Fear Rules Christianity - True or False?

[St. SteVen]

No it doesnt because it was never meant to be repeated and God never has

Once again. You have no proof to back up your bold claims.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

I told you dont rope me into that lie. Its not fear to hate and despise the works of demons. Dont ever twist my words around liar

 

[TheHC]

I've gone back and forth on that. Now, I don't believe so. Rather who divinators claim is the dead are actually demons.

Yes, I agree with you on this. The Bible states @ Ecclesiastes 9:5, “the dead know nothing at all.”

So if demons can imposter the dead, pretend to be them….. why couldn’t they pretend to be Jesus?

Remember Jesus’ prophecy at Matthew 7:21-23…. These ones saying “Lord, Lord” to Jesus, what were they doing? “Powerful works”, even thinking they were “expelling demons”! And thought they were doing it In Jesus’ name! But Jesus says, “Away from Me, you evildoers!”

So if they had this power, obviously it was without Jesus (or His Father) helping them. Where were / are they getting this power from?

Such activities would be easy to pull off, by experienced, invisible deceivers!

2 Corinthians 11:13-15; Revelation 12:9; 1 John 5:19.


Have a good day, my cousin.

 

[TheHC]

I agree.
That wasn't a rebuttal, right?

No.

(I don’t think so. I didn’t mean it to be.)

You are so laid-back, & easygoing.

Have you ever had a regular weekly Bible discussion / study with Jehovah’s Witnesses? It could be only 10 to 15 minutes each week (or 1 hour, or whatever’s convenient).

It could even be over the phone, if necessary.

(Back in ‘85, when my wife was in California (before I’d ever met her), she loved what she was learning from the Bible so much, that she wanted 3 studies a week, and they were up to 2 hrs. each time!! She was a fanatic! Lol.)

It is always free, with no obligation.

 

[TheHC]

It might depend on the context. Certainly Moses and Elijah spoke with Jesus in the Transfiguration.
Some argue that it was a vision, not a real visitation. But why did Peter offer to build shelters for a vision?

Obviously, seeking contact with the dead through occult means is wrong. But...

I speak to my relatives from time to time. That's speak TO, not speak WITH.
Since we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses, I believe they can hear me.

[

Remember, what did Jesus tell His disciples afterward? “Tell the vision to no one.” — Matthew 17:9

 

[St. SteVen]

Have you ever had a regular weekly Bible discussion / study with Jehovah’s Witnesses?

No, I have not.
I imagine you are a JW, or you wouldn't be promoting it?
But I could be wrong.

It's pushing the limits to be in a small group at my own church.
I have trouble containing my outrageous questions.
And I seem to be more interested in the questions than the answers.

Furthermore, I don't want to be fixed. I'm mature in my faith.
I continue to grow at my own pace and in my chosen direction.
What church folks have to share seldom excites me. Zzzz...

JW doctrine is WAY too conservative for me.
I have talked to them before. I don't shun them.

On a previous forum I was pretty close with one.
We had some interesting banter.
I think I was frustrating him. Poor fellow.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Remember, what did Jesus tell His disciples afterward? “Tell the vision to no one.” — Matthew 17:9

Yes.
The translation is in question. Vision = what you saw ???
The narrative doesn't lend itself to a vision . IMHO
Especially the bit about asking Jesus if he could build three shelters.
But... I suppose it doesn't matter.

Moses and Elijah were talking to Jesus. Who's vision was that?

This might be a good topic to launch.
The story appears in all three Synoptic Gospels.

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[St. SteVen]

New topic.

Was the Transfiguration a vision, or an actual appearance of Moses and Elijah?

I seem to stand alone in my position that it probably wasn't a vision. Even though some of our Bible translations use the word in the passage. The controversy seems to surround whether we can speak to the dead. Most say, "No." therefore it had to be a vision. Jesus was with the disciples for...

www.christianityboard.com

[ cc; @TheHC

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

Recently I challenged a beloved forum member to visit this website.
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St. SteVen said

Buddha's Miracles Manifest - Sravasti Abbey - A Buddhist Monastery​

The Day of Miracles commemorates the time Buddha displayed his miraculous powers for 15 days. Many thousands of minds were transformed. Here's the story.

sravastiabbey.org

If I was a betting man (I'm not) I would say that you probably wouldn't dare to read it.
Exceedingly few on this forum will. Because... fear rules Christianity.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I responded with this:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here was the response I got, which I thought was great.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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But for the most part, I think fear rules Christianity.

I didn't get a straight answer to my question, but I'm guessing that
@Taken did NOT view the link about the miracles of Buddha.

Why?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I think it is because fear rules Christianity. What are we so afraid of?

Hell.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Many of us were raised to believe that:
Belief = no questions asked = heaven
Unbelief = questions asked = hell

We are programmed to believe that ANY question = hell
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Be afraid, be VERY afraid.

Few Christians would dare to read an account of Buddha's miracles.

Why?

[

Does fear rule Christianity? First, Christianity is a huge group of people about whom to generalize. Second, I'm a Christian; fear does not rule me; Jesus does. Third, Buddha was not a true believer in the 3-in-1 God of the Bible and therefore not worth quoting or listening to. A former Buddhist monk told me that Buddhists do good, but they don't ask why they should do it. Fourth, the existence of hell makes no difference in my life, because Jesus said that no one (including Satan) will be able to grab me out of his grasp.

 

[St. SteVen]

Does fear rule Christianity? First, Christianity is a huge group of people about whom to generalize. Second, I'm a Christian; fear does not rule me; Jesus does. Third, Buddha was not a true believer in the 3-in-1 God of the Bible and therefore not worth quoting or listening to. A former Buddhist monk told me that Buddhists do good, but they don't ask why they should do it. Fourth, the existence of hell makes no difference in my life, because Jesus said that no one (including Satan) will be able to grab me out of his grasp.

Do you think Buddhists may be described in this scripture?

Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law,
they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts,
their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts
sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God judges
people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

[

 

[Lambano]

Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law,
they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts,
their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts
sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God judges
people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

The theologians argue about the identity of this group of Gentiles. The consensus is that it refers to Gentile Christians, since Torah requires worshipping YHWH alone.

In light of Jesus's Sheep and Goat parable, I'm not completely convinced the consensus view is correct.

 

[St. SteVen]

The theologians argue about the identity of this group of Gentiles. The consensus is that it refers to Gentile Christians, since Torah requires worshipping YHWH alone.

In light of Jesus's Sheep and Goat sermon, I'm not completely convinced the consensus view is correct.

Agree. This specifically says "Gentiles, who do not have the law".
Certainly Gentile Christians had the law available to them.
The gospel was preached to them from Torah and the Prophets.
Acts chapter fifteen raised the whole issue of gentiles and the law.

Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law,
they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts,
their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts
sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God judges
people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

[

 

[Lambano]

Agree. This specifically says "Gentiles, who do not have the law".
Certainly Gentile Christians had the law available to them.

I don't think that captures the sociological aspect of Paul's thinking. In Paul's world, you're either Jewish, you're God's chosen people, and God has given you the gift of Torah, or you're Goyim and you don't have Torah and you have a lot of disgusting practices. Us vs. Them. Anywhere else you that?

Some of the material from my Bible Study classes noted that the solution agreed to at the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 mirrors what our Jewish cousins call the "Noahide Laws" for what was called "God-fearing Gentiles". You don't have to fully keep Torah, but no idols (i.e. no other gods), no bloodshed, and for God's sake (literally), knock it off with the sexual immorality; you Goyim are disgusting about that. A group known as Proselytes who are mentioned in the Bible accept full Torah and effectively became Jews, even if the 23-and-Me DNA tests said otherwise. Well, maybe second-class Jews. Ancestry is important. So, was Paul talking about the God-Fearers? Or moral worshippers of the traditional Roman and Greek pantheon?

 

[Episkopos]

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

We begin by fearing the Lord, because we are living from the outer man. Outer man fear. But as we enter into Christ we get the comfort of the Spirit...the love, peace and joy that come with experiencing eternal life.

Do we stop fearing? No. As long as the outer man is alive and kicking we need the fear of God to keep us on the right path.

The early church walked in BOTH the fear of God AND the comfort of the Holy Spirit.

Then the churches throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria had rest and were edified, and, walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied. Acts 9:31

 

[St. SteVen]

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

We begin by fearing the Lord, because we are living from the outer man. Outer man fear. But as we enter into Christ we get the comfort of the Spirit...the love, peace and joy that come with experiencing eternal life.

Do we stop fearing? No. As long as the outer man is alive and kicking we need the fear of God to keep us on the right path.

The early church walked in BOTH the fear of God AND the comfort of the Holy Spirit.

Then the churches throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria had rest and were edified, and, walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied. Acts 9:31

Thank for your post. I always appreciate your input.

I really struggle with this "fear of the Lord" issue.
Reason being, some (many perhaps) ended up in the church because they didn't want to be incinerated in the afterlife.

This type of fear seems to be a response to spiritual extortion in my POV.
Which you have probably heard me say before.

How do you address that aspect?

[

 

[St. SteVen]

I don't think that captures the sociological aspect of Paul's thinking. In Paul's world, you're either Jewish, you're God's chosen people, and God has given you the gift of Torah, or you're Goyim and you don't have Torah and you have a lot of disgusting practices. Us vs. Them. Anywhere else you that?

Some context might help. Here are the previous two verses followed by the scripture in question.
Note that verses 14-15 are a parenthetical statement.

Romans 2:12-13 NIV
All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law,
and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight,
but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law,
they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts,
their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts
sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God judges
people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

New topic.

Should you force your children to attend church against their will?

[

 

[Lambano]

Some context might help. Here are the previous two verses followed by the scripture in question.
Note that verses 14-15 are a parenthetical statement.

Romans 2:12-13 NIV
All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law,
and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight,
but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Right. Another group of theologians (no doubt from Reform school) take the position that since Paul will show in the next chapter that

10 As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
(Romans 3:10-12)

So, according to these Bible scholars, the group of righteous Gentiles who keep Torah spoken of in Chapter 2 is ultimately an empty set, a hypothetical-only category that does not exist in the real world.

 

[St. SteVen]

Right. Another group of theologians (no doubt from Reform school) take the position that since Paul will show in the next chapter that

10 As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
(Romans 3:10-12)

So, according to these Bible scholars, the group of righteous Gentiles who keep Torah spoken of in Chapter 2 is ultimately an empty set, a hypothetical-only category that does not exist in the real world.

Good point.
Fortunately, Paul is quoting Psalms 14:1-3; 53:1-3; Eccles. 7:20
to make a point which he undoes in the next verses.

But we need to take great care with definitions at this point. IMHO
Romans 2:12-13 is in reference to God's law of human conscience.
Whereas this scripture below is in reference to "the law" which God gave
to the Israelites alone through Moses. (and the books of the Law and the Prophets)

Romans 3:19-21 NIV
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law,
so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law;
rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known,
to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

[

 

[Lambano]

But we need to take great care with definitions at this point. IMHO
Romans 2:12-13 is in reference to God's law of human conscience.
Whereas this scripture below is in reference to "the law" which God gave
to the Israelites alone through Moses. (and the books of the Law and the Prophets)

I agree being VERY careful here. I would be tempted to tag @Johann here for his Greek expertise and input from the commentaries.

Verse 12 in the overall context of Gentiles and Jews, "the law" clearly refers to Torah. Gentiles without Torah will perish without Torah; Jews who have Torah will be judged by Torah.

Verse 13 MAY refer to a "law of human conscience" (or "the law behind the Law". that undergirds Torah.

Verse 14 clearly refers to Torah 3 times, with "the law unto themselves" being unique.

Verse 15, the "requirements of the law" PROBABLY refers to Torah, but points to

12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.