Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[face2face]

Like Isa 9:6 perhaps?

For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder, // Matt 28:18, 1 Cor 15:24-28
and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor,
Mighty God,
Everlasting Father,
Prince of Peace.

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

1Cor 15:24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
1Cor 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
1Cor 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
1Cor 15:27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him.
1Cor 15:28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

See, you don't even need the Gospel of John to proof the child that is born to us is divine.

Now go back and approach it without your trinity glasses.

I wonder if you can do it?

 

[face2face]

When you quote don't stop in the middle of the story, when the answer to the question is given in the next verses, thus -

Jes 6:6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a burning coal that he had taken with tongs from the altar.
Jes 6:7 And he touched my mouth and said: “Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin atoned for.”
Jes 6:8 And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Then I [Isaiah] said, “Here I am! Send me.”
Jes 6:9 And he said, “Go, and say to this people: “‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand; keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’

Did you see what I highlighted Pro? Did you take the time to think about why I highlighted it, and what it was I was fousing on?

 

[face2face]

I don’t think anyone is desperate at proving the validity of the trinity, or the non validity of the trinity, we’re all just discussing the subject matter.

I don’t think either way can be proved, it’s just interesting to discuss from all points of view using scripture.

That’s my opinion anyway.

"Don't give up, Rita! A single Bible truth can be received, and it's 'hidden' from many for good reason. As Jesus said, 'Seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear' (Matthew 13:13)

 

[APAK]

Like Isa 9:6 perhaps?

For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder, // Matt 28:18, 1 Cor 15:24-28
and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor,
Mighty God,
Everlasting Father,
Prince of Peace.

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

1Cor 15:24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
1Cor 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
1Cor 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
1Cor 15:27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him.
1Cor 15:28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

See, you don't even need the Gospel of John to proof the child that is born to us is divine.

Oh no, not this same usual scripture list again, in a typical triune fashion. Wanting to again, and again, need to reaffirm their insecurities or doubts about their 3-person nondescript god again, in scripture, and with another non-triuner, no less?

 

[face2face]

Oh no, not this same usual scripture list again, in a typical triune fashion. Wanting to again, and again, need to reaffirm their insecurities or doubts about their 3-person nondescript god again, in scripture, and with another non-triuner, no less?

It's frustrating to be on the other side of the planet and know there are people like Pro who just need quality time to sit and talk through "how to read and study the Bible". So many skills and techniques one learns if you watch those who have gone before us - I'm speaking of these!

"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets," Hebrews 1:1

I know you know the next verse but what a way to start the Epistle!

We should not quote them so casually without first becoming humble enough to learn how they themselves read and understood the Word of God.

Take Isaiah 9:6 - This passage in Hebrew tradition is merely making the point that the Messiah will be named after God, like many Jews were, including Isaiah ("The Lord is Salvation")

If God were to have a Son among His people, would he not share His Father’s name and characteristics?

But unfortunately we like to impose "additional" meaning often where there is none! It's not only on this subject as we know but many others.

F2F

 

[Ritajanice]

I find this verse interesting, of course the non trins and the trins, will draw their own conclusions on what this means....which can’t be proved either way.​

​

“I and the Father are one”....hmmmmm.​

Here is another opinion on what it means.....

This means that Jesus is saying He and God are in unity. Rather than declaring they are the same being or person, Jesus is saying they are the same essence, the same power, the same nature, and have the same intentions.

By the way @APAK , I have no inclination of studying the belief of the trinity, for what purpose I ask?

It certainly doesn’t affect our salvation and as I explained, it can’t be proven either way....that’s my take on it....both sides have valid points...

It’s a pointless exercise arguing over it.....Jesus would certainly not have forced his belief on to anyone, sadly us humans have a habit of doing that, then getting nasty when one doesn’t agree with their belief, you’d never have got Jesus doing that..

The trinity is a mystery, it can’t be proven either way imo...both sides have valid points....thankfully believing or not believing the trinity has no affect on our salvation...that I believe 100% and no one could ever convince me otherwise..

Praise God for his Living testimony the Living Holy Spirit who witnesses to our spirit all day every day, that we are Gods spirit children, being conformed into the image of Jesus.

Born Again of imperishable seed that liveth and abideth forever....in Jesus Name...Amen!​

​

John 10​

​

​

King James Version​

​

​

10 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.
20 And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?
21 Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?
22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.
23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
40 And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode.
41 And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true.
42 And many believed on him there.

 

[ProDeo]

Did you see what I highlighted Pro? Did you take the time to think about why I highlighted it, and what it was I was fousing on?

Do tell.

 

[ProDeo]

Oh no, not this same usual scripture list again, in a typical triune fashion. Wanting to again, and again, need to reaffirm their insecurities or doubts about their 3-person nondescript god again, in scripture, and with another non-triuner, no less?

@face2face and @APAK

No refutation seen on Isa 9:6

Christ did not literally descend from heaven! - copyright @face2face

Denial to the power of 10.

 

[APAK]

I find this verse interesting, of course the non trins and the trins, will draw their own conclusions on what this means....which can’t be proved either way.​

​

“I and the Father are one”....hmmmmm.​

The trinity is a mystery, it can’t be proven either way imo...both sides have valid points....thankfully believing or not believing the trinity has no affect on our salvation...that I believe 100% and no one could ever convince me otherwise..

Praise God for his Living testimony the Living Holy Spirit who witnesses to our spirit all day every day, that we are Gods spirit children, being conformed into the image of Jesus.

Born Again of imperishable seed that liveth and abideth forever....in Jesus Name...Amen!​

​

John 10​

​

​

King James Version​

​

​

10 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.
20 And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?
21 Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?
22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.
23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
40 And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode.
41 And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true.
42 And many believed on him there.

ok RJ.

The way I would analyze the 2 scripture verses you pose is by searching for the local and wider context FIRST. Gather DATA first, and do not criticize or make judgements of anything yet. Like finding an odd object or an anomaly currently unknown...a new discovery is found if you will.

Most folks will not do this for whatever reasons.

Like two people wandering in a dense a forest and finding a a scrap piece of metal and then starting to argue over what it may be, where did it come from, without searching for more evidence and using plain common sense. One person happens to be in the scalp metal business and the other a space systems engineer. Both have different views and biases.

So look at the context of both John 10:18 and 10:30. They are definitely related as the local context would suggest.

The hidden gem in verse 18 is to really ponder and understand what Christ meant by him having the power. How does he really have the power to die and become resurrected ,independently of God, his Father? Is this a recurring theme in other scripture that Jesus has independent power? Of course not! So what can it mean...just log these types of queries down as useful data and move on to verse 30.

What does verse 18 and 30 have in common, and then what does being one with the Father mean? Does Jesus present this idea in other scripture? Of course he does in several places. It is a critical piece of information, Then go and examine these other scripture ad find out what they mean first.

....//anyway fast forward and you can fill in the above missing data I deliberately left out...

When you have gathered more data you will find that the only way Jesus has independent power to die and become reborn...re-exist is by his ability to stay within the will of God, his Father, and to maintain his sinlessness. And of course his God would disqualify him as the perfect, blameless, spotless 'lamb' offering and sacrifice to fulfill the legal obligation for his and especially our redemption. This is why he had the power to die, to die as his Father wished and commanded OR NOT and BLOW IT. It was up to him.

And because of this, as his success, as the Father commanded previously, he would be resurrected not because of his Son's own power to do so, Jesus had only the front end power, to present himself as the desired form of sacrifice to his Father, for his immediate acceptance. Jesus has the referred power really of his Father's power to be raise from the dead. God his Father commanded or told Jesus he would raise him by meeting the requirements for self-sacrifice on the Cross.

Many though will play quick draw with their conclusion, as a typical Trinitarian would, that Jesus is God because it says without any other thought, he has the power...not so fast....as I've explained already. And as you can see, how very ignorant of them, indeed.


///then fast forward again with the lack of listed data here, by purpose -----verse 30

Jesus spoke about the miracles he did through his Father's Power, not his own....and then made the statement he and his Father, God are one. And verse 18 is of the same type of comment made by Jesus concerning himself and his Father.

Again a Trinitarian will cry Jesus is then God. Quite foolish as you can see.

No, Jesus performed his Father's will and succeeded, and his Father in turn, within his scope and agreement he successfully completed his promises to his Son. They were very close and still as two separate although attracted and knitted spirts, as one. They were one in purpose and effort to complete the Father's plan, not the Son's plan as he did not have one.

Note also that the Greek for the English word here for ONE means one in effort or purpose. Again this would have be discovered during the fact-finding and research stage earlier.

So as you can see RJ one cannot just look at a verse of scripture at face value or face understanding and draw a meaningful, thoughtful and correct conclusion. And yet most do, especially Trini or Bini-Tarians.

I hope this helps you in your approach to your scripture studies...

 

[Taken]

Let's take a moment to examine John 1:30. John is a witness and he is testifying of the prophet they were expecting (v21). He says of this expected prophet

A man is coming after me who is far greater than I am​

Why denigrate God incarnate if he is merely a man, who is the expected prophet? Also, it is hugely lacking in humility for John to compare himself to God (incarnate). Sure, he says this man, this expected prophet, is greater than him but he is directly comparing one man to another man. He is not comparing a man to God incarnate as trinitarians demand 1:1 to mean.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's take a moment to examine John 1:34 in light of trinitarians demand to interpret John 1:1 imbued with trinitarian significance.
I saw this happen to Jesus, so I testify that he is the Chosen One OF God

Why add the words son OF or the Chosen One OF? Why not simply says he is God? Because he is NOT God but OF God. Language Usage. The reason you say something is yours is because it is yours. The reason you say something is OF a thing is because it is not that thing but belongs to that thing, e.g., Trump of Mar-a-Lago.

These verses show the desperation trinitarians have to impose trinitarian doctrine onto unitarian text. It's absurd to claim in the same chapter that Jesus is a man Chosen by God to be the expected prophet and God at the same time.

* in the beginning…God “purposed” IN men…

* Their “purpose”…see Visions, learn Gods Word…Repeat to other men…They were called Prophets.

* Any Bible student should KNOW how THAT worked out over the course of Centuries.

* Whine whine Boo hoo…they wanted TO SEE the Invisible God…..Before They could BELIEVE.

* Okay…whining, boo hooing, stiffnecked, stubborn manKind…God Will SEND you a Messiah for you TO SEE and offer you Salvation….TRUST Him!

* WHAAT? God you sent us A “nobody, from nowhere important, without wealth, or kingdom…TO BE our Savior….???
LOL….What a funny but cruel joke….!!!

* This is where men stop “listening” and “Learning”.

Eph 1:
[9] Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

The Spiritual MYSTERY of A Spirit God.
(Not conducive for the Natural Carnal Minds Understanding).
Purposed IN Himself…
Prepared Himself A BODY…
Took that BODY upon Himself…
By the POWER of God, Sent that BODY to Earth.
God Declared…
That that Body on Earth WOULD Be “CALLED” Gods Son.
God Declared…
God IN heaven “WOULD Be” A “Father” TO God on EARTH IN that Prepared Body….
And…
That Body WOULD Be God to God IN Heaven A SON”…(Heb 1:5)

And 30 years AFTER that Prepared Body WAS ON EARTH…God Declared that Body IS Gods Son.

God CAN and does CALL things That ARE NOT, “as” though they were! (Rom 4:17)

God didn’t have A BABY!
God Declared God to be His Son.

A spiritual mystery…the natural carnal Mind of manKind can Not Grasp.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Simonides]

.

 

[Ritajanice]

ok RJ.

The way I would analyze the 2 scripture verses you pose is by searching for the local and wider context FIRST. Gather DATA first, and do not criticize or make judgements of anything yet. Like finding an odd object or an anomaly currently unknown...a new discovery is found if you will.

Most folks will not do this for whatever reasons.

Like two people wandering in a dense a forest and finding a a scrap piece of metal and then starting to argue over what it may be, where did it come from, without searching for more evidence and using plain common sense. One person happens to be in the scalp metal business and the other a space systems engineer. Both have different views and biases.

So look at the context of both John 10:18 and 10:30. They are definitely related as the local context would suggest.

The hidden gem in verse 18 is to really ponder and understand what Christ meant by him having the power. How does he really have the power to die and become resurrected ,independently of God, his Father? Is this a recurring theme in other scripture that Jesus has independent power? Of course not! So what can it mean...just log these types of queries down as useful data and move on to verse 30.

What does verse 18 and 30 have in common, and then what does being one with the Father mean? Does Jesus present this idea in other scripture? Of course he does in several places. It is a critical piece of information, Then go and examine these other scripture ad find out what they mean first.

....//anyway fast forward and you can fill in the above missing data I deliberately left out...

When you have gathered more data you will find that the only way Jesus has independent power to die and become reborn...re-exist is by his ability to stay within the will of God, his Father, and to maintain his sinlessness. And of course his God would disqualify him as the perfect, blameless, spotless 'lamb' offering and sacrifice to fulfill the legal obligation for his and especially our redemption. This is why he had the power to die, to die as his Father wished and commanded OR NOT and BLOW IT. It was up to him.

And because of this, as his success, as the Father commanded previously, he would be resurrected not because of his Son's own power to do so, Jesus had only the front end power, to present himself as the desired form of sacrifice to his Father, for his immediate acceptance. Jesus has the referred power really of his Father's power to be raise from the dead. God his Father commanded or told Jesus he would raise him by meeting the requirements for self-sacrifice on the Cross.

Many though will play quick draw with their conclusion, as a typical Trinitarian would, that Jesus is God because it says without any other thought, he has the power...not so fast....as I've explained already. And as you can see, how very ignorant of them, indeed.


///then fast forward again with the lack of listed data here, by purpose -----verse 30

Jesus spoke about the miracles he did through his Father's Power, not his own....and then made the statement he and his Father, God are one. And verse 18 is of the same type of comment made by Jesus concerning himself and his Father.

Again a Trinitarian will cry Jesus is then God. Quite foolish as you can see.

No, Jesus performed his Father's will and succeeded, and his Father in turn, within his scope and agreement he successfully completed his promises to his Son. They were very close and still as two separate although attracted and knitted spirts, as one. They were one in purpose and effort to complete the Father's plan, not the Son's plan as he did not have one.

Note also that the Greek for the English word here for ONE means one in effort or purpose. Again this would have be discovered during the fact-finding and research stage earlier.

So as you can see RJ one cannot just look at a verse of scripture at face value or face understanding and draw a meaningful, thoughtful and correct conclusion. And yet most do, especially Trini or Bini-Tarians.

I hope this helps you in your approach to you scripture studies...

Thanks for your commentary.

 

[ProDeo]

The hidden gem in verse 18 is to really ponder and understand what Christ meant by him having the power. How does he really have the power to die and become resurrected ,independently of God, his Father? Is this a recurring theme in other scripture that Jesus has independent power? Of course not! So what can it mean...just log these types of queries down as useful data and move on to verse 30.

John 10:17 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again.
John 10:18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”

I understand John 10:17-18 differently, in the sense what Jesus said close to His capture.

Matt 26:53 Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels?

Jesus could escape his cruel death any time, that's what the Father told Him in v18.

Praise the Father He gave the Son an escape.
Praise Jesus He did not!

So John 10:30 - I and the Father are one stands on his own and if you are looking for a connection see the next verses -

John 10:31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him.
John 10:32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?”
John 10:33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”

The Jews understood what Jesus was claiming, why don't you.

 

[APAK]

@face2face and @APAK

No refutation seen on Isa 9:6

Christ did not literally descend from heaven! - copyright @face2face

Denial to the power of 10.

Are you kidding me PD. How many times and over the years do you think I've been explaining this OT verse of Isaiah...It gets very old. I will pin it in the archive besides a thread if they had one on this site and then I can link it for you each time.

So why do you entertain me/us One God folks with it, this verse, anyway. You never explain or demonstrate your enthusiasm for presenting it. Is it was I said before, that you are not sure or are insecure in what it means and afraid you cannot stamp Trinity all over it? Can you really explain it? I doubt it. You are not so much interested in the truth or in scripture, as only to add it to your collection of verses that force it to fit your pagan model of belief.

And in the process, you have dog-eared the spiritual word of God puzzle piece that now cannot fit into any part of the puzzle or the word of God.

 

[ProDeo]

So why do you entertain me/us One God folks with it, this verse, anyway. You never explain or demonstrate your enthusiasm for presenting it. Is it was I said before, that you are not sure or are insecure in what it means and afraid you cannot stamp Trinity all over it?

Wrong guess, I feel secure. You are not good reading my mind.

Can you really explain it? I doubt it.

No, do I have to? No.
Do I have to believe it? Yes.

Literal reading is all what is needed.

If Jesus says - I and the Father are one I believe it literally, Him claiming divine and I don't pick up stones.

If Isaiah (800 BC) prophecies -
. a son is born (a human)
. and His name is called....

Then I believe it and try to figure it out and it is perfectly understandable the prophecy is not so much about His stay on Earth but about His ruling afterwards.

You are not so much interested in the truth or in scripture, as only to add it to your collection of verses that force it to fit your pagan model of belief.

Again, you are not good reading my mind. Oh, but wait, it's another accusation.

 

[Ritajanice]

Wrong guess, I feel secure. You are not good reading my mind.


No, do I have to? No.
Do I have to believe it? Yes.

Literal reading is all what is needed.

If Jesus says - I and the Father are one I believe it literally, Him claiming divine and I don't pick up stones.

If Isaiah (800 BC) prophecies -
. a son is born (a human)
. and His name is called....

Then I believe it and try to figure it out and it is perfectly understandable the prophecy is not so much about His stay on Earth but about His ruling.



Again, you are not good reading my mind. Oh, but wait, it's another accusation.

Keep posting what you believe, this is a discussion board, it’s not a “ controlling” board, your posts are just as insightful / valid as anyone else’s...we are all seeking God’s truth, imo.

 

[David in NJ]

* in the beginning…God “purposed” IN men…

* Their “purpose”…see Visions, learn Gods Word…Repeat to other men…They were called Prophets.

* Any Bible student should KNOW how THAT worked out over the course of Centuries.

* Whine whine Boo hoo…they wanted TO SEE the Invisible God…..Before They could BELIEVE.

* Okay…whining, boo hooing, stiffnecked, stubborn manKind…God Will SEND you a Messiah for you TO SEE and offer you Salvation….TRUST Him!

* WHAAT? God you sent us A “nobody, from nowhere important, without wealth, or kingdom…TO BE our Savior….???
LOL….What a funny but cruel joke….!!!

* This is where men stop “listening” and “Learning”.

Eph 1:
[9] Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

The Spiritual MYSTERY of A Spirit God.
(Not conducive for the Natural Carnal Minds Understanding).
Purposed IN Himself…
Prepared Himself A BODY…
Took that BODY upon Himself…
By the POWER of God, Sent that BODY to Earth.
God Declared…
That that Body on Earth WOULD Be “CALLED” Gods Son.
God Declared…
God IN heaven “WOULD Be” A “Father” TO God on EARTH IN that Prepared Body….
And…
That Body WOULD Be God to God IN Heaven A SON”…(Heb 1:5)

And 30 years AFTER that Prepared Body WAS ON EARTH…God Declared that Body IS Gods Son.

God CAN and does CALL things That ARE NOT, “as” though they were! (Rom 4:17)

God didn’t have A BABY!
God Declared God to be His Son.

A spiritual mystery…the natural carnal Mind of manKind can Not Grasp.

Glory to God,
Taken

i SEE the religious are gathered together to condemn the Divinity of CHRIST along with all who are SAVED by HIS Divinity

Monotheistic atheism rises again to condemn that which God Said is GOOD

Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?”

18So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. 19You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Do not defraud,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’ ”

20And he answered and said to Him, “Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth.”

21Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.”

 

[Ritajanice]

If Jesus says - I and the Father are one I believe it literally, Him claiming divine and I don't pick up stones.

Me too...what else can it mean, I’m stumped,lol.

 

[ProDeo]

Keep posting what you believe, this is a discussion board, it’s not a “ controlling” board, your posts are just as insightful / valid as anyone else’s...imo.

Indeed, check out Paul -

Rom 14:5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Aunty Jane, I'm curious. To what church do you belong, a mainline denomination, non denominational, or something else?

Hello my friend…..If I may, I would like to tell you a bit about my spiritual journey…..

I was born and raised in the Anglican Church but never really felt at home there. As I got older and I heard doctrine discussed, it never sat well with me….especially the trinity, which seemed to be a foregone conclusion to many, but not once did I see a clear and direct scripture declaring God to be three different “persons” who could talk to one another although they were in different places. I saw no equality between them, and Jesus only ever said he was “the son of God”.

It is not we humans who declared them to be “Father and son,” but they themselves used that terminology. It is one confined to human understanding because we reproduce and do comprehend what these terms mean. As the trinity was the very foundational doctrine of Christendom, I began to seriously doubt what they were teaching, along with other beliefs such as a fiery hell of eternal conscious torment…what kind of a loving God would do that? So I withdrew from the church…

But, rather than throw the baby out with the dirty bath water, I began to search for the God I knew was there, but did not find him in denominational Christendom at all, nor could I understand how a house so divided could all claim to be Christ’s disciples (Mark 3:25) when they could not agree on much of anything except the big three….the trinity, immortality of the soul, and hellfire….for some reason unknown to me at the time, they all held on to these three doctrines.

In my search for God in other places, I found out that pagan religions also held to these three beliefs, only perhaps with a slightly different slant, but basically were the same. It occurred to me that perhaps they had the same source. But a few years would pass before I was introduced to the people who would change my life forever….Jehovah’s Witnesses.

I had only heard bad things about these people so I had not even considered approaching them, and would not speak to them when they called at my door. But a tragedy happened in my family when my father died very suddenly without warning, leaving us devastated. Church teachings whirled around in my head and I began to worry about where my father had gone….he was not a church goer at the time, even though he sent us kids off to Sunday School every Sunday with money to put in the plate.

Had my father gone to heaven or was he in hell? No one would tell me….but it was a question that was asked of Jehovah’s Witnesses when they called on my sister, and the answer she got was relayed to me. He was not in heaven or hell…the Bible said he was “sleeping”….in an unconscious state. (Eccl 9:5, 10) He was dead to us but not dead to God. This piqued my curiosity because it was very different to the mainstream beliefs of Christendom which I had long since abandoned….and it struck a chord with me.

I decided to have a Bible study with Jehovah’s Witnesses to see what else they believed….to my surprise I found that they rejected the big three in favor of what the Bible itself taught…they held no beliefs in common with Christendom, but taught only what the Bible said.
I was very interested in what they had to show me from the Bible about the condition of the dead…..I wanted everything to be clearly stated in the Bible or I would not accept it.

John 11:11-14 is the account about Lazarus and we studied this passage to glean as much as we could from it. The one thing that stood out to me was in agreement with Eccl 9,5, 10…..that the dead were in an unconscious state, rather than an immortal soul, that lives on after death, in some other place.
I found that the Bible teaches only resurrection….something I had not really entertained before. The account about Lazarus showed clearly that the dead are “sleeping” and that a resurrection is like an awakening from the sleep of death. All my fears for my father vanished in that truth…..and I was excited to learn more about so many things!

After a few months of investigation, I attended their meetings and found them to be very instructive and interactive…..very different to Christendom’s approach where ‘doctrine was doctrine’ and no one was to question any of it without the howl of being a “heretic!”

The one thing that stood out to me was the the declaration by the apostle Paul in 1 Cor 1:10..
”Now I urge you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”

There was no dissension in their ranks because all were taught one truth directly from the Bible. God’s spirit unites his people…it does not divide them. There can be only one truth, held by all….and based squarely on the teachings of a Jewish Messiah. The Jewish God was not a trinity…and Jesus never mentioned it.

I asked them why people said such awful things about them when I had not seen any reason for the bad reputation……and they showed me Matt 5:11-12…

”Happy are you when people reproach you and persecute you and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against you for my sake. 12 Rejoice and be overjoyed, since your reward is great in the heavens, for in that way they persecuted the prophets prior to you.”

These things were nothing new for God’s true servants, even in ancient times, the prophets were persecuted….but by whom? God’s own people! The prophets were sent to correct them, but in their spiritual blindness, they persecuted and murdered the prophets, silencing them rather than to be corrected by them. Jesus told his disciples that people would hate them…for all the same reasons.

John 15:18-21….
“If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you. 20 Keep in mind the word I said to you: A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have observed my word, they will also observe yours. 21 But they will do all these things against you on account of my name, because they do not know the One who sent me.”

Jesus also said that “few” would be found on the ‘cramped and narrow road to life’…(Matt 7:13-14) so I was looking at a sincere minority who taught only what God’s word said, and who were far removed from the concocted doctrines of Christendom. They are not perfect, because of inherited sin, but they try harder than anyone I know to stick to the Bible in everything……there is no such thing as “perfect” in a world ruled by the devil. (1 John 5:19)
I studied for two whole years before I was baptized as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. That was over 50 years ago and I have been a student and teacher of God’s word ever since.

So that is who I am…..one of the relative “few” who serve Jehovah in a united global brotherhood….in every nation, we hold all beliefs in common and we obey Christ’s directive to take the good news about his kingdom, out to the people…..he said he would be “with” them in this work. (Matt 28:19-20; Matt 24:14; Matt 10:11-14)

In this time of the end, people are streaming into our ranks because mainstream Christendom is dying and many are opting for the emotional pull of the mega-churches and their emphasis on music rather than solid Bible education. Emotions are transient….knowledge is rock solid. Our foundation must be firm to carry the weight of opposition we have to endure from Satan’s world. (Matt 24: 13)

If anyone wants to know what we believe and teach, they can go to our website….. JW.ORG