False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

[rebuilder 454]

Pretrib rapture rules the debate... hands down .....big time

 

[The Light]

It seems that you want to ignore what this passage literally says, which makes no sense for someone who takes almost everything so literally:

Ephesians 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,

Here it is. Plainly written. It says Jesus HAS MADE the two groups one. And here you are denying this plainly written text. Do you only follow your "as written" rule when it doesn't contradict your beliefs? This passage says it's already been done. Jew and Gentile believers were made into one group. One fold. Who is doing the ignoring? It seems to be you.

You keep denying the obvious. You have to accept Christ to be saved by the blood of Christ. Most of the Jews are currently in blindness and do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah. Part of Israel will not have its blindness removed until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Ephesians 2
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Here again, we see it's all about timing. There are currently sheep that hear the voice of Jesus. And there are other sheep NOT of this fold that He will bring with Him, as their blindness will be removed after the 1st fold is gathered.
John 10
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

It's all in the Word. It's not that difficult to understand. The first fold of believers is gathered. Then there will be a second fold of believers gathered. The two folds are then merged together into one-fold. Simple.

LOL. You are a funny one. So, I guess I can say the same to you when I say that all of the dead (saved and lost) will all be resurrected at generally the same time because that is what Jesus said. This is pretty tough to argue against and, yet, you do argue against it.

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

No. I don't think you can say the same to me. You don't seem to understand the John 5:28. Not all the dead will be resurrected at generally the same time as you claim.

Revelation 20
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Daniel 12
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

That is your assumption and nothing more. Unless you can say who exactly the 24 elders are, there's no reason to believe you about this.

I am not assuming that the 24 elders have crowns. Knowing who the 24 elders are, has not bearing as to whether they have crowns or not.

Again, you are taking 2 Peter 1:20 out of context.

That is not what Paul wrote! You are not taking what he wrote as written. You violate your own "as written" rule repeatedly. I can't take it seriously. He said after the dead in Christ rise those who are alive and remain are "caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air". They meet the Lord in the air, they don't go to heaven. Please stop making things up. Why do you abandon your "as written" rule in this case? There's no consistency in your approach.

In no way, shape or form does Paul say that the dead in Christ are raised from the dead and taken to heaven and then Christ leaves heaven again to get those who are alive and remain. You are not taking Paul's words as written.

1 thes 4
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The alive that remain. Why would the Word say the alive that remain?

If we look at the feasts of God, it paints a picture of what is to come. If you don't understand those feasts, you will not understand end times. We should also understand the Jewish wedding.

 

[Taken]

You're not disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with our Lord Jesus Christ.

You flatter yourself and heap false accusations upon the Lord Jesus Christ.

Lord Jesus is Whom I quoted with the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture, which is also what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4, which is... about a Post-tribulational gathering of the Church.

Trust the Scriptural FACTS PER their CONTEXT!

The BOTTOM LINE IS…
WHO, WHEN, does a HUMAN man ESTABLISH a personal relationship WITH GOD and HIS WORD and HIS POWER…
OR NOT!
AND the CONSEQUENCES “of THAT RELATIONSHIP…or LACK THEREOF” !

In “these days”….In “those days”…IS ALL relevant to (WHO) is the INDIVIDUAL manKIND and (WHEN) that INDIVIDUAL manKIND IS in AGREEMENT to ESTABLISH a ONE on ONE Personal Relationship WITH the Lord God Almighty….or NOT!

* For THOUSANDS of YEARS….
Hebrews (so called)… ISRAEL (so called)…TRIBES of ISRAEL (so called)…JUDAH (JEWS) (so called)….
HAVE EXPRESSLY been (so called):
GODS PEOPLE.
* For THOUSANDS of YEARS…
“Gods People”….Believed IN:
The Heavenly God AND His WORD AND His POWER.
* Nothing NEW…the SAME CONTINUES “by, through, of MANKIND’s FREEWILL to this DAY…

While RACE in today’s world FOCUSES ON the OUTSIDE SKIN Color…
RACE BIBLICALLY FOCUSES ON the INSIDE.
….An Individual can not BECOME; genetically, naturally; NON-ISRAEL.
….An individual can not BECOME genetically, naturally; NON-Gentile.
….An individual can not BECOME genetically, naturally;
NON-Negro, NON-Caucasian, NON-Male, NON-Female, NON-Israel, NON-Gentile.

God Established “DIVISIONS”.
UP…DOWN
IN…OUT
DAY…NIGHT
MALE..FEMALE
ISRAEL…GENTILE
WITH….WITHOUT
Etc.

It IS By, tHROUGH, OF;
Gods OFFERINGS…
ManKinds ACCEPTANCE…
Gods ORDER, WAY, MANNER, what was NATURALLY Established, CAN BE MADE
SUPERNATURALLY “CHANGED”.
AND the CONSEQUENCES THEREOF…
“The CHANGE”…
BECOME “CONCRETE, SETTLED, PERMANENT”!!

ALL of manKind IS conceived and born Natural….AND SUBJECT TO Gods Rejection, Gods Tribulations, Gods Wrath…
UNTIL A “CHANGE” (God OFFERS) has been ESTABLISHED AND they BECOME “SUBJECTED” TO THE CHANGE, rather than the former NATURAL Subjection”.

Your utter nonsense that that WHICH the Lord God ALMIGHTY HAS “SUPERNATURALLY CHANGED” …
“REMAINS subject TO it’s NATURAL is ridiculous.

Gods “ACCOUNTING” “DOES NOT REQUIRE CHANGE MANIFESTATION TO MATERIALIZE FOR the Supernatural Change to BE ACCOUNTED Changed” !!!

It is manKIND, who WAITS TO “SEE” what the Lord God HAS supernaturally “CHANGED”.

An Individual, WHO HAS (past tense)…BECOME MADE CHANGED…
….body, soul, spirit….
By, Through, Of the POWER of God…
…IS NO LONGER “subject to” A NEGATIVE SUPERNATURAL CONSEQUENCE!!!

“THE” Last days upon THIS CURRENT EARTH, IS INTENDED, and SHALL HAVE A NEGATIVE EFFECT UPON “ALL” natural individual manKIND, “UPON” the face of the Earth!!

IN the “UNKNOWN DAY”, at an “UNKNOWN HOUR”…A DIVISION SHALL OCCUR….

Christ the Lord Jesus’ CHURCH (MEMBERS)….(the SAME WHO willingly Chose to Heartfully Commit themselves (body, soul, spirit) UNTO THE Lord God Almighty….SHALL BY the POWER and AUTHORITY of the Lord God…RISE UP TO the Lord…Christ’s Church Members…(be they physically bodily dead or physically bodily alive)…

For some strange “unfounded” reasoning you have concluded….DURING the 21 Tribulations Gods SENDS DOWN FROM HEAVEN….”EXPRESSLY” upon manKIND ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH … WHO HAS “FAILED” (according to Gods ORDER, WAY, MANNER” to ACCEPT HIS CHANGE)…AND are GIVEN “THOSE” Days “TO” get to getting and MAKE THEIR COMMITMENT or suffer the negative consequences…

REALLY….??
Either you must conclude, God “Doesn’t “REALLY” account a man being “CHANGED”…
OR
A “CHANGED” man meaning nothing, and MUST SUFFER THROUGH the last days tribulations and wrath of God.

@Keraz

So you must... address those Scriptures

2 Cor 5:
[17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Gal.6
[15] For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

A NEW CREATURE IS NOT “SUBJECT TO” NOT “APPOINTED TO” the NEGATIVE Godly CONSEQUENCE of the “OLD” creature.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Davy]

All rapture verses are peacetime, commerce, and normal life.
Run that through your imagined doctrine

The Pre-trib Rapture theory is from MEN, not from GOD.

John Nelson Darby in 1830's Great Britain was first to preach it in a Christian Church.

Lord Jesus showed that His future return and gathering of His saints will be AFTER the tribulation, as per the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture.

And YOU continue to BYPASS those Bible Scriptures in your false rebuttals, showing that you HAVE NO INTENTION OF KEEPING THE ACTUAL BIBLE TEACHING BY CHRIST JESUS.

 

[Davy]

You flatter yourself and heap false accusations upon the Lord Jesus Christ.

....

Resorting to vanity and slandering is not a sign of supporting an argument.

You as others here, FAIL to heed the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture by Lord Jesus Himself where He showed His future return to gather the Church will be AFTER the tribulation. You, like others here, didn't even bother to ADDRESS these Scriptures!

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV


Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

The Matthew 24:31 version is about the gathering of the asleep saints Jesus brings with Him from Heaven once resurrected per 1 Thess.4:13-16.

The Mark 13:27 version is about the Church still alive on earth that is "caught up" to Jesus per the 1 Thess.4:17 verse, what many call the rapture.

 

[Taken]

If only it was Gods Word that you trusted.

What makes me laugh, is the hopeless inconsistency of the 'rapture to heaven' believers. The pretentious pre-trib, the unlikely mid-trib and the post-trib belief that has the Church going to heaven, while Jesus is back on earth!

Uh…THE CHURCH IS RAPTURED…rises UP to the Clouds….MEETS their Lord….IS…ding, ding, ding….”FOREVER WITH THIER Lord, where He IS, THEY ARE!!!”

1 Thes 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The Son of Man shall RETURN, via the WAY HE LEFT EARTH….Last SEEN IN the Clouds…RETURNING SEEN sitting on a White Cloud…

The Son of Man, (then revealed The Son of God), came to Earth HUMBLED, and Left Earth with the FACT He IS the Christ. FYI…THE CHRIST “IS” the Power of God.

WHEN the Son of Man, ie Son of God, ie THE Lord, RETURNS, He returns….AS CHRIST the Lord, WITH POWER…IS the POWER of God.

1 Cor 1:
[24] But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

When HE RETURNS FOR ALL THOSE remaining ON the FACE of the EARTH….
DUH…
He returns WITH HIS HOLY SERVANT ANGELS…WHO ARE SPIRITS, WHICH Human EYES CAN NOT SEE tHem AS THEY ARE.
He returns WITH HIS “CHANGED” Glorified CHURCH. (Spiritual Bodies), that HUMAN MEN CAN NOT SEE them as they ARE.

DURING the LAST DAYS TRIBULATIONS sent down from Heaven…
MEN ARE NOT “JOINING” Christ’s Jesus’ CHURCH, that NO LONGER IS PRESENT UPON THE FACE OF THE EARTH!!

THEY ARE “EITHER” CHOOSING TO CONFESS their heartful BELIEF IN the Lord God Almighty….or NOT.
1) CONFESS and Become Physically Dead and their living soul ascend up to heaven to wait Judgement.
2) REJECT and Become Physically Dead and their living soul sent down to hell to wait Judgement…
3) HEARTFULLY BELIEVE, remain mortally ALIVE (having deflected from physical death PER the Tribulation)….AS the REMNANT who Re-Populates the Earth (WITH ONLY BELIEVERS, and utter ABSENCE OF ALL DEMONIC FALLEN ANGELS…) DURING Christ the Lord Jesus’ 1,000 year reign.

AND FYI…THOSE Mortals…generationally shall live, prosper, develop towns, cities, Nations, Trade, Get Along, reproduce offspring, die, AND…over the course of centuries….
WITHOUT one IOTA of negative influence OF Demonic Fallen Spirit Angels…
FALL AWAY FROM THEIR FAITH, TRUST, OBEDIENCE, IN the Lord God….VIA natural ManKinds OWN, natural GREED, LUSTS, SELF-CENTEREDNESS, JEALOUSIES, TRICKERIES.

THEN at the closing of the 1,000 Year reign of Christ the Lord Jesus….SHALL the DEMONIC Angel SPIRITS BE RELEASE TO INFLUENCE the MORTALS upon the face of the earth….and SURPRISE, SURPRISE, ALL the NATIONS SHALL COME AGAINST Christ the Lord Jesus’ KINGDOM…

And UH, OH, WHOOPS…They SHALL BE MET WITH “Christ the Lord Jesus’”…
TWO EDGED SWORD…
(Which you SHOULD KNOW is His WORD WITH POWER)…and they instantly KILLED by Him Speaking His WORD.

END of MORTALITY….and then fully prepared to USHER IN the NEW HABITAT…ESTATE…
New Heaven, New Earth, MESHED, SAME ONE PLACE, SAME ONE “spiritually” ALIVE Occupants, WITH their creator, maker, savior, Lord God Almighty, forever and ever.

IF YOU DO NOT KNOW where YOU fit into the BIG PICTURE of Gods DESIGN for ALL of His Creations…OR WHY… that has ZERO affect and effect regarding me.

There WILL BE, plenty of “BELIEVERS” and “UNBELIEVERS” who will EXPERIENCE…some or all of Gods TRIBULATIONS and WRATHS sent down from Heaven…

THERE Will BE NO (body, soul, spirit) CONVERTED BELIEVERS ON EARTH experiencing GODS Tribulations, Wrath.

Glory to God.
True, Just, Faithful is He,

Taken

Then there is those crazies who just say: anytime Lord; just whisk me away from this worldly mess.

Have any of you tried to consider the Lords reasoning about rapturing His people away from the earth? Why would He do that?
Isn't our role to be His witnesses and His Light to the nations? How can we do that in heaven?

I suggest the those who have that escapist mentality, seriously reconsider their beliefs, before it is too late and they have to answer to God for their mistake.

 

[The Light]

Resorting to vanity and slandering is not a sign of supporting an argument.

You as others here, FAIL to heed the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture by Lord Jesus Himself where He showed His future return to gather the Church will be AFTER the tribulation. You, like others here, didn't even bother to ADDRESS these Scriptures!

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV


Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

The Matthew 24:31 version is about the gathering of the asleep saints Jesus brings with Him from Heaven once resurrected per 1 Thess.4:13-16.

The Mark 13:27 version is about the Church still alive on earth that is "caught up" to Jesus per the 1 Thess.4:17 verse, what many call the rapture.

As we can see there is nothing in the verses that say it is the mostly Gentile Church that is gathered from the earth immediately after the tribulation.

Additionally, it is the Church that is gathered from heaven immediately after the tribulation of those days. There are 24 elders with crowns before the throne which proves that Jesus has already come for His Church before the seals are opened.

 

[MA2444]

This thread still going too? Lol. I got tired of arguing with those guys. Most the time they dont even try to make coherent logical thought out debate question or something with reason attached to it. So Proverbs 18:13 applies to them...lol. Sad.

I was a solid pretrib rapture adherent. Then by listening to these guys too much (on a different forum) I thought they was right so I became post trib and didnt feel any peace in my spirit about it and I thought that was weird. So I pray about it. I studied some more. I prayed. I studied. Ding! I am pre trib and everything makes sense again. I did not make those decisions lightly!

Missing the rapture isnt something to be flippant about. I bet the Lord throws the best BBQ in the universe, and who would want to miss that?!

It just does not make sense that the Lord would subject His Bride to this time of Jacobs trouble. She is the one who is set apart. She is unblemished.
God will allow this time of Great Tribulation to come upon the (unrepentant) world as a last chane mercy to them to get them to turn to Him. The closer people are to death, the easier it is to Believe in God! Truth.

(been there done that, got th T-shirt!)

 

[Keraz]

‘Rapture to heaven’ believers say that people who dispute their theory just cannot see or understand that belief.
It’s what we don't see in the Bible, where the difference lies. Nowhere does scripture say God intends to take His people to heaven. In fact Jesus Himself says such a thing is impossible. John 3:13, John 7:34, Revelation 2:25-26, etc.

People who read the whole Bible can establish the truth for themselves - that God's purpose is to have a people who will be His faithful believers, doing His will on earth. THAT is our task and our destiny! But a lot of people don't bother to find out this truth. They listen to teachers and read fictional books that say we can just be good people, churchgoers and tithers and God will remove them to heaven. They are told this fantastic event will happen before any judgement or testing of their faith. They are told it is the Jewish people who must face tribulation, not them.
This scenario is not found anywhere in the Bible. It is made up from assumptions and making scriptures mean something they do not. For instance, John 14:1-3 which is a prophecy about the new heavens and earth that comes down after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7

So the 'rapture to heaven' believers will never convince anyone who seriously reads their Bible. The lazy people who accept doctrines from anywhere, except the Bible, are deceived and because they choose to believe lies, the Lord has locked them into their delusions. Isaiah 29:9-12, and stopped their ears to the truth; 2 Timothy 4:4

 

[MA2444]

People who read the whole Bible can establish the truth for themselves - that God's purpose is to have a people who will be His faithful believers, doing His will on earth. THAT is our task and our destiny! But a lot of people don't bother to find out this truth. They listen to teachers and read fictional books that say we can just be good people, churchgoers and tithers and God will remove them to heaven. They are told this fantastic event will happen before any judgement or testing of their faith. They are told it is the Jewish people who must face tribulation, not them.
This scenario is not found anywhere in the Bible. It is made up from assumptions and making scriptures mean something they do not.

That's what I did. I'm reading it cover to cover again this year. I *think* I'm on my 5th time, but not positive. A couple things I noticed was that if you dont understand the OT, then you cant easily understand the end times scriptures in the NT.. You have to use OT testament scriptures...Jerimiah, Isaiah, Daniel, Ezekial and it goes on. And another thing is that us westerners who have little grasp on the culture and languages used back then will easily make mistakes and see so-called contradictions in scripture by believeing that they are all post Trib rapture verses because we didnt see all the details and understand the idiosyncrasis of the languages used. In Matthew 24 and 25 it talks about both the Rapture and the 2nd coming in the same chapters. But who looks up the minor words of the passage and realizes that Jesus changed the subject back and forth when He was talking to the 4 disciples, but we didnt catch it so dont understand where the change in subject occured! But the disciples knew instantly because they were of that culture and spoke the language. And if one keeps this in mind (with no preconceptions) then it gets easier to identify Rapture passages and statements.

When Jesus talks about the Rapture, He says you will not know the day or time, I come unexpectedly, so be watching. This is where the doctrine of immenincy came from. Nothing has to happen prophetically before the rapture happens. But when that 7 year covenant is signed by the antichrist, then we know it will be 1260 days (3 1/2 yrs) before the Great Tribulation begins (3 1/2 yrs)...thhen Jesus comes back and many prophecies must be fulfilled before His 2nd coming. There are two harvests. One for the Bride and then again at the end.

The scripture says that we will have tribulations in the world, but not the Great Tribulation where it has never before ever been that bad since the beginning of the world.

Go hide yourselves in your chamber my people and shut the doors until the wrath of God passes upon the earth. Go where? In to our place that He went to prepare for us!

The keys to the details are mostly in the OT. Is there still anyone who does not thnk that the OT doesnt talk about the rapture? Because it sure does! And He is the God which tells the end from the beginning...so there's that...

 

[Taken]

The Pre-trib Rapture theory is from MEN, not from GOD.

So…what is YOUR POINT….SCRIPTURE IS FANTASY?

1 Thes 4:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds , to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John Nelson Darby in 1830's Great Britain was first to preach it in a Christian Church.

For centuries, Gentiles, calling themselves and their church “CATHOLIC”… coulda, shoulda, recognized the passage “caught up” and taught the same to their massive illiterate congregations. Maybe some did, I can not say.

John Darby…(whoever he is)…1830’s…obviously living in an ERA….of the beginning of … focus on printing Bibles, Bible availability, Bible affordability, and the General Public’s awareness focus on Literacy.

You identifying John Darby with a special accolade, means nothing to me….with consideration of what I just mentioned.

Lord Jesus showed that His future return and gathering of His saints will be AFTER the tribulation, as per the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture.

When you follow the Scripture….
The Word of God came out of Gods Mouth.
God prepared His Word a body in the Likeness as a man.
That body was sent to a virgin Womb.
That body was revealed in the manner Natural to manKind.
That child was given the name JESUS.
That child was call the Son of Man.
That Man was called the LAMB of God.
That child grew into an adult.
That adult was revealed to be the Word of God.
That adult was revealed to be the Christ Messiah of God.
That adult was revealed to BE Salvation, High Priest, Savior, Wisdom of God, Power of God, Light of God, Spirit, God INCARNATE, Holy, Sinless, without beginning, without ending.
That BODY was Killed.
His SOUL went to Hell.
His SOUL returned to His Body.
His BODY revived Living.
He notified witnesses He would leave Earth and return to Earth.
His BODY “returned” to Heaven.
His SPIRIT is ONGOING sent to Earth to …
BE…with Believers, as long as they Believe.
His SPIRIT is ONGOING sent to Earth to …
BE…With and IN “Converted” Believers FOREVER.

So…what YOU SHOULD HAVE LEARNED…
IS: Jesus has MANY “names and titles and descriptions”.
IS: “Names, Titles and Descriptions” that HAVE SPECIFIC APPLICATIONS”…

NOTHING NEW…the same applies TO mankind !

IN Brief;
Christ’s Church Members, ARE “set aside”; ie Sanctified, (be they bodily alive or dead)
The “Lord” descends to the clouds.
The “Lord’s servant (Angel) signals Christ’s Church Members, (who by default, ARE Members of Christ’s Church, they having taken advantage of Jesus’ Offering to become MADE MEMBERS” by their VOW and Jesus’ Faithfulness and Power.)
The Church Members ARE Escorted UP to the clouds (heaven), their grooms Father’s house, to MEET their groom, AS HE IS.

Mean time the LAMB of God IN Heaven, and begins OPENING the SEALS, one by one.
And thus begins, The tribulation of God SEND DOWN to earth UPON all unrighteousness.
After the 7 SEALS…are opened…

Angels Begins Sounding Trumps, also in a series of 7…

And during the Trumps…Wow…a Lamb arrives “On holy ground” mountain top ZION, with 144,000 Sealed Servant men of the Tribes of Israel…to Preach the Gospel TO: men of ISRAEL…

Jesus In Heaven.
Lord descends to the Clouds.
Christ’s Church rises to meet the Lord.
Lamb arrives during the Trumps.

Are YOU getting it…?
Inasmuch as God has multiple Names, Titles, Descriptions, Tasks….and IS EVERYWHERE…
SO ALSO IS the SAME for the SON who is God.

You / @Keraz, blathering on and on about LIMITING the Lord God Almighty, of WHERE He CAN be, of WHAT He CAN do, of WHEN He CAN fulfill His Word…. Is of no consequence to me.

Davy, Keraz … God Bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken









And YOU continue to BYPASS those Bible Scriptures in your false rebuttals, showing that you HAVE NO INTENTION OF KEEPING THE ACTUAL BIBLE TEACHING BY CHRIST JESUS.
[/QUOTE]

 

[Taken]

‘Rapture to heaven’ believers say that people who dispute their theory just cannot see or understand that belief.
It’s what we don't see in the Bible, where the difference lies. Nowhere does scripture say God intends to take His people to heaven. In fact Jesus Himself says such a thing is impossible. John 3:13, John 7:34, Revelation 2:25-26, etc.

From the Beginning of manKind, and throughout the Centuries as manKind has multiplied…
All of manKind begins in ignorance of God…
And Learns Little by Little.

God Created and Made the Heaven and the Earth…

Created “AND” Made…two different things.
The Heaven…later revealed The Heaven”S”.
The Earth…SURFACE….manKinds ESTATE…YET…Vast Water Seas, Land Under the Seas, Vast Seas Under the Land Under the Seas, A mouton Crest of extreme Heat, Fire, IN the Earth….

And FYI…
Heaven is Above the Earth.
Men have routinely gone to the Lower Heavens.
Gods present Kingdom is ALL of Heaven.
All of Heaven IS Gods Throne.
** Gods “off limits” Estate Literally called…
WHERE His GLORY IS; and belongs exclusively to the Lord God Almighty…
CALL ABOVE the HeavenS.
** and YUP…no man has gone THERE.

 

[Davy]

So…what is YOUR POINT….SCRIPTURE IS FANTASY?
....

You posted a LOT of fantasy, because you try... to prove men's false pre-trib rapture theory is written in God's Word when it is not.

Do you remember Jim and Tammy Baker and the PTL Club? Jim Baker served prison time for abusing his ministry, which pushed what doctrine of man? The false pre-trib rapture theory.

But Baker said his prison sentence gave him time to really get into God's Word, and he said he learned from God's Word that the pre-trib rapture theory he had been teaching was false. Jim Baker now follows The New Testament which declares Jesus' future return as Post-trib.

 

[ewq1938]

Missing the rapture isnt something to be flippant about.

No one can miss the rapture. It just happens to take place once the trib is over according to scripture. A pre-trib rapture isn't biblical.

 

[Keraz]

God’s Holy People in the Last Days:
Isaiah 62:1-12... ..They will be called the holy people; the Redeemed of the Lord.

Daniel 8:23-26 In the last days, when sin is most prevalent, a powerful leader will arise. He will succeed in whatever he does, and will take control of the mighty nations and of God’s holy people. By cunning and deceit, his plans will come about and cause great harm to many when they least expect it. He will challenge even the Prince of Princes, but then will be broken, but not by human hand.
This prophecy tells of events to happen in the distant future.

Daniel 7:23-25 The explanation given is: There will be a 4th kingdom, one that will encompass the whole earth. Initially ten rulers will govern it, but another leader will take over all this kingdom. He will defy the Most High God and will conquer the holy ones of God.

Revelation 13:7 The ‘beast’ is allowed to wage war on God’s people and to defeat them…. Vividly described in Zechariah 14:1-2

Daniel 11:32 By plausible promises he will win over those who will violate the Covenant, but some will resolutely keep their faith.

The Covenant here, is the one between God and His people, for their protection.

The treaty, the 7 year peace agreement of Daniel 9:27, is between the Leader of the One World Govt, and the leaders of the Christian nation of Beulah. It will be broken by the leader of the OWG after the first 3 1/2 years. Daniel 11:31

These Bible prophesies are proof that God’s holy people, His chosen elect people; all those true born again Christian believers; the One people of God, Ephesians 4:4-6, are not removed from the earth, as some would like to think, but are present in the holy Land during the last few years of this age.

As we see in Daniel 11:32 and in Zechariah 14:2b, they divide into two groups, one remaining in the holy Land and the other goes away. Revelation 12:6-17 again shows these two groups; the faithful ones who refused the peace treaty with the leader of the World Govt, taken to a place of safety and those who did agree; Isaiah 28:14-15, must remain. Revelation 12:17

The fact of all the righteous Christians living in all of the Holy Land, before the Return of Jesus, is well prophesied in all of the Bible. Many do not see it because of false teachings and not comprehending the truth of how Christians are now to be the recipient’s of the promises of God, given initially to ethnic Israel, but now available to all true believers. 2 Corinthians 1:20

We Christians look forward to being at last the people God has always wanted in His holy Land.

That is our promise and our great privilege; to be alive to participate at this critical time of mankind’s history.
What I pray all will do, is see the real truth of what actually will happen.

Do you realize what a joke the rapture to heaven theory is? And Satan is delighted at how Christians argue over whether it going to be pre, mid or post!!!!!!!

For all of our lifetimes, this issue has been discussed, argued over, even fought over. Innumerable books, movies, etc, are made about it and still no consensus about when it could happen. There is no Bible verse that says God will take living people to heaven, but those who promote a rapture say; It is there, you just can't see it! Sorry, I can't see it because it isn't there!

There is a huge deception going on here. People have believed false teachers, Paul said they would. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

And God has allowed those wolves to ravage His flock. So most of the Church is not aware of what God really does plan for our future. They are complacent and careless, which means when the hard times come, they won't have the strength of faith to stand firm. Luke 21:34-36 [and don't think ‘escape all these things’, means a rapture, because that idea is pure assumption and conflicts with scriptures as above.]

 

[The Light]

No one can miss the rapture.

There are five foolish virgins that miss the rapture, and they represent half of the Church. The wise virgins are watching and ready for the Lord to come as instructed. The foolish don't think He is coming until after the great tribulation.

It just happens to take place once the trib is over according to scripture.

According to scripture there will be a rapture after the immediately after the tribulation. It's just not the Church being raptured as they are already in heaven. He comes when you think not.

Matthew 24
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

A pre-trib rapture isn't biblical.

Oh, it's Biblical. It's just that there are five wise and five foolish. The wise are watching and ready. And to those that look for him.........

Hebrews 9
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

[Douggg]

I was a solid pretrib rapture adherent. Then by listening to these guys too much (on a different forum) I thought they was right so I became post trib and didnt feel any peace in my spirit about it and I thought that was weird. So I pray about it. I studied some more. I prayed. I studied. Ding! I am pre trib and everything makes sense again. I did not make those decisions lightly!

Please, consider this rapture timing view, that I came up with, that does consider a pre-trib rapture as possible, but not for certain. I think this view would meet your sense of comfort of when the rapture takes place.

 

[The Light]

Please, consider this rapture timing view, that I came up with, that does consider a pre-trib rapture as possible, but not for certain. I think this view would meet your sense of comfort of when the rapture takes place.



View attachment 46485

Doug I think there are many errors in your chart.

1. The day of the Lord does not begin when the Abomination of Desolation is set up. The great tribulation begins at that time.
2. The millennium begins after the day of the Lord is over.
3. There is no scripture that says the covenant must be confirmed before the 70th week begins.

 

[Douggg]

Doug I think there are many errors in your chart.

1. The day of the Lord does not begin when the Abomination of Desolation is set up. The great tribulation begins at that time.

I agree with point 1. On my chart, the Antichrist commits "the transgression of desolation". It is an act that will precede the great tribulation, but does not trigger the great tribulation.

The Antichrist will commit that act. As a result in Ezekiel 28:1-10, God has the person assassinated. i.e. mortally wounded. Then in disdain for the person in Isaiah 14:18-20, God returns his soul back to his lifeless body. At that time, the person becomes the beast.

The false prophet will have a statue image made of the beast, and places it on the temple mount - the Abomination of Desolation - which triggers the beginning of the great tribulation.

If you will notice on my chart, I show the AoD, followed by the great tribulation.

2. The millennium begins after the day of the Lord is over.

The Day of the Lord is eternal. But it has segments. The beginning segment is during the 7 years, when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation. When Jesus returns, His second coming (on my chart) the millennium begins, shown on my chart.

3. There is no scripture that says the covenant must be confirmed before the 70th week begins.

Daniel 9:27, the prince who shall come will confirm the covenant for 7 years to begin the 70th week. It will be a big speech by the Antichrist from the temple mount, citing that God gave the land of Israel to the children of Israel as theirs forever. Moses, in Deuteronomy 31:9-13, made a requirement for all future leaders to make such a speech as long as they were in the land on a 7 year cycle.

Of course, it has not been done in recent times because of the Muslim presence on the temple mount. But following Gog/Magog with the Muslim presence removed, it will be possible.

 

[Davy]

Please, consider this rapture timing view, that I came up with, that does consider a pre-trib rapture as possible, but not for certain. I think this view would meet your sense of comfort of when the rapture takes place.

So you don't realize that claiming a pre-trib rapture being possible is actually in opposition to what Lord Jesus taught?

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV


Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV