pharaoh and Mary) man MUST adhere to those laws....IOW,,,if I smoke, I might get lung cancer one day. If the winds blow hard, some buildings will be damaged, etc. This is why we have miracles....they do NOT follow the natural law.

In all this...God has a definite plan.
He will cause it to come about.....how is not very clear....
the reformed believe it is clear - God just prestinates everything.
Other denominations, instead, believe man has free will - how to reconcile?

I see it like this:
There's a football game.
Every man on the team is free to act as he wishes and make the best plays he can.
But, somehow, God would determine which team wins, and things will so happen that His will must come to pass.

Man has free will.
God is sovereign over all.

If God is all powerful, and either good or evil happen due to His giving/withholding of Grace, then there certainly can be no fortune. God either gave His grace or withheld it; either way, the situation was in His control.

I think you mean luck by the word FORTUNE.
Christians do believe that nothing occurs purely by chance.
They believe that God causes all good and not luck.

When you say that the situation is in God's control....I believe you mean it in a literal sense.
Of course God is in control - but I wouldn't go so far as to say that God DECREES everything, which is what Calvinism teaches.

God withholding His Grace and allowing evil is not the same thing as Him actively creating evil. So, at the same time that He is the cause of the outcome, he is not the source of the evil that takes place when He withholds His Grace from man.

Agreed.
God did not create evil.
Allowing evil is different from creating evil.
Also, yes, God can use evil for good.
Joseph's brothers meant it for evil, but God used it for good.

But, again, you say that God is THE SOURCE OF THE OUTCOME....
do you mean EVERY outcome?
Thus denying man's free will.
Or just some outcomes in order to fulfill His will?

No matter if evil be allowed to take place, or if God dispenses his Grace in a situation, the ultimate chief end of all history, and of everything that happens in history is the glory of God.

This I'll have to disagree with.
Some things cannot be for the glory of God.
Concentration camps.
Some persons there can glorify God with their behavior/sacrifice...
but I wouldn't say a concentration camp brings glory to God.

God is so powerful, that what men mean for evil, He can and will use for good, and for his Glory. There is nothing that God cannot use to further His kingdom. Additionally, what men mean for evil against God's people, He will use for our edification and our sanctification as we are conformed into the image of Christ.

Agreed. Replied to above.

God's Grace sustains all living creatures, not just man; even the breath we breathe is only because God gives it to us graciously, moment by moment. However, God's grace is primarily concerned with mankind first, then with other creatures that he created in order of importance.

Every Christian believes this.
God upholds everything.

How in control of man is God? Or, perhaps better stated - How powerful is God's Grace?

I don't equate God's power with how much in control He is, in the sense that EVERY outcome is decreed by Him.
This is the problem with the sovereignty question.
Every Christian believes God is sovereign....
Calvinism takes it a step further and believes that if God is not in complete control of every movement, then He must not be sovereign.
Again,,,this is due to the fact that the reformed do not believe man has free will.

Man can have free will and God can still be sovereign and still, ultimately, control any outcome.

Powerful enough to change the hearts of even the most wicked of men. So, while we are indeed free in the sense that our decisions are our own, sin taints the hearts of all men without God's grace,

But the reformed to NOT believe that our decisions are our own.
Chapter 5 of the WCF states that God uses secondary causes.
There's no such thing as a secondary cause....
this is because of the eternal regression concept....
every action has a previous cause,
which has a previous cause.
etc.
Eventually we have to get to the primary cause and,
voila',,,,there is God.

to the point where our desires are for "only evil continually" - or rather, our desires are against God, and against his Kingdom. Still, God's grace is so powerful, that no matter what we do, God's Grace can and will direct our lives; either by being given or withheld. The sinner still chooses sin; but that is because God has withheld his Grace and allowed him to do so. Just as the saint, through the regenerating power of God, chooses to do good; but only because God has given his Grace. In this sense, God truly doe constrain us as often as he pleases; by withholding his Grace, and allowing men to do what men are naturally inclined to do - sin.

The above would require discussion on free will.
What you've stated does not support that man has free will....which, of course, calvinism teaches that man does NOT have free will.

Would you care to get into this or do you prefer to just have a back and forth on our belief system?

For instance:
What does Philemon 1:14 mean to you?

 

[GodsGrace]

Don't think Isaiah was reformed.... Thus the question can GOD create light and evil, darkness at the same time or does He have to conform to His words in the NT in John Book....

I guess God could do whatever He wants to do.
But I also think God is not a liar.
John was with Jesus over 3 years. They must have spoken about many things during that
time that are not even in the gospels...in fact I do believe John said this. John 21:25

So,,, if John says that in God there is no darkness, I have to believe that this is something John learned from Jesus.
If Jesus is God then I have to believe that Jesus taught John correct information.

When Gods words from Isaiah and John are correct if we believe that GOD is sovereign over all things. After all it has been said that Darkness is simply the absence of Light....How does He reconcile the differences......I am so low to GOD that I cannot even think that high. How He reconciles all these events and Words I cannot say, but I do know that I believe every word in the Bible is His words and not man's/

How about this for reconciliation?
God revealed Himself to mankind a little at a time and as much as we could understand.
The OT was written 4 thousand years ago....I think we should pay attention to what Jesus taught since HE
was the ultimate revelation.

If the bible is replete with statements denoting how good God is and that everything good comes from God....James 1:17
I think we should pay attention to those statements and not one that was written to make man understand that God is Almighty and who believed that God created everything...even evil. Today this is not accepted, except by hyper-calvinists (or maybe all calvinists) because it would mean that God is a sinner and I think we might agree that God cannot sin.

As to the absence of light being dark....yes, many believe this.
But it doesn't explain a hurricane.
Is a hurricane the absence of a pleasant breeze?

According to Romans 8, even nature is waiting for its redemption...
this is because even nature is riddled with evil.

 

[Mjh29]

The above would require discussion on free will.

I feel like, in order for our current discussion to make progress, we would indeed need to have a discussion on Free Will, yes! I would be more than happy to discuss this! Was there something particular you wanted to know about what I believe about Free Will, or would you rather I just explain it as I understand it?

 

[GodsGrace]

I feel like, in order for our current discussion to make progress, we would indeed need to have a discussion on Free Will, yes! I would be more than happy to discuss this! Was there something particular you wanted to know about what I believe about Free Will, or would you rather I just explain it as I understand it?

Just checking in before dinner and won't be back till later.
Yes. A statement would be nice.
Calvinists really don't believe in free will, so hearing your understanding of it would be good.
You seem to be a "soft" calvinist.

When did man lose his free will?
Did he ever even have it in the Garden?
Why would having free will diminish God's sovereignty?

I believe that reformed theology is predicated on 2 concepts:
1. Total depravity.
2. Absence of free will.

 

[Mjh29]

Just checking in before dinner and won't be back till later.
Yes. A statement would be nice.
Calvinists really don't believe in free will, so hearing your understanding of it would be good.
You seem to be a "soft" calvinist.

When did man lose his free will?
Did he ever even have it in the Garden?
Why would having free will diminish God's sovereignty?

I believe that reformed theology is predicated on 2 concepts:
1. Total depravity.
2. Absence of free will.

I am also getting lunch lol I will reply after!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

There is no free will in TULIP?

If that is true, I would regret I have put 3 children on this earth as objects of God's wrath? While God said, Be fruitful and multiply, seriously?

I am aware of all those passages in Scripture you posted but I see election and predestination in coherence with for instance - the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world - or - Before Abraham was I. The Lord God is the only One who can look into the future, He knows every outcome on beforehand, even before we are born He knows where we will end. It only needs to happen. And here we are, on His timeline.

In the world of the unsaved, there is no free will to choose God in the fallen nature. TULIP merely codifies and systematize that biblical point.

Every human was born an object of wrath as Eph.2 explicitly says. All must be born again or receive the result of their fallen human nature- the lake of fire.

I understand how you feel about election and predestination. But those are not the difinitions of the Words the original inspired writers used. There is no "looking into the future to see who will or will not accept the gospel." If there was, after 50 years of studying Scripture, I would have run across it and believe it.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I know you're not angry with me....you treat everyone the same....not too good.
And, yes, it is offensive and I don't come here to be offended.
Plus, it's not Christianly.
Plus, the older we get, the wiser we should be.

Can you please show me from Scripture where being blunt and direct is not Christian? Seems to me Jesus was the master of bluntness and directness. He told Peter to get behind him satan!

So you prefer the softer touch and have people in stead of getting to the heart of the matter, merely nibble around the edges?

Is that your preference in a surgeon when going after cancer? Just kind of nibble around the edges? Because going straight for it will require cutting and removing and radiation and chemo in order to stop the spread of a horrid disease. Should we be different when we believe and see one ensconced what we are convinced is false doctrine ( a form of spiritual cancer)?

 

[ElectedbyHim]

The Confessions are all basically the same...but if you agree with the Westminster...OK.


I've told you many times what I find disturbing about the reformed faith, also referred to as Calvinism.
I find all of the 5 points disturbing.

They're predicated on the fact that:
1. Man is born depraved. Something all Christians agree with because it just means morally corrupted.
2. Man has no free will....everything is determined by God.

As to 1,,,,man is born morally corrupt. Nothing he does can be pleasing to God. This is why doing good works will not be sufficient to save anyone.
However....reformed theology takes this a step further and teaches that man is so depraved that he is unable to seek after God.
There are TENS of verses in the bible that exhort us to seek after God.

As to 2....since man cannot seek after God, it makes God be responsible for deciding who will be saved and who won't BECAUSE man cannot seek after Him.
This idea is nowhere to be found in scripture. The opposite is true....we are to seek God.

If you want to go down this road again, I'm willing.

So Calvinism ends up making robots out of man.
It makes man be some kind of pet that God put in a cage for His own good pleasure.

We are not robots, we are not pets.
God wants creatures that can freely love Him back.
Love must be free . . . . or it's not love.

Is this enough?
I have more.

Preservation of the Saints.
or, as some call it OSAS.

Why do you suppose there are so many verses in the NT warning us to keep the faith?
Because if we don't keep the faith, of our own free will,
we will NOT HAVE FAITH.

No Faith = No Salvatiion

And, last but certainly not least...
Calvinism changes the character of God.
It takes away God's
LOVE
MERCY
JUSTICE

I'm tired of posting verses about God' love, mercy and justice,,,but I can if you think it's really necessary.

I did include JUSTICE in the list so please don't tell me we all deserve hell.
How does God arbitrarily choosing those for heaven show any justice??


Elected....no christian hates the doctrine of sovereignty....EVERY Christian believes God is sovereign.
See...no matter how many times I say this to you....you do not hear it.
GOD IS SOVEREIGN.
Nothing happens unless God wants it to.
Does this mean He decrees everything?
NO.
Does this mean man has no free will?
NO.

Every Christian knows that man is depraved.
Does this mean he is unable to seek God?
NO.
Does this mean God must choose who to save?
NO.

The reason every other Christian denomination pushes back on how you understand sovereignty and depravity
is because of HOW YOU INTERPRET IT.

It does not align with what the NT teaches.
It does not align with the character of God.


Spurgeon and Sproul
Yeah. What a way to go.
Use reformed theologians to prove a reformed doctrine.

Poor Sproul went kicking and screaming into the reformed faith.
He had to be convinced of it because it made no sense to him.
The Soul's Quest for God
Page 13 if I remember correctly.

It aligns with the entire Bible.

The reason many denominations hate the 5 -points is because all 5-point s give glory to God and none to humans.

Human pride hates that God is Sovereign over them.

The 5-points are all based on many Scriptures in the Bible. How does one not see this?

Take Total Depravity, may professed Christians believe that man is born basically good, but the Bible no where says that.

How does one come to that conclusion?

 

[GodsGrace]

It aligns with the entire Bible.

How is that possible?
Reformed theology teaches that everything is decreed by God...nothing happens unless God decreed it to happen.
Piper says that even the molecules in the air are governed by the will of God.

Now how does that square with the OT?
Throughout the OT God admonishes His people because they do not obey Him.
Isaiah 1:2 God says that His children rebel against Him.
They make sacrifices to idols....in the desert the crafted the golden calf.
Jeremiah 44:4-6 God sent His servants but they listened not to warnings and did evil. God was angry.

Why would God be angry if the Israelites were just doing what He decreed?

God's will is many times rejected by man's doings.
This shows:

1. Man has free will to do as he wishes.
2. God does not decree everything man does or He would not get angered.
3. Man's disobedience does NOT diminish God's sovereignty....it only shows that God IS sovereign and does not fear giving
man free will.

The reason many denominations hate the 5 -points is because all 5-point s give glory to God and none to humans.

E....everything good gives glory to God.
Denominations don't hate reformed theology....they believe it's INCORRECT theology.

This is not a match between God and man....
man works WITH God to become saved and to do God's will - with the help of the Holy Spirit,
but also with man's free will.

Man sins and must confess his sins as John states.1 John 1 and 2

So do you believe that God decrees that man should sin?
If YES...then God is immoral while teaching US to be moral.

If NO...then God is holding us responsible for what HE makes us do!
Is this just??

Human pride hates that God is Sovereign over them.

I don't know where you hear this stuff.

The 5-points are all based on many Scriptures in the Bible. How does one not see this?

Because it's not so.
Show me a verse or two that states that man is so depraved as to be unable to seek God.

One states that there are none that seeketh after God...
referring to Isaish, and we've been through that one before.

And if God decrees everything...HOW COME there are none that seek after Hiim?
It's illogical E.

Find a different verse that states that man cannot seek God.

Take Total Depravity, may professed Christians believe that man is born basically good, but the Bible no where says that.

How does one come to that conclusion?

WHO comes to that conclusion?
Which denomination do YOU know that teaches that man is born good??
I don't know of any.
Every denomination I know states that man is born sinful and lost.
Man is in need of salvation.
The question is this:
HOW does man become saved?


(you might be talking about the age of reason---but that's a totally different topic which we could discuss).