Filthy Rags versus Fine Linen Bright and Clean

[VictoryinJesus]

by not walking in what he is fully persuaded is correct with thanks (Ro 14:5,6), "is condemned" (Ro 14:23),

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin.

? I’m not sure what you are asking or getting at? It might be me. I’m not feeling well today. I still have a headache. Can you say it clearer for me? Are you proving something, disproving it, or asking a question?

 

[GracePeace]

I thought you were only asking about the “filthy rags” verse? Where does it fit?

"Filthy rags" is how many users will describe "a righteousness of my own".
Therefore, I describe "God's righteousness" Christians are to walk in, and be justified by, as "fine linen bright and clean" (Rv 19:7,8).

 

[Wynona]

"Filthy rags" is how many users will describe "a righteousness of my own".
Therefore, I describe "God's righteousness" Christians are to walk in, and be justified by, as "fine linen bright and clean" (Rv 19:7,8).

:) The wedding garment! We don't want to get kicked out the Wedding!

Matthew 22:11-14

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.



(righteousness is our garment)

 

[GracePeace]

:) The wedding garment! We don't want to get kicked out the Wedding!

Matthew 22:11-14

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.



(righteousness is our garment)

Yup.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

"Filthy rags" is how many users will describe "a righteousness of my own".
Therefore, I describe "God's righteousness" Christians are to walk in, and be justified by, as "fine linen bright and clean" (Rv 19:7,8).

oh. I love it.

 

[Soyeong]

For "faith aloners" who want to argue against Paul's teaching that only doers of the law will be justified when we are judged (Ro 2:6-16) (James 2 teaches it, too), a frequent resort is to the complaint, "That's a false Gospel of filthy Rags of self righteousness--being saved by a righteousness of your own!" : "God's righteousness is revealed from faith to faith" (Ro 1:17), so when we walk in faith, "fully convinced in our own minds" (Ro 14:5), giving thanks (Ro 14:6), not wavering (Ro 14:23), that is God's righteousness, thus, categorically, not a righteousness of my own, thus "fine linen bright and clean", not "filthy rags", grace, not works, thus the complaint is just another in a long line of baseless empty objections.

This also handily explains why there is "no condemnation" for those in Christ (Ro 8:1), but why the sinning Christian (the one who doesn't walk in God's righteousness by faith) is "condemned" (Ro 14:23) : remaining "in Christ" requires obeying God's commands (i. believe, and ii. walk in love (Jn 15; 1 Jn 3:23,24)), but the believer in Ro 14:23 is sinning, so he's not remaining "in Christ", in Whom "there is no condemnation".

Note : I'm not presenting these arguments as someone who "has it all together", but as someone who has looked for a coherent message from Scripture, because I understand that only when I understand what is being asked can I fulfill my end of the bargain--because when the pressure is on, collapse is inevitable without a rock solid foundation.

Someone or something can be alone in difference senses, such as someone can be alone apart from the presence of other humans while not be alone apart from the presence of their pets. So become righteous by faith alone apart from being required to have first done a certain amount of righteous works in order to earn it as a result, but becoming righteous is not alone apart from becoming a doer of righteous works because becoming righteous means becoming a doer of righteous works. Likewise, there are no amount of courageous works that someone is required to have done first in order to earn becoming courageous, but rather the only way to become courageous is through faith, but becoming courageous means becoming a doer of courageous works, and the same is true for all other character traits. This is why the faith by which we are declared righteous does not abolish our need to be a doer of God's law, but rather our faith upholds it (Romans 3:27-31). In other words, God's law was not given as a means of earning our righteousness, but in order to teach us how to be doers of righteous works, which is why Paul said in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the law will be declared righteous. Another way to put it is that we become someone who has faith, someone who will be declared righteous, and someone who is a doer of the law all at the same time and anyone who is not one is also not the others. This is also why the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law (Isaiah 51:7) and why everyone who is a doer of righteous works is righteous even as he is righteous (1 John 3:7).

Something that we do on our own does not involve relying on anyone else, so it is contradictory to think that relying on God's law is something that we can do on our own. God's law was not given as instructions for how to establish our own righteousness, but as instructions for how to testify about His righteousness. Likewise, God's law was not given as instructions for how to establish our own goodness, but for how to testify about God's goodness, which is why our good works give glory to Him (Matthew 5:16).

God does not command filthy rags, but rather the righteous deeds of the saints are like fine white linen (Revelation 19:8).

Everything that is not of faith is sin (Romans 14:23), everything that is in transgression of God's law is sin (1 John 3:4), and everything that is in transgression of God's law is not of faith (Matthew 23:23).

Christ set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to God's law and those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), so verses like Romans 8:1 that refer to those who are in Christ are only referring to those who are walking in obedience to God's law.

 

[GracePeace]

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin.

? I’m not sure what you are asking or getting at? It might be me. I’m not feeling well today. I still have a headache. Can you say it clearer for me? Are you proving something, disproving it, or asking a question?

James 2
24You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Romans 2
6who WILL REPAY EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; 8but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation. 9There will be tribulation and distress [g]for every soul of mankind who does evil, [h]for the Jew first and also for the Greek, 10but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God.
12For all who have sinned [j]without the Law will also perish [k]without the Law, and all who have sinned [l]under the Law will be judged [m]by the Law; 13for it is not the hearers [n]of the Law who are [o]righteous before God, but the doers [p]of the Law who will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have [q]the Law [r]instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my Gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.

I am trying to understand what God wants me to understand through His Word to us--when people (and many of these are people know God--God is merciful to our imperfections, and doesn't wait for us to have perfect theology to reveal Himself to us) tell me "saved by faith alone", it finds a lot of problems when I read Scripture, which certainly contradicts that teaching.

Because we are justified by faith counted as righteousness, so that we arrive at peace with God (Ro 5:1), my question is as to how our daily walk in righteousness should be approached, what it should be motivated by, considering that it also determines our standing with God (condemned (Ro 14:23) or justified (Ro 2; Ja 2)--both in the now and in the future judgment). How do we do it without fear (God doesn't want work with or from fear (Judges 7:2+; Ro 8:15)), knowing it determines our justification? How do we avoid disturbing the peace we already arrived at by the righteousness of faith when we are going about doing right by faith in our daily lives? Romans 14:6 says that when we do things we are fully convinced are correct, it is to be done with "thanks". That is to be the character of our walk, not fear, even though we know our standing depends on how we walk.

 

[GracePeace]

Someone or something can be alone in difference senses, such as someone can be alone apart from the presence of other humans while not be alone apart from the presence of their pets. So become righteous by faith alone apart from being required to have first done a certain amount of righteous works in order to earn it as a result, but becoming righteous is not alone apart from becoming a doer of righteous works because becoming righteous means becoming a doer of righteous works.

The problem is they claim our lives we live after having been saved cannot affect our standing before God, but that is not what I see when I read God's Word to us--I see the one who does not walk in God's righteousness, because he is doing things he doesn't believe are correct, is condemned (Ro 1:17, 14:5, 23), whereas those who are "doers of the Law", by dint of walking according to the Spirit (Ro 2:6-16, 3:31, 8:4, 13:8-10), are "justified". James says the same.

So, again, when they say "faith alone", they mean "my life after I'm justified cannot affect my justification"--that is the problem--but it is also a problem if a person serves with fear (Jd 7:2+; Ro 8:15), as if Christ had done nothing (Mt 25:24+).

Something that we do on our own does not involve relying on anyone else, so it is contradictory to think that relying on God's law is something that we can do on our own. God's law was not given as instructions for how to establish our own righteousness, but as instructions for how to testify about His righteousness. Likewise, God's law was not given as instructions for how to establish our own goodness, but for how to testify about God's goodness, which is why our good works give glory to Him (Matthew 5:16).

In case you are saying we're to serve by Torah, I'm going to disagree--but I do like your angle that we are to display God's righteousness, not our own (not that that was the idea behind the Law--eg, "it will be our righteousness").

God does not command filthy rags, but rather the righteous deeds of the saints are like fine white linen (Revelation 19:8).

This refers to the righteousness God works in us--as opposed to righteousness we ourselves generate.
Ro 14:23 says "each man must be fully convinced in his own mind" and "I know and am fully persuaded"--but "this persuasion does not come from Him Who calls you" (Gal 5:8). The righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith (Ro 1:17).

Everything that is not of faith is sin (Romans 14:23), everything that is in transgression of God's law is sin (1 John 3:4), and everything that is in transgression of God's law is not of faith (Matthew 23:23).

No, actually, we don't serve by Torah--even Jesus overruled Torah, calling the taking of vows, permitted under Torah, "of the evil one", just as He denounces the permission Torah gave to divorce your wife "for any cause" as "adultery" (also "of the evil one") in Matthew 19.

Christ set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to God's law and those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), so verses like Romans 8:1 that refer to those who are in Christ are only referring to those who are walking in obedience to God's law.

Walking in faith is the law for Christians today. That is because God works the conviction, and, so, walking in that conviction, not wavering, is the same as God doing the work, so that "it is no longer I who live but Christ", "I was abundant in labors above them all yet not I but Christ", and "Christ came and preached to you" (when the preacher preached the Gospel, Paul calls that "Christ").

 

[Soyeong]

For by grace (it is actually through grace we are saved, not faith) we have been saved (a completed action) through grace (only those who actually trust God will recieve his gift of Grace) and not of ourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works (we can not work our way to heaven, it is of Grace) lest anyone would boast (Boast in saving themselves)

Our works are as bloody rags because that is all they are good for when it comes to recieving eternal life.

Trying to get to God through our works is like trying to hand God a bloody rag, and saying here God I give you this to pay for my sin Or better yet, I had a pastor one time use this example

Take two cups of pure water.

Now one cup fill it halfway with Urine (Urine represents our works)

and take the other cup. And put a few drops of urine in it

Now give these to God

which one do you think he will drink?

If your honest, you would say niether, and you would be correct.

That is what it looks like when we look at the human condition. Some are not so bad when we come to moral sin, some are real bad, but it does not matter, when it comes to a holy God. All of us are stained with the stain of sin, there is non righteous no not even one

Now once a person is saved, works shed a new light. Now we are working to serve, to love and to raw others to God. But even this is not of our own power. It is the power of God. We love because he first loved us

Lets not replace liceniousness (easy believism) with legalism.

Let’s meet in the middle. Point to God. Give him all the credit. Lets not hand him our bloody rags, or glass of dirty water as payment for our sin.. He paid the price in full (it is finished)

In Psalms 119:29, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through His law, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to teach us how to know God and Jesus, which is eternal life (John 17:3), and which again is salvation by grace through faith. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so God was gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way and he was righteous because he obeyed through faith. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Ephesians 2:9-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while we do not earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, being a doer of good works is nevertheless a central part of our salvation. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not extrinsically required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not extrinsically required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to experience being doers of those works is intrinsically part of His gift of salvation.

The experience of doing something can itself be a gift, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour, where the gift intrinsically requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work contributes nothing to detract from the fact that the opportunity to drive it was completely given as a gift. Likewise, the gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing God and Jesus and the gift of God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience, which is why the Bible is abundantly clear that obeying it is the way to inherit life (Deuteronomy 30:11-20, Deuteronomy 32:46-47, Proverbs 3:18, Proverbs 6:23, Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28, Hebrews 5:9, Revelation 22:14).

God does not command filthy rags, but rather the righteous deeds of the saints are like fine white linen (Revelation 19:8).

 

[Wynona]

Walking in faith is the law for Christians today. That is because God works the conviction, and, so, walking in that conviction, not wavering, is the same as God doing the work, so that "it is no longer I who live but Christ", "I was abundant in labors above them all yet not I but Christ", and "Christ came and preached to you" (when the preacher preached the Gospel, Paul calls that "Christ").

Can I save this and use this explanation, giving credit? This is one of the most helpful breakdowns of walking by faith Ive seen on here.

 

[Soyeong]

H Victory....
No Christian is under THE LAW.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Christ began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent of the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and God's law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom. Christ also set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to God's law and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked. So Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey God's law by word and by example and being a Christian is about being a follower of what Christ taught, so every Christian is under the Law of God. The law that no Christian is under is the law of sin.

We are all under the New Covenant.

In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting His law in our minds and writing it on our hearts, so everything who is under the New Covenant is under the Law of God and anyone who is not under the Law of God is not a member of the New Covenant.

Could you read my post no. 3 regarding filthy rags and see what you think of it.
I maintain it is one of the most misunderstood verses in the bible.

All throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to His law, so He does not then turn around and hold the people who do that in contempt by viewing our obedience to His commands as being filthy rags. God does not command filthy rags, but rather the righteous deeds of the saints are like fine white linen (Revelation 19:8). In Isaiah 64:6, it was not God speaking, but rather it was the people hyperbolically complaining about God not coming down and making His presence known.

 

[GodsGrace]

I read it. If I understood you correctly the question is since God desires good things and good fruit…why then would God be angry to call our good works “filthy rags”. Seems impossible for His being angry over our “good works” so then …those who interrupt that passage to mean what it says “that our good works are filthy rags” misinterpreted it? Correct?

In Isaiah God was angry because the people kept sinning.
their deeds were self-righteous because the people did what THEY thought was good and not what God demanded.

See also Isaiah 65:1-7

1“I permitted Myself to be sought by those who did not ask for Me;
I permitted Myself to be found by those who did not seek Me.
I said, ‘Here am I, here am I,’
To a nation which did not call on My name.
2“I have spread out My hands all day long to a rebellious people,
Who walk in the way which is not good, following their own thoughts,

3A people who continually provoke Me to My face,
Offering sacrifices in gardens and burning incense on bricks;

4Who sit among graves and spend the night in secret places;
Who eat swine’s flesh,
And the broth of unclean meat is in their pots.

5“Who say, ‘Keep to yourself, do not come near me,
For I am holier than you!’
These are smoke in My nostrils,
A fire that burns all the day.

6“Behold, it is written before Me,
I will not keep silent, but I will repay;
I will even repay into their bosom,

7Both their own iniquities and the iniquities of their fathers together,” says the LORD.
“Because they have burned incense on the mountains
And scorned Me on the hills,
Therefore I will measure their former work into their bosom.”


God never causes conflict.
It's those that disobeyed Him and followed their own ways that He referred to as having filthy garments/rags.

This is only my opinion. It’s from living and breathing in this world. There are good works that makes a person high-minded and drunk on themselves…these works are not really about the other person (even though we convince ourselves they are), but to build ourself up. It’s in our nature. False facades that deceive. Take a man who beats his wife yet he does the kind things also to make up for the beatings. In his mind …he doesn’t acknowledge the beatings but only sees “his good works” deceiving himself to say she is wrong, that she has no right to speak up for he does “good”. She could say “your good works are filthy rags.” Because they are ….deceptive to oppress another.

I agree.
What you're describing is absolutely wrong.
And cannot be hidden from God...

Luke 16:15
15And he said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

Maybe none of that make sense but it’s all to say I think it’s interpreted correctly that our works are filthy rags but its those works we use to deceive ourselves by…which God wants to free us from deception. Same as when He told them He was sick of their sacrifices …because their hearts were far from Him. Although they were offering Him sacrifices.

I guess you mean self-righteous works.
I could agree with that.

The problem, as I see it, is that some posters call ALL WORKS self-righteous because they have some idea that it's not necessary to do good works. They dress it up in fancy words....but the outcome is that they don't feel obligated to obey God. This is not what the NT teaches.

 

[GracePeace]

Can I save this and use this explanation, giving credit? This is one of the most helpful breakdowns of walking by faith Ive seen on here.

Sure. You may find a lot of my interactions helpful, because I deal with this topic in depth. I want help to understand, and I want to help people not be confused by the "standard" explanations that make no sense.

Being under Law is a righteousness of our own, apart from knowing God--we arrange our heart and thoughts.
Being under Grace is God's righteousness, knowing God--He works convictions in us.

 

[GracePeace]

Everything that is not of faith is sin (Romans 14:23), everything that is in transgression of God's law is sin (1 John 3:4), and everything that is in transgression of God's law is not of faith (Matthew 23:23).

Sin, which does not need the Law to be performed, registers in the Law as transgression.
But not all transgression of the Law is a result of sin--eg, the priests are guiltless working on the Sabbath in the Temple.
God's righteousness, which does not need the Law to be performed, registers in the Law as "law keeping".

 

[Wynona]

Sure. You may find a lot of my interactions helpful, because I deal with this topic in depth. I want help to understand, and I want to help people not be confused by the "standard" explanations that make no sense.

Thanks, and yes, yes I do!

I think you are doing a way better job than I can and Im really grateful!

The explanation I got was that Christians should be growing in their faith and getting more obedient gradually but that we can never stop sinning in this lifetime. I don't believe this anymore, but people would use 1 John 1:8 as a proof text for this. (I think you covered that too?)

I like clear thinking because I think I get clouded by frustration at times.

 

[GracePeace]

In Matthew 4:15-23, Christ began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent of the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and God's law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom. Christ also set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to God's law and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked. So Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey God's law by word and by example and being a Christian is about being a follower of what Christ taught, so every Christian is under the Law of God. The law that no Christian is under is the law of sin.


In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting His law in our minds and writing it on our hearts, so everything who is under the New Covenant is under the Law of God and anyone who is not under the Law of God is not a member of the New Covenant.


All throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to His law, so He does not then turn around and hold the people who do that in contempt by viewing our obedience to His commands as being filthy rags. God does not command filthy rags, but rather the righteous deeds of the saints are like fine white linen (Revelation 19:8). In Isaiah 64:6, it was not God speaking, but rather it was the people hyperbolically complaining about God not coming down and making His presence known.

We are justified by God's righteousness revealed from faith to faith (Ro 1:17).
The "one Law" (Ex 12:49) for Christians is "each man is to be fully convinced in his own mind" (Ro 14:5), and "give thanks" (Ro 14:6)--breaking that rule is "sin" (Ro 14:23)--if observing a day or a dietary rule were the "one Law", if we were under the Law, then Paul couldn't have said the "one Law" was "each man is to be fully convinced in his own mind".

 

[GracePeace]

Thanks, and yes, yes I do!

I think you are doing a way better job than I can and Im really grateful!

The explanation I got was that Christians should be growing in their faith and getting more obedient gradually but that we can never stop sinning in this lifetime. I don't believe this anymore, but people would use 1 John 1:8 as a proof text for this. (I think you covered that too?)

I like clear thinking because I think I get clouded by frustration at times.

Even John sinned (you can see this in the Book of Revelation), so I think glorifying God by righteousness gets more and more perfect over time--if John wasn't 100% perfect, we won't reach perfection, either. We will be as He is when we see Him at His return (1 Jn 3).

 

[GodsGrace]

In Matthew 4:15-23, Christ began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent of the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and God's law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom. Christ also set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to God's law and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked. So Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey God's law by word and by example and being a Christian is about being a follower of what Christ taught, so every Christian is under the Law of God. The law that no Christian is under is the law of sin.


In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting His law in our minds and writing it on our hearts, so everything who is under the New Covenant is under the Law of God and anyone who is not under the Law of God is not a member of the New Covenant.


All throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to His law, so He does not then turn around and hold the people who do that in contempt by viewing our obedience to His commands as being filthy rags. God does not command filthy rags, but rather the righteous deeds of the saints are like fine white linen (Revelation 19:8). In Isaiah 64:6, it was not God speaking, but rather it was the people hyperbolically complaining about God not coming down and making His presence known.

Great post Soyeong!!
Nothing to add....
You've touched on The Kingdom, The New Covenant, and the Law of Christ.
Perfect.

 

[GodsGrace]

Thanks, and yes, yes I do!

I think you are doing a way better job than I can and Im really grateful!

The explanation I got was that Christians should be growing in their faith and getting more obedient gradually but that we can never stop sinning in this lifetime. I don't believe this anymore, but people would use 1 John 1:8 as a proof text for this. (I think you covered that too?)

I like clear thinking because I think I get clouded by frustration at times.

Do you believe we can stop sinning in this lifetime?
Not sure I understand the above.

 

[GracePeace]

The problem, as I see it, is that some posters call ALL WORKS self-righteous because they have some idea that it's not necessary to do good works. They dress it up in fancy words....but the outcome is that they don't feel obligated to obey God. This is not what the NT teaches.

They want to preserve the peace with God through righteousness of faith... that explains it but it doesn't excuse what they are doing, being underhanded and dishonest and incoherent.