Fear Rules Christianity - True or False?

[Wrangler]

As I have mentioned repeatedly Wrangler, if God’s miracles and the devil’s fake ones were operating in the world together, who would be able to tell the difference?

You asked and I've answered repeatedly. Here, your IDOL of knowledge fails you for we KNOW God.


Father, ... this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
John 17:1-3

 

[Wrangler]

Whatever benefit comes out of his tricks is for himself because he is taking credit in disguise

You are in danger of blasphemy, denying the good works of God the Father.

PURE GOOD.
PURE EVIL.
A smidgeon of discernment and one can know one from the other.

 

[Wrangler]

His signs and wonders were foretold....

Appeal to Strawman. No one is denying the Adversary is the god of this world. It is you who are denying God has and does interject miracles of his own in this world.

You take us being foretold to mean "AND all signs and wonders are now from the evil one" when that is not at all what Scripture says.

 

[Wrangler]

1 Peter 5:8...
“Keep your senses, be watchful! Your adversary, the Devil, walks about like a roaring lion, seeking to devour someone.” Good advice there....who is this roaring lion seeking to devour? Anyone he can fool.

He didn't fool Christ and Christ is in me.

 

[Wrangler]

Read 2 Thess 1:9-12 in the post above....Paul said the gifts would cease

Paul said no such thing! Odd for you to read things that aren't there.

 

[Wrangler]

you speak of the miracles of the first century and no one can doubt them....we are speaking about modern day miracles and who will be attracted by them?

The same people as always, those who seek God will be attracted to miracles.

 

[Wrangler]

And that prophesy was fulfilled in the first century.

That verse says NOTHING about 1st century but the end times, which we are in. Again, you are just reading that 1st century deadline into Scripture.

 

[MA2444]

As usual your hair trigger is leading you to false accusations....there was no “contempt” intended...just quotation marks to highlight the subject matter or a pertinent scripture. You are apparently easily irritated by your own evaluation of what you thought I meant, not necessarily what was actually said.

As I have mentioned repeatedly Wrangler, if God’s miracles and the devil’s fake ones were operating in the world together, who would be able to tell the difference? The “angel of light” trick works so well for the devil as he masquerades as something he is not. Whatever benefit comes out of his tricks is for himself because he is taking credit in disguise....laughing at those he has deceived.
People imagine that they are praising the true God when he is nothing but a pathetic imitator. His signs and wonders were foretold....

2 Thess 2:9-12...
“But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deceptive influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie,12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.”

There it is...plain as day....”powerful works”...”lying signs and wonders”....and “every unrighteousness deception” for whom?.....“Those who are perishing”......Why are they to perish Wrangler? Because God allows their disobedient hearts to accept the lies as truth.....they want to hold on to their errors because they have “no love for the truth”.....the truth is unacceptable to them....they like the lies better....but it is a delusion...a deception.

Why does God allow this deception? Because people like the idea that God is performing miracles for them. Satan knows that we humans are easy to fool......lack of Bible knowledge in us, is his best weapon. No one can be fooled by the devil unless God permits them to. Do you understand why? ‘No one comes to the son without an invitation from his Father’. (John 6:65) That makes our destiny dependant on how well we follow the teachings Jesus gave us, and those of the apostles who were taught by him also convey his same message.

1 Peter 5:8...
“Keep your senses, be watchful! Your adversary, the Devil, walks about like a roaring lion, seeking to devour someone.” Good advice there....who is this roaring lion seeking to devour? Anyone he can fool.

The only “miracle” the devil cannot perform is raising the dead.....but he could give someone narcolepsy and pretend to raise them. He is a deceiver after all...and a good one. Do you never contemplate these things? Who is running this show? (1 John 5:19)

Wow....an explanation based on Scripture is “deconstruction” is it? We are not supposed to use Scripture to provide the basis for our beliefs? I love the way you always fall back on your own explanations as if they somehow dismiss all the Scriptural evidence that is presented to you. No one can prove you wrong.....except one. You will have to offer your excuses to him, like we all do.

Let's not go too fast here. Your scripture you posted doesnt seem to be talking about the Miracles ceasing with the Apostles. It alks about deception but what is the nexus to the miracles have ceased?

 

[MA2444]

Paul wrote at 1 Cor 13:8-13....
“Love never fails. But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially, 10 but when what is complete comes, what is partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child. 12 For now we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face-to-face. At present I know partially, but then I will know accurately, just as I am accurately known. 13 Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love.”

See that little word “now”? This meant that the miracles no longer formed the basis for bringing people to the Christian Faith.....NOW, (or from then on) the more mature aspects of the Faith were to be emphasised.
“Faith, hope and love” would form the basis for being, or becoming a Christian....knowledge of the Scriptures would now create strong faith in Jesus as the Christ, and serve as a basis for serving the same God that he did.

It never says Miracles speciffically. So are you saying that anyone who ever had a healing ministry was lying? A.A. Allen? Smith Wigglesworth? All frauds? All Deceived?

I dont buy that.

Who healed my hip when it was dislocated? I prayed to the Lord Jesus to heal it. Not the enemy! Did the Lord Jesus give me a serpent when I asked for a fish?

 

[Aunty Jane]

I dont believe in Cessationism.. That the miracles cesaed with the Apostles. If that were true, then A.A. Allen was decived and never healed anyone? Smith Wigglesworth deceived? Anyone who has ever had a healing ministry was deceived?

There was no such thing as a “healing ministry” among believers in the first century, MA 444. The miracles were performed on unbelievers to bring them to Christ....after the death and resurrection of Jesus, others carried on his work until the completion of the writings that would eventuate in what some call “the New Testament”....which is quite misleading because “ALL Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, setting things straight and for disciplining” those who want to push an alternate view to the ones held by Jesus’ apostles. (2 Tim 3:16-17) Paul spoke of this as something “complete” that they were awaiting, connected to Christ’s return. (1 Cor 13:11-12)

I dont buy it. I'm not saying that there are no fakes in healing ministries, I'm saying...They all werent lying or deceived.

It’s not a matter of whether we “buy it” or not, but whether what we want to believe what is not true.
Why would God allow his own miracles to compete with his enemy’s? That would only create more confusion, which by now you hopefully can see that the hopelessly divided “church” system is one confused mess. Would God wish to confuse them even more?

There's been too many of them and many healing testimonies are documented by the doctors. Someone wracked with cancer or tumors...the night before the operation the patirnt prays for healing. The next day the cat scan cant find any trace of cancer or tumors. They say...We cant explain it.

You think the devil runs out of steam? He doesn’t grow tired of deceiving people....he is bouyed by the fact that he can succeed with so many.....all his fakes, when they are believed, are notches on his belt, so to speak. If he made himself out to be the bad guy that he is...who would do his bidding? By pretending to be what he is not, he can rope in the gullible child-like ones who need to see miracles. We can be taken away by emotions instead of solid Bible knowledge, which some assume that they can lay aside because their own knowledge is scanty.
The truth is sometimes so confronting that we want to reject it.....it doesn’t make it false, however.

No it is not cessationism. It is something else.
White picket fence syndrome in the Christian Community? I dunno.

You have already discerned that the church system is fraught with many divisions that are not ever going to agree or unite. We have a church here in Australia called “The Uniting Church” which is an amalgamation of three smaller denominations that were struggling to stay in existence, so they pulled themselves together as one church. Their name however is a true description of their belief systems. “Uniting” was the aim, but “United” they never were, are still aren’t. Yet it is now Australia's third-largest Christian denomination, behind the Catholic and the Anglican Churches. Why? Because there is no set criteria on beliefs. They can pretty much believe what they wish, especially about the LGBTQ issue.

This is from their website....

Uniting Network NSW/ACT
welcoming and celebrating
lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender,
intersex and queer (LGBTIQ) people
in the Uniting Church in Australia.

So if you want to embrace the LGBTQ agenda...feel free to join this one....


Where do Christendom’s divisions fall in line with Paul’s statement at 1 Cor 1:10?
There can be “no divisions” in genuine Christianity....there is one truth, believed by all. So how does that work in Christendom?

What has to happen, is what took place in the first century with Jesus’ first appearance......people had to decide whether to stay with their old broken religious system whom Jesus exposed as apostate....or whether they would risk the ostracism and hatred directed to those considered heretics by the misled Jewish majority. There had to be courage in their conviction. And the same situation was to again challenge God’s worshippers when Christ was to return, because the devil was going to do it all again.....substitute the original with a counterfeit, and have the true disciples look like trouble making heretics. But who were the real heretics? Who are they today?

Some pretend that these divisions don’t bother them by adopting a “non-denominational” approach, but that simply means that the divisions remain...they just don’t talk about them.

Where are you in all of that MA 2444?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Here we go with the endless list of one liners.....do you have the concentration span of a goldfish?
Can you not have an in depth discussion about anything?

You asked and I've answered repeatedly. Here, your IDOL of knowledge fails you for we KNOW God.


Father, ... this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
John 17:1-3

And I would challenge you to tell me where Christ came from, and what he was to do in offering his life for us...to explain the mechanics of redemption in Jewish understanding, and to tell me what God’s Kingdom is....and what it will do for the redeemed human race.....without reference to Scripture. Without Scripture how would we ever get to know the truth? Can it be from the multitudes who profess to know it, but cannot come to any agreement with others who claim the same things? Is that even logical? Where is God in all of that?

Do you decry Scripture because it’s too truthful for you? If you can’t explain something within your own criteria, it is treated as something foreign from the ‘idol of Bible Knowledge’......say what?

Are you afraid of Bible knowledge Wrangler? It seems so.....you fight like a trapped animal when you are confronted with an uncomfortable truth. Does your own limited knowledge fail you in an in depth discussion? Is that why you come out swinging? You double down hard.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You are in danger of blasphemy, denying the good works of God the Father.

PURE GOOD.
PURE EVIL.
A smidgeon of discernment and one can know one from the other.

Am I? Or am I merely relaying what is foretold in the Bible....the devil does miracles too.....
“A smidgeon of discernment” doesn’t replace years of deep Bible study.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Appeal to Strawman. No one is denying the Adversary is the god of this world. It is you who are denying God has and does interject miracles of his own in this world.

You take us being foretold to mean "AND all signs and wonders are now from the evil one" when that is not at all what Scripture says.

Again, logically why would God compete with his adversary and create confusion among his worshippers?

He withdrew the miracles so that what is presented as such today, will readily be identified with his enemy. It would not performed at random by a couple of miracles in a church somewhere. Jesus performed thousands of miracles in his short ministry.....if it was the same today, it would be all over the news, and unbelievers would be lined up at every church wanting to be healed. I don’t think you have any idea of the scale of what he did. The sad fact is that healing ministries are a fraud and no one reports the level of failure. Jesus had no failures.

 

[Berean]

How then do we evaluate the source of a miracle?
Does God only do miracles within the confines of Christianity, or perhaps none at all?

Miracles in the first century were for a purpose. Our Lord performed miracles to show that he was indeed the Messiah in the flesh. The Apostle Paul said such "gifts" would be done away with. 1 Cor. 13:8-11.

 

[Aunty Jane]

He didn't fool Christ and Christ is in me.

That is not for me to decide.....that is for Christ to reveal to you.

Paul said no such thing! Odd for you to read things that aren't there.

I read what is there and I see that “Faith, Hope and love” were to remain...not the traits of a spiritual baby.
There are no miracles after the apostolic period. And for good reason. They were for a time and a reason.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The same people as always, those who seek God will be attracted to miracles.

And what if the miracles lead them to Roman Catholicism and to the worship of Mary and idols? What then?

That verse says NOTHING about 1st century but the end times, which we are in. Again, you are just reading that 1st century deadline into Scripture.

It was a dual prophesy because it pertained to the end of both systems of worship....they mirrored one another, with the devil accomplishing the same in both.
Why was the Temple destroyed and never rebuilt? Since Jesus and his elect are Priests, at what Temple are they to serve? On what alter was Jesus sacrificed?

What say you Wrangler?

 

[St. SteVen]

Miracles in the first century were for a purpose. Our Lord performed miracles to show that he was indeed the Messiah in the flesh. The Apostle Paul said such "gifts" would be done away with. 1 Cor. 13:8-11.

Your position is Cessationism. I am a Continuationist.
The gifts are body parts. The church should not be an amputee. IMHO

Cessationism versus Continuationism - The fallacy of "Signs Gifts".

Cessationism claims that the miracle gifts of the Holy Spirit were signs to authenticate the early church. And consequently the miracle gifts disappeared when the Apostles did. Continuationism says that all the gifts were for the church and that all the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still...

www.christianityboard.com

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[Wrangler]

Miracles in the first century were for a purpose. Our Lord performed miracles to show that he was indeed the Messiah in the flesh. The Apostle Paul said such "gifts" would be done away with. 1 Cor. 13:8-11.

Absurd, tortured take on Scripture. Yes, these gifts will stop - at the end of time before Christs return. No, nothing says in the first century,

 

[St. SteVen]

Absurd, tortured take on Scripture. Yes, these gifts will stop - at the end of time before Christs return. No, nothing says in the first century,

I think the Cessationist argument is that the "perfect" that was to come was the completion of the NT canon.
(which wasn't until the 4th century) Oops. Back to the drawing board. - LOL

1 Corinthians 13:9-10 KJV
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

[

 

[Wrangler]

I think the Cessationist argument is

I didn’t know there was such a thing as Cessationism arguments until @Aunty Jane and this thread.

I just shake my head (and dust off my feet). The living God reached out to me. This experience trumps any doctrinal argument.