Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[APAK]

John 10:17 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again.
John 10:18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”

I understand John 10:17-18 differently, in the sense what Jesus said close to His capture.

Matt 26:53 Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels?

Jesus could escape his cruel death any time, that's what the Father told Him in v18.

Praise the Father He gave the Son an escape.
Praise Jesus He did not!

So John 10:30 - I and the Father are one stands on his own and if you are looking for a connection see the next verses -

John 10:31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him.
John 10:32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?”
John 10:33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”

The Jews understood what Jesus was claiming, why don't you.

No it does not PD. You have deliberately moved the goal posts to get to an answer that you want to hear, that is not there at all. You have wasted your time, once again.

And Matt 26:53 is completely irrelevant to this discussion, It only confuses....not worth adding any more discussion about it.

And I also said, if you read my post, that Jesus could also decline being the sacrifice for our redemption, being sinful and with blemish....etc.

And then you COMPLETELY disregarded and short-circuited the entire context and verses, as if they never existed at all, before verse 31, as your clear intention, as the typical triuner, is your childish over eagerness to quick draw or knee jerk again into saying or announcing that Jesus is God, How ignorant!

The Pharisees stones him, besides for the several accusations by Christ beforehand, before this section of scripture, that his miracles and other actions (verse 32) were all carried out by his Father, God within him. They could not understand or want to understand, as you dare not either, to know that God was in his Son wielding his power through his Son. He was the Son of God, for God's sake!

They already at least knew he was just a man (verse 33) and you don't even acknowledge that point made. They did not know that Jesus was just more than a prophet, he was God's agent and his Father lived in him...I in you and you in me as other scripture that say, I and my Father are one (verse 30)..they are in each other, even as a believer is in Christ, as we are one also with Christ and thus the Father//very much like verse 30. Can you dig that point! It should be a major point of understanding in a believers life to know and believe in...

You have exposed your critical weakness in you irrational conclusion as you do not believe really the scripture about how God works through his Son, this man we call the true Son of God. So of course as the Pharisees could not believe this either, as their Law and OT teaching did not allow for a man to be working on par with God, even as a Messiah, although it was foretold in the scripture before they were born. And then what is your excuse to believe he is truly the Son of God, as you have scripture they did not have?!

They had to call him a man wanting to be God or acting as their God, of Abraham. And they of course called this situation with Jesus blasphemous. They really did not want to admit he was the Son of God, who have certain privileges and the power of God within him, especially for a human being.... a man....

 

[Aunty Jane]

If Jesus says - I and the Father are one I believe it literally, Him claiming divine and I don't pick up stones.

Me too...what else can it mean, I’m stumped,lol.

What can it mean? It has only one meaning as the rest of Scripture demonstrates…..

John 17:20-23…Jesus said of his disciples….
”I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. 23 I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one, so that the world may know that you sent me and that you loved them just as you loved me.”

This is a unity of thought and purpose.
People need to study God’s word, not just theology. We have to allow Scripture to interpret Scripture, otherwise anyone can pluck verses out of thin air and make them say whatever they like to suggest, when taken out of context…..

Indeed, check out Paul -

Rom 14:5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

Conviction is not proof of truth….when Saul of Tarsus was persecuting Christians, he was sincere in his conviction and belief that he was stamping out apostates to the Jewish faith, rounding them up for death or punishment.
He got a big ‘tap on the shoulder’ from Jesus himself…..and was humble enough to accept the discipline….he spent the rest of his life trying to make up for his mistakes. But God saw the zeal he had for the worship of his God and redirected it. He was used extensively in his ministry and wrote more scripture than any of the other apostles.
He can redirect us too….if we let him.

 

[APAK]

Me too...what else can it mean, I’m stumped,lol.

Did you read my post RJ. There is/was divinity in him, the Christ, whilst he was on earth for sure, although inside of him, not of him, his spirit, only of God's Spirit itself. Agreed!?

This divinity, does not make HIM then also divine. like a bleed over as in a dye that runs into another fabric. Think on that for quite awhile...and If we extend this to a genuine believer's life, possessing the spirit of Christ and thus the spirit of the Father God, then you or I then are also divine - not happening. It's a fools logic of the Truiners, and certainly blasphemous indeed to the Body of Christ!

 

[APAK]

What can it mean? It has only one meaning as the rest of Scripture demonstrates…..

John 17:20-23…Jesus said of his disciples….
”I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. 23 I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one, so that the world may know that you sent me and that you loved them just as you loved me.”

This is a unity of thought and purpose.
People need to study God’s word, not just theology. We have to allow Scripture to interpret Scripture, otherwise anyone can pluck verses out of thin air and make them say whatever they like to suggest, when taken out of context…..


Conviction is not proof of truth….when Saul of Tarsus was persecuting Christians, he was sincere in his conviction and belief that he was stamping out apostates to the Jewish faith, rounding them up for death or punishment.
He got a big ‘tap on the shoulder’ from Jesus himself…..and was humble enough to accept the discipline….he spent the rest of his life trying to make up for his mistakes. But God saw the zeal he had for the worship of his God and redirected it. He was used extensively in his ministry and wrote more scripture than any of the other apostles.
He can redirect us too….if we let him.

Well said sister

 

[face2face]

Do tell.

It would need to have a 3n1 slant for it to be of any interest Pro.

F2F

 

[Johann]

And I also said, if you read my post, that Jesus could also decline being the sacrifice for our redemption, being sinful and with blemish....etc.

Incorrect.

J.

 

[face2face]

Incorrect.

J.

No correct.

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Wrangler @APAK

There are a number of names given to Christ in John 1:

• "Son of Man" – (John 1:51) - 81 times in 4 Gospels
• "Son of God" – (John 1:34, 39) - 21 times in 4 Gospels
• "The Lamb of God" – (John 1:36) - 2 times in John
• "Rabbi" – (John 1:38, 39) 17 - times in 4 Gospels
• "The Messiah" – (John 1:41) - 10 times in 4 Gospels
• "The King of Israel" – (John 1:49) - 4 Times in 2 Gospels

Can you see what isn't mentioned?
Why would it not be mentioned?
Why are the names which are mentioned more important than those "invented" names?
Of these names do any lead you to belive Jesus is God?

What must you do to the text in John 1:1-14 to create and formulate the Trinity?...to get the name they desire?

F2F

 

[Simonides]

.

 

[Taken]

Incorrect.

J.

Agree.

God in ANY Form / Body is Still God Himself…
And No …God Can Never Stand AGAINST Himself, His Goodness, His Holiness, His Righteousness…

God Called BY ANY Name, Description, Title God Declares is Still “Even, Equal, Same” God Himself…

His Life, His Word, His Spirit, His Body is God Himself…

Astounding…to be so “mysterious” to manKind…. When it parallels a Human man”s life, word, spirit, body, is the Same ONE man regardless of how many names, titles, descriptions are attached to such ONE man!

God bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

i SEE the religious are gathered together to condemn the Divinity of CHRIST along with all who are SAVED by HIS Divinity

Monotheistic atheism rises again to condemn that which God Said is GOOD

Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?”

18So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. 19You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Do not defraud,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’ ”

20And he answered and said to Him, “Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth.”

21Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.”

God bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Scott Downey]

Jesus in His body on earth has the power to forgive sins. No one just a man could have that, as the Jews realized, so they said Jesus blasphemed.

Mark 2
And again He entered Capernaum after some days, and it was heard that He was in the house. 2 [a]Immediately many gathered together, so that there was no longer room to receive them, not even near the door. And He preached the word to them. 3 Then they came to Him, bringing a paralytic who was carried by four men. 4 And when they could not come near Him because of the crowd, they uncovered the roof where He was. So when they had broken through, they let down the bed on which the paralytic was lying.

5 When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.”

6 And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, 7 “Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

8 But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, “Why do you reason about these things in your hearts? 9 Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise, take up your bed and walk’? 10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has [b]power on earth to forgive sins”—He said to the paralytic, 11 “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.” 12 Immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went out in the presence of them all, so that all were amazed and glorified God, saying, “We never saw anything like this!”

 

[Taken]

Indeed, check out Paul -

Rom 14:5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

Yes…by Tradition…Hebrews, Jews Esteemed Sabbath days holy unto God…

Christians…by Tradition primarily Esteem Sunday holy unto the Lord (for a couple of hours, until the ballgame starts).

Personally, We Esteem Every day the Lord has made as a day to Worship, Praise, Thank, Converse with and Glorify God.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[face2face]

Jesus in His body on earth has the power to forgive sins. No one just a man could have that, as the Jews realized, so they said Jesus blasphemed.
6 And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, 7 “Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

It's interesting to consider the idea of "God alone," and in one sense, you're right, but also not entirely right—though I know that may sound strange. But this is how God works, isn't it?

He operates through an "agency," whether it's Christ, who, being sinless, is qualified to forgive sins, or even an angel of the Lord.

I was looking at Isaiah 6:6 yesterday and @ProDeo missed this entirely due to what he thought was important at the time, we are all guilty of this!

6 Then one of the seraphim (angelic being) flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 With it he touched my mouth and said, “See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for.”

Who would have thought an angel could forgive sins?

@Wrangler @APAK – Clearly, this scene is far more profound than a simple, surface-level reading of the text. It points to a future when the Lord Jesus Christ and His Saints will be empowered to do the same in the Earth.

As @ProDeo alluded to in the next verse—ironically, one he couldn’t yet see in himself—we witness the Saints of the Most High God.

8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

Note the plurality? Of course Yahweh and the Seraphim here but its pregnant with prophetic import the which many who hold Trinitarian doctrine cannot hope to see!

We have sin, it's forgiveness and being sent to spread the Gospels news to all the earth!

Rather amazing!!!

F2F

 

[APAK]

Incorrect.

J.

Well, can you qualify your position 'J'?

Jesus expressed as a child more of his own will, although as a man and since is ministry, he chose to express it in terms of his Father's will. He preferred his Father's will over his. He became a humble servant of man and God and thus 'emptied himself,' of using or applying his will, and its human weak nature; he thus maintained his sinlessness.

Jesus' and his Father's love and trust for one another was complete, so full and so perfect that God, the Father, never entertained such a thing as a backup plan, if he might refused to go to the Cross, even though He knew His Son was always able to choose for Himself. Jesus was and is the plan. And Jesus continued to to be empowered by God and his angels along his way to the Cross. He was a man of God on a mission indeed, and left his human baggage behind as a real handicap, and used his Father's power instead.

 

[APAK]

i SEE the religious are gathered together to condemn the Divinity of CHRIST along with all who are SAVED by HIS Divinity

Monotheistic atheism rises again to condemn that which God Said is GOOD

Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?”

18So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. 19You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Do not defraud,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’ ”

20And he answered and said to Him, “Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth.”

21Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.”

We are saved by God, his Spirit, and also by possessing the spirit of his Son, David. Well that is how I know I'm saved.

So you are saved in a non-Biblical prescribed manner then, and have not the Father in the equation of your salvation?

Who said that belief or not, in the Trinity model of god is not a salvation issue. It surely is....

 

[face2face]

@Brakelite

I'm not sure how familiar you are with Messianic Psalms, but have you ever studied Psalm 86?

But you, Lord, are a compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness.
16 Turn to me and have mercy on me; show your strength in behalf of your servant; save me, because I serve you just as my mother did. 17 Give me a sign of your goodness, that my enemies may see it and be put to shame, for you, Lord, have helped me and comforted me Ps 86:15-17

Allow me to show you:-

Messianic application: (you will need to have your Bible app open to see it's truth!)

Psalm 86:

• v12: Jesus glorified the name of His Father forever, a central theme throughout his ministry.
• v13: Christ was delivered not only from death but from all the suffering of the crucifixion!
• v14: The Sanhedrin, in their violation of the Sabbath, became "enlightened" rejectors of God's Law and Jesus, demanding his violent crucifixion.
• v15: Without the sacrifice of Jesus, there would be no ultimate mercy for mankind.
• v16: Jesus, strengthened in Gethsemane (Luke 22:42-43), was clearly the son of the Lord's only true handmaid, Mary (Luke 1:38,48). "Save me, speaks to his many prayers and strong crying to be delivered from the flesh and its condemnation of death!)
• v17: The sign for good was the radiant Glory in the face of Jesus, causing those who came to arrest him to stumble back and fall (John 18:6; Psalm 27:1-2; 42:11).

Every aspect of this Psalm cries a humble Servant/Son who deperately needs saving!

Hope that helps

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Brakelite

Now go back one Psalm to 85:

Surely his salvation is near those who fear him, that his glory may dwell in our land. Psalm 85:9

CMP

Hebrews 5:7

"In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence (fear)."

When you open the OT the Promised Messiah is everwhere!

Who did Jesus fear? and to Whom did he look for salvation?

F2F

 

[APAK]

It's interesting to consider the idea of "God alone," and in one sense, you're right, but also not entirely right—though I know that may sound strange. But this is how God works, isn't it?

He operates through an "agency," whether it's Christ, who, being sinless, is qualified to forgive sins, or even an angel of the Lord.

I was looking at Isaiah 6:6 yesterday and @ProDeo missed this entirely due to what he thought was important at the time, we are all guilty of this!

6 Then one of the seraphim (angelic being) flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 With it he touched my mouth and said, “See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for.”

Who would have thought an angel could forgive sins?

@Wrangler @APAK – Clearly, this scene is far more profound than a simple, surface-level reading of the text. It points to a future when the Lord Jesus Christ and His Saints will be empowered to do the same in the Earth.

As @ProDeo alluded to in the next verse—ironically, one he couldn’t yet see in himself—we witness the Saints of the Most High God.

8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

Note the plurality? Of course Yahweh and the Seraphim here but its pregnant with prophetic import the which many who hold Trinitarian doctrine cannot hope to see!

We have sin, it's forgiveness and being sent to spread the Gospels news to all the earth!

Rather amazing!!!

F2F

This a great find F2F, yes angels also forgave sin as agents of God. I will log it for sure and use it in some future discussion. And support for the agency of God, alive in the OT.

 

[Brakelite]

From this, you would agree that all those things in Hebrews were already held by the Son and were not actually an inheritance, correct?

Rather than your usual throw away comments it would be good to hear some clarity on this.

F2F

I would suggest that the mediatorial ministry of reconciliation began the moment man needed it. In the garden.