False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

[Keraz]

Davy, your claims that Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 is the rapture is incorrect because Jesus does not send angels to do what He Himself does in in 1Thessalonians4:15-18. It is not a moot point.

Paul did not write about angels in 1Thessalonians4:15-18, because angels are not involved in the rapture/resurrection.

Sheer rubbishy nonsense!
2 Thess 4:15-18 is plainly, obviously; about the glorious Return. Matthew 24:31 just fills in the detail of how Jesus actually does the gathering of His people; by sending out His angels.

While you continue to promote unscriptural theories like a rapture/ resurrection, ALL of your 'charts' and posts are under suspicion of being false teachings. Get it right, or when you stand before Jesus, He will have no rewards for you. 1 Cor 3:11=15

 

[The Light]

Do you think the following will occur when the rapture of the church occurs?

2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

No. This will not occur when the mostly Gentile Church is raptured. This verse is talking about the second coming which occurs at the 6th seal as we can see with the verses below. The wrath of God is going to begin when the 7th seal is opened.

2 Thessalonians 10
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

 

[The Light]

What are you talking about?

You think everyone is done because Jesus did everything for our salvation. But a person is not saved until they believe. The Jews are blinded and that blindness will not be removed until the first fold is in heaven. When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in part of that blindness can be removed and the Jews that believe can be regrafted.

Again, the folds have already been brought together as one as Paul taught. You are not accepting that.

Of course I don't believe that. Has the Church been raptured? Has the Jews blindness been removed yet? Are the unbelieving Jews regrafted?

Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Paul said he made both folds (Jew and Gentile sheep/believers) one. You say He hasn't done it yet. I'm going to side with Paul on this.

The folds do not come together until the harvests have occurred.

When He comes for His Church those that heard His voice and believed will be raptured. That is the first fold. Then other sheep not of this fold will believe and will hear His voice. The second rapture is the second fold. They will be joined together at the gathering from heaven and earth.

John 10
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

I'm going to go with both John and Paul on this.

But, that is what Jesus said. You are abandoning your "as written" approach when it comes to John 5:28-29. Why? Because you know it's a bad approach and can't be used consistently without contradicting scripture?

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Why would you not use an undeniably straightforward scripture passage like this as the foundation for your understanding of the timing of the resurrection of the dead and apply it to less straightforward scripture found in the book of Revelation?

I have not abandoned anything. You probably need a little more understanding. Are you saying these verses are wrong?

Revelation 20
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Daniel 12
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[The Light]

The covenant that the Antichrist will confirm for the seven year is the Mt. Sinai covenant. That is the covenant that Moses wrote about confirming in Deuteronomy 31:9-13 for seven years.

I don't believe this is correct. I would be looking at the U.N. for that 7 year covenant.

The Day of the Lord includes those things, but is not limited to.


The Day of the Lord is eternal. And has segments to it.

The Day of the Lord is one year and does not include the tribulation as the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. This might sound familiar..........Immediately after the tribulation of those days.............

 

[The Light]

The beast coming out of the earth is the false prophet, who will come on the scene coming out of Israel.

The beast out of the earth has two horns.

Revelation 13
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

One horn is the false prophet who is cast into the lake of fire with the beast of the sea.

 

[The Light]

The beast coming out of the earth will be Antichrist, and as the beast-king will be worshiped. The person will go through 5 stages, listed in the bible, on the way to his demise.

There are no 5 stages. You are convoluting a conglomerate concoction. This is a melding of myopian conflations. This type of peripheral fornication is a regurgitation of self-defecating and pungent pontifications.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No. This will not occur when the mostly Gentile Church is raptured. This verse is talking about the second coming which occurs at the 6th seal as we can see with the verses below. The wrath of God is going to begin when the 7th seal is opened.

2 Thessalonians 10
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Good job of looking at other verses for context, but I see no basis for thinking that 2 Thessalonians 1:10 won't be fulfilled when the rapture occurs.

2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. That will certainly be a glorious event and we will greatly admire Him after finally being with Him.

If not for doctrinal bias, I don't believe anyone would think that the day when He is glorified in his saints and admired in all them that believe would occur at any other time except when we are caught up to meet Him.

 

[Taken]

That's true, all Scripture is given by inspiration of God. That's what that verse is about.

But it does not prove a pre-trib rapture theory.

I respond to your posts, BUT NOT FOR YOUR BENEFIT, or TO PROVE ANYTHING TO YOU.

Yep, so where's the Bible Scripture to support a pre-trib rapture?

An Escape plan, For new creatures with forgiven sin, restored soul, quickened spirit, with the Lords Spirit in them, are not appointed to wrath.

You have multiple times been given Scriptural references, and Express Identified Scriptural Quotes regarding this topic, and still fail at understanding….as the Lord warned would be the case for naysayers.

Mark 4: (to you)
[12] That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Luke 8: (to me)
[10] And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

Your own ideas are not enough, nor by some preacher. It has to be written in God's Word to show support, otherwise it is a doctrine that is to be cast to the wayside.

Not my “ideas”… rather my TRUST in the Lords Word and Way and Order.

So Noah experienced a pre-trib rapture? Where's that written?

Evidence IN Scripture…

For 7 days before the first Rain Drop Fell, Noah +7 were inside of the ark.

Noah +7 were Saved. Noah + 7 did not experience death. The rest of the entire World’s occupants were Not Saved….died!

And just so you know, because you evidently have failed to read those Genesis Scriptures about Noah, he and his family God Himself 'sealed' in the ark. And the ark didn't leave the earth; it was on top of the height of the flood waters for 150 days. That means it went through... the flood.

Just since YOU DO NOT KNOW….
EARTH IS……..DRY LAND!

The ARK was LIFTED UP ABOVE THE EARTH.
The ARK WAS LIFTED UP ABOVE THE MOUNTAINS TOPS. <—> EARTH!
ON THE MOUNTAIN TOPS IS HOLY

B-CAUSE, YOU DO NOT KNOW…
Mountain tops “IN THE CLOUDS” is holy GROUND. <—> EARTH.
IN The Clouds “IS” HOLY SPACE of the Lower Heavens.

The Spirit of God that which Resides “IN” the forgiven, the soul restored, the spirit quickened, ARE summoned, AND SHALL RISE UP TO THE CLOUDS…ABOVE THE EARTH….same as in Noah’s (+7 others) Day…
BEFORE Tribulations, Wrath, Destruction IS SENT DOWN FROM God IN High Heaven.

Thus it is fallacy to try and use Noah as support for a pre-trib rapture.

Be SURE to TELL tell Lord … at your Judgement Day … What a waste of His Breath to preach and remind people of Noah’s day, and the similitudes of Gods prophecy of another World Catastrophic Event.

Per the old Hebrew calendar, 30 days was one month. So 150 days = 5 months. Per Rev.9 the stinging of those NOT 'sealed' by God will last "five months". And Rev.12 talks about the waters as a flood out of the serpent's mouth after the symbolic woman (Christ's Church). And that is for the end of this world for the coming tribulation.

The “woman” you mention IS NOT ….
Christ’s Church.

The “woman” you mention IS….
NATIONS of men and their kings AGAINST God!

WOMAN, while an identifier of a Female Human… isn’t A Female Human in Rev.
WOMAN, is characteristic of Female…
SHE, HER, is common Knowledge RELATES to Nations, Countries…(and often cars & boats)

You failed to produce even one... Bible Scripture evidence to support a pre-trib rapture theory.

False.

The reason why you didn't because none exist in God's Word to support it.

Your failure to not understand, the words “pre-trib” did not exist when Noah’s was Lifted UP Above the Earth, nor is necessary to have in the printed text to Comprehend…
Scriptural Teaching.

Forgiven, Soul Saved, Sanctified, Quickened Humans upon the Face of the Earth HAVE a ROLE NOW to participate IN….
HOWEVER….
During the next Great Tribulation and wrath sent down from Heaven…they HAVE NO ROLE upon the face of the earth to participate IN.

How COME you are always ON THE ATTACK…and NEVER PREACHING YOUR BELIEF of YOU Being ON the FACE of the EARTH DURING the TRIBULATION….and Scriptural Quotes, of what IS your purpose to BE on the Earth then…and what you will be DOING?

Hummm?

Here is something very serious that you pre-tribbers should know from God's Word:

Lord Jesus, Apostles Paul and John warned the Church about a coming false-Messiah that will work supernatural great signs, wonders, and miracles to fool the whole world into believing he is Christ. And at the end of Luke 17:37 Jesus warned about a false... gathering to fowls which the pre-trib rapture doctors instead teach you guys to gather to, when that will be to that first one that comes claiming to be Messiah.

In simple words, the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine is designed to deceive you in being gathered to the false-Messiah that Jesus warned us about in the Matthew 24:23-26 verses, and that Apostle Paul warned us about in the 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 verses, and that Apostle John warned us about in the Revelation 13:11-14 verses.

Those in Christ are to WAIT for Lord Jesus' coming which will be AFTER... that false-Messiah, to destroy him, like Paul showed in the 2 Thess.2.

No one IN Christ is going to expect Jesus to be walking about the Earth, and dash out in a mass gathering to meet him…
No one who believes IN the Pre-trib is preaching such nonsense.

There have been FALSE Preachers claiming themselves to be Jesus, for eons, and even Satan will have his turn at such malarkey.
IF you studied Scripture you would KNOW HOW to identify WHO that will be!

But no matter for me…. I have NO BUSINESS ON Earth during those days.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You think everyone is done because Jesus did everything for our salvation. But a person is not saved until they believe. The Jews are blinded and that blindness will not be removed until the first fold is in heaven. When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in part of that blindness can be removed and the Jews that believe can be regrafted.

You are badly misinterpreting Romans 11. You say "the Jews are blinded" as if they all are. No, blinded in part. Some are and some are not. That's why Paul talked about a remnant of believers in his day in contrast with the rest who were blinded (Romans 11:5-7).

You act as if up to this point those who were blinded never have any chance to be saved and that won't happen until a future time. To come to that conclusion requires you to miss or ignore what Paul wrote here:

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Paul asked regarding those who were blinded in his day "Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid.". They stumbled, but did not fall. They were blind, but not permanently. Some of those who were blinded later repented and were saved. That's why Paul said "If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.".

So, scripture indicates that the very ones who were blinded in Paul's day and all who have been blinded since then were only blinded temporarily (in part) and still had the opportunity to be saved. Your doctrine says that those who were blinded in his day and since then were permanently blinded until their deaths and it will be that way until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. Your doctrine clearly contradicts what Paul taught. Their blindness was never permanent for the rest of their lives, but rather was done in order for the Gentiles to provoke them to jealousy and lead them to salvation.

Postponing everything Paul was talking about in Romans 11 until a future time requires someone to ignore the context of what Paul was talking about, which can be seen in verses 11-14. He was talking about something that was a reality back then and would continue to be the case until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. God's plan was to blind Israel in part in order to use Gentile believers to provoke them to jealousy and lead them to salvation. It is a reversal of how it was at the beginning when Israelite believers brought the gospel to the Gentiles and lead them to salvation. Then, God turned things around to have the Gentiles lead the Israelites to salvation. That plan has been ongoing ever since.

Of course I don't believe that. Has the Church been raptured? Has the Jews blindness been removed yet? Are the unbelieving Jews regrafted?

What do you think Paul meant when he said this:

Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Paul talked about it like a done deal. He HATH MADE both one. And he was talking about Gentile believers and Israelite believers. Why do you not take this as written (literally) like you do so much other scripture? Where is the consistency in your approach to interpreting scripture?

As for your questions, the blindness of some Jews has been removed on an ongoing basis for the past almost 2,000 year as I explained earlier. So, yes, some Jews are regrafted. Never does Paul say all of them would be. That is based on your misinterpretation of Romans 11:26 by way of not seeing which Israel Paul is talking about there. To see of which Israel all are saved, all we have to do is look at Romans 9:6-8. It's not the nation of Israel.

The folds do not come together until the harvests have occurred.

With the understanding that we're talking about the Jewish sheep (believer) fold and the Gentile sheep (believer) fold, Paul said Jesus "HATH MADE both one" (Eph 2:14). It's amazing to me that you don't take that verse as written when you harp so much on taking scripture as written. Except in the case when it doesn't agree with your doctrine?

I have not abandoned anything.

You abandon your "as written" approach to interpreting scripture when you try to say that both folds have yet to be made into one fold when that is exactly what is indicated in Ephesians 2:14. And when you deny that all of the dead won't be resurrected at generally the same time as Jesus indicated in John 5:28-29.

You probably need a little more understanding. Are you saying these verses are wrong?

Revelation 20
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Daniel 12
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Of course I would not say that. Ridiculous question. I'm saying your interpretation of those verses is wrong. How do you reconcile what those verses say with what Jesus said in John 5:28-29? It's not a problem for my view and my way of interpreting scripture. But, it is a problem for yours. I'm saying that you are inconsistent in your "as written" literal method of interpreting scripture. You make a lot of exceptions to your rule such as when you do not take passages like Ephesians 2:11-22 and John 5:28-29 as written.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Many Churches have picked up the false Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture", and give the people the idea that if you are a real Christian you will be caught up in the secret rapture to be with Christ. To arrive at this the Scripture has to be twisted and taken out of context.
Here are some of the texts that have been quoted as referring to the rapture:-

1. The Church will meet Christ in the air - 1 Thessalonians 4:17
2. The Church will be taken to heaven - 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and John 14:3
3. Christ will come for His saints - 2 Thessalonians 2:1
4. The rapture is a mystery - 1 Corinthians 15:51
5. The righteous will be removed - 1 Thessalonians 4:17

The verse, 1 Thessalonians 4:17 used in 1, 2, and 5 has been twisted to make it seem to say the things they claim. Let us look at this verse in context with the verses around it.
1 Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."
Verse 14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."
Verse 15 "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep."
Verse 16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"
Verse 17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
Verse 18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."
Verses 13 - 15 says sorrow not for those that are asleep or dead, Jesus died and rose again and so conquered death. When He comes again these people He will raise from the grave as verse 16 explains and then in verse 17 we which are alive and remain will be caught up with those that have been raised from the grave to be ever with the Lord Jesus Christ. This quote can fit nowhere else but the second coming of Jesus - verse 15.

John 14:3 used in this, tells us that after Jesus arose, He told His disciples that He was going to prepare a place for them, referring also to all the righteous, and that he was coming again to receive all the righteous unto Himself. It is refering to the time when Christ comes at His 2nd coming.
John 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me."
Verse 2 "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."
Verse 3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

2 Thessalonians 2:1 used in number 3 is correct but let us put the correct interpretation to it. Read verses 1, 2, and 3 and the reader will see that verse 1 tells us that Christ is coming again to gather His people to Himself; verse 2 tells us not to be troubled but hold firm; verse 3 tells us not to be deceived for that day shall not come until the man of sin -"The Pope" - is revealed; and verse 4 gives us a description of what the man of sin is like.
2 Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"
Verse 2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."
Verse 3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"
Verse 4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."

1 Corinthians 15:51 used in number 4 is taken completely out of context. By reading verse 52 also we find that we shall not all sleep, but those that are alive when Christ comes the second time at the end of the seven last plagues, shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye and the dead shall be raised incorruptible. This is the very same meaning as in 1 Thessalonians 13:18 which is talking about the second coming.
1 Corinthians 15:50 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."
Verse 51 "Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"
Verse 52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
Verse 53 "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

Its clear what is being said, but evil likes to bring confusion and twist the truth.

I think this whole "Left Behind" Rapture belief is indeed false, but mostly because Christians historically have never believed it until the advent of the Schofield Reference Bible and modern Dispensationalist Theology, which dates back to the last 180+ years.

 

[Taken]

Davy's response:
Did you not read my post where I said pre-tribbers are taught to create slogans and sayings, philosophy and opinion in attempt to try and prove the false pre-trib rapture theory? You have done a great job of doing just that instead of showing actual Bible Scripture support for a pre-trib rapture.

Perhaps becoming a student of an elementary Sunday school class would be beneficial for you.

 

[Taken]

However, man's pre-trib rapture theory INSTEAD teaches that what Jesus said to His (Jewish) disciples there on the Mount of Olives only applies to Jews, and not to the Church!

UTTERLY FALSE!

 

[Douggg]

Sheer rubbishy nonsense!
2 Thess 4:15-18 is plainly, obviously; about the glorious Return. Matthew 24:31 just fills in the detail of how Jesus actually does the gathering of His people; by sending out His angels.

While you continue to promote unscriptural theories like a rapture/ resurrection, ALL of your 'charts' and posts are under suspicion of being false teachings. Get it right, or when you stand before Jesus, He will have no rewards for you. 1 Cor 3:11=15

Keraz, sarcasm and mockery are a sign of desperation. Also, you yourself have no charts because you decline to make an effort to learn how to make them using a graphics program like Corel Paintshop Pro.

 

[Taken]

False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

For those of you….
NOT COMFORTED with Scriptural Words…

WHY ATTEMPT TO DUMP YOUR OWN DISCOMFORT ON OTHERS…AS IF YOUR DISCOMFORT, YOUR UN-BELIEF, IS AN OTHER’S FAULT ?


1 Thes 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

“Caught up”…. Two words.

* Hebrew, Greek, Latin, English….
MEANING… “Caught up”…
ἁρπαγησόμεθα
Harpazo
Rapiemur
Rapio
Rapturo
R-A-P-T-U-R-E

Seized, Snatched, Transported, Raised…”UP”.


1 Thes 4: (16-17) IS SPECIFIC knowledge Written TO: ABOUT: FOR: those persons WHO ARE: “IN CHRIST”.
WHO ARE: SANCTIFI-ED (past tense!)

If “you” are NOT a person “IN CHRIST”….
“NOT SANCTIFI-ED” …
those passages:
Do NOT APPLY to You.
Should NOT HAVE any significance for You.
Are NOT INTENDED to Comfort You.

WHY spend the EFFORT post after post, page after page, trying to Convince others, what they already Expect, Know, Accept, regarding that You ARE NOT COMFORTED IN YOUR DENIAL OF SCRIPTURAL TEACHING?

Accept the FACTS:
Your DENIAL is not the Fault, Blame, of another… You own Your Denial… You are accountable for Your Denial... You reap the consequence of Your Denial…

FYI…The “RAPTURE” is not “SECRET” to those “IN CHRIST”…. They ARE FULLY aware, knowledgable, understanding, comforted, expecting, waiting FOR that day!

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Keraz]

For those of you….
NOT COMFORTED with Scriptural Words…

But the Prophetic Word does comfort me. I know the Lord will protect me. if I call upon His Name.

People are free to believe anything they like. It is beliefs that have no proper Bible support; that they teach and promote, that I object to and refute.
The BIG issue is the 'rapture to heaven' of the Church.

Firstly; Jesus said: Take care that you be not deceived…. This infers that it is possible for any Christian to be deceived. The fact of the 2 camps on this issue; for and against, proves that one side must be deceived.

Those who hold to the 'rapture' theory have to make a lot of assumptions and suppositions to fit it into scripture and because there is no consensus among then as to when it could happen, this alone cast serious doubt on that belief.

But there more, much more:
1/ Jesus said it was impossible, John 3:13, John 17:15, +

2/ We are told many times that we must endure until the end. Matthew 24:13, Revelation 13:10, +

3/ People do not Return with Jesus. Matthew 16:27, Revelation 19:14

4/ I have said that people should ascertain the alternative:
Which isn't having to take the mark of the beast, but living in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land, where the Lord will protect His faithful People and Bless them greatly. Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26

 

[Davy]

Davy, here are two charts. The first one is the pre-trib rapture view. The second on is the anytime rapture view, the view I came up with and hold.

View attachment 46496



View attachment 46497

And BOTH... show a pre-trib rapture, simply because you have the rapture prior to the "day of the Lord". The "day of the Lord" is when Jesus comes to gather His Church, and not at any time before.

 

[Davy]

Davy, your claims that Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 is the rapture is incorrect because Jesus does not send angels to do what He Himself does in in 1Thessalonians4:15-18. It is not a moot point.

Paul did not write about angels in 1Thessalonians4:15-18, because angels are not involved in the rapture/resurrection.

That's a poor excuse you're only using so you don't have to recognize those Matthew 24 and Mark 13 Scriptures about Jesus' coming to gather His Church.

 

[Davy]

False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

For those of you….
NOT COMFORTED with Scriptural Words…

WHY ATTEMPT TO DUMP YOUR OWN DISCOMFORT ON OTHERS…AS IF YOUR DISCOMFORT, YOUR UN-BELIEF, IS AN OTHER’S FAULT ?


1 Thes 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

“Caught up”…. Two words.

* Hebrew, Greek, Latin, English….
MEANING… “Caught up”…
ἁρπαγησόμεθα
Harpazo
Rapiemur
Rapio
Rapturo
R-A-P-T-U-R-E

Seized, Snatched, Transported, Raised…”UP”.


1 Thes 4: (16-17) IS SPECIFIC knowledge Written TO: ABOUT: FOR: those persons WHO ARE: “IN CHRIST”.
WHO ARE: SANCTIFI-ED (past tense!)

If “you” are NOT a person “IN CHRIST”….
“NOT SANCTIFI-ED” …
those passages:
Do NOT APPLY to You.
Should NOT HAVE any significance for You.
Are NOT INTENDED to Comfort You.

WHY spend the EFFORT post after post, page after page, trying to Convince others, what they already Expect, Know, Accept, regarding that You ARE NOT COMFORTED IN YOUR DENIAL OF SCRIPTURAL TEACHING?

Accept the FACTS:
Your DENIAL is not the Fault, Blame, of another… You own Your Denial… You are accountable for Your Denial... You reap the consequence of Your Denial…

FYI…The “RAPTURE” is not “SECRET” to those “IN CHRIST”…. They ARE FULLY aware, knowledgable, understanding, comforted, expecting, waiting FOR that day!

Glory to God,
Taken

But the question is though, WHEN does that "caught up" happen per God's Word? Paul tells us in that 1 Thessalonians 4 chapter, but pre-tribbers just BYPASS it...

1 Thess 4:16
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
KJV

That's the future resurrection. When are those asleep saints raised per Jesus?

John 6:40
40 And this is the will of Him That sent Me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
KJV

When is the "last day"? The very last day of this present world, which ends with the coming of Jesus Christ on the "day of the Lord".

And then at the same time, those still alive on earth are "caught up" to them and Jesus, per 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

1 Thess 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

Staying in God's Word as written makes this very simple.

 

[The Light]

And BOTH... show a pre-trib rapture, simply because you have the rapture prior to the "day of the Lord". The "day of the Lord" is when Jesus comes to gather His Church, and not at any time before.

I know you won't respond as you continue to run and hide because you know that I am going to post scripture that proves you have no idea what you are talking about. Again, your ideas are completely left wanting. The day of the Lord is the day of wrath. The wrath of God lasts 1-year. Both raptures happen before the Day of the Lord.

Isaiah 2
12 For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

Isaiah 13
6 Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

Isaiah 13
9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Jeremain 46
For this is the day of the Lord God of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord God of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.

Joel 1
15 Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

You called me out and said you were going to produce scripture that proved you were right. I have yet to see anything you have posted that shows you even have the slightest whim of clue about the rapture of the Church.

 

[Davy]

I respond to your posts, BUT NOT FOR YOUR BENEFIT, or TO PROVE ANYTHING TO YOU.

I don't really care if you respond or not, because it's clear that your mind is made up to not even bother to read the Bible Scriptures that I quote.
You keep reverting back to your, "I'm right and you're wrong" attitude without giving us any... Scripture proof whatsoever of a pre-trib rapture.

An Escape plan, For new creatures with forgiven sin, restored soul, quickened spirit, with the Lords Spirit in them, are not appointed to wrath.

Scripture for that "Escape plan"?

You have multiple times been given Scriptural references, and Express Identified Scriptural Quotes regarding this topic, and still fail at understanding….as the Lord warned would be the case for naysayers.

You have given NO Bible Scripture evidence for a pre-trib rapture, not even one verse about it. All your giving is verses that have nothing to do with a pre-trib rapture.

For example, your 'not appointed to wrath' idea is just a slice'n'dice from 1 Thess.5 where Paul was teaching about the last day of this world when the deceived will be saying, "Peace and safety" and then "sudden destruction" comes upon them. That sudden destruction happens on the last day of this world, on the "day of the Lord" as Apostle Paul says there, and THAT is the "wrath" that Paul was talking about, i.e., GOD'S WRATH upon the wicked on the LAST DAY of this world.

But you pre-tribbers are instead wrongly taught that "wrath" of 1 Thess.5:9 is about the "great tribulation" time when it is not. It's about the "day of the Lord" when Jesus returns to gather His Church, the last day of this world AFTER the tribulation.


In the following Apostle Paul shows just what type of "wrath" it is that those in Christ are not appointed to, as it is about God's "wrath" upon the wicked and deceived on the "day of the Lord", the last day of this world...

1 Thess 5:1-9
5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
KJV

And what is even more funny about man's false pre-trib rapture theory, is how they use that idea by Paul about the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night" to point to a fake rapture prior to the "great tribulation".