Exploring Trinitarian Logic

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Wrangler

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you seem to do all the talking and evade all questions I’ve asked you so far?
I'm so glad you noticed this. Their refusal to honestly answer questions is the dead giveaway that part of them knows their dogma cannot be defended.

Rather than self reflect, they just go on offense all the time.

Jesus is not God and never will be.

Are you done yet, pushing your belief/ opinions onto me?

What are you trying to gain?
The #1 question for trinitarians to answer is why do they treat this dogma as if it is the central message of Scripture that one's salvation depends on it when not only is absent but contradicts Scripture?
 
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Lizbeth

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There there is no evidence whatsoever because converse statements are not true. Yes, all squares are rectangles but all rectangles are NOT squares.

"Son of Man" and "Son of God" are titles, not statements of biology. Your claim is analogous to Floyd Mayweather Jr is the best ever because he says so. Worse, because you say so.
Son of man speaks to His humanity. Son of God speaks to His Divinity.
 

Ritajanice

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We are born again as little babes
I’m not a babe anymore though Lizbeth..I’m growing in spiritual maturity and becoming more like Jesus, being conformed into his image..bearing the Spirit fruit...representing Jesus...Glorifying Gods Name and power...all you seem to do is glorify the Bible?

I’m still waiting to hear from you, on what the Spirit has taught you about God and his Son Jesus?

What about the fruit of the Spirit also?

You seem to have a lot to say........about what,....... is what I’d like to know?.. @Lizbeth
 

Wrangler

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I could post so many more scripts that reveal and attest to Who Jesus is
This is rich. Scripture is explicit that Jesus is a man chosen by God, anointed, aka "The Son of God." It makes this point over and over again.

To support the trinity, you have to ignore all this and invoke extreme eisegesis. We're not buying it. We rely on God's word, not manmade doctrines that contradict God's words.
 
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Lizbeth

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Yea. Same song, different tune.

Everybody knows the real passion for the trinity is the man-is-god thesis. The Original Sin.
Jesus said, "Why do you call me good? There is no one good but God." Ears to hear now brother. What was He implying? This man who was entirely without sin.
 

Ritajanice

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Yes I know what my calling is. I havent' seen you mention your calling at all, but I don't get around a whole lot. Think I'll just leave it here for now Rita, and let the thread get back on track.
Good idea...let’s get back on topic.

I am a non trinitarian...you are a trinitarian....so let’s respect the other’s beliefs...

No more to say to you on the subject.have a nice day.
 

Wrangler

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Jesus said, "Why do you call me good? There is no one good but God." Ears to hear now brother. What was He implying?
I'm glad you asked. This is a great example where trinitarians doctrinally invest in vague verses.

There are 2 inferences we can draw that are equally valid and one is that Jesus was implying that he is not God, which is consistent with him saying God is greater than he is, knows more than he is and God the Father is the only true God.
 
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Rich R

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Also the Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children.

Does the Spirit testify with our spirit that we are the children of Jesus...I think not.
The Spirit testified with my spirit the death and resurrection of Jesus....he did not testify to my spirit that Jesus is my Spiritual Father....I have one Father in Spirit, His Name is GOD!!
Jesus was the first fruits....we are his spirit brothers and sisters...we follow his representation of the Father, of course we could never represent the Father like Jesus did as he was perfection in himself....as a sister/ brother, we are being transformed into his image...by the power who indwells our spirit, the Holy Spirit....a Born Again are partakers Of the divine nature..which stands to reason as our spirit has been birthed into the Spirit of Christ...Born Again is a Living spirit birth, it ain’t something that you can read into being..it comes by = supernatural divine heart revelation....Spirit gives birth to spirit.....who brings us to understanding scripture, ourselves, I think not...only the Spirit can reveal to our spirit the truth of Gods word.
Humans get it wrong as we well know....we have also been given the gift of discernment...we only have one teacher/ helper...his name in the Holy Spirit.

You have only got to look at all the denominations in this world to see the confusion..that is the enemies goal..to confuse and keep us away from God’s truth....you stay fully focused on the Spirit with those spiritual eyes and ears that we have...he will keep us on that narrow path....then remember the scheming ways of the enemy, anything we think that tries to take us away from God is Of the devil...
I never looked at the angle that we are not Jesus' children. We absolutely are not his children. We're his brothers and sisters. Good point!
 
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Lizbeth

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You're brainwashed. Jesus is a man FROM/OF God but not a deity himself. What do you make of this verse, There is one God, the Father?
Jhn 10:30

I and my Father are one.

Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.


If even unbelieving Jews knew what Jesus was saying, and attempted to stone Him to death for it, then how come there are supposedly believing Christians who don’t? And they also throw stones at those who do.


Jhn 14:7-9

If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?



Jhn 16:27-31

For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.


His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?


See how important it is to know and believe in Who He is?
 
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Ritajanice

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From another non trinitarian.

Bible Verses That Indicate Jesus Is Not God The Creator

1. Matthew 24:36
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.
Here Jesus makes a distinction between what he knows and what the Father knows.

2. Matthew 26:39
My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me, yet not as I will, but as Thou will.
Jesus’ will is likewise autonomous from God’s Will. Jesus is seeking acquiescence to God’s will.

3. John 5:26
For as the Father has life in Himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.
Jesus received his life from God. God received his life from no one. He is eternally self-existent.

4. John 5:30
By myself, I can do nothing: I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who has sent me.
Jesus says, “by myself, I can do nothing.” This indicates that Jesus is relying upon his own relationship with God. He is not trying to “please myself” but rather is seeking to “please the one who sent me.”

5. John 5:19
The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees the Father doing, because whatever the Father does, the Son does also.
Jesus declares that he is following a pattern laid down by God. He is expressing obedience to God.

6. Mark 10:18
Why do you call me good? No one is good, except God alone.
Here Jesus emphatically makes a distinction between himself and God.

7. John 14:28
The Father is greater than I.
This is another strong statement that makes a distinction between Jesus and God.

8. Matthew 6:9
Our Father, which art in Heaven.
He didn’t pray, Our Father, which art standing right here!”

9. Matthew 27:46
My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Inconceivable if he is God the Creator.

10. John 17:21-23
. . .that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. . ..that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me.
In this prayer Jesus defines the term “to be one.” It is clearly accomplished through the relationship of two autonomous beings. Christian believers are to model their relationship (to become one) after the relationship of God and Christ (as God and Christ are one). Notice that “to be one” does not mean to be “one and the same.”

11. 1 Corinthians 15:27-28
For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Paul declares that God put everything under Christ, except God himself. Instead God rules all things through Christ. (remember: “through him all things were made.”)

12. Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being.
Jesus is the exact representation of his being. I send my representative to Congress. He is not me, myself. He is my representative.

13. Hebrews 4:15 (compared with James 1:13)
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet without sin.
Jesus has been tempted in every way, just as we are, yet he never sinned. See

James 1:13: When tempted, no one should say, God is tempting me. For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt.
Jesus was tempted in every way, but God cannot be tempted. This is why Jesus said, “don’t call me good, none are good, only God.”

14. Hebrews 5:7-9
During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
Jesus had to walk a course of faith and obedience in order to achieve perfection. By achieving perfection, Jesus “became” the source of eternal salvation
 

Hepzibah

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Jesus Is Not God The Creator
That is correct...Jesus is not God the Father, the Source of all things. Jesus was begotten, and the Holy Spirit, proceeded from the Father .

We have two sides battling, and sometimes being nasty with each other, when each of them are on the extreme edges.

God the Father existed in eternity, having no beginning or end, and who, being spirit, could not create and enter into the physical realm without His Son, whom was brought forth by Him at the beginning of creation. Jesus was the start of creation. We cannot envisage how this could be but scripture and the apostolic fathers, the ones who were not apostate, said so and so we much accept it.
 
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CadyandZoe

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How do you know that?
We follow Paul's argument. We ask, "how does his wording make the point he wants to make?" We begin with the topic at issue.

Philippians 2:3 Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;
He exhorts his readers to foster a sense of mutual respect, where each of them regards the other "as more important than themselves." It's about fostering a sense of community and mutual respect, where everyone's well-being is valued.

Philippians 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus . . .

The Lord is our model. We emulate his attitude toward doing nothing out of selfishness or empty conceit. Just as the Lord considered others as being more important than himself (even though he is the most important person in existence) we are also to consider others as being more important than us.

To emulate the Lord's self-emptying, we must relinquish our status, self-importance, and vain glory.
 

Ritajanice

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That is correct...Jesus is not God the Father, the Source of all things. Jesus was begotten, and the Holy Spirit, proceeded from the Father .

We have two sides battling, and sometimes being nasty with each other, when each of them are on the extreme edges.
I don’t think anyone is being really nasty to each other on this thread.
God the Father existed in eternity, having no beginning or end, and who, being spirit, could not create and enter into the physical realm without His Son, whom was brought forth by Him at the beginning of creation. Jesus was the start of creation.
Jesus was not the start of creation...with respect, your opinion makes no sense above.
We cannot envisage how this could be but scripture and the apostolic fathers, the ones who were not apostate, said so and so we much accept it.
I don’t have to accept anything...my knowledge and heart revelation comes from the Holy Spirit who indwells my spirit...

He testifies Of The Father to my spirit, God is my spirit Father...he testifies Of Jesus to my spirit, he is Gods Son , who God sent as his representative....Jesus is my Spirit Brother, he is not my Father....

Jesus died and was resurrected, the first fruit of all those who will become Born of the Spirit..and be conformed into Jesus image.
For they are the spiritual brothers and sisters of Jesus...we are the spirit children of God.

We need to accept that as it’s biblical.
 
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Wrangler

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Jesus was not the start of creation
From a theological perspective, I have no problem with God's idea of Creation began with how to save the future fall through Anointing one for that purpose.

@Matthias might be able to explain better than me that this is a different take than the logos was created as a Spirit Being before being conceived in Mary's womb. Let's call this as Anastasia called it, a double begotten. Instead, let's be in awe of God's plan, his logos of Creation began with this future servant. The plan is literal at the beginning of Creation, not a man (Jesus) before the heavens and Earth or before the 6th day.

Now here is where humility is required. We don't have to know beyond what God revealed to us. Trinitarians feel obligated to create a doctrinal house of cards built upon one speculation after another. It's elaborate sophistry and defies what we know. This is the anti-logic of trinitarianism.
 

Ritajanice

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  • Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
    2 Corinthians 3:17freedomSpirit
  • Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.
    Romans 15:13faithSpirithope
  • What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
    1 Corinthians 6:19-20worshipSpiritlife
  • And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever.
    John 14:16comforterFatherpentecost
  • But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
    John 14:26comforterFatherlearning
  • Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
    1 Corinthians 3:16holinessSpiritchurch
  • And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
    Acts 2:3-4speakingSpiritpentecost
  • And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
    Ezekiel 36:27Spiritlawfollowing
  • And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
    Romans 5:5hopeheartSpirit
  • And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
    Ephesians 4:30sadness
 

Ritajanice

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Now here is where humility is required. We don't have to know beyond what God revealed to us
Exactly 100% Amen!

I only hear the Spirit, I do not hear from man/ woman...unless the Spirit speaks through them to my spirit....I’m very well tuned into the Spirit, I should be after 33 yrs of walking in faith ...of course I’ll never stop learning from him till the day I die....I know his voice more and more and then I know the voice of a stranger, if you get my drift..
I post what I believe the Spirit is talking through me...I’m not saying that I don’t go off on my own tangent at times,LOL.

I’m very secure in what the Spirit has revealed to my spirit....it all comes in his timing what I post, that is my opinion/ belief...
 
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