False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

[Douggg]

So you don't realize that claiming a pre-trib rapture being possible is actually in opposition to what Lord Jesus taught?

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV


Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

Davy, the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 is referring to the final gathering of the Jews from the nations to the land of Israel.

It is a promise that God made to the children of Israel in Deuteronomy 30:1-6. Notice the language in verse 4 and how that is similar to the language Mattew 24:31 and Mark 13:27.

1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,

2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

 

[Davy]

Davy, the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 is referring to the final gathering of the Jews from the nations to the land of Israel.

That's only what certain men you listen to have lied to you.

Those verses were NOT simply just for Jews, as Jesus was speaking to the early foundation of His Church, i.e., His Apostles (Ephesians 2:19-22).

Those Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 verses are the SAME events which Apostle Paul taught about the gathering of the Church in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17.

The Matt.24:31 version is about the gathering of the 'asleep' saints which are already with Jesus that Paul said Jesus will bring with Him (1 Thess.4:13-16). And the Mark 13:27 version is about the saints still alive on earth being "caught up" to them and Jesus at His coming per 1 Thess.4:17.

 

[Douggg]

That's only what certain men you listen to have lied to you.

No, I am not getting that information from other men. God teaches me.

The Matt.24:31 version is about the gathering of the 'asleep' saints which are already with Jesus that Paul said Jesus will bring with Him (1 Thess.4:13-16). And the Mark 13:27 version is about the saints still alive on earth being "caught up" to them and Jesus at His coming per 1 Thess.4:17.

Davy, when the rapture/resurrection takes place, it will be Jesus Himself who gathers the living in Christ, and resurrects the dead in Christ.

Differently, in Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27, angels are sent by Jesus to do the gathering.

 

[Taken]

You posted a LOT of fantasy, because you try... to prove men's false pre-trib rapture theory is written in God's Word when it is not.

Scripture IS Approved by God…
2 Tim 3:16

False pre-trib Rapture?

** Tribulations and Wrath CAME DOWN FROM Heaven, IN Noah’s Day.
** God Prepared Noah and 7 others a WAY, to Escape the coming Tribulations and Wrath INTENDED to KILL those persons ON the Face of the Earth.

My words DO NOT DISTORT or UNDERMINE Historical Scriptural Documentation.

The MATTER, is every individuals FREEWILL to Believe what occurred and was Recorded IN Scripture… OR NOT.

** Scripture Reveals ANOTHER Prophetic “similar” WORLD EVENT Shall Occur.

** AGAIN Individual humans Have Been OFFERED a specific WAY, (Again According to Gods Offering), to (similar to Noah & 7 others) ESCAPE the Tribulations and Wrath that SHALL Be sent DOWN FROM HEAVEN.

You being CONVINCED that Prophecy IS “a THEORY”, RATHER THAN…
A Biblical Script Prophetic Revealing…

IS: you exercising your own Freewill to Deny that which Biblical Script HAS Revealed.
AND further…
IS: you exercising your own Freewill to ACCUSE others WHO DO TRUST TO BELIEVE Biblical Script, with your laughter, finger pointing and accusing.

You have been given individuals testimony.
You have been given Biblical supportive text.
You have been given suggestions to go READ Biblical text, to read the knowledge for yourself.
You have NOT addressed the Text.
You simply continue your un-authorative arm-chair accusations…and deflections…
AS IF, your opinion passes the merit test. It doesn’t.

No one IS commanded to Believe … IN YOU.
No one IS demanding you Believe..IN THEM.

Your failure to Address or BELIEVE in Biblical Prophetic Text; Shall ONLY be ACCOUNTABLE unto to you.

I TRUST God IS FAITHFUL and TRUE.
Everyone SHALL receive their “hearts desire”.
You being quite SURE, (IF you be bodily alive ON THE DAY Gods Tribulations and Wrath From Heaven is Sent to Earth.)….That your Hearts Desire IS given you, and you ARE on the Face of the Earth to experience the Horrors, of MASS Agonies, Suffering, Cities in Crumbled Heaps, Food and Water shortages, Deaths, and the SIGHT and PUTRID SMELLS thereof…OF DEAD BODIES….)
That SURELY SOUNDS like a BEAUTIFUL GALA EVENT, that EVERY Committed Faithful Convert IN Christ IS LOOKING FORWARD TO!” NOT!

Do you remember Jim and Tammy Baker and the PTL Club? Jim Baker served prison time for abusing his ministry, which pushed what doctrine of man? The false pre-trib rapture theory.

But Baker said his prison sentence gave him time to really get into God's Word, and he said he learned from God's Word that the pre-trib rapture theory he had been teaching was false. Jim Baker now follows The New Testament which declares Jesus' future return as Post-trib.

Irrelevant DEFLECTION

Despite your own testimony and accusations….

Fact IS: In as much as God prepared a WAY for Noah to ESCAPE MASS DEATH UPON THE FACE OF THE EARTH….so ALSO…has God PREPARED A WAY for men “IN” Christ to ESCAPE the coming Prophetic MASS DEATH UPON THE FACE OF THE EARTH.

Glory, Glory, Glory to the Lord God Almighty,
Taken

 

[Taken]

That's only what certain men you listen to have lied to you.

Those verses were NOT simply just for Jews, as Jesus was speaking to the early foundation of His Church, i.e., His Apostles (Ephesians 2:19-22).

UH…the Early Church WERE the Jews.
The 12 Apostles WERE the Jews.
The Apostles WERE SENT to Preach to the Jews.
The EARLY CHURCH (was Preached IN fields, IN Jewish Homes, IN Jewish Synagogue's).

Those Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 verses are the SAME events which Apostle Paul taught about the gathering of the Church in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17.

AFTER Jesus left EARTH…
You completely (ignore, skip over)….
* Gentiles eager to hear….
* Pharisees eager to Pressure and threaten for Jesus’ Gospel to STOP being preached in Synagogs…
* THEN is the Encounter between the Lord and Saul (a JEW (Saul) AND ROMAN CITIZEN (Paul)) brought into the Picture…and the Beginning to SET Paul on a mission INCLUSIVE of: the Gospel OF JESUS CHRIST thereafter PREACHED FOR and TO:
Jews, Gentiles, and Kings.


Matt 15:
[24] But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matt 10:
[5] These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

THE “interim”… Jesus returns to Heaven…
“The Church” begins fading away from the “Leadership” of the Jews. Gentiles begin taking “leadership” roles in “Christ Church”, changing it to “the Catholic Church”.
Saul / Paul IS APPOINTED (and ACCEPTS his APPOINTMENT) with a “Leadership” role IN “CHRIST’S CHURCH”….

AGAIN…mans FAILURE has corrupted Christ’s Church … First with the Jews, Then with the Gentiles.

Despite “Jewish Synagogs’ and “Gentiles’ Churches” Leadership FAILURES…
Individual Jews and Individual Gentiles ARE individually hearing, reading, attesting DIRECTLY TO Christ Jesus their Heartful Belief IN the Lord God Almighty, and ACCEPTING HIS OFFERING of SALVATION…
NOW, given men…
Yesterday, Today and SHALL continue DURING portions of the Tribulations and Wrath send down from Heaven in THESE LAST DAYS.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[The Light]

So you don't realize that claiming a pre-trib rapture being possible is actually in opposition to what Lord Jesus taught?

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV


Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

So you don't realize that claiming there is not a pretribulation is in opposition to what the Lord Jesus taught. He is coming in an hour that you think not.

The verses that you quote have nothing to do with the pretribulation rapture. The event you quote is seen here and is the second rapture

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

There is not much time left. You should study to show yourself approved. The door will be shut soon.

 

[The Light]

The Antichrist will commit that act. As a result in Ezekiel 28:1-10, God has the person assassinated. i.e. mortally wounded. Then in disdain for the person in Isaiah 14:18-20, God returns his soul back to his lifeless body. At that time, the person becomes the beast.

The beast of the sea is the 1st king. He is the king of Babylon and the Assyrian.

The warning to the Jews about him is seen here.

Matthew 4
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

The beast of the sea is an antichrist.

The beast of the earth is the man of sin and the Antichrist.

The false prophet will have a statue image made of the beast, and places it on the temple mount - the Abomination of Desolation - which triggers the beginning of the great tribulation.

If you will notice on my chart, I show the AoD, followed by the great tribulation.

You show both the AOD and great tribulation in the 1-year Day of the Lord. Not correct.

View attachment 46487



The Day of the Lord is eternal. But it has segments. The beginning segment is during the 7 years, when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation. When Jesus returns, His second coming (on my chart) the millennium begins, shown on my chart.

The Day of the Lord is the day of vengeance and the year of recompenses.

Isaiah 34
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

The Day of the Lord begins at the 6th seal

Isaiah 34
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places..

Daniel 9:27, the prince who shall come will confirm the covenant for 7 years to begin the 70th week.

I don't agree with that. I used to. I think the covenant with many will start the 70th week. But the scripture does not say that the Antichrist has to confirm it at that time. He can confirm that covenant after it is made.

Of course, it has not been done in recent times because of the Muslim presence on the temple mount. But following Gog/Magog with the Muslim presence removed, it will be possible.

Gog Magog happens after the 1000 years.

Revelation 20
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

 

[Douggg]

Gog Magog happens after the 1000 years.

Revelation 20
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Gog and Magog in Revelation 20:8 is the same nations that took part in the Gog/Magog event over a thousand years earlier.

The Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel 39 is followed by 7 months of the burying the dead of Gog's army and 7 years of burning the weapons (the diesel fuel) instead of wood.

Differently, Revelation 20:8 is followed by a resurrection of the dead for the Great White Throne Judgement and destruction of this current earth.

I don't agree with that. I used to. I think the covenant with many will start the 70th week. But the scripture does not say that the Antichrist has to confirm it at that time. He can confirm that covenant after it is made.

The covenant that the Antichrist will confirm for the seven year is the Mt. Sinai covenant. That is the covenant that Moses wrote about confirming in Deuteronomy 31:9-13 for seven years.

The Day of the Lord is the day of vengeance and the year of recompenses.

Isaiah 34
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

The Day of the Lord begins at the 6th seal

Isaiah 34
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places..

The Day of the Lord includes those things, but is not limited to.

You show both the AOD and great tribulation in the 1-year Day of the Lord. Not correct.

The Day of the Lord is eternal. And has segments to it.

 

[Douggg]

The beast of the sea is the 1st king. He is the king of Babylon and the Assyrian.

The beast of the sea is an antichrist.

The beast of the earth is the man of sin and the Antichrist.

The beast coming out of the earth is the false prophet, who will come on the scene coming out of Israel.

The beast coming out of the earth will be Antichrist, and as the beast-king will be worshiped. The person will go through 5 stages, listed in the bible, on the way to his demise.

 

[Davy]

No, I am not getting that information from other men. God teaches me.

If that were true, then you would never... have considered man's pre-trib rapture theory being possible.

Davy, when the rapture/resurrection takes place, it will be Jesus Himself who gathers the living in Christ, and resurrects the dead in Christ.

Differently, in Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27, angels are sent by Jesus to do the gathering.

Thing is, Jesus said He will raise His on the "last day" per John 6:40. His gathering of the Church still alive on earth happens at that same time of that resurrection. So that is not a pre-trib rapture.

Regardless that Jesus sends angels, it's still about the gathering of His elect, and is hard-linked to what Paul taught in 1 Thess.4.

 

[Davy]

Scripture IS Approved by God…
2 Tim 3:16

That's true, all Scripture is given by inspiration of God. That's what that verse is about. But it does not prove a pre-trib rapture theory.

False pre-trib Rapture?

Yep, so where's the Bible Scripture to support a pre-trib rapture? Your own ideas are not enough, nor by some preacher. It has to be written in God's Word to show support, otherwise it is a doctrine that is to be cast to the wayside.

** Tribulations and Wrath CAME DOWN FROM Heaven, IN Noah’s Day.
** God Prepared Noah and 7 others a WAY, to Escape the coming Tribulations and Wrath INTENDED to KILL those persons ON the Face of the Earth.

So Noah experienced a pre-trib rapture? Where's that written?

And just so you know, because you evidently have failed to read those Genesis Scriptures about Noah, he and his family God Himself 'sealed' in the ark. And the ark didn't leave the earth; it was on top of the height of the flood waters for 150 days. That means it went through... the flood. Thus it is fallacy to try and use Noah as support for a pre-trib rapture.

Per the old Hebrew calendar, 30 days was one month. So 150 days = 5 months. Per Rev.9 the stinging of those NOT 'sealed' by God will last "five months". And Rev.12 talks about the waters as a flood out of the serpent's mouth after the symbolic woman (Christ's Church). And that is for the end of this world for the coming tribulation.


You failed to produce even one... Bible Scripture evidence to support a pre-trib rapture theory. The reason why you didn't because none exist in God's Word to support it.


Here is something very serious that you pre-tribbers should know from God's Word:

Lord Jesus, Apostles Paul and John warned the Church about a coming false-Messiah that will work supernatural great signs, wonders, and miracles to fool the whole world into believing he is Christ. And at the end of Luke 17:37 Jesus warned about a false... gathering to fowls which the pre-trib rapture doctors instead teach you guys to gather to, when that will be to that first one that comes claiming to be Messiah.

In simple words, the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine is designed to deceive you in being gathered to the false-Messiah that Jesus warned us about in the Matthew 24:23-26 verses, and that Apostle Paul warned us about in the 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 verses, and that Apostle John warned us about in the Revelation 13:11-14 verses.

Those in Christ are to WAIT for Lord Jesus' coming which will be AFTER... that false-Messiah, to destroy him, like Paul showed in the 2 Thess.2.

 

[Davy]

Davy said:
"Those verses were NOT simply just for Jews, as Jesus was speaking to the early foundation of His Church, i.e., His Apostles (Ephesians 2:19-22)."

UH…the Early Church WERE the Jews.
The 12 Apostles WERE the Jews.
The Apostles WERE SENT to Preach to the Jews.
The EARLY CHURCH (was Preached IN fields, IN Jewish Homes, IN Jewish Synagogue's).

Davy's Reply:
Of course those Jews with Jesus on the Mount of Olives, His disciples, were part of the foundation of the early Church, which is what I had said if you would take time to read what I said.

However, man's pre-trib rapture theory INSTEAD teaches that what Jesus said to His (Jewish) disciples there on the Mount of Olives only applies to Jews, and not to the Church! And it's amazing how many of you pre-tribbers are easily fooled by those men who say that, because it's obvious that Jesus was speaking to the Church with His Olivet discourse, and not only to His little band of disciples at His 1st coming. And what is even more telling that the pre-trib rapture theory doctors are telling lies, is how they still... use certain sections of Scripture from Christ's Olivet discourse about Jesus coming, etc. So can't you pre-tribbers understand how those pre-trib doctors are lying through their teeth?

Another thing is this, Christ's Olivet discourse SIGNS are what the Seals of Revelation 6 is about. So who did Lord Jesus give His Revelation through Apostle John to? The answer is in that Revelation 1 Chapter. To His Church.

Those Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 verses are the SAME events which Apostle Paul taught about the gathering of the Church in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17.

You said:
AFTER Jesus left EARTH…
You completely (ignore, skip over)….

Davy's response:
That's an incomplete sentence above, so I don't have a clue what you're claiming I have skipped over. I know I have not skipped over any Bible scripture that supports a pre-trib rapture theory, simply because there is NO Bible scripture that shows a pre-trib rapture.


You said:
* Gentiles eager to hear….
* Pharisees eager to Pressure and threaten for Jesus’ Gospel to STOP being preached in Synagogs…
* THEN is the Encounter between the Lord and Saul (a JEW (Saul) AND ROMAN CITIZEN (Paul)) brought into the Picture…and the Beginning to SET Paul on a mission INCLUSIVE of: the Gospel OF JESUS CHRIST thereafter PREACHED FOR and TO:
Jews, Gentiles, and Kings.

Davy's response:
That above doesn't make sense, it's just a bunch of jumbled up pieces of ideas. Not coherent at all. God is not the author of confusion.


Matt 15:
[24] But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matt 10:
[5] These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Davy's response:
Those two Matthew verses above show nothing about a pre-trib rapture. And the "house of Israel" at that time of Christ's 1st coming was about the lost sheep of the ten scattered tribes of Israel who were among the Gentiles (and still are today). What that is about is how The Gospel was rejected by the majority of Jews at Jerusalem, and that it would instead go to the lost sheep (ten scattered tribes of the house of Israel) and to the Gentiles where they were scattered. Since you can't handle Bible Scripture to prove a pre-trib rapture, I doubt if you understand much about the ten lost tribes of Israel per God's Word.

You said:
THE “interim”… Jesus returns to Heaven…
“The Church” begins fading away from the “Leadership” of the Jews. Gentiles begin taking “leadership” roles in “Christ Church”, changing it to “the Catholic Church”.
Saul / Paul IS APPOINTED (and ACCEPTS his APPOINTMENT) with a “Leadership” role IN “CHRIST’S CHURCH”….

AGAIN…mans FAILURE has corrupted Christ’s Church … First with the Jews, Then with the Gentiles.

Davy's response:
The above is just more OPINION, and not Scripture proof of a pre-trib rapture.


You said:
Despite “Jewish Synagogs’ and “Gentiles’ Churches” Leadership FAILURES…
Individual Jews and Individual Gentiles ARE individually hearing, reading, attesting DIRECTLY TO Christ Jesus their Heartful Belief IN the Lord God Almighty, and ACCEPTING HIS OFFERING of SALVATION…
NOW, given men…
Yesterday, Today and SHALL continue DURING portions of the Tribulations and Wrath send down from Heaven in THESE LAST DAYS.

Davy's response:
Did you not read my post where I said pre-tribbers are taught to create slogans and sayings, philosophy and opinion in attempt to try and prove the false pre-trib rapture theory? You have done a great job of doing just that instead of showing actual Bible Scripture support for a pre-trib rapture.

 

[Douggg]

If that were true, then you would never... have considered man's pre-trib rapture theory being possible.

Davy, most people who hold the pre-trib view think that the covenant to be confirmed for 7 years is some sort of peace treaty involving Israel.

I don't agree with that point of view. I maintain that the treaty to be confirmed for 7 years is the Mt. Sinai covenant, confirmed in the manner Moses required in Deuteronomy 31:9-13. I did not get that from being taught by other men.

Regardless that Jesus sends angels, it's still about the gathering of His elect, and is hard-linked to what Paul taught in 1 Thess.4.

No, 1Thessalonians4:15-18 is Jesus Himself resurrecting the dead in Christ and translating the living in Christ. Jesus does not send angels to do those things.

 

[Davy]

Davy, most people who hold the pre-trib view think that the covenant to be confirmed for 7 years is some sort of peace treaty involving Israel.

Lot of folks that are Post-trib believe that too though. So I don't see that as a valid point to support a pre-trib rapture theory.

I don't agree with that point of view. I maintain that the treaty to be confirmed for 7 years is the Mt. Sinai covenant, confirmed in the manner Moses required in Deuteronomy 31:9-13. I did not get that from being taught by other men.

That's what it actually is per what the "vile person" of Daniel 11 does, calling it the "holy covenant". That is what supports the placing of the "abomination that maketh desolate" per verse 31 of that chapter, showing there will be a 3rd temple built for the end, with old covenant worship with sacrifices started up again in Jerusalem.

That understanding comes simply from sticking to the Scriptures in Daniel and Christ's proclaiming the "abomination of desolation" in His signs for the end.

Yet, the subject I was talking about in my previous post to you was about how in your post you claimed a pre-trib rapture as being possible, and you even show that in your chart.

So, are you trying to conceal that your are a pre-tribber? I already know you are by your 'fruit', by your own posts.

No, 1Thessalonians4:15-18 is Jesus Himself resurrecting the dead in Christ and translating the living in Christ. Jesus does not send angels to do those things.

What I explained that what Jesus showed in Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 with where the saints are GATHERED FROM, is hard-linked to what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4:13-17. Just because Paul did not say Jesus will send angels with that is irrelevant and is a moot point.

 

[The Light]

If that were true, then you would never... have considered man's pre-trib rapture theory being possible.

You mean the Son of mans pretrib rapture.

Thing is, Jesus said He will raise His on the "last day" per John 6:40.

John 6
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Thing is, many of them that sleep in the ground will be raised at the 6th seal harvest. That is the last day of the age. And many of them that sleep in the ground will be raised when He comes for the first harvest. Thing is, He is also coming when you think not.

Daniel 12
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Thing is, two folds into one-fold.

John 10
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

His gathering of the Church still alive on earth happens at that same time of that resurrection. So that is not a pre-trib rapture.

Thing is, He gathers the dead in Christ first which is the barley harvest. He returns for the alive that remain. This is the wheat harvest. Then He returns for the second coming at the 6th seal. The is the fall fruit harvest. All eyes will see the coming of the Lord. All believers, the great multitude will be in heaven for the marriage supper during the 1 Year wrath of God.

Regardless that Jesus sends angels, it's still about the gathering of His elect, and is hard-linked to what Paul taught in 1 Thess.4.

Thing is, you are incorrect. 1 Thessalonians 4 is the rapture of the Church. The dead first and then the alive that remained. Then the gathering from heaven and earth is hard-linked to 1 Corinthians 15. The is when the 12 tribes across the earth the seed of the woman is raptured. All are in heaven that are raptured will be in heaven during the one year wrath of God. The woman Israel remains on earth during the wrath of God in her place of protection. None of Gods people are appointed to wrath.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You keep denying the obvious.

Nope. I would never do that. That would be dishonest. There's no reason to be dishonest with scripture.

You have to accept Christ to be saved by the blood of Christ.

What are you talking about?

Most of the Jews are currently in blindness and do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah. Part of Israel will not have its blindness removed until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Ephesians 2
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Here again, we see it's all about timing. There are currently sheep that hear the voice of Jesus. And there are other sheep NOT of this fold that He will bring with Him, as their blindness will be removed after the 1st fold is gathered.
John 10
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

It's all in the Word. It's not that difficult to understand. The first fold of believers is gathered. Then there will be a second fold of believers gathered. The two folds are then merged together into one-fold. Simple.

Again, the folds have already been brought together as one as Paul taught. You are not accepting that.

Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Paul said he made both folds (Jew and Gentile sheep/believers) one. You say He hasn't done it yet. I'm going to side with Paul on this.

No. I don't think you can say the same to me. You don't seem to understand the John 5:28. Not all the dead will be resurrected at generally the same time as you claim.

But, that is what Jesus said. You are abandoning your "as written" approach when it comes to John 5:28-29. Why? Because you know it's a bad approach and can't be used consistently without contradicting scripture?

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Why would you not use an undeniably straightforward scripture passage like this as the foundation for your understanding of the timing of the resurrection of the dead and apply it to less straightforward scripture found in the book of Revelation?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Thing is, you are incorrect. 1 Thessalonians 4 is the rapture of the Church. The dead first and then the alive that remained. Then the gathering from heaven and earth is hard-linked to 1 Corinthians 15. The is when the 12 tribes across the earth the seed of the woman is raptured. All are in heaven that are raptured will be in heaven during the one year wrath of God. The woman Israel remains on earth during the wrath of God in her place of protection. None of Gods people are appointed to wrath.

Do you think the following will occur when the rapture of the church occurs?

2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

 

[Douggg]

So, are you trying to conceal that your are a pre-tribber? I already know you are by your 'fruit', by your own posts.

Davy, here are two charts. The first one is the pre-trib rapture view. The second on is the anytime rapture view, the view I came up with and hold.

 

[Douggg]

What I explained that what Jesus showed in Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 with where the saints are GATHERED FROM, is hard-linked to what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4:13-17. Just because Paul did not say Jesus will send angels with that is irrelevant and is a moot point.

Davy, your claims that Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 is the rapture is incorrect because Jesus does not send angels to do what He Himself does in in 1Thessalonians4:15-18. It is not a moot point.

Paul did not write about angels in 1Thessalonians4:15-18, because angels are not involved in the rapture/resurrection.

 

[Keraz]

That's what it actually is per what the "vile person" of Daniel 11 does, calling it the "holy covenant".

It is a mistake to say the treaty of Daniel 9:27, is the same as the Covenant in Daniel11:32.
The 7 year peace treaty between the Anti-Christ and Gods people, is made at the beginning of the final 7 years before Jesus Returns.
The Covenant, is between God and His people, after they have gathered into the holy Land and is everlasting. Hebrews 8:8-12

The 7 year treaty will be broken by the AC after one half is spent. This commences the 42 month reign of the beast; Revelation 13:5-7
With the New Covenant, it is just the few who fail to trust the Lord for His protection, who violate it. As Isaiah 28:14-15 describes.

Yet, the subject I was talking about in my previous post to you was about how in your post you claimed a pre-trib rapture as being possible, and you even show that in your chart.

Thank you; Davy, for refuting the lie of a 'rapture to heaven'.
I ask rapture believers to provide scripture to prove their belief. They can't do it, as nowhere is that crazy idea ever said in the Bible.

But that does not faze them! They insist it will happen, they demand it will happen and their disappointment when they remain on earth, as disaster strikes, will mean some will fall away from their faith. Jesus will winnow them into the fire which cannot be put out. Matthew 3:12