Filthy Rags versus Fine Linen Bright and Clean

[Wynona]

When actual sin occurs in the heart, the Law detects it, but didn't cause it.
However, not all breaking of the Law occurs as a result of sinful desires, which it condemns-the Priests break the Sabbath while working in the Temple and are not guilty.
The Law can detect and condemn sinful desire, but not all breaking of the Law is a result of sinful desire.
Righteousness is the same way--God's righteousness is revealed apart from the Law, and when there's righteousness occurring in our hearts, the Law detects it, but it didn't cause it.

1 Ti 1:9

Let me try again.

1 John 3:4-5
King James Version
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

I see this as talking more than the Law of Moses.

 

[GracePeace]

Let me try again.

1 John 3:4-5
King James Version
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

I see this as talking more than the Law of Moses.

Just wanted to point out that we're not under Law

 

[Wynona]

Just wanted to point out that we're not under Law

Oh.

I guess I just see sin as a specific action that we usually know we do.

I feel like a lot of people see it as a default state of being, Christian or not.

 

[GracePeace]

Oh.

I guess I just see sin as a specific action that we usually know we do.

I feel like a lot of people see it as a default state of being, Christian or not.

OK

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I think, if we make our decisions with the clear conscience from faith, were walking in the light and the blood of Jesus does cleanse us from all sin. (1 John 1 maybe?)

I don't believe we can go without making mistakes or misjudging. But if we do our actions from faith---we are then justified. I just believe that you can walk with this clear conscience in faith all the time.

What I don't believe is that we can have real repentance if we just think we'll do the same things over and over again. If we fall seven times, we get back up, determined not to fall again.

I also don't think were covered by the blood if we do wrong, and know it's wrong, but just want to use "grace" as a cop out from resisting temptation.

again, I could be misunderstanding you, But I would say this thinking comes from a lack of understanding of what sin is.

Paul had a besetting sin, Many believe his thorn in the flesh was given to help him curb this sin (pride)

I do not like this term use grace as a cop out. I do not know who came up with it. People who are truly born again would nto do this. It would be next to impossible. I know again by experience. even when I was a prodigal child. I never excused my sin, or tried to use grace as a cop out. And I felt the chastening Of God in s full way.

God brought me to my knees which led me back.. I do not doubt for a minute if I was not saved I would have ever came back. Because I would not have felt the guilt the shame, and the chastening of God.

I was acting outside my new nature. And it was poisonous.

 

[Wynona]

again, I could be misunderstanding you, But I would say this thinking comes from a lack of understanding of what sin is.

Paul had a besetting sin, Many believe his thorn in the flesh was given to help him curb this sin (pride)

I do not like this term use grace as a cop out. I do not know who came up with it. People who are truly born again would nto do this. It would be next to impossible. I know again by experience. even when I was a prodigal child. I never excused my sin, or tried to use grace as a cop out. And I felt the chastening Of God in s full way.

God brought me to my knees which led me back.. I do not doubt for a minute if I was not saved I would have ever came back. Because I would not have felt the guilt the shame, and the chastening of God.

I was acting outside my new nature. And it was poisonous.

What do you say sin is?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I don't see imperfect and sinful as the same. We do have lowly bodies. But that does not mean we are sinners by default till the resurrection.

I can see this. Depends on what our defenition of sin is

I define sin as transgression of the law.

This is a defenition amen

Did you know the actual word “hamarte” means “miss the mark”

what is the mark we missed?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What do you say sin is?

If Agape love fulfills the law. Then anything down not our of love is sin.

Basically it comes down to anything we do in the flesh, or not out of love.

Thats why we can do a good deed. But not out of love, but selfishly, and this is sin.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If Agape love fulfills the law. Then anything down not our of love is sin.

Basically it comes down to anything we do in the flesh, or not out of love.

Thats why we can do a good deed. But not out of love, but selfishly, and this is sin.

@Wynona I wanted to add. This is also why the natural man is said to not be able to do good. And Why the word says there is non righteous not even one. Or why Jesus said depart he never knew them, and the practices unrighteousness (sin)

A non believer can do a morally good thing, But it is not a work of righteousness. It in effect is sin, because it is not done out of pure agape love. Which only God could do..

 

[Wynona]

@Wynona I wanted to add. This is also why the natural man is said to not be able to do good. And Why the word says there is non righteous not even one. Or why Jesus said depart he never knew them, and the practices unrighteousness (sin)

A non believer can do a morally good thing, But it is not a work of righteousness. It in effect is sin, because it is not done out of pure agape love. Which only God could do..

IIf only God can do works of unselfish love, are Christians who do good acts sinning?

Im not sure Im following.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

IIf only God can do works of unselfish love, are Christians who do good acts sinning?

Im not sure Im following.

A Christian loves because god loved them to overflowing

A Christian does not have to serve self. He does not have to help his neighbor for glory or honor or to get something in return

A child of God has his or her needs met and God uses others to serve that child if Hod. Also his eternity is set in stone and no one can change that. So even sever suffering feels like as Paul said a “momentary light affliction”

The more a Christian grows the deeper his or her faith becomes and the more secure they are, this allows the believer to serve more and take less. Paul was a master of this. But at the same time he admitted he still struggled. He still had to run the race he still had to work out the salvation God gave him for fear his light would be snuffed out and he could no longer serve those he loved and win others to Christ because he did something that destroyed his testimony

Like I told another member. When we think we are sinless or have arrived we are in a dangerous place. For one. God can’t teach us or grow us if we think we already arrived. And 2 satan will trounce and since we think we have arrived and have it all and stop looking to God for security and peace we risk satan attacking and winning because our defense is down. I have seen many a great man or woman of Christ crash and burn because if this. I would not wish this on anyone!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

In Isaiah God was angry because the people kept sinning.
their deeds were self-righteous because the people did what THEY thought was good and not what God demanded.

See also Isaiah 65:1-7

1“I permitted Myself to be sought by those who did not ask for Me;
I permitted Myself to be found by those who did not seek Me.
I said, ‘Here am I, here am I,’
To a nation which did not call on My name.
2“I have spread out My hands all day long to a rebellious people,
Who walk in the way which is not good, following their own thoughts,

3A people who continually provoke Me to My face,
Offering sacrifices in gardens and burning incense on bricks;

4Who sit among graves and spend the night in secret places;
Who eat swine’s flesh,
And the broth of unclean meat is in their pots.

5“Who say, ‘Keep to yourself, do not come near me,
For I am holier than you!’
These are smoke in My nostrils,
A fire that burns all the day.

6“Behold, it is written before Me,
I will not keep silent, but I will repay;
I will even repay into their bosom,

7Both their own iniquities and the iniquities of their fathers together,” says the LORD.
“Because they have burned incense on the mountains
And scorned Me on the hills,
Therefore I will measure their former work into their bosom.”


God never causes conflict.
It's those that disobeyed Him and followed their own ways that He referred to as having filthy garments/rags.



I agree.
What you're describing is absolutely wrong.
And cannot be hidden from God...

Luke 16:15
15And he said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.


I guess you mean self-righteous works.
I could agree with that.

The problem, as I see it, is that some posters call ALL WORKS self-righteous because they have some idea that it's not necessary to do good works. They dress it up in fancy words....but the outcome is that they don't feel obligated to obey God. This is not what the NT teaches.

Agree. A little testimony if it helps? there’s a family of people God put in my life. I’m not downing them as if to say I have never did the things they did, only that Living and seeing what happens helps because it only brings more awareness to what God warns of.

I’ll make this brief. I’ve known them for a long time, and I saw all the abuse and lies and things done behind closed doors. Mostly they didn’t do the abuse but tried with everything they had to cover it up because it would destroy their image. If not destroy, it would at least bring them down to the same level as the rest of us. It affected me hard because it was my five year old grandson they saw abused by their son. They were admired in the community, admired in the school as church going “good works” people. No mater how hard you tried to fight to say this child was suffering abuse …their voice of how good they were was louder and drowned out his. I saw the things with my own eyes. he would cry and tell me things. Fast forward to their loosing grip and they attack any help given to the child as …even an organization that tried to help speak for the child they criticized as fake. Years later they even forget their own attack against that organization and end up at a fancy dinner (when it suits them) where they are writing a big check saying “it’s amazing how much good they do.” They actually told this where I could hear and I know without a doubt they really do not know it’s the same one that tired to help them tell the truth. I get that probably makes no sense to anyone else. But my grandson is seventeen now. They are still in our lives but act as if it never happened as long as they are always in control and look superior …as long as their truth never comes out. One day my grandson will remember, right now I think he has moved on and buried his earlier years somewhere in the darkness. I shared this with you because no I don’t think it is there are “no works in Christ”. There are greater works. I think it’s what it says …walking in the Light. But I’m trying to share with you (yes I think you understand as self righteousness) why I also get “filthy rags” where we cover ourself with things to hide the truth …being praised by the public and community where what happens behind closed doors stays behind closed doors. It doesn’t help anyone (Imo). Except maybe for a testimony of …don’t do that. In keeping with your title between “filthy rags” or “Fine linen bright and clean” …to me I learned those I mentioned in the above can keep “filthy rags” which is to save their own image or tell the truth regardless of what men think and put on “Fine linen bright and clean”. If I understood you correctly …the angst in the church or theology today would say …no, no, no that is saying they have to work for the “Fine linen bright and clean.”

I don’t think that is the message (working for salvation) but it’s the opposite of the working for the false image …to hide…where the truth is hidden in secret to keep the filthy rags. I say this because I’ve seen how much work goes into maintaining that false image. It’s a balancing act. A manipulative act and scrambling to work on that image to hide with to the point of worn out, exhausted. Like the saying if you are going to tell lies, then you better have a good memory. What I’ve learned in life is …that is not Freedom or Liberty in Christ. Because of seeing it happen in life right in front of my face, experiencing its damage. On the surface calling it in the community “saved by grace” ….but it refuses to take off the filthy rags for fear of image loss instead taught to hold it tight as cover and still walk saying “saved by grace” ….I wanted nothing more than for them to put on “Fine linen bright and clean” I mean that. Because that would be a victory for everyone I know involved. And it comes down to one simple thing “Trust God” yet the hardest thing to do… not stealing any more (through lies oppressing the weak), to be found not having our own righteousness but the Righteousness that comes from God. Where one does not fear telling the truth. Just say it like it happened. Don’t manipulate the truth to keep your good name in tack out in the community to save face. How hard is this? Watch people faces when they don’t want to acknowledge something…it seems to be one of the hardest things of all. Think of the Pharisees where it would kill them if Christ got through their self-righteous deeds and exposed them. They would howl.

Just my opinion.

 

[Wynona]

Like I told another member. When we think we are sinless or have arrived we are in a dangerous place. For one. God can’t teach us or grow us if we think we already arrived. And 2 satan will trounce and since we think we have arrived and have it all and stop looking to God for security and peace we risk satan attacking and winning because our defense is down. I have seen many a great man or woman of Christ crash and burn because if this. I would not wish this on anyone!

I think we must always examine ourselves, look forward, and never assume we can't grow. I just don't think you have to assumed youve sinned when you actually haven't.

I don't believe God would expect us to obey Him if it were this impossible thing for any of us to actually do.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I think we must always examine ourselves, look forward, and never assume we can't grow. I just don't think you have to assumed youve sinned when you actually haven't.

I don't believe God would expect us to obey Him if it were this impossible thing for any of us to actually do.

I stopped looking at the law awhile ago. I just try to serve people. Have I sinned in that time? I am sure if I looked in my heart I have. But I am not under law I am under grace so I don’t need to focus on self I just focus on others. I just do not assume I am sinless or have made it.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

James 2
24You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Romans 2
6who WILL REPAY EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; 8but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation. 9There will be tribulation and distress [g]for every soul of mankind who does evil, [h]for the Jew first and also for the Greek, 10but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God.
12For all who have sinned [j]without the Law will also perish [k]without the Law, and all who have sinned [l]under the Law will be judged [m]by the Law; 13for it is not the hearers [n]of the Law who are [o]righteous before God, but the doers [p]of the Law who will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have [q]the Law [r]instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my Gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.

I am trying to understand what God wants me to understand through His Word to us--when people (and many of these are people know God--God is merciful to our imperfections, and doesn't wait for us to have perfect theology to reveal Himself to us) tell me "saved by faith alone", it finds a lot of problems when I read Scripture, which certainly contradicts that teaching.

Because we are justified by faith counted as righteousness, so that we arrive at peace with God (Ro 5:1), my question is as to how our daily walk in righteousness should be approached, what it should be motivated by, considering that it also determines our standing with God (condemned (Ro 14:23) or justified (Ro 2; Ja 2)--both in the now and in the future judgment). How do we do it without fear (God doesn't want work with or from fear (Judges 7:2+; Ro 8:15)), knowing it determines our justification? How do we avoid disturbing the peace we already arrived at by the righteousness of faith when we are going about doing right by faith in our daily lives? Romans 14:6 says that when we do things we are fully convinced are correct, it is to be done with "thanks". That is to be the character of our walk, not fear, even though we know our standing depends on how we walk.

You said: I am trying to understand what God wants me to understand through His Word to us--when people (and many of these are people know God--God is merciful to our imperfections, and doesn't wait for us to have perfect theology to reveal Himself to us) tell me "saved by faith alone", it finds a lot of problems when I read Scripture, which certainly contradicts that teaching.

He will help you understand what He wants you to understand. I can’t express how much I hated Numbers 5 because it sounds like a freaking ritual. But for some reason I kept going back to it, with the same question “what are you wanting me to understand?” All I saw was freighting —seeming pointless…until late one night I saw Christ in it where the Free woman conceives and bears, bringing forth a child. Now my husband asks me why I read so much about the woman in Numbers 5 and the woman who is Free in Romans 7. Because to me it’s important speaking of the difference in one who is called an adulterous and her works dead. And one free, to conceives, and bring forth fruit unto God. Called no adulterous. But it’s been years of asking that same question you keep asking Him “what do you want me to see?” Personally, He has never failed to answer that question maybe a little at a time, but I’ve no doubt He will answers yours as well.

 

[Wynona]

I stopped looking at the law awhile ago. I just try to serve people. Have I sinned in that time? I am sure if I looked in my heart I have. But I am not under law I am under grace so I don’t need to focus on self I just focus on others. I just do not assume I am sinless or have made it.

All sins aren't sins unto death either. When you keep busy doing the right things, you often don't have time for those.

 

[Behold]

remaining "in Christ" requires obeying God's commands

Being born again as "in Christ" was not caused by obeying God's commands.....therefore, staying in Christ is not related to obeying God's commands.

Becoming "in Christ" is based on Spiritual Birth, and that is why you : "remain there also".

Q.) How to become "in Christ" and "remain In Christ". ??????????????

Do this...

= Jesus said....>>"YOU must be Born..........again".

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I stopped looking at the law awhile ago. I just try to serve people. Have I sinned in that time? I am sure if I looked in my heart I have. But I am not under law I am under grace so I don’t need to focus on self I just focus on others. I just do not assume I am sinless or have made it.

Not to butt in but I’ve been told so many times “you were never under the law”. This confuses me because it seems I was adopted into it. Indoctrinated. It started early…even with the plate passed around at church saying that the tithe is ten percent if you want to be blessed of God. Where he’ll multiply your money. I am seriously confused because I don’t see how you can ever go to church and not at least adopt some of the law where the struggle begins …if you are going to keep even one of the laws, then you must keep the whole law?

 

[GodsGrace]

Agree. A little testimony if it helps? there’s a family of people God put in my life. I’m not downing them as if to say I have never did the things they did, only that Living and seeing what happens helps because it only brings more awareness to what God warns of.

I’ll make this brief. I’ve known them for a long time, and I saw all the abuse and lies and things done behind closed doors. Mostly they didn’t do the abuse but tried with everything they had to cover it up because it would destroy their image. If not destroy, it would at least bring them down to the same level as the rest of us. It affected me hard because it was my five year old grandson they saw abused by their son. They were admired in the community, admired in the school as church going “good works” people. No mater how hard you tried to fight to say this child was suffering abuse …their voice of how good they were was louder and drowned out his. I saw the things with my own eyes. he would cry and tell me things. Fast forward to their loosing grip and they attack any help given to the child as …even an organization that tried to help speak for the child they criticized as fake. Years later they even forget their own attack against that organization and end up at a fancy dinner (when it suits them) where they are writing a big check saying “it’s amazing how much good they do.” They actually told this where I could hear and I know without a doubt they really do not know it’s the same one that tired to help them tell the truth. I get that probably makes no sense to anyone else. But my grandson is seventeen now. They are still in our lives but act as if it never happened as long as they are always in control and look superior …as long as their truth never comes out. One day my grandson will remember, right now I think he has moved on and buried his earlier years somewhere in the darkness. I shared this with you because no I don’t think it is there are “no works in Christ”. There are greater works. I think it’s what it says …walking in the Light. But I’m trying to share with you (yes I think you understand as self righteousness) why I also get “filthy rags” where we cover ourself with things to hide the truth …being praised by the public and community where what happens behind closed doors stays behind closed doors. It doesn’t help anyone (Imo). Except maybe for a testimony of …don’t do that. In keeping with your title between “filthy rags” or “Fine linen bright and clean” …to me I learned those I mentioned in the above can keep “filthy rags” which is to save their own image or tell the truth regardless of what men think and put on “Fine linen bright and clean”. If I understood you correctly …the angst in the church or theology today would say …no, no, no that is saying they have to work for the “Fine linen bright and clean.”

Well Victory,,,,I agree with you that if those persons above define themselves as Christians, then I'll have to agree that they display filthy rags toward God. But, like I said, HE will always know the truth.

I've also known persons like this. One would mention JESUS every now and then---it made me shudder.
These are persons that are not walking in the light....and you know what the NT states about persons not walking in the light.
They do evil.....and evil doers are not followers of Jesus nor are they children of God.

Vengeance is mine says the Lord.
In the end it all pans out....even if it takes a very long time,
and if not in this world - then in the next.
God is a just God.

I don’t think that is the message (working for salvation) but it’s the opposite of the working for the false image …to hide…where the truth is hidden in secret to keep the filthy rags. I say this because I’ve seen how much work goes into maintaining that false image. It’s a balancing act. A manipulative act and scrambling to work on that image to hide with to the point of worn out, exhausted. Like the saying if you are going to tell lies, then you better have a good memory.

Pretty funny! I say this all the time.
Can't lie even if I wanted to --- bad memory!
LOL

What I’ve learned in life is …that is not Freedom or Liberty in Christ. Because of seeing it happen in life right in front of my face, experiencing its damage. On the surface calling it in the community “saved by grace” ….but it refuses to take off the filthy rags for fear of image loss instead taught to hold it tight as cover and still walk saying “saved by grace” ….I wanted nothing more than for them to put on “Fine linen bright and clean” I mean that. Because that would be a victory for everyone I know involved. And it comes down to one simple thing “Trust God” yet the hardest thing to do… not stealing any more (through lies oppressing the weak), to be found not having our own righteousness but the Righteousness that comes from God. Where one does not fear telling the truth. Just say it like it happened. Don’t manipulate the truth to keep your good name in tack out in the community to save face. How hard is this? Watch people faces when they don’t want to acknowledge something…it seems to be one of the hardest things of all. Think of the Pharisees where it would kill them if Christ got through their self-righteous deeds and exposed them. They would howl.

Just my opinion.

You're right Victory.
I'm sorry you've been through so much and within your own family.
The best advice I could give you is this: You must forgive them...keep away as much as you can, but forgive them in your heart.
You sound like you have a lot of hurt inside you and you need to get rid of it - for your own good. I've had to do this with my husband's family. It's possible.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Not to butt in but I’ve been told so many times “you were never under the law”. This confuses me because it seems I was adopted into it. Indoctrinated. It started early…even with the plate passed around at church saying that the tithe is ten percent if you want to be blessed of God. Where he’ll multiply your money. I am seriously confused because I don’t see how you can ever go to church and not at least adopt some of the law where the struggle begins …if you are going to keep even one of the laws, then you must keep the whole law?

This sadly goes to the issue and why there is so much confusion

While we were technically never under law (it was for the Jew) the law would still
Condemn us where we stand. Just because we were technically not under it does not mean we can not note it or think we can not meet its standard and still be righteous. Just because you are not under law does
Not mean covering is ok it is still a sin and the law would still Condemn us as sinners

The difference between Grace and law is if i
Covet under law I am convicted and guilty. Under grace I can. Not be convicted as guilty
Because Grace covers that sin (the blood if Christ). However Grace does not cover the result the pain the suffering and the consequence of those sins. Everything will be the same under grace and law in that case. The difference is under law your condemned under grace you will be chastened by God (let me tell you that is not fun being chastened by God)

As for the tithe it was an income tax for the Jews. Mostly food. It was never commanded to the church

Is it a sin to Tithe? No. Will you be blessed if you do it? I would say no. I only know two people who Tithed and both did it out of legalistic mindset (it is required) they put themselves under law. One lost his house and the other eventually left God because he suffered so Much.

If you can afford it great if not as Paul said give if a cheerful heart