Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[St. SteVen]

Amen!

What became of this?

Jesus, imo..has been in existence before the foundation of the world...only not in human form....he was with the word...the word being God...

And this.

Thanks for voicing what you believe./ opinion.

???

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[Ritajanice]

What became of this?


And this.

???

[

No idea what you are trying to say here?

 

[Johann]

John 1:1-5 says nothing about the pre-existence of Christ.

I am astonished that @Ritajanice can grasp this, yet you cannot-even if I were to provide you with scripture demonstrating the Messiah's preexistence, you would remain unconvinced.

J.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
In fact, the Word (Logos) was with God, and the Word (Logos) was God.

This is a play on words. The work of a person is not another person.

God is love. Agree, or disagree?

[

 

[David in NJ]

"THE GOSPEL OF JOHN"

The Pre-existence Of Christ (1:1-5)

INTRODUCTION
The gospel of John was written for a simple purpose...
To produce faith in Jesus as the Christ, the Son of God - Jn 20:30-31a
To share the "life" that comes through such faith - Jn 20:31b
To encourage us to have faith in Jesus Christ...
John begins his gospel with a prologue - Jn 1:1-18
In which he makes several claims as to who Jesus was
He refers to Jesus in this prologue as "the Word"
That he refers to Jesus is evident from verses 14-18

The very first claim pertains to the pre-existence of Christ...
That He existed in the beginning, long before being born of Mary - cf. Jn 1:1-2
That His work in the beginning has great significance for us - cf. Jn 1:3-5
[John is not alone in proclaiming "The Pre-Existence Of Christ." Elsewhere in the Scriptures we find...]

EVIDENCE FOR THE PRE-EXISTENCE OF CHRIST
FORETOLD BY THE PROPHETS...

Micah prophesied of the pre-existence of the Messiah to come - Mic 5:2
Isaiah spoke of the King to come as "Everlasting Father" - Isa 9:6-7
Zechariah recorded the Messiah's own promise to come - Zech 2:10-11

AFFIRMED BY JESUS HIMSELF...
In His claim to have existed in Abraham's day - Jn 8:56-58
In His prayer shortly before His arrest and crucifixion - Jn 17:4-5,24
In the revelation He gave to John - Re 22:13

DECLARED BY HIS APOSTLES...
By John in his gospel, and also his epistle - Jn 1:1-4; 1Jn 2:14
By Paul in his epistles
To the church in Corinth - 1Co 10:1-4; 2Co 8:9
To the church in Philippi - Php 2:5-8
To the church in Colosse - Col 1:16-17

ILLUSTRATED BY THE CREATION...
All things were created by Jesus - Jn 1:3; He 1:2-3
Necessitating His existence before creation - Col 1:16-17
Implying His own eternal power and divine nature - Ro 1:20
[These are remarkable claims concerning Jesus, even blasphemous if not true. Yet if true (and John's gospel is design to prove that it is), consider...]

SIGNIFICANCE OF THE PRE-EXISTENCE OF CHRIST
HE IS DEITY...!

Especially when we consider the nature of His pre-existence
His going forths were "from everlasting" - cf. Mic 5:2
He was the eternal "I Am" - Jn 8:58; cf. Exo 3:13-14
As made clear in John's prologue - Jn 1:1-2
He was "with" God (implying a personal communion with God)
He "was" God (explicitly stating His deity)
-- Thus He is worthy of our love and adoration - cf. Jn 20:28
HE IS LIFE...!
By virtue of being the Creator and the Sustainer of life
All things were made by Him - Col 1:16
All things are held together (NASV, NRSV) by Him - Col 1:17
Again, as John makes clear in his prologue - Jn 1:3-4
Without Him, nothing was made
In Him was life itself
-- Thus He gives us hope for our own resurrection! - cf. Jn 5:21; 11:25

HE IS LIGHT...!
We live in a world of darkness...
Where people spend their lives stumbling in ignorance
Alienated from the life of God because of their ignorance - cf. Ep 4:17-19
As the Creator and Sustainer of life itself...
Jesus is uniquely qualified to bring light into the world - Jn 1:4
He calls for us to believe that we might become "sons of light" - Jn 12:35-36
-- Thus Jesus offers us the "light of life" - Jn 8:12

CONCLUSION
Sadly, many resist the life and light Jesus offers...
Some tried to destroy Him, but did not succeed - cf. Jn 1:5 (NRSV)
Many try to avoid Him, knowing that it will mean changes to their lifestyle - cf. Jn 3:19-20
But for those willing to come to Jesus...
He offers us hope and guidance in this life - cf. Mic 5:4-5a
He is capable of fulfilling His promises - cf. Mt 11:28-30
For He is no mere man, whose existence began when born by Mary, but "whose goings forth are from of old, From everlasting." - Mic 5:2

J.

HalleluYAH

 

[Ritajanice]

I am astonished that @Ritajanice can grasp this, yet you cannot-even if I were to provide you with scripture demonstrating the Messiah's preexistence, you would remain unconvinced.

J.

Why are you so astonished that I can grasp it?..lol.

 

[Wrangler]

Therefore, Jesus memory of having been with the Father in the beginning was as the Logos (Word) of God.

This is trinitarian dogma, which has no support in Scripture. Nothing says Jesus was precarnate God’s logos.

Have you ever considered why John 1 does not say God was made flesh if that was he intended to communicate? Do you understand why it says the logos was made flesh - beyond the trinitarian dogma? (Hint: Try reading the whole Gospel, especially chapter 1 up to verse 45 and the references to Jesus being an expected prophet.)

 

[St. SteVen]

No idea what you are trying to say here?

Your replies are all over the place.
You don't seem to have a coherent stance.
Are you anti-Trinitarian, or aren't you?

Ritajanice said:
Jesus, imo..has been in existence before the foundation of the world...only not in human form....he was with the word...the word being God...
[

 

[Ritajanice]

St. SteVen said:
In fact, the Word (Logos) was with God, and the Word (Logos) was God.

God is love. Agree, or disagree?

[

Once I became Born Again, I was filled with his Love in my heart/ spirit ,it was the most overwhelming Love that I have ever experienced in my whole life... Gods Love is the most powerful Love on the planet ,it’s mind blowing ....he never stops loving us, my testimony and of course all Glory and power to the Love Of God...Mighty, Mighty powerful.

 

[David in NJ]

I am astonished that @Ritajanice can grasp this, yet you cannot-even if I were to provide you with scripture demonstrating the Messiah's preexistence, you would remain unconvinced.

J.

@Johann and @St. SteVen

@St. SteVen is correct in this TRUTH = the WORD became flesh, the flesh body of the WORD did not come into existence until
it was placed inside the womb of Mary with the SPIRIT of the WORD by the HOLY SPIRIT


Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30So the angel told her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31Behold, you will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to give Him the name Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David, 33and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever. His kingdom will never end!”

34“How can this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”

The angel replied, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you.
So the Holy One to be born will be called the Son of God.

 

[Ritajanice]

Your replies are all over the place.
You don't seem to have a coherent stance.
Are you anti-Trinitarian, or aren't you?

According to you they are...I can live with that.

Ritajanice said:
Jesus, imo..has been in existence before the foundation of the world...only not in human form....he was with the word...the word being God...
[

I’ve been on the fence......Jesus has always been with God....from the beginning...God didn’t just conjure him up did he?

What does God say about seeking him with all our heart @St. SteVen ?

You think you got all the answers, I think not.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Therefore, Jesus memory of having been with the Father in the beginning was as the Logos (Word) of God.

This is trinitarian dogma, which has no support in Scripture. Nothing says Jesus was precarnate God’s logos.

No support? I provided the scripture?

The Word (Logos) was in the beginning. The Word (Logos) became flesh. (Jesus)

Have you ever considered why John 1 does not say God was made flesh if that was he intended to communicate? Do you understand why it says the logos was made flesh - beyond the trinitarian dogma? (Hint: Try reading the whole Gospel, especially chapter 1 up to verse 45 and the references to Jesus being an expected prophet.)

John 1 does not say God was made flesh?
Let's try this again. (sigh)

The Word (Logos) was God. The Word (Logos) became flesh. (Jesus)

The beginning of the chapter is foundational, not tertiary.

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[St. SteVen]

You think you got all the answers, I think not.

No. But I think my position is coherent. (not on the fence)
And I did provide full support.

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[Wrangler]

St. SteVen said:
In fact, the Word (Logos) was with God, and the Word (Logos) was God.

God is love. Agree, or disagree?

[

No, not literally! God is a person, the Supreme Being. His actions might be love at times but Scripture also tells us God hates, acts with Grace, mercy and justice.

To say a person is a virtue (like love) or a vice (like evil, the devil or Hitler are evil) is figurative use of language, specifically personification.

 

[APAK]

I am astonished that @Ritajanice can grasp this, yet you cannot-even if I were to provide you with scripture demonstrating the Messiah's preexistence, you would remain unconvinced.

J.

I'm surprised, maybe not, she would fall for all the BS you just spewed out. Blind leading the blind. You are confused as she is more. What a sad state of affairs.

 

[Ritajanice]

No. But I think my position is coherent. (not on the fence)
And I did provide full support.

[

According to you, you did, not according to wrangler.

 

[Ritajanice]

I'm surprised, maybe not, she would fall for all the BS you just spewed out. Blind leading the blind. You are confused as she is more. What a sad state of affairs.

Wow!....in your opinion, yet, you can’t show where I posted my emotions or discuss in a respectful, civilised manner..lol.

Discuss my posts @APAK ....instead of attacking them, with no scriptural support?

 

[Wrangler]

I think my position is coherent.

Supposing 3-is1-ism, contrary to Scripture is THE EXACT OPPOSITE of coherent.

 

[Johann]

I'm surprised, maybe not, she would fall for all the BS you just spewed out. Blind leading the blind. You are confused as she is more. What a sad state of affairs.

You know what, @APAK, I honestly couldn’t care less about your arguments. The core doctrines concerning the Messiah are under relentless attack-His cross, death, burial, resurrection, and even His Deity are being redefined on this forum.

It appears that you and Wrangler have positioned yourselves as gatekeepers of erroneous doctrines, especially regarding the Deity of Christ Jesus, our great God and Savior.

There is no respectful dialogue here anymore- instead, what we see is a full-scale war against the Triune Godhead.

Now, exegete John 1:1 for me-the most hated verse in Scripture. Let’s see if you’re capable of handling it properly.

J.

 

[St. SteVen]

@Johann and @St. SteVen

@St. SteVen is correct in this TRUTH = the WORD became flesh, the flesh body of the WORD did not come into existence until
it was placed inside the womb of Mary with the SPIRIT of the WORD by the HOLY SPIRIT

Right.

Most of Christianity claims that the Word (Logos) of God is Jesus.
This is incorrect. IMHO

Jesus was not the Word (Logos). The Word (Logos) BECAME Jesus. (flesh)

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