False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

[The Light]

He comes in power and great glory only one place, and that is with the white horses...after The wrath
The period of wrath has heathens seeing God sitting on His throne.

Then you are saying the Bible is wrong. It's not what I'm saying..........an opinion, it's what the Word of God says. The Word says that Jesus comes in power and glory right after the signs of the sun, moon and stars. Those signs occur at the 6th seal. Therefore, we can conclude, CORRECTLY, that Jesus comes in power and glory at the 6th seal.

When Jesus comes at the 6th seal, IN POWER AND GLORY, he is coming for a harvest. This is the second coming when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. The ones that don't get raptured know they are in deep yogurt. Then the 7th seal is opened, and the wrath of God begins.

Jesus returns at the last part of wrath for Armageddon.

 

[The Light]

It is not a "gap" but 45 days of the kings of the earth gathering their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war on Jesus.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

You stated that after the 6th seal there are 45 days for the armies to gather for Armageddon.

And I showed you with scripture that after the 6th seal Jesus will not return for a year. The day of the Lord is one year. At the end of that year Jesus will return for Armageddon.

At the 6th seal, there is a harvest, the second harvest. Then the marriage supper begins. See the great multitude in heaven in Revelation 19

The Lord has His brides and will not leave heaven to go to war until after 1 year.

Deuteronomy 24
5 When a man hath taken a new wife, he shall not go out to war, neither shall he be charged with any business: but he shall be free at home one year, and shall cheer up his wife which he hath taken.

 

[The Light]

Then I suggest you start including what you mean. i.e..... Yes, Jesus returns at the time of the 6th seal.

Jesus does not return at the time of the 6th seal. Instead, Jesus appears in heaven, as the sign of the Son of Man in heaven.

Jesus returns to this earth in Revelation 19.

Jesus returns and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth AT THE 6TH SEAL. Those taken from the earth are raptured at the 6th seal. Jesus remains in the clouds and does not set His feet on the earth. We have a harvest and there is a great multitude in heaven. This multitude is in heaven for the marriage supper.

Revelation 19
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

1 year after this marriage supper, the armies of heaven leave for Armageddon.

Conclusion. Your 45 day gap is incorrect as has been shown with scripture.

 

[Douggg]

Jesus returns and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth AT THE 6TH SEAL.

My suggestion was not put the phrase in caps, but to make it clear that you mean at the time of the 6th seal.

1 year after this marriage supper, the armies of heaven leave for Armageddon.

You are taking a verse from the old testament aimed at a marriage between a man and woman, for the man to take a time-off from work and direct his attention to his wife's happiness, including have sex often with her (implied). A gap of one year between the sixth event and Armageddon is not in the text of Revelation.

Also, what do you think is taking place here on earth during that one year gap, you have created in your mind?

Also, how do you explain the 45 days between the 1290 days and the 1335 days of Daniel 12:11-12 regarding the abomination of desolation set up ?

 

[ewq1938]

The Word says there is 1 year before Jesus leaves heaven with His armies after the 6th seal.

No, it does not say anything about 1 year. Jesus also does not go anywhere right after opening the 6th seal. It is a prophecy of the return just as it was in Matthew 24/the OD.

Prophecy of the return in the Olivet discourse.
Prophecy of the return in the 6th seal.
Actuality of the return at the 7th trump (Rev 11, also seen in Rev 19 etc etc.)

 

[ewq1938]

Then I suggest you start including what you mean. i.e..... Yes, Jesus returns at the time of the 6th seal.

Jesus does not return at the time of the 6th seal. Instead, Jesus appears in heaven, as the sign of the Son of Man in heaven.

No, he continues to open the last seal. No return and no sign of the Son of man in heaven yet....only opening of the seals and John being shown events of the future.

 

[Douggg]

No, he continues to open the last seal. No return and no sign of the Son of man in heaven yet....only opening of the seals and John being shown events of the future.

We have been talking about the events themselves revealed in the verses after the sixth sealed was opened. And comparing those events to Matthew 24:29-31.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Then you are saying the Bible is wrong. It's not what I'm saying..........an opinion, it's what the Word of God says. The Word says that Jesus comes in power and glory right after the signs of the sun, moon and stars. Those signs occur at the 6th seal. Therefore, we can conclude, CORRECTLY, that Jesus comes in power and glory at the 6th seal.

When Jesus comes at the 6th seal, IN POWER AND GLORY, he is coming for a harvest. This is the second coming when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. The ones that don't get raptured know they are in deep yogurt. Then the 7th seal is opened, and the wrath of God begins.

Jesus returns at the last part of wrath for Armageddon.

I realize you can not have him coming in power and glory after the wrath.
That is rev 19.
But even though you are wrong, he does come in power and glory on the white horses.
Nowhere does he come in power and great glory when your timing places it

You are flat out wrong.
You put all your eggs in that " sun darkened" before the wrath dynamic.
Then you went on to say the GT ends before the wrath.
The fact that the sun is darkened at the coming on white horses should tell you that "AFTER THE TRIB "in Matthew is in fact AFTER THE 7 YR GT.
The fact that there is wrath at the end does not in any way make your leap of trib/wrath separation
A plausible position.
Your position has Jesus coming twice in power and great glory!!!!!


But you can not possibly reconcile the "power and great glory" dilemma you have created.
You can not explain it away.

 

[rockytopva]

I am guilty of supporting the False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture" every day! So... Why do I continue to be in the wrong on a daily basis?

Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. - Matthew 24:42

And then he repeats himself just two verses later!

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24:44

 

[rebuilder 454]

My suggestion was not put the phrase in caps, but to make it clear that you mean at the time of the 6th seal.


You are taking a verse from the old testament aimed at a marriage between a man and woman, for the man to take a time-off from work and direct his attention to his wife's happiness, including have sex often with her (implied). A gap of one year between the sixth event and Armageddon is not in the text of Revelation.

Also, what do you think is taking place here on earth during that one year gap, you have created in your mind?

Also, how do you explain the 45 days between the 1290 days and the 1335 days of Daniel 12:11-12 regarding the abomination of desolation set up ?

Not only that. But the rapture is vividly depicted in the 10 virgins.
At the rapture, the groom/Jesus takes his bride into the marriage chamber immediately.
Not years later.

My conclusions in eschatology are based in the bride/ groom dynamic.

 

[The Light]

Not only that. But the rapture is vividly depicted in the 10 virgins.
At the rapture, the groom/Jesus takes his bride into the marriage chamber immediately.
Not years later.

My conclusions in eschatology are based in the bride/ groom dynamic.

There are two brides.

 

[The Light]

I realize you can not have him coming in power and glory after the wrath.
That is rev 19.
But even though you are wrong, he does come in power and glory on the white horses.
Nowhere does he come in power and great glory when your timing places it

I have never said that He does not come in power and glory on white horses.

You are flat out wrong.

I'm only showing what the Word says.

You put all your eggs in that " sun darkened" before the wrath dynamic.

All my eggs?

Then you went on to say the GT ends before the wrath.

Of course it does. The great tribulation ends a the 6th seal............IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION. Does that sound familiar?

The fact that the sun is darkened at the coming on white horses should tell you that "AFTER THE TRIB "in Matthew is in fact AFTER THE 7 YR GT.

If you know of any scripture that supports your contention that the sun is darkened at the coming on white horses, I'd like you to produce it

The fact that there is wrath at the end does not in any way make your leap of trib/wrath separation
A plausible position.

The Word tell you that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Not sure why you can't see that, since it is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

Your position has Jesus coming twice in power and great glory!!!!!

Exactly. He comes in power and glory at the 6th seal for the harvest, as the Word says.
I would have to imagine He comes in power and glory when He comes on white horses, but I can't provide scripture to support this.

But you can not possibly reconcile the "power and great glory" dilemma you have created.
You can not explain it away.

What are you talking about? The word proclaims that He comes in power and glory at the sixth seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. That is a scriptural fact.
I would not dispute that he comes in power and glory when He comes on white. Highly likely. Just not supported by scripture.

 

[The Light]

No, it does not say anything about 1 year. Jesus also does not go anywhere right after opening the 6th seal. It is a prophecy of the return just as it was in Matthew 24/the OD.

Read Isaiah 34

Prophecy of the return in the Olivet discourse.
Prophecy of the return in the 6th seal.
Actuality of the return at the 7th trump (Rev 11, also seen in Rev 19 etc etc.)

Wow. Nice unlevel playing field. The 7th trumpet is actually a prophecy also as is Rev 19.

 

[The Light]

My suggestion was not put the phrase in caps, but to make it clear that you mean at the time of the 6th seal.

I thought I was being pretty clear. Next time I make a chart with pictures.

You are taking a verse from the old testament aimed at a marriage between a man and woman, for the man to take a time-off from work and direct his attention to his wife's happiness, including have sex often with her (implied). A gap of one year between the sixth event and Armageddon is not in the text of Revelation.

That was just the cherry on top.

I already showed you............CUT AND DRIED.............the Isaiah 34 takes place at the 6th seal

Here in Isaiah, we see the 6th seal event.

Isaiah 34
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

A day can be a year in scripture just as one week can be 7 years.

The Day of the Lord is one year, which is confirmed by a year of recompenses below.

Also, what do you think is taking place here on earth during that one year gap, you have created in your mind?

The seventh seal is opened and the trumpets of wrath begin

 

[Timtofly]

When the 5th seal is opened the souls are told to wait until those in the great tribulation are killed like they were.

Rev 6
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

We also see the great tribulation in Rev 14 as we are back in the 1st 6 seals in Rev 13 and 14.

Rev 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.


You ain't gettin it. There will be martyrs during the tribulation. The great tribulation will be over at the 6th seal. The 7th seal is the wrath of God. All believers will be off the earth at the 6th seal.

1. The Church will be gone pretrib.
2. God will turn His attention to His Chosen. There will be 144,000 first fruits and then the post trib or prewrath rapture of the 12 tribes across the earth.
3. Then the 1-year wrath of God will begin. When happens only those in the nation of Israel that fled to the place of protection and unbelievers will be on earth.


Ok. I don't think I said different.


The 5th seal is the great tribulation.

Go to Matthew 24. Do you see the beginning of sorrows? It is false Christs, war, famine, pestilence. The are the four horsemen of the Apocalypse, the first four seals. Then in Matthew 24 we see the Great Tribulation. This is the 5th seal. Then we have the coming of Jesus in power and glory. This is the sixth seal. Simple stuff. Don't wander off the trail.


Absolutely not.......which we can prove the the signs of the sun, moon and stars.


The 65th seal is the second coming. Jesus remains in the clouds for the harvest. It is the fall fruit harvest. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal and the wrath of God. At the end of wrath Jesus returns for Armageddon and then the 7th trumpet is blown and Christ sets up His kingdom on earth. This is the second advent when Christ returns to the earth.


I know.


Most would probably tell you that, but that's not what the scripture says.

The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. Jesus remains in the clouds for the second harvest. All go to heaven for the marriage supper. Then Jesus returns at the end of the trumpets for Armageddon and to set up His kingdom at the 7th trumpet. Wrath is then over. When you are reading Rev 13 and 14 you are back in the seals. When you are reading Rev 15 and 16 you are back in the wrath of God.

Revelation gives you two views of what happens in the seals and two views of what happens during the wrath of God. Revelation is written like Genesis 7. How many times do we see Noah load the animals. How many times did he actually load them. How many times are we told the flood is up the earth? How many flood actually happened.

In Genesis 7 you get three different views of Noah loading the animals and three different views of the flood. In Revelation you get two different views of the 1st 6 seals and two different views of the wrath of God. THAT IS HOW REVELATION IS READ.


This is incorrect. Zechariah 14 is when Jesus comes to the mount of olives. But this has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the 6th seal.


The 7th trumpet has nothing to do with the 6th seal.


No, no, no, no, no, no, no. The coming of Jesus in Revelation 14 is the 6th seal coming of Jesus which is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24, which is the second coming. This has nothing to do with the 7th trumpet.

The 7th trumpet has to do with Armageddon being over and Jesus setting up His kingdom. This is the second advent.


When the 7th trumpet sounds, the wrath of God is over. It's done. It's finished. THE END. You don't need Revelation 13,14,15 and 16 to know what happened. THAT'S IT. The kingdom gets set up on earth and then 1000 years.

When you are reading Rev 13,14,15 and 16 you are getting a different view...............with additional information................of Revelation 6,7,8,9,10 and 11. This additional information helps us immensely. Most people have no idea what they are reading.



Not sure why you draw that conclusion.


Israel is already a nation. The AoD happens next, then the GT. Then the second coming. Then the wrath of God and then Armageddon and the second advent......Mount of Olives. Then the millennial kingdom


No. You keep thinking that the GT is the wrath of God. Its not. The GT is over at the 6th seal. The wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet.


Thief in the night happens at the 6th seal. The Great Tribulation is over and people say peace and safety and then are cast into the wrath of God which is the 7th seal. The wrath of God lasts 1 year.

The 5th Seal has the entire church put on robes of white.

There is no more church on earth after that point.


Yet you say more die in a tribulation after the 5th Seal, but before the 5th Seal as well.

The 5th Seal is not a period of tribulation. The 5th Seal is the end of all the gathering of the church.


So if tribulation is over seconds later after the 6th is opened, who dies after the 7th Seal during the Trumpets and Thunders? It is not the church, nor martyrs.

 

[Timtofly]

The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. Jesus remains in the clouds for the second harvest. All go to heaven for the marriage supper. Then Jesus returns at the end of the trumpets for Armageddon and to set up His kingdom at the 7th trumpet. Wrath is then over. When you are reading Rev 13 and 14 you are back in the seals. When you are reading Rev 15 and 16 you are back in the wrath of God.

This is impossible.

Jesus sets up His throne in a Temple in Jerusalem, after coming to the Mount of Olives and totally changing the geography of earth back to the way it was prior to Noah's Flood.

The 6th Seal has the angels on the earth as well. They will gather all of Jacob from the entire earth to appear for Judgment before their King in Jerusalem. They cannot leave earth until they are judged. A remnant is later found on the sea of glass, and the majority are tossed into the LOF. By the end of the first 6 Trumpets, none of Jacob is left on the earth. They are not martyrs. They are either redeemed into permanent incorruptible physical bodies, or tossed into the LOF. That is why it is Jacob's trouble even though Matthew writes it as happening first. Matthew 24 is in reverse order. The fig tree blooms, then the Second Coming, then Jacob's trouble, then the AoD, and then we are at the end.

Revelation 13 and 14 are after the 7th Trumpet sounds. Satan and the FP do not come until after the 7th Trumpet has sounded. The first 4 horses are not talking about chapter 13. For all we know the Seals will open, and the church won't even notice, because all they are concerned about is living life. The 5th and 6th Seal will be the wakeup call, rapture, and Second Coming no one is prepared for. All are waiting for the "Antichrist" like the Pharisees were waiting for a "King". Jacob will be looking for a Messiah, but at the 6th Seal meet their King. They will not be ready either.

 

[Timtofly]

Israel is already a nation. The AoD happens next, then the GT. Then the second coming. Then the wrath of God and then Armageddon and the second advent......Mount of Olives. Then the millennial kingdom

No. You keep thinking that the GT is the wrath of God. Its not. The GT is over at the 6th seal. The wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet.

Actually it is you who keeps calling the GT the wrath of God.

You have way too many convoluted steps in your above quote.

There is an 8th kingdom after the 7th Trumpet sounds. It is the AOD. The AoD cannot start until Jesus is announced the 7th Kingdom at the start of the 7th Trumpet.

The Second Coming is the 6th Seal, then Jacob's trouble, and then Matthew 13, the wheat harvest in the Thunders.

The AoD will only happen if there is an 8th kingdom. If there is no 8th kingdom, there will be no beast, no FP, nor an empire given to Satan. Satan will not sit on the throne in a temple in Jerusalem for 42 months, that Jesus placed on earth at the 6th Seal.

Revelation 17:12

"And the beast (Satan) that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

Do the math: 7 heads of the dragon, and 8 kingdoms. The 8th kingdom is the 7th head of Satan, himself. Jesus is the 7th King between the 6th and 7th heads. Satan is one of the 7 heads, but an 8th kingdom after Jesus is pronounced King. 3.5 days after the 7th Trumpet sounds, Satan may be handed the kingdom, and only then is the AoD.

Before the last person who experienced the birth of the nation of Israel dies at Armageddon, he will have lived through the Second Coming, Jacob's trouble, the wheat harvest in the Thunders, Jesus pronounced King, then Satan as the 8th kingdom 3.5 days later. 42 months later, the 2 witnesses are killed. During the next 3.5 days the rest of the week of the 7th Trumpet, the 7 vials are poured out. The 2 witnesses are resurrected, raptured, and later that afternoon is the battle of Armageddon. Then Satan is bound, the beheaded are resurrected, and the Millennium starts by 6pm on a Sunday. Monday morning, Isaiah 65 starts with all things made new.

 

[Hobie]

I am guilty of supporting the False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture" every day! So... Why do I continue to be in the wrong on a daily basis?

Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. - Matthew 24:42

And then he repeats himself just two verses later!

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. - Matthew 24:44

Read your Bible carefully...
Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

 

[Timtofly]

The Day of the Lord is one year, which is confirmed by a year of recompenses below.

Isaiah 34
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

This verse does not say Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is the thousand year millennium. This is a day of wrath, and a year of recompences. And who is the Lord here? God or the Lamb or both?

This would include letting Satan have control, as Satan can be used as a recompence by God. Any part of creation can be used to bring judgment and punishment which is the same as wrath and recompence. God used water in the Flood. God used fire and brimstone at Sodom. What is to prevent God from using Satan as a tool to carry out recompences?

The 6th Seal is the coming of the Day of the Lord. All the events of Revelation's 4 sets of Judgments are preparing for the Day of the Lord. The baptism of fire in 2 Peter 3 is the 6th Seal. All the earth will be laid bare and waste, and that is why mankind is hiding under the rubble and in the mountain's caves wanting to die, to avoid facing more of The Lord's vengeance. This is the start of Jacob's trouble, and it may last a day or a year. However long this time will be, will be determined in the midst of the days of the 7th Trumpet per Daniel 9:27. Because all this time is a harvest of every last human, the removal of the transgression, the end of sin, and the end of Adam's punishment placing earth under the bondage of death. When the 7th Trumpet stops, the mystery given in the OT that Israel could not understand will be brought to completion.

 

[ewq1938]

Read Isaiah 34


Wow. Nice unlevel playing field. The 7th trumpet is actually a prophecy also as is Rev 19.

The difference being no events happen in Matthew 24 or the seals. They are only showing events that will happen in the future. Rev 19 is the event happening.

This is why Christ is not shown to leave heaven when he opens the 6th seal. The seals are prophecies of future events not the events described actually happening at that time.