Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[MonoBiblical]

You are not understanding that the FATHER-WORD-HOLY SPIRIT Authored the Holy Scriptures.

Ah, Muslim or Islamic standards of monotheism. The wholly Koran is inerrant.

 

[APAK]

Trinitarians cannot examine themselves for honesty and integrity because their dogma is inherently contradictory. The passion for the man-is-god thesis is so severe, they now wish to suppress trinitarianism:

1. God is a committee made up of 3 members.
2. One committee member, by himself, is fully God (Jesus).

Both of these are anti-Scriptural. The 1C informs us of God's singular nature (me) + 7,000 other verses. And God's name is YHWH (not Jesus), who we relate to as Father (not brother).


that they may know that you alone, whose name is Yahweh, are the Most High over all the earth.
Ps 83:18 (REV)

Well as you well know, these facts you presented do not deter the daring and the intrepid and outlandish discerners of scripture.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm OK with name calling. I follow Jesus and the Bible, not manmade "tenets."

Did you just ignore the rest of my post because it does not suit you?

Saying you are not Christian UNLESS you believe that Jesus is God is NOT name-calling.
I don't actually engage in name-calling.

And who are these man-made tenets you speak of?

You mean the rest of my post to which you did not reply?
Do you mean the Apostles and their writings, which is what JESUS (the man you claim to be following) taught them and THEY taught that He is God.
Do you mean those that came after the Apostles and continued in the creation of the church?

Or do you think that we skipped from Acts to present day USA and everything that came inbetween is just nonsense?

Do you believe that Jesus founded a church?

What DO YOU BELIEVE JESUS' MISSION WAS?

And why would it be important if He was just another prophet?
They were sent by God too.

Maybe you'd like to reply to my comparison of Isaiah and Revelation showing that GOD is the Alpha and the Omega and JOHN, one of the Apostles, stated that JESUS IS THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA.

 

[Wrangler]

Did you just ignore the rest of my post because it does not suit you?

No. I ignored it for time sake. You cannot reconcile my first point to your string of errors. LOL

You mean the rest of my post to which you did not reply?
Do you mean the Apostles and their writings, which is what JESUS (the man you claim to be following) taught them and THEY taught that He is God.

False Witness. All of the Bible, with the exception of Luke is written by unitarian Jews who reject the trinity to this day. No verse teaches Jesus is God. All the Gospels teach he is a man anointed by God. Jesus did not teach the trinity.

 

[APAK]

And this is the very thing you do and far far worse when you say the Word was "a god"

RECKLESS CONDEMNING VENTURE = calling the LORD "a god"

TRUTH that leads to Eternal LIFE = "the Word was God", "I and My Father are One" , "I am HE" , "LORD Jesus Christ the Savior"

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and was and is to come—the Almighty.
When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. But He placed His right hand on me and said,
“Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, the Living One.

Who has performed this and carried it out, calling forth the generations from the beginning?
I, the LORD—the first and the last—I am He.”

“Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.

Now enough of this constant insane lying David. I never said such things. Either you are unfortunately mentally challenged or you are a deliberate agitator.

Go on and serve your own god and I will worship and serve the one God, YHWH my creator.

Bye...

 

[Johann]

And this is the very thing you do and far far worse when you say the Word was "a god"

RECKLESS CONDEMNING VENTURE = calling the LORD "a god"

TRUTH that leads to Eternal LIFE = "the Word was God", "I and My Father are One" , "I am HE" , "LORD Jesus Christ the Savior"

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and was and is to come—the Almighty.
When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. But He placed His right hand on me and said,
“Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, the Living One.

Who has performed this and carried it out, calling forth the generations from the beginning?
I, the LORD—the first and the last—I am He.”

“Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.

No need to engage him brother-a futile exercise.

J.

 

[APAK]

No. I ignored it for time sake. You cannot reconcile my first point to your string of errors. LOL


False Witness. All of the Bible, with the exception of Luke is written by unitarian Jews who reject the trinity to this day. No verse teaches Jesus is God. All the Gospels teach he is a man anointed by God. Jesus did not teach the trinity.

I guess I awoke a the mob or a crowd on the topic of the expressions 'the First and the Last,' 'the alpha and Omega.' Now these folks of using it, and against you or me, and have not a clue of why and how it applies to either God or his Son unfortunately...shame

 

[GodsGrace]

I guess I awoke a the mob or a crowd on the topic of the expressions 'the First and the Last,' 'the alpha and Omega.' Now these folks of using it, and against you or me, and have not a clue of why and how it applies to either God or his Son unfortunately...shame

Actually APAK,,,,I've been sick and just got back.
I NEVER read your post about the first and the last.
It's actually in Isaiah referring to GOD FATHER....
and
it's in Rev 1:17 referring to GOD SON
or
John made a mistake in writing it maybe.

Maybe John is not to be trusted in his writings?

Since @Wrangler is not willing, perhaps YOU could explain this?
I really dislike conflict in the bible.

 

[Taken]

”the begotten Son of God”…”while REMAINING IN God.”….

this is MOST important and few SEE even though it is written: "I and My FATHER are ONE"

and again, "No one has ever yet seen God. The only begotten God, the One being in the bosom of the Father, He has made Him known."

John 14:
[11a] Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me:

 

[GodsGrace]

No. I ignored it for time sake. You cannot reconcile my first point to your string of errors. LOL


False Witness. All of the Bible, with the exception of Luke is written by unitarian Jews who reject the trinity to this day. No verse teaches Jesus is God. All the Gospels teach he is a man anointed by God. Jesus did not teach the trinity.

Would that be the same Jews that were abolished from the synogague because they beleived that Jesus was God?

And perhaps you 'd like to clear up that conflict created by John by calling Jesus the Alpha and the Omega?

Isaiah 44:6
Rev 1:17-18

 

[APAK]

Actually APAK,,,,I've been sick and just got back.
I NEVER read your post about the first and the last.
It's actually in Isaiah referring to GOD FATHER....
and
it's in Rev 1:17 referring to GOD SON
or
John made a mistake in writing it maybe.

Maybe John is not to be trusted in his writings?

Since @Wrangler is not willing, perhaps YOU could explain this?
I really dislike conflict in the bible.

Sorry for your mal heath..get well very soon..I will get back with you on your query GG...

 

[Wrangler]

And perhaps you 'd like to clear up that conflict created by John by calling Jesus the Alpha and the Omega?

Isaiah 44:6
Rev 1:17-18

<sigh> There is no conflict. Context will clear up confusion.
1st. Prophets speak the words of God but that does not make them God. Neither Isaiah nor John nor Jesus are God OR all the prophets are God.
Isaiah 44:6 (REV) This is what Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of Armies, says: “I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God except me.

Can you recognize this verse is saying Jesus is not God but YHWH, alone is God?

2nd. What I like about the VOICE translation's manuscript format is it makes explicit who is talking, which can be confusing sometimes. In this case, you are mistaken in claiming John is doing the talking, calling Jesus the Alpha and the Omega for it is Jesus himself, who is quoting God, just as Isaiah quoted God.

Also, it is important to point out that the chapter begins by proving that Jesus is not God, for it is God who gave Jesus the revelation, right?
Rev 1:1 This is a revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him

Revelation 1:17-18 (VOICE)
The One: This is not the time for fear; I am the First and the Last, 18 and I am the living One. I entered the realm of the dead; but see, I am alive now and for all the ages—even ages to come. [Amen.][a] I possess the keys to open the prison of death and hades.

Notice the difference? Jesus is not claiming to be God like YHWH did in Isaiah 44:6. Before I continue with the analysis of what is in common, I'll give you a chance to answer my 3 questions to verify we have the correct context understood:

1. Rev 1:1 proves the resurrected Jesus in heaven is STILL not God, for God - in his unitarian nature - gave Jesus the revelation, correct?
2. Can you recognize Isaiah 44:6 is saying YHWH alone is God? (Not Jesus is God)
3. Notice the difference with Rev 1:17-18, Jesus is not claiming to be God like YHWH does in Is 44:6?

 

[GodsGrace]

No. I ignored it for time sake. You cannot reconcile my first point to your string of errors. LOL


False Witness. All of the Bible, with the exception of Luke is written by unitarian Jews who reject the trinity to this day. No verse teaches Jesus is God. All the Gospels teach he is a man anointed by God. Jesus did not teach the trinity.

Just thought of something W....
The Jews were believers in ONE GOD...we all know this....common knowledge.

This is why they stoned Jesus,,,because He claimed to be God.
John 10:33
31The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.
32Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?”
33The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”

And to the above Jesus replied:
John 10:38-39
...understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”
39Therefore they were seeking again to seize Him, and He eluded their grasp.

Heres's something very logical for those reading along on a thread about logic:
Jesus was either:
1. A LIAR
2. A LUNATIC
3. GOD

 

[GodsGrace]

<sigh> There is no conflict. Context will clear up confusion.
1st. Prophets speak the words of God but that does not make them God. Neither Isaiah nor John nor Jesus are God OR all the prophets are God.
Isaiah 44:6 (REV) This is what Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of Armies, says: “I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God except me.

Can you recognize this verse is saying Jesus is not God but YHWH, alone is God?

2nd. What I like about the VOICE translation's manuscript format is it makes explicit who is talking, which can be confusing sometimes. In this case, you are mistaken in claiming John is doing the talking, calling Jesus the Alpha and the Omega for it is Jesus himself, who is quoting God, just as Isaiah quoted God.

Also, it is important to point out that the chapter begins by proving that Jesus is not God, for it is God who gave Jesus the revelation, right?
Rev 1:1 This is a revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him

Revelation 1:17-18 (VOICE)
The One: This is not the time for fear; I am the First and the Last, 18 and I am the living One. I entered the realm of the dead; but see, I am alive now and for all the ages—even ages to come. [Amen.][a] I possess the keys to open the prison of death and hades.

Notice the difference? Jesus is not claiming to be God like YHWH did in Isaiah 44:6. Before I continue with the analysis of what is in common, I'll give you a chance to answer my 3 questions to verify we have the correct context understood:

1. Rev 1:1 proves the resurrected Jesus in heaven is STILL not God, for God - in his unitarian nature - gave Jesus the revelation, correct?
2. Can you recognize Isaiah 44:6 is saying YHWH alone is God? (Not Jesus is God)
3. Notice the difference with Rev 1:17-18, Jesus is not claiming to be God like YHWH does in Is 44:6?

Here's what I, and every other Christian, sees W:

Isaiah is stating that God Father is the Alpha and the Omega.
John is stating that Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega.

If you could reconcile that for us,,,it would be good.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry for your mal heath..get well very soon..I will get back with you on your query GG...

I'm OK. It's the Australian flu over here. We wish it had stayed in Australia!

I'm serious APAK...the early Christians went to their death by believing that Jesus is God.. This is what the early Christians were taught and we have proof of it. They had to sign an oath to the emperor or they'd be killed. They preferred to go to their death.....would you go to your death for a mere man? No. They believed Jesus was God. It's in written documents but unless one is interested in history,,,they will n ever know about such writings.

If I'm speaking to a JW I can expect to have to defend Jesus and the Trinity.
If I'm speaking to another CHRSITIAN this should not be necessary.

This is not name-calling as @Wrangler has accused me of....it's just a plain and simple fact.
If Jesus is not God....there is no Christianity but only the Jewish faith.

The early Christians were abolished from the synagogue because they believed Jesus was God, as they were taught by the Apostles.

We also have writings from those that the Apostles taught.
There is no doubt on this.

IOW,,,some doctrine cannot be a matter of opinion.

And yes, I'd like Isaiah 44:6 and Rev 1:17-18 and Rev 22:12-13 to be reconciled.

 

[GodsGrace]

<sigh> There is no conflict. Context will clear up confusion.
1st. Prophets speak the words of God but that does not make them God. Neither Isaiah nor John nor Jesus are God OR all the prophets are God.
Isaiah 44:6 (REV) This is what Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of Armies, says: “I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God except me.

Can you recognize this verse is saying Jesus is not God but YHWH, alone is God?

2nd. What I like about the VOICE translation's manuscript format is it makes explicit who is talking, which can be confusing sometimes. In this case, you are mistaken in claiming John is doing the talking, calling Jesus the Alpha and the Omega for it is Jesus himself, who is quoting God, just as Isaiah quoted God.

Correct. So JESUS is saying He's the alpha and the omega.
Perfectly proving my point that, perhaps, he was just a crazy man.
or
He's God.

 

[David in NJ]

Ah, Muslim or Islamic standards of monotheism. The wholly Koran is inerrant.

i am a Trinuptualarian

 

[Wrangler]

Correct. So JESUS is saying He's the alpha and the omega.
Perfectly proving my point that, perhaps, he was just a crazy man.
or
He's God.

Willful ignorance. If any man says these words it makes them God or just one particular man?

Scripture is explicit who God is and it is not Jesus. Trinitarians reject this and invent all kinds of rationalizations to back door their dogma into text that does no teach it. There is one God, the Father.

 

[Wrangler]

<sigh> There is no conflict. Context will clear up confusion.
1st. Prophets speak the words of God but that does not make them God. Neither Isaiah nor John nor Jesus are God OR all the prophets are God.
Isaiah 44:6 (REV) This is what Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of Armies, says: “I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God except me.

Can you recognize this verse is saying Jesus is not God but YHWH, alone is God?

2nd. What I like about the VOICE translation's manuscript format is it makes explicit who is talking, which can be confusing sometimes. In this case, you are mistaken in claiming John is doing the talking, calling Jesus the Alpha and the Omega for it is Jesus himself, who is quoting God, just as Isaiah quoted God.

Also, it is important to point out that the chapter begins by proving that Jesus is not God, for it is God who gave Jesus the revelation, right?
Rev 1:1 This is a revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him

Revelation 1:17-18 (VOICE)
The One: This is not the time for fear; I am the First and the Last, 18 and I am the living One. I entered the realm of the dead; but see, I am alive now and for all the ages—even ages to come. [Amen.][a] I possess the keys to open the prison of death and hades.

Notice the difference? Jesus is not claiming to be God like YHWH did in Isaiah 44:6. Before I continue with the analysis of what is in common, I'll give you a chance to answer my 3 questions to verify we have the correct context understood:

1. Rev 1:1 proves the resurrected Jesus in heaven is STILL not God, for God - in his unitarian nature - gave Jesus the revelation, correct?
2. Can you recognize Isaiah 44:6 is saying YHWH alone is God? (Not Jesus is God)
3. Notice the difference with Rev 1:17-18, Jesus is not claiming to be God like YHWH does in Is 44:6?

Pathological refusal to answer questions.

Heres's something very logical for those reading along on a thread about logic:
Jesus was either:
1. A LIAR
2. A LUNATIC
3. GOD

False Alternative. Jesus is precisely what the Gospels proclaim, nothing more and nothing less; God’s Anointed (solution to the problem of reconciliation due to sin, requiring a sacrifice to the death).

 

[Taken]

Exploring Trinitarian Logic

Trinity “LOGIC” is a misnomer.

Logic is how the MIND lands on a conclusion to Believe something, BETWEEN this and that.

The Trinity is a Spiritual Belief of the spirit of (some) men Which Believe the WHOLENESS of God:
IS uncreated, everlasting, invisible, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscience…
God has many names, Titles, Descriptions…
And has the all encompassing TITLE:
Lord God Almighty.

You can read the Scriptures…reading, WHO… at any time is said to Be:
Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient …
(All powerful), (Ever present), (All Knowing)…

Any /All of Those things APPLY to ONLY God!

Not a mystery to search the Scriptures for the Knowledge…and discover “WHO” is the Whole of God called:
The holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which WAS, IS and IS to come.

Glory to God,
Taken