False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".
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The Light
Well-Known Member
Come on Douggg. Use common sense.
You think the sign of the Son of man is in heaven and then all the tribes mourn. And then you want to wait until the end of God wrath for Him to appear in power and glory?
Makes no sense at all. Especially sense we see the Lord as come as there is a great multitude and some of them have come out of Great Tribulation which end at the 6th seal. Jesus has obviously come at the 6th seal and remained in the clouds sending His angels to gather the elect.
That's what the text says.
mourning in verses 15-17 paraphrased - "Oh no, the great day of his wrath is come, who of us can survive it ?"
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Not "appearing", in Matthew 24:30c, but coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Revelation 19)
Matthew 24:30 a And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
Matthew 24:30 b and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,
Matthew 24:30c and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Revelation 19)
Jesus returns (Revelation 19) and executes the wrath on the Lamb, on them that martyred the great tribulation saints and who will have assembled at Armageddon to make war on Him.
The sixth seal takes place after "the tribulation of those days". Go back and read the step by step post #758.
Jesus does not come to earth in the sixth seal. He is seen in heaven in the sixth seal.
Jesus does not send his angels to gather the elect, until He has returned - Matthew 24:31.
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The Light
Well-Known Member
When the 5th seal is opened the souls are told to wait until those in the great tribulation are killed like they were.
Rev 6
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
We also see the great tribulation in Rev 14 as we are back in the 1st 6 seals in Rev 13 and 14.
Rev 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
You ain't gettin it. There will be martyrs during the tribulation. The great tribulation will be over at the 6th seal. The 7th seal is the wrath of God. All believers will be off the earth at the 6th seal.
1. The Church will be gone pretrib.
2. God will turn His attention to His Chosen. There will be 144,000 first fruits and then the post trib or prewrath rapture of the 12 tribes across the earth.
3. Then the 1-year wrath of God will begin. When happens only those in the nation of Israel that fled to the place of protection and unbelievers will be on earth.
Ok. I don't think I said different.
The 5th seal is the great tribulation.
Go to Matthew 24. Do you see the beginning of sorrows? It is false Christs, war, famine, pestilence. The are the four horsemen of the Apocalypse, the first four seals. Then in Matthew 24 we see the Great Tribulation. This is the 5th seal. Then we have the coming of Jesus in power and glory. This is the sixth seal. Simple stuff. Don't wander off the trail.
Absolutely not.......which we can prove the the signs of the sun, moon and stars.
The 65th seal is the second coming. Jesus remains in the clouds for the harvest. It is the fall fruit harvest. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal and the wrath of God. At the end of wrath Jesus returns for Armageddon and then the 7th trumpet is blown and Christ sets up His kingdom on earth. This is the second advent when Christ returns to the earth.
I know.
Most would probably tell you that, but that's not what the scripture says.
The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. Jesus remains in the clouds for the second harvest. All go to heaven for the marriage supper. Then Jesus returns at the end of the trumpets for Armageddon and to set up His kingdom at the 7th trumpet. Wrath is then over. When you are reading Rev 13 and 14 you are back in the seals. When you are reading Rev 15 and 16 you are back in the wrath of God.
Revelation gives you two views of what happens in the seals and two views of what happens during the wrath of God. Revelation is written like Genesis 7. How many times do we see Noah load the animals. How many times did he actually load them. How many times are we told the flood is up the earth? How many flood actually happened.
In Genesis 7 you get three different views of Noah loading the animals and three different views of the flood. In Revelation you get two different views of the 1st 6 seals and two different views of the wrath of God. THAT IS HOW REVELATION IS READ.
This is incorrect. Zechariah 14 is when Jesus comes to the mount of olives. But this has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the 6th seal.
The 7th trumpet has nothing to do with the 6th seal.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no. The coming of Jesus in Revelation 14 is the 6th seal coming of Jesus which is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24, which is the second coming. This has nothing to do with the 7th trumpet.
The 7th trumpet has to do with Armageddon being over and Jesus setting up His kingdom. This is the second advent.
When the 7th trumpet sounds, the wrath of God is over. It's done. It's finished. THE END. You don't need Revelation 13,14,15 and 16 to know what happened. THAT'S IT. The kingdom gets set up on earth and then 1000 years.
When you are reading Rev 13,14,15 and 16 you are getting a different view...............with additional information................of Revelation 6,7,8,9,10 and 11. This additional information helps us immensely. Most people have no idea what they are reading.
Not sure why you draw that conclusion.
Israel is already a nation. The AoD happens next, then the GT. Then the second coming. Then the wrath of God and then Armageddon and the second advent......Mount of Olives. Then the millennial kingdom
No. You keep thinking that the GT is the wrath of God. Its not. The GT is over at the 6th seal. The wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet.
Thief in the night happens at the 6th seal. The Great Tribulation is over and people say peace and safety and then are cast into the wrath of God which is the 7th seal. The wrath of God lasts 1 year.
The Light
Well-Known Member
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. The 7th kingdom is when the Antichrist comes to power. The 8th kingdom is when the antichrist, the beast of the earth causes the world to worship the beast of the sea.
The dragon is not the sea beast. Nimrod will be the beast of the sea..........who was and is not and will come again.
The thing that hath been is that which shall be and that which is done is that which shall be done.
You have this confused. Satan is not the beast of the sea.
The beast was and is not...................Satan was and is.
The Light
Well-Known Member
Jesus comes to the earth for the harvest at the 6th seal. He remains in the clouds. All return to heaven for the marriage supper. The coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24.
Does not say anything about a harvest in the sixth seal text. Does not say anything about remaining in the clouds in the sixth seal text.
The sixth seal text does not say anything about the coming of Jesus.
The sixth seal event, the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, is what results in the kings of the earth to gather their armies at Armageddon for 45 days to make war on Jesus.
The Light
Well-Known Member
Whoa Douggg, whoa.
So you want to say that the Word does not say anything about a harvest, and Jesus remaining the clouds, or even that Jesus comes at the 6th seal and then you want to claim that the sixth seal event results in a gathering of 45 days for Armageddon. I don't think that is in the text either. So your logic is bad.
So let's use some good logic.
Is there a harvest at the 6th seal? Of course. That is why there is a great multitude in heaven in Rev 7 and some of them came out of Great Tribulation. We also see this harvest in the coming of Jesus in Rev 14
Does Jesus remain in the clouds at the 6th seal. Of course. He sends His angels to the gather the elect. We also see He remains in the clouds in Revelation 14.
Does Jesus even come at the 6th seal? Of course. Why do you think the kings of the earth are trying to hide in the caves?
How do we know that Jesus comes at the 6th seal and there is a harvest and Jesus remains in the clouds? Simple logic.
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Simple logic should tell you that the sun and moon are darkened in both Matthew 24 and Revelation 6. That should tell you that the events that happen in Matthew 24 at that time occur at the 6th seal.
Additionally, I already showed that the wrath of God is one year from the time that the 7th seal opened. Those 45 days have nothing whatsoever to do with the armies staging. That is bad logic.
You keep writing Jesus comes "at" the 6th seal. What you mean by "at" ? And "comes" - where ?
The kings of the earth will be terrified when the sixth seal event takes place because they will see the Sign of the Son of Man in heaven, which will be Jesus, sickle in hand.
No, because Matthew 24:30 is in three parts. There will be 45 days between the sign of the Son of Man appearing in heaven in the sixth seal event - and then Jesus coming in the clouds of heaven back to earth with power and great glory in Revelation 19.
How long do you think the kings of the earth gather their armies at Armageddon to make war on Jesus? And what is your basis ?
The Light
Well-Known Member
This is just something that you have incorrectly Douggg. The wrath of God lasts one year from the 6th seal AS PROVEN BY ISAIAH 34
There is one year before bridegroom will go to war after the 6th seal.
This is unknown. We do know is that from the 6th seal to Armageddon is one year.
The Light
Well-Known Member
Jesus RETURNS at the 6th seal. We see it in Matthew 24 AS MARKED BY THE SIGNS OF THE SUN, MOON AND STARS.
We see the harvest in the coming in Revelation 14 which occurs at the 6th seal. We see the great multitude in heaven for the marriage supper. Where do you think those people came from? There was a harvest and the 144,000 from the 12 tribes are the 1st fruits of this harvest. Put down the sledgehammer and let scripture lead the way.
The kings of the earth gather their armies at Armageddon to make war of Jesus. What is the reason for the kings of the earth to do such a thing ?
Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
The Light
Well-Known Member
This proves nothing. Absolutely nothing. Of course, the beast and the kings of the earth gather to make war with Jesus. It's right there in the Word. But there is absolutely no scriptural evidence that links those 45 days to the gathering of the armies. You have gotten out the sledgehammer and just pounded it into place. IT DOESN'T FIT. We can scripturally prove that it doesn't fit.
You claim that there are 45 days from the 6th seal to the gathering of the armies. The Word says there is 1 year before Jesus leaves heaven with His armies after the 6th seal.
Here in Isaiah, we see the 6th seal event.
Isaiah 34
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
A day can be a year in scripture just as one week can be 7 years.
The Day of the Lord is one year, which is confirmed by a year of recompenses below.
Isaiah 34
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
So put away that sledgehammer. Scripture proves what you are saying is incorrect.
The Light
Well-Known Member
Yes Jesus returns at the 6th seal.
Here is the return.
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
You want to put a gap between the sign of the Son of man and when He comes in power and glory. There is no gap. Jesus comes, but remains in the clouds and sends His angels and there is a harvest. This is why there is a great multitude in heaven in Rev 7 and some come out of great tribulation. We see that the TRIBULATION IS OVER at the 6th seal................IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION.........we have the 6th seal signs of the sun, moon and stars.
Additionally, we see the harvest in Rev 14.
Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
And unbelievers are cast into the wrath of God which is exactly what happens at the 6th seal.
Then I suggest you start including what you mean. i.e..... Yes, Jesus returns at the time of the 6th seal.
Jesus does not return at the time of the 6th seal. Instead, Jesus appears in heaven, as the sign of the Son of Man in heaven.
Jesus returns to this earth in Revelation 19.
It is not a "gap" but 45 days of the kings of the earth gathering their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war on Jesus.
Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
He comes in power and great glory only one place, and that is with the white horses...after The wrath
The period of wrath has heathens seeing God sitting on His throne.
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