False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

[The Light]

This idea is wrong, as the signs described for the Day of fiery wrath and the glorious Return do not match.
At the DoL, the moon shines bright red and at the Return, the Moon does not give her light.

Have you ever seen a lunar eclipse? When there is a full lunar eclipse, the moon does not give it light as the earth blocks it. But then the longer light waves such as red and orange bend around the earth and you see a red moon.

So the moon goes dark and then eventually turns red.

Is it not obvious to all, that the Sixth Seal is the next Prophesied event?

The next prophesied event is that the dead in Christ will rise first.

 

[Douggg]

Not a lie at all. You just seem unable to perform basic logic based on the facts of scripture.

Matthew 24:29 says tribulation of those days - and not Great Tribulation of those days - because there will one last vial of God's wrath to be poured out.

Matthew 24:29 is about the sixth seal event which the sign of the Son of Man appears in heaven, Matthew 24:30a.

As a result, the kings of the earth panic and in Revelation 16:13-16 gather their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war on Jesus.

Then, Revelation 16:17 -21 the seventh vial of the Great Tribulation is poured out. The global earthquake and massive hail plague.

After that, Jesus descends to earth coming in great glory and power, Matthew 24:30b, to end the Great Tribulation.

 

[PinSeeker]

I am fully aware of that and have said the same myself. But, the people I'm talking about aren't mistaken. They know what they're doing. In the case of the person I was responding to they said they added nothing to a verse that referenced "great tribulation" by calling it "THE great tribulation". I pointed that out and they still deny doing that. That is a lie.


Yes, they should. But, some here don't seem to know the difference. Do you know which people I'm talking about and what I've seen them say? Other than this one case, you don't. So, how would you know if I'm supposedly automatically accusing them of lying or not? It's clear that some are so attached to their beliefs that they are willing to lie to keep them afloat. I've seen it many times. It's sad, but it's just the way it is for some when it comes to eschatology in particular and maybe a few other Bible topics.


No, it isn't, as I will show.


Now, that is irrelevant. This person was quoting the KJV and saying it referred to "THE great tribulation". It does not. And it's significant as to whether it is or not because there is a clear difference between "great tribulation" generally and "THE great tribulation". If that verse (Rev 7:14) is referring generally to "great tribulation" then we can relate the following verse to it:

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

But, if it's referring to "THE great tribulation" as in a certain event that doesn't apply to all believers throughout time, then we obviously couldn't relate a verse like Acts 14:22 to it.

Bud. I can't help it if you can't put three scriptures together to determine that it is the Great Tribulation of those days.

The Word says immediately after the tribulation of those days. I have shown that the tribulation of those days is the great tribulation.

Then I showed that those events happen at the 6th seal as based on the signs of the sun, moon and stars. If you are unable to draw the proper conclusion based on these FACTS, there's nothing that can be done at this point.

I don't feel like drawing you a diagram as there wouldn't appear to be enough horsepower to warrant the effort. And I forgive you for your misplaced comment.


Exactly. Good.

It is..........

Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


Matthew 24
And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Actually... you are both right. :) My question to both of you is, is there no tribulation prior to this great tribulation just before Jesus comes/returns? :)

Grace and peace to you both.

 

[The Light]

Actually... you are both right. :) My question to both of you is, is there no tribulation prior to this great tribulation just before Jesus comes/returns? :)

Grace and peace to you both.

Sure. But the tribulation we are speaking of is when those came out of great tribulation in Rev 7. The scripture verses that I posted PROVE that it is THE Great Tribulation being discussed.

 

[The Light]

Matthew 24:29 says tribulation of those days - and not Great Tribulation of those days

Goodness.

Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The great tribulation.........such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be..........IS THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS.

- because there will one last vial of God's wrath to be poured out.

Gracious.

The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. As you said vial of Gods wrath.

Tribulation is not the wrath of God.

Matthew 24:29 is about the sixth seal event which the sign of the Son of Man appears in heaven, Matthew 24:30a.

As a result, the kings of the earth panic and in Revelation 16:13-16 gather their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war on Jesus.

Then, Revelation 16:17 -21 the seventh vial of the Great Tribulation is poured out. The global earthquake and massive hail plague.

After that, Jesus descends to earth coming in great glory and power, Matthew 24:30b, to end the Great Tribulation.

The tribulation is over at the 6th seal...............................

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

The trumpets and vials are the wrath of God and have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the tribulation. The tribulation ends at the 6th seal. The 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins.

 

[Douggg]

The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. As you said vial of Gods wrath.

Tribulation is not the wrath of God.

The Great Tribulation includes the seven vials of God's wrath. And the seven trumpet events. And Satan's wrath. And the persecution and martyring of the saints. Starvation. War.

The great tribulation will not be over until Jesus returns to end it.

The trumpets and vials are the wrath of God and have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the tribulation. The tribulation ends at the 6th seal. The 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins.

Define what you are calling "the tribulation" during the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27. And explain what makes "the tribulation" different from the "Great Tribulation".

Do the seven trumpets and seven vials fit under the "tribulation" or under "the Great Tribulation" ?

Is the lion in your screen name image - in tribulation or great tribulation because he has apparently stepped on a thorn and appears to be in a lot of pain?

 

[PinSeeker]

Sure.

Well good. :)

But the tribulation we are speaking of is when those came out of great tribulation in Rev 7. The scripture verses that I posted PROVE that it is THE Great Tribulation being discussed.

But that's not what Revelation 7 is talking about, really, The Light. All the saints of God are in view in Revelation 7, from all time.

There will be a great ramping up of the tribulation of God's people just before Jesus returns.

But the "great tribulation" of Revelation 7 is all tribulation from the beginning of time... or, actually, since the fall of Adam and Eve. Not some period of great tribulation after Jesus has come in secret and removed His church so there could be more/greater tribulation... :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Whether it say Holy Spirit or THE Holy Spirit, it is the same thing.
Whether it says Father, or the Father, its talking about the same thing
whether it says church, or the church, it is talking about the same thing.
It appears you are basing doctrine on a faulty interpretation.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Yeah? So? Why didn't you address anything I said? I said that Revelation 7 references "great tribulation", not "THE great tribulation". Have any thoughts on that?

Have any explanation for why you are adding the word "the" to the text before "great tribulation"?

I pointed out that all of us go through great tribulation and referenced Acts 14:22 which says "we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.". Have any thoughts on that? Clearly, there is more than one sense in which "great tribulation" can be understood.

That's your assumption. Prove it.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Why are there so many liars on this forum? Christians should know better than to lie. Where are you seeing the word "the" before "great tribulation" here:

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


If that's talking about tribulation just before Jesus returns then where did Jesus talk about things related to the destruction of the temple buildings which is what the first question the disciples asked was about?

AHEM,
I just looked up that passage in Revelation 7.
in the Greek Interlinear.
It says ;
"...these came out of THE constriction ,THE Great..."

What superior interpretation can you add to what the bible plainly says?

 

[rebuilder 454]

You are correct. I'm not mistaken. Here is the great tribulation.

Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Here is the signs of the sun, moon and stars immediately after the tribulation of those days.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Here are the same signs at the 6th seal.
Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

You SHOULD be able to conclude that those in Rev 7 that come out of great tribulation come out of THE GREAT TRIBULATION.


Not a lie at all. You just seem unable to perform basic logic based on the facts of scripture.

Yes indeed
I looked it up..rev 7... in the greek.
Says THE GREAT.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Yeah? So? Why didn't you address anything I said? I said that Revelation 7 references "great tribulation", not "THE great tribulation". Have any thoughts on that?

Have any explanation for why you are adding the word "the" to the text before "great tribulation"?

I pointed out that all of us go through great tribulation and referenced Acts 14:22 which says "we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.". Have any thoughts on that? Clearly, there is more than one sense in which "great tribulation" can be understood.

Well, now that we know it really Is "The great" where does that leave your doctrine????
The Greek used "the" twice.
Lets see...now under your example of calling everyone a liar...what would that make your entire doctrine?????

 

[The Light]

But that's not what Revelation 7 is talking about, really, The Light. All the saints of God are in view in Revelation 7, from all time.

The time period of great tribulation being discussed in Rev 7 is great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


There is a group of people that are separated in Revelation 7. They are the ones that came out of great tribulation.

Revelation 7
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

We can see who these people are in Revelation 15

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

There will be a great ramping up of the tribulation of God's people just before Jesus returns.

Of course. This is presented in Matthew 24

Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

But the "great tribulation" of Revelation 7 is all tribulation from the beginning of time... or, actually, since the fall of Adam and Eve.

This is not correct brother. The "great tribulation" of Revelation 7 is NOT from the beginning of time or the fall of Adam. It is from a time
such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Those coming of great tribulation in Revelation 7 are those that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name,

Not some period of great tribulation after Jesus has come in secret and removed His church so there could be more/greater tribulation... :)

Actually, the Church is already in heaven in Revelation 5. Those being discussed in Revelation 7 are of the twelve tribes of Israel as the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. And those that come out of great tribulation are those that had gotten victory over the beast and his mark and the number of his name. They are singing the song of Moses.

There are two raptures. The secret rapture of the Church and then part of Israel will have its blindness removed.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Grace and peace to you.

Thank you, brother. And to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

The time period of great tribulation being discussed in Rev 7 is great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Disagree. I say that just because "great tribulation" is used by Jesus in Matthew 24 and John in Revelation 7 is not sufficient reason to deduce that they are talking about the same thing, the very same time period. I say, as I said before, that yes, there will be great tribulation such as has never been seen, very near to and leading up to the time that Jesus returns. But John's context is a bit different; he's speaking from... well, a forty thousand foot view of history, so to speak... that's what his Revelation is... and in that sense, the whole tribulation from the beginning until Jesus's return is great. I'll say again ~ in reference to your quote of Revelation 7:14 ~ that all the saints ~ all believers from the beginning ~ "will have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." John's context is a bit different.

But, if we disagree on that, that's okay, TL. We can agree to disagree.

There are two raptures. The secret rapture of the Church and then part of Israel will have its blindness removed.

Well, as you know, I very much disagree with this; there is no "rapture" (much less two), no "secret return" (and certainly not two returns), and no "removal" of the Church (at any juncture); there is no need for any of this. I do agree, though, that by the end of this age ~ prior to Jesus's return:

• all of the elect Gentiles will be saved ~ "the fullness of the Gentiles (will) come in" ~ will be brought in to God's Israel
• all of the elect ethnic Jews will be saved ~ the "partial hardening/blindness that has come upon Israel" will be removed/lifted

And in this way, ALL OF ISRAEL will be saved. Both of these things happen ~ are completed ~ prior to the return of Christ. Indeed, the completion of these two things prompts the return of Christ.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Yes, see above.

But if you disagree, that's... okay. :) Disagreement on this point is okay. :) what would not be okay is if we disagreed on if it's going to happen. It really doesn't matter that we disagree on how it's going to happen. :)

Grace and peace to you!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That might very well be your perception.

I just showed you the difference between the KJV and the ES ~ between which there is no difference ~ and the fact that one has 'the' in there (the ESV) and the other doesn't. So just regarding the words, no, that's not a lie. If someone were to say, the King James Version says "the great tribulation," actually quoting it, then that would be a lie. But to what you are saying, the person ~ if they are referring to a version that does have the 'the' in there, is not lying. I still maintain that whether the 'the' is included or not in Revelation 7:14 does not make a difference of any substance.

He was using the KJV which does not have the word "the" there and continued to act as if it was there even after being shown that it's not. That comes across as dishonest to me.

Maybe, but that's their deal. Why should it bother you so much, SI?

Why should my response bother you? This has nothing to do with you.

I think you're being a little too... strident, I guess...

That doesn't matter to me. I honestly don't care about your opinion about this. Thanks, anyway.

Let it go. :) And... you should quit calling people liars.

If I believe they are lying I will say so. Thanks, anyway.

 

[The Light]

Disagree. I say that just because "great tribulation" is used by Jesus in Matthew 24 and John in Revelation 7 is not sufficient reason to deduce that they are talking about the same thing, the very same time period. I say, as I said before, that yes, there will be great tribulation such as has never been seen, very near to and leading up to the time that Jesus returns. But John's context is a bit different; he's speaking from... well, a forty thousand foot view of history, so to speak... that's what his Revelation is... and in that sense, the whole tribulation from the beginning until Jesus's return is great. I'll say again ~ in reference to your quote of Revelation 7:14 ~ that all the saints ~ all believers from the beginning ~ "will have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." John's context is a bit different.

But, if we disagree on that, that's okay, TL. We can agree to disagree.

I understand that you disagree. But you are only disagreeing with what the Word says.

I don't know how to make it any clearer than the past post. However.............

1. Matthew 24 shows us the great tribulation which is a time like no other.
2. Matthew 24 shows us that immediately after the great tribulation, the sun and moon go dark and the stars fall from heaven, and Jesus returns.
3. At the opening of the 6th seal, we see the exact same signs in the sun, moon and stars.
4. We can conclude based on the above that Jesus returns at the 6th seal immediately after the great tribulation.
5. In Rev 7 we see those in white robes come out of the same great tribulation as the harvest has occurred.
6. In Revelation 15 we can see that those that are in heaven that came out of great tribulation are singing the song of Moses.
7. They are identified as those that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name.

That's what the Word says. It's so simple if you just read what the Word says. We don't need to make up anything.

Well, as you know, I very much disagree with this; there is no "rapture" (much less two), no "secret return" (and certainly not two returns), and no "removal" of the Church (at any juncture); there is no need for any of this. I do agree, though, that by the end of this age ~ prior to Jesus's return:

• all of the elect Gentiles will be saved ~ "the fullness of the Gentiles (will) come in" ~ will be brought in to God's Israel
• all of the elect ethnic Jews will be saved ~ the "partial hardening/blindness that has come upon Israel" will be removed/lifted

And in this way, ALL OF ISRAEL will be saved. Both of these things happen ~ are completed ~ prior to the return of Christ. Indeed, the completion of these two things prompts the return of Christ.

Here is the first rapture which is the Church. It is the grain harvest. It will be like the days of Noah, as Noah was in the ark 6 days before the flood. Why would we comfort one another if it was not true?

1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Here is the 2nd rapture. The fruit harvest. Like the days of Lot where the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came. This occurs at the 6th seal.

1 Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

But if you disagree, that's... okay. :) Disagreement on this point is okay. :) what would not be okay is if we disagreed on if it's going to happen. It really doesn't matter that we disagree on how it's going to happen. :)

Grace and peace to you!

It might matter to you as He appears to be coming in an hour that you think not. We are approaching the middle of June. It's very possible that will shake you into reality brother. It's a pleasure talking to you.

All the best to you in your quest for the truth. The time draws near.

 

[PinSeeker]

He was using the KJV which does not have the word "the" there and continued to act as if it was there even after being shown that it's not. That comes across as dishonest to me.

Okay, I understand.

Why should my response bother you? This has nothing to do with you.

"Bothered?" No, not I. I'm just saying Christians should treat other Christians in the manner you did. No need to be so defensive.

I just don't think on this board anybody should be sniping at anybody, as we are all Christians. Yeah, a Christian calling another Christian a liar? I mean, that can possibly be true, but he/she was not purposely bearing false witness. And you know, we are all in Christ, then we are all one, so in that respect, it does actually have... something... to do with me.

That doesn't matter to me. I honestly don't care about your opinion about this.

Fair enough. Just throwin' it out there, my friend. :)

You don't seem to realize at least some sort of problem with the way you interact with people...

If I believe they are lying I will say so.

Okay, again, fair enough, but from a previous statement you yourself made, you acknowledged that he/she was not really lying. And if I think someone here needs to be called on something, then I will do so. Well, I might do so, if I so choose. :)

Thanks, anyway.

Sure. :) Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are correct. I'm not mistaken.

So, you are lying on purpose and not just acting like the text you quoted says "THE great tribulation" instead of "great tribulation"?

Here is the great tribulation.

Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Here is the signs of the sun, moon and stars immediately after the tribulation of those days.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Here are the same signs at the 6th seal.
Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

You SHOULD be able to conclude that those in Rev 7 that come out of great tribulation come out of THE GREAT TRIBULATION.


Not a lie at all. You just seem unable to perform basic logic based on the facts of scripture.

You had quoted this verse:

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

And you were saying this refers to "THE great tribulation". Does this verse say "great tribulation" or "THE great tribulation"? If you think it refers to "THE great tribulation" rather than great tribulation that we all go through (Acts 14:22) then that's your choice, but what does the text actually say? Can you at least acknowledge that it doesn't say "THE great tribulation"?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

"Bothered?" No, not I. I'm just saying Christians should treat other Christians in the manner you did. No need to be so defensive.

I don't need you to try to treat me like I'm your child or something. Please, mind your own business.

I just don't think on this board anybody should be sniping at anybody, as we are all Christians.

Christians can rebuke other Christians if they are in the wrong.

Yeah, a Christian calling another Christian a liar? I mean, that can possibly be true, but he/she was not purposely bearing false witness. And you know, we are all in Christ, then we are all one, so in that respect, it does actually have... something... to do with me.

It's hard to believe he/she wasn't doing it purposely when he/she did it again even after I corrected him/her on it.

You don't seem to realize at least some sort of problem with the way you interact with people...

You are free to ignore me if you don't like my approach.

Okay, again, fair enough, but from a previous statement you yourself made, you acknowledged that he/she was not really lying.

What statement are you referring to here?

And if I think someone here needs to be called on something, then I will do so.

Good for you! As you should.

Well, I might do so, if I so choose.

Sounds great.

Sure. :) Grace and peace to you.

And to you as well.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Actually... you are both right. :) My question to both of you is, is there no tribulation prior to this great tribulation just before Jesus comes/returns? :)

Grace and peace to you both.

Of course there is. There was great tribulation in Jerusalem and Judea around 70 AD when the Roman armies destroyed the city and the temple buildings. And there is a sense in which there is great tribulation for all believers.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.