Filthy Rags versus Fine Linen Bright and Clean

[GracePeace]

For "faith aloners" who want to argue against Paul's teaching that only doers of the law will be justified when we are judged (Ro 2:6-16) (James 2 teaches it, too), a frequent resort is to the complaint, "That's a false Gospel of filthy Rags of self righteousness--being saved by a righteousness of your own!" : "God's righteousness is revealed from faith to faith" (Ro 1:17), so when we walk in faith, "fully convinced in our own minds" (Ro 14:5), giving thanks (Ro 14:6), not wavering (Ro 14:23), that is God's righteousness, thus, categorically, not a righteousness of my own, thus "fine linen bright and clean", not "filthy rags", grace, not works, thus the complaint is just another in a long line of baseless empty objections.

This also handily explains why there is "no condemnation" for those in Christ (Ro 8:1), but why the sinning Christian (the one who doesn't walk in God's righteousness by faith) is "condemned" (Ro 14:23) : remaining "in Christ" requires obeying God's commands (i. believe, and ii. walk in love (Jn 15; 1 Jn 3:23,24)), but the believer in Ro 14:23 is sinning, so he's not remaining "in Christ", in Whom "there is no condemnation".

Note : I'm not presenting these arguments as someone who "has it all together", but as someone who has looked for a coherent message from Scripture, because I understand that only when I understand what is being asked can I fulfill my end of the bargain--because when the pressure is on, collapse is inevitable without a rock solid foundation.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

For by grace (it is actually through grace we are saved, not faith) we have been saved (a completed action) through grace (only those who actually trust God will recieve his gift of Grace) and not of ourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works (we can not work our way to heaven, it is of Grace) lest anyone would boast (Boast in saving themselves)

Our works are as bloody rags because that is all they are good for when it comes to recieving eternal life.

Trying to get to God through our works is like trying to hand God a bloody rag, and saying here God I give you this to pay for my sin Or better yet, I had a pastor one time use this example

Take two cups of pure water.

Now one cup fill it halfway with Urine (Urine represents our works)

and take the other cup. And put a few drops of urine in it

Now give these to God

which one do you think he will drink?

If your honest, you would say niether, and you would be correct.

That is what it looks like when we look at the human condition. Some are not so bad when we come to moral sin, some are real bad, but it does not matter, when it comes to a holy God. All of us are stained with the stain of sin, there is non righteous no not even one

Now once a person is saved, works shed a new light. Now we are working to serve, to love and to raw others to God. But even this is not of our own power. It is the power of God. We love because he first loved us

Lets not replace liceniousness (easy believism) with legalism.

Let’s meet in the middle. Point to God. Give him all the credit. Lets not hand him our bloody rags, or glass of dirty water as payment for our sin.. He paid the price in full (it is finished)

 

[GodsGrace]

For by grace (it is actually through grace we are saved, not faith) we have been saved (a completed action) through grace (only those who actually trust God will recieve his gift of Grace) and not of ourselves.

EG,
You're sounding like a reformed believer.
Look at what you're saying:
IT IS ONLY THROUGH GRACE THAT WE ARE SAVED......(not faith).....this is irresistible grace.
It teaches that only God saves through no action of our own and for no apparent reason.

Then you go on to say that only those who trust God will receive the gift of faith.
So, like the calvinists, you put something before faith....in this case trust.
How could we TRUST GOD IF we have NO FAITH in Him??

Do YOU trust persons in whom you have no faith?

It is the gift of God, not of works (we can not work our way to heaven, it is of Grace) lest anyone would boast (Boast in saving themselves)

Our works are as bloody rags because that is all they are good for when it comes to recieving eternal life.

Trying to get to God through our works is like trying to hand God a bloody rag, and saying here God I give you this to pay for my sin Or better yet, I had a pastor one time use this example

Take two cups of pure water.

The Filthy Rags:

Isaiah 64:6
6For all of us have become like one who is unclean,
And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;
And all of us wither like a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

Let's find out what it means:

Isaiah 64:5
Thou dost rejoice in him who rejoices in righteousness...who remembers Thee in Thy ways.

Behold, Thou was angry BECAUSE WE SINNED,
We CONTINUED IN THEM a long time...
shall we be saved?

For all of us have become as one who is UNCLEAN,
our righteous deeds are like filthy garments,
all of us whither like a leaf,
and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.


Isaiah 64:6 is one of the most misused verses in the entire bible.
God was mad at those that were committing INIQUITY....
they were continually sinning against God.

Why would our good works be like filthy garments when it is GOD that DEMANDS that we obey Him?

Ephesians 2:10
10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

And God rejoices in those that are righteous....in those that remember HIS WAYS.

context is everything.
Plucking verses out does not work.

Let’s meet in the middle. Point to God. Give him all the credit. Lets not hand him our bloody rags, or glass of dirty water as payment for our sin.. He paid the price in full (it is finished)

No meeting in the middle.
As I?ve already stated...there is no 3rd way.

We either believe in God and have faith in Him and obey Him.
or we're lost.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

EG,
You're sounding like a reformed believer.

First off. I follow no man. If your going to try to put me under a doctrine then stop for you will never hear a word I say past you own preconceived notion

Look at what you're saying:
IT IS ONLY THROUGH GRACE THAT WE ARE SAVED......(not faith).....

That what Paul said. I repeated his words

For it is grace we have been saved

Was Paul wrong?

this is irresistible grace.

No it is not if grace was irreparable all would be saved for god died for the whole world. And is willing that no one should perish

See your reading me through doctrinal eyes trying to prove something that is not true about me and in turn getting it all wrong

It teaches that only God saves through no action of our own and for no apparent reason.

This would only be true if you stopped there. U did not

For it is by grace we have been saved (a completed action) through faith

Only those who reply chose to receive gods gift are saved. By the grace God offers to everyone

Then you go on to say that only those who trust God will receive the gift of faith.

Again that’s what Paul said

For it is by grace we have been saved THROUGH FAITH

So, like the calvinists, you put something before faith....in this case trust.

Faith is trust. The defenition of biblical faith is a confidence a trust it’s not mere belief as James spoke about in James 2

How could we TRUST GOD IF we have NO FAITH in Him??

You don’t. And I never said otherwise

Do YOU trust persons in whom you have no faith?

No I never said this. Why do you assume I think otherwise?

The Filthy Rags:

Isaiah 64:6
6For all of us have become like one who is unclean,
And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;
And all of us wither like a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

Let's find out what it means:

Isaiah 64:5
Thou dost rejoice in him who rejoices in righteousness...who remembers Thee in Thy ways.

Behold, Thou was angry BECAUSE WE SINNED,
We CONTINUED IN THEM a long time...
shall we be saved?

For all of us have become as one who is UNCLEAN,
our righteous deeds are like filthy garments,
all of us whither like a leaf,
and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.


Isaiah 64:6 is one of the most misused verses in the entire bible.
God was mad at those that were committing INIQUITY....
they were continually sinning against God.

Why would our good works be like filthy garments when it is GOD that DEMANDS that we obey Him?

If your trying to earn salvation by works it’s filthy rags. Do you really want me to explain it again?

Ephesians 2:10
10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Yes who is we? Those who were saved BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH NOT WORKS

And God rejoices in those that are righteous....in those that remember HIS WAYS.

context is everything.
Plucking verses out does not work.

The. Why do you do it?

No meeting in the middle.
As I?ve already stated...there is no 3rd way.

There is only one way

The middle way

Not licentiousness or easy believism and not by legalism or religion

We either believe in God and have faith in Him and obey Him.
or we're lost.

Many believe but then add works. They are las
Lost as the licentious person who thinks they just say some silly prayer.

They are both lost because both trust self and not god

Are you going to try to understand what I believe or keep assuming you know And remain blind to what I actually believe

 

[VictoryinJesus]

For "faith aloners" who want to argue against Paul's teaching that only doers of the law will be justified when we are judged (Ro 2:6-16) (James 2 teaches it, too), a frequent resort is to the complaint, "That's a false Gospel of filthy Rags of self righteousness--being saved by a righteousness of your own!" : "God's righteousness is revealed from faith to faith" (Ro 1:17), so when we walk in faith, "fully convinced in our own minds" (Ro 14:5), giving thanks (Ro 14:6), not wavering (Ro 14:23), that is God's righteousness, thus, categorically, not a righteousness of my own, thus "fine linen bright and clean", not "filthy rags", grace, not works, thus the complaint is just another in a long line of baseless empty objections.

This also handily explains why there is "no condemnation" for those in Christ (Ro 8:1), but why the sinning Christian (the one who doesn't walk in God's righteousness by faith) is "condemned" (Ro 14:23) : remaining "in Christ" requires obeying God's commands (i. believe, and ii. walk in love (Jn 15; 1 Jn 3:23,24)), but the believer in Ro 14:23 is sinning, so he's not remaining "in Christ", in Whom "there is no condemnation".

Note : I'm not presenting these arguments as someone who "has it all together", but as someone who has looked for a coherent message from Scripture, because I understand that only when I understand what is being asked can I fulfill my end of the bargain--because when the pressure is on, collapse is inevitable without a rock solid foundation.

To me the fine linen bright and clean is the fruit of the Spirit. In Romans 7 …you are made free from being called the adulterous woman, made free from The Law of Jealousies by the body of Christ, to bear fruit unto God. Where you’ve been the adulterous woman. For we know He is a Jealous God, but He has given His Son so that you be made free from the law of jealousies— For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 2 Corinthians 11: 2

The woman is saved through childbearing, (delivered of God off her Fruit): made free (granted unto her) to bear “children” unto God: (how many times did Paul call them his children through the gospel?) Peace, love, mercy, forgiveness, grace, long-suffering…brotherly-kindness…toward one another. The enmity taken out of the way(in Christ), removed.

2 Timothy 2:20-22 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. [21] If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. [22] Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Maybe none of that helps but mostly I’m working it out in my own mind. There is an angst. Countless views that will tell you this and tell you that. To me there is made free “to bear fruit unto God.” There is no disputing it….who says Faith has no works? When those works are of God? But what that is said to be bearing is the question. More flesh? More flesh? Or bear you Spirit? I read this yesterday …. “severed” from Christ is a graphic mental image.
Galatians 5:1-4 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. [2] Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. [3] I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. [4] You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

 

[GodsGrace]

First off. I follow no man. If your going to try to put me under a doctrine then stop for you will never hear a word I say past you own preconceived notion

That what Paul said. I repeated his words

For it is grace we have been saved

Was Paul wrong?

No it is not if grace was irreparable all would be saved for god died for the whole world. And is willing that no one should perish

See your reading me through doctrinal eyes trying to prove something that is not true about me and in turn getting it all wrong

This would only be true if you stopped there. U did not

For it is by grace we have been saved (a completed action) through faith

Only those who reply chose to receive gods gift are saved. By the grace God offers to everyone

Again that’s what Paul said

For it is by grace we have been saved THROUGH FAITH

Faith is trust. The defenition of biblical faith is a confidence a trust it’s not mere belief as James spoke about in James 2

You don’t. And I never said otherwise

No I never said this. Why do you assume I think otherwise?

If your trying to earn salvation by works it’s filthy rags. Do you really want me to explain it again?

Yes who is we? Those who were saved BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH NOT WORKS

The. Why do you do it?

There is only one way

The middle way

Not licentiousness or easy believism and not by legalism or religion

Many believe but then add works. They are las
Lost as the licentious person who thinks they just say some silly prayer.

They are both lost because both trust self and not god

Are you going to try to understand what I believe or keep assuming you know And remain blind to what I actually believe

No rebuttal as to the Isaiah 64 verse regarding filthy rags.
It's OK.
It's because you don't understand it and cannot refute what I explained.

You should read the entire bible again....
I think it would help you out.

 

[GodsGrace]

To me the fine linen bright and clean is the fruit of the Spirit. In Romans 7 …you are made free from being called the adulterous woman, made free from The Law of Jealousies by the body of Christ, to bear fruit unto God. Where you’ve been the adulterous woman. For we know He is a Jealous God, but He has given His Son so that you be made free from the law of jealousies— For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 2 Corinthians 11: 2

The woman is saved through childbearing, (delivered of God off her Fruit): made free (granted unto her) to bear “children” unto God: (how many times did Paul call them his children through the gospel?) Peace, love, mercy, forgiveness, grace, long-suffering…brotherly-kindness…toward one another. The enmity taken out of the way(in Christ), removed.

2 Timothy 2:20-22 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. [21] If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. [22] Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Maybe none of that helps but mostly I’m working it out in my own mind. There is an angst. Countless views that will tell you this and tell you that. To me there is made free “to bear fruit unto God.” There is no disputing it….who says Faith has no works? When those works are of God? But what that is said to be bearing is the question. More flesh? More flesh? Or bear you Spirit? I read this yesterday …. “severed” from Christ is a graphic mental image.
Galatians 5:1-4 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. [2] Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. [3] I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. [4] You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

H Victory....
No Christian is under THE LAW.

We are all under the New Covenant.
Could you read my post no. 3 regarding filthy rags and see what you think of it.
I maintain it is one of the most misunderstood verses in the bible.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No rebuttal as to the Isaiah 64 verse regarding filthy rags.
It's OK.
It's because you don't understand it and cannot refute what I explained.

You should read the entire bible again....
I think it would help you out.

See @Wynona this is how you do not discuss things. You are so set in your doctrine you can’t hear a word the other says.

 

[GracePeace]

H Victory....
No Christian is under THE LAW.

We are all under the New Covenant.
Could you read my post no. 3 regarding filthy rags and see what you think of it.
I maintain it is one of the most misunderstood verses in the bible.

I was aware of its common usage being disputed, but I used it bc it is often used against me, and I believe demonstrating the categoric distinction between the two righteousnesses will help resolve the issue.

 

[Wynona]

See @Wynona this is how you do not discuss things. You are so set in your doctrine you can’t hear a word the other says.

Ive been prickly in the past myself. I definitely took my frustration at others in my past out on people with similar beliefs at times.

But having those prickly posts aimed at me became opportunities to slow down, pray, learn meekness.

We respond to harshness with our own 99 percent of the time. This is normal. But I want to follow the Lord's call, so I have to learn how to respond in a way that leaves room for God to judge.

It's not easy. Its almost excruciating at times. So try to be patient when your opponents take a tone you don't like. Ive done it so many times. Treat them the way you wish to be treated, even if they don't return the favor. It glorifies Jesus when we do it that way.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Ive been prickly in the past myself. I definitely took my frustration at others in my past out on people with similar beliefs at times.

But having those prickly posts aimed at me became opportunities to slow down, pray, learn meekness.

We respond to harshness with our own 99 percent of the time. This is normal. But I want to follow the Lord's call, so I have to learn how to respond in a way that leaves room for God to judge.

It's not easy. Its almost excruciating at times. So try to be patient when your opponents take a tone you don't like. Ive done it so many times. Treat them the way you wish to be treated, even if they don't return the favor. It glorifies Jesus when we do it that way.

It’s funny. I just have to laugh

This person swears I am Calvinist because I believe eternal security and no matter what I say she looks at me through that lense

In another thead I have a Calvinist insisting I am Arminian because I have the audacity to see we have free will and are saved by grace though faith

I believe that’s why so many of these threads get out of hand

 

[GodsGrace]

See @Wynona this is how you do not discuss things. You are so set in your doctrine you can’t hear a word the other says.

Are you speaking to @Wynona or to me??
I try to be very respectful when I post to persons.
If I say something, it's meant in the most honest way.

I think you should reread the entire bible....
Maybe you'll come to understand something different.

The fact that you don't really grasp Isaiah 64:5 is not anything new.
Many use this verse but INCORRECTLY!

 

[GodsGrace]

It’s funny. I just have to laugh

This person swears I am Calvinist because I believe eternal security and no matter what I say she looks at me through that lense

In another thead I have a Calvinist insisting I am Arminian because I have the audacity to see we have free will and are saved by grace though faith

I believe that’s why so many of these threads get out of hand

This thread is not out of hand because YOU say so.

If you post Calvinist views, then I'm going to bring your attention to it.
You can agree or disagree, but if that's what you do, you will be called out on it.


@Wynona

 

[GracePeace]

This thread is not out of hand because YOU say so.

If you post Calvinist views, then I'm going to bring your attention to it.
You can agree or disagree, but if that's what you do, you will be called out on it.


@Wynona

It's better not to interact with that user, in my experience--it never leads anywhere good.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

H Victory....
No Christian is under THE LAW.

We are all under the New Covenant.
Could you read my post no. 3 regarding filthy rags and see what you think of it.
I maintain it is one of the most misunderstood verses in the bible.

I read it. If I understood you correctly the question is since God desires good things and good fruit…why then would God be angry to call our good works “filthy rags”. Seems impossible for His being angry over our “good works” so then …those who interrupt that passage to mean what it says “that our good works are filthy rags” misinterpreted it? Correct?

This is only my opinion. It’s from living and breathing in this world. There are good works that makes a person high-minded and drunk on themselves…these works are not really about the other person (even though we convince ourselves they are), but to build ourself up. It’s in our nature. False facades that deceive. Take a man who beats his wife yet he does the kind things also to make up for the beatings. In his mind …he doesn’t acknowledge the beatings but only sees “his good works” deceiving himself to say she is wrong, that she has no right to speak up for he does “good”. She could say “your good works are filthy rags.” Because they are ….deceptive to oppress another.

Maybe none of that make sense but it’s all to say I think it’s interpreted correctly that our works are filthy rags but its those works we use to deceive ourselves by…which God wants to free us from deception. Same as when He told them He was sick of their sacrifices …because their hearts were far from Him. Although they were offering Him sacrifices.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Are you speaking to @Wynona or to me??
I try to be very respectful when I post to persons.
If I say something, it's meant in the most honest way.

I think you should reread the entire bible....
Maybe you'll come to understand something different.

The fact that you don't really grasp Isaiah 64:5 is not anything new.
Many use this verse but INCORRECTLY!

I actually was showing her how we should not respond. Like the way you respond to me.

see here.. You just attack and accuse. No substance. You do not even know what I believe.

But go right on ahead no sweat off my back

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This thread is not out of hand because YOU say so.

If you post Calvinist views, then I'm going to bring your attention to it.
You can agree or disagree, but if that's what you do, you will be called out on it.


@Wynona

lol

But your talking to me, not to calvin

Your looking through a calvinist lease, thats why you are unable to hear a word i say.

Your fight is with calvin, not me, When you’re ready to discuss the word. And not calvin or arminian theology. Let me know

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It's better not to interact with that user, in my experience--it never leads anywhere good.

Well no. If you’re going to falsly accuse me, or attack me like you both have done. It won’t end well. Because i will call you out for it

I am sure you would do the same,

 

[GracePeace]

I read it. If I understood you correctly the question is since God desires good things and good fruit…why then would God be angry to call our good works “filthy rags”. Seems impossible for His being angry over our “good works” so then …those who interrupt that passage to mean what it says “that our good works are filthy rags” misinterpreted it? Correct?

This is only my opinion. It’s from living and breathing in this world. There are good works that makes a person high-minded and drunk on themselves…these works are not really about the other person (even though we convince ourselves they are), but to build ourself up. It’s in our nature. False facades that deceive. Take a man who beats his wife yet he does the kind things also to make up for the beatings. In his mind …he doesn’t acknowledge the beatings but only sees “his good works” deceiving himself to say she is wrong, that she has no right to speak up for he does “good”. She could say “your good works are filthy rags.” Because they are ….deceptive to oppress another.

Maybe none of that make sense but it’s all to say I think it’s interpreted correctly that our works are filthy rags but its those works we use to deceive ourselves by…which God wants to free us from deception. Same as when He told them He was sick of their sacrifices …because their hearts were far from Him. Although they were offering Him sacrifices.

To clarify, some users want to deny Ro 2 and Ja 2, which teach justification by walking in faith, saying it is salvation by works/a righteousness of my own, but they fail to see there is another category of righteousness, God's righteousness, which is when we walk by faith (Ro 1:17), that doesn't fall under the category of "a righteousness of my own"--and the one who does not walk in God's righteousness, by not walking in what he is fully persuaded is correct with thanks (Ro 14:5,6), "is condemned" (Ro 14:23), so how is that contrary to being justified by walking in faith?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

To clarify, some users want to deny Ro 2 and Ja 2, which teach justification by walking in faith, saying it is salvation by works/a righteousness of my own, but they fail to see there is another category of righteousness, God's righteousness, which is when we walk by faith (Ro 1:17), that doesn't fall under the category of "a righteousness of my own"--and the one who does not walk in God's righteousness, by not walking in what he is fully persuaded is correct with thanks (Ro 14:5,6), "is condemned" (Ro 14:23), so how is that contrary to being justified by walking in faith?

I thought you were only asking about the “filthy rags” verse? Where does it fit?