Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[APAK]

Sorry your wife is poorly bro, God bless you both, that she may heal and that you may rest.

Thanks Bro..things happen when we get older as you well know...she's 72 in May and recovering from three traumatic events last year. God is always there for us. We do not know his plan for us, although I truly sense he is talking to me quite a bit these days....preparing for the future etc...amen. She'll be fine...amen

 

[APAK]

Prayer being lifted UP for your wife

Appreciate it man...thanks for your great energy and support

 

[CadyandZoe]

So, in Matt. 28:19, Jesus wasn't instructing His apostles to baptize new believers in God in the name of God?

It depends on what you mean.

Baptism signifies a commitment to become a disciple of the teacher who performs the baptism. When someone is baptized, they promise to study under this teacher, living with and learning from them. For example, those who were baptized by John became his students (refer to Acts 19).

When someone else performs the act of baptism, they are essentially making disciples for someone else. In this case, the person performing the baptism is acting on behalf of the baptizer. For example, if a large number of people approached John seeking to become his disciples, he might ask someone to assist him. That assistant would then be making disciples for John by baptizing them in John's name.

Thus, when Jesus instructs his disciples to baptize in his name, he means to say that his disciples are helping Jesus make disciples. Those whom the disciples baptize are making disciples for Jesus.

The Great Commission begins with a command to make disciples. "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations . . ." The second half of the commandment is to make disciples for "the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit." In other words, although Jesus' disciples were baptizing people, they weren't making disciples for themselves. In this case, the baptizers were Jesus' assistants and Jesus is the teacher, "teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”



by "baptize in the name of."

 

[Wrangler]

Back to Zechariah

"there shall be one Yahweh, and his name one" Zech 14:9

This depicts the fulfilment of the purpose of the Gospel (John 17:17-23); the complete unity of Christ and his saints so that together they might bear and manifest the divine name - Rev. 3:12; Isa. 30:27.

Brilliant! I never put that together before. It also parallels what I call Christianity's end game:
1 Corinthians 15:23-28
23 But there is an order to this resurrection: Christ was raised as the first of the harvest; then all who belong to Christ will be raised when he comes back.

24 After that the end will come, when he will turn the Kingdom over to God the Father, having destroyed every ruler and authority and power. 25 For Christ must reign until he humbles all his enemies beneath his feet. 26 And the last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For the Scriptures say, “God has put all things under his authority.”[a] (Of course, when it says “all things are under his authority,” that does not include God himself, who gave Christ his authority.) 28 Then, when all things are under his authority, the Son will put himself under God’s authority, so that God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything

Note well.

1. v23 Christ is the first of the harvest. "First" means a series of like to follow, aka "all who belong to Christ." If Christ is God, then so are all who belong to him for all will be raised in like manner.
2. v24 Why does Christ turn the Kingdom over to God the Father if Jesus is God, if they are one? Because in the end, there remains a difference of Biblical proportion. One person, YHWW (God the Father), retains all authority over God's Kingdom.
3. v27 Why make an exception to what Jesus does not have authority over? Because Jesus is not God.
4. Notice how v 24 refers to "God the Father?" Trinitarians love to suppose this implies other god persons. However, in v27 it only refers to God - in his unitarian nature. God - in his unitarian nature - gave Christ his authority, which is why Christ does not have authority over God. The author is explicit about the limits of Jesus' authority here, excepting God and why God is excluded from Christ's authority. There remains hierarchy between God - in his unitarian nature - and Jesus.
5. Finally v27 ends with the point you've been hammering the trinitarians about; God will be utterly supreme over everything through Christ. Jesus is part of the harvest, which includes us. He does not stand apart from the harvest with the unitarian God of the Bible. The distinction between God and his servant remain at the end of time. The reason is obvious; Jesus is NOT God.

Imagine how this end game scenario might be written if the trinity were true? For one thing, it'd mention the Holy Spirit. And it would finally reveal the trinity nature of God. But the end game explicitly separates God from his servant, who is the first of the harvest, which we are to be raised equally. There is not equality between Jesus and God. There is equality between us and Jesus, with him being the first to be raised in God's kingdom. This explains why Jesus calls us friends (as opposed to servants with him being our lord) and brothers. John 15:15. Hebrews 2:11. Romans 8:29.

Scripture makes this point so many times, even trinitarians must grasp it despite their mystical dualism:

Isa. 30:27​

Zech 14:9​

Luke 20:36​

John 17:17-23​

1 Corinthians 15:23-28​

Rev. 3:12​

 

[David in NJ]

Brilliant! I never put that together before. It also parallels what I call Christianity's end game:
1 Corinthians 15:23-28
23 But there is an order to this resurrection: Christ was raised as the first of the harvest; then all who belong to Christ will be raised when he comes back.

24 After that the end will come, when he will turn the Kingdom over to God the Father, having destroyed every ruler and authority and power. 25 For Christ must reign until he humbles all his enemies beneath his feet. 26 And the last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For the Scriptures say, “God has put all things under his authority.”[a] (Of course, when it says “all things are under his authority,” that does not include God himself, who gave Christ his authority.) 28 Then, when all things are under his authority, the Son will put himself under God’s authority, so that God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything

Note well.

1. v23 Christ is the first of the harvest. "First" means a series of like to follow, aka "all who belong to Christ." If Christ is God, then so are all who belong to him for all will be raised in like manner.
2. v24 Why does Christ turn the Kingdom over to God the Father if Jesus is God, if they are one? Because in the end, there remains a difference of Biblical proportion. One person, YHWW (God the Father), retains all authority over God's Kingdom.
3. v27 Why make an exception to what Jesus does not have authority over? Because Jesus is not God.
4. Notice how v 24 refers to "God the Father?" Trinitarians love to suppose this implies other god persons. However, in v27 it only refers to God - in his unitarian nature. God - in his unitarian nature - gave Christ his authority, which is why Christ does not have authority over God. The author is explicit about the limits of Jesus' authority here, excepting God and why God is excluded from Christ's authority. There remains hierarchy between God - in his unitarian nature - and Jesus.
5. Finally v27 ends with the point you've been hammering the trinitarians about; God will be utterly supreme over everything through Christ. Jesus is part of the harvest, which includes us. He does not stand apart from the harvest with the unitarian God of the Bible. The distinction between God and his servant remain at the end of time. The reason is obvious; Jesus is NOT God.

Imagine how this end game scenario might be written if the trinity were true? For one thing, it'd mention the Holy Spirit. And it would finally reveal the trinity nature of God. But the end game explicitly separates God from his servant, who is the first of the harvest, which we are to be raised equally. There is not equality between Jesus and God. There is equality between us and Jesus, with him being the first to be raised in God's kingdom. This explains why Jesus calls us friends (as opposed to servants with him being our lord) and brothers. John 15:15. Hebrews 2:11. Romans 8:29.

Scripture makes this point so many times, even trinitarians must grasp it despite their mystical dualism:

Isa. 30:27​

Zech 14:9​

Luke 20:36​

John 17:17-23​

1 Corinthians 15:23-28​

Rev. 3:12​

Imagine how this end game scenario might be written if the trinity were true?

The Holy Scriptures only speak of the Triune Elohim = FATHER/WORD-SON/HOLY SPIRIT

The scriptures you posted clearly reflect the Triune Elohim = "Thy Will be done on earth as it is in Heaven"

The "End" is the SAME as the Beginning = Jesus Christ the SAME Yesterday, Today, and FOREVER = the ALPHA and the OMEGA

Because you can only read but not SEE, you cannot SEE the END intended by the LORD Jesus Christ

 

[APAK]

Brilliant! I never put that together before. It also parallels what I call Christianity's end game:
1 Corinthians 15:23-28
23 But there is an order to this resurrection: Christ was raised as the first of the harvest; then all who belong to Christ will be raised when he comes back.

24 After that the end will come, when he will turn the Kingdom over to God the Father, having destroyed every ruler and authority and power. 25 For Christ must reign until he humbles all his enemies beneath his feet. 26 And the last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For the Scriptures say, “God has put all things under his authority.”[a] (Of course, when it says “all things are under his authority,” that does not include God himself, who gave Christ his authority.) 28 Then, when all things are under his authority, the Son will put himself under God’s authority, so that God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything

Note well.

1. v23 Christ is the first of the harvest. "First" means a series of like to follow, aka "all who belong to Christ." If Christ is God, then so are all who belong to him for all will be raised in like manner.
2. v24 Why does Christ turn the Kingdom over to God the Father if Jesus is God, if they are one? Because in the end, there remains a difference of Biblical proportion. One person, YHWW (God the Father), retains all authority over God's Kingdom.
3. v27 Why make an exception to what Jesus does not have authority over? Because Jesus is not God.
4. Notice how v 24 refers to "God the Father?" Trinitarians love to suppose this implies other god persons. However, in v27 it only refers to God - in his unitarian nature. God - in his unitarian nature - gave Christ his authority, which is why Christ does not have authority over God. The author is explicit about the limits of Jesus' authority here, excepting God and why God is excluded from Christ's authority. There remains hierarchy between God - in his unitarian nature - and Jesus.
5. Finally v27 ends with the point you've been hammering the trinitarians about; God will be utterly supreme over everything through Christ. Jesus is part of the harvest, which includes us. He does not stand apart from the harvest with the unitarian God of the Bible. The distinction between God and his servant remain at the end of time. The reason is obvious; Jesus is NOT God.

Imagine how this end game scenario might be written if the trinity were true? For one thing, it'd mention the Holy Spirit. And it would finally reveal the trinity nature of God. But the end game explicitly separates God from his servant, who is the first of the harvest, which we are to be raised equally. There is not equality between Jesus and God. There is equality between us and Jesus, with him being the first to be raised in God's kingdom. This explains why Jesus calls us friends (as opposed to servants with him being our lord) and brothers. John 15:15. Hebrews 2:11. Romans 8:29.

Scripture makes this point so many times, even trinitarians must grasp it despite their mystical dualism:

Isa. 30:27​

Zech 14:9​

Luke 20:36​

John 17:17-23​

1 Corinthians 15:23-28​

Rev. 3:12​

So then you must be now an Amillennialistic if you were not before, by now, or a current-ongoing millennialist, as when Christ 'returns' it's all over, no 1000yr future Kingdom...

 

[Brakelite]

Brilliant! I never put that together before. It also parallels what I call Christianity's end game:
1 Corinthians 15:23-28
23 But there is an order to this resurrection: Christ was raised as the first of the harvest; then all who belong to Christ will be raised when he comes back.

24 After that the end will come, when he will turn the Kingdom over to God the Father, having destroyed every ruler and authority and power. 25 For Christ must reign until he humbles all his enemies beneath his feet. 26 And the last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For the Scriptures say, “God has put all things under his authority.”[a] (Of course, when it says “all things are under his authority,” that does not include God himself, who gave Christ his authority.) 28 Then, when all things are under his authority, the Son will put himself under God’s authority, so that God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything

Note well.

1. v23 Christ is the first of the harvest. "First" means a series of like to follow, aka "all who belong to Christ." If Christ is God, then so are all who belong to him for all will be raised in like manner.
2. v24 Why does Christ turn the Kingdom over to God the Father if Jesus is God, if they are one? Because in the end, there remains a difference of Biblical proportion. One person, YHWW (God the Father), retains all authority over God's Kingdom.
3. v27 Why make an exception to what Jesus does not have authority over? Because Jesus is not God.
4. Notice how v 24 refers to "God the Father?" Trinitarians love to suppose this implies other god persons. However, in v27 it only refers to God - in his unitarian nature. God - in his unitarian nature - gave Christ his authority, which is why Christ does not have authority over God. The author is explicit about the limits of Jesus' authority here, excepting God and why God is excluded from Christ's authority. There remains hierarchy between God - in his unitarian nature - and Jesus.
5. Finally v27 ends with the point you've been hammering the trinitarians about; God will be utterly supreme over everything through Christ. Jesus is part of the harvest, which includes us. He does not stand apart from the harvest with the unitarian God of the Bible. The distinction between God and his servant remain at the end of time. The reason is obvious; Jesus is NOT God.

Imagine how this end game scenario might be written if the trinity were true? For one thing, it'd mention the Holy Spirit. And it would finally reveal the trinity nature of God. But the end game explicitly separates God from his servant, who is the first of the harvest, which we are to be raised equally. There is not equality between Jesus and God. There is equality between us and Jesus, with him being the first to be raised in God's kingdom. This explains why Jesus calls us friends (as opposed to servants with him being our lord) and brothers. John 15:15. Hebrews 2:11. Romans 8:29.

Scripture makes this point so many times, even trinitarians must grasp it despite their mystical dualism:

Isa. 30:27​

Zech 14:9​

Luke 20:36​

John 17:17-23​

1 Corinthians 15:23-28​

Rev. 3:12​

You keep raising arguments... Jesus is not God because, etc etc etc. Yet you actually deny the very thing that is the greatest evidence of His deity and divinity...His Sonship of God.
“42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. ”
John 8:42, 56, 58 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

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“1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) 3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. ”
1 John 1:1-3 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

So then you must be now an Amillennialistic if you were not before, by now, or a current-ongoing millennialist, as when Christ 'returns' it's all over, no 1000yr future Kingdom...

Not on earth anyway.

 

[MatthewG]

I think Jesus became God, after having set with his Father on his throne. The thing is I don’t believe Jesus flesh was God, but the fullness of Yahavah was in him at birthed (God with us: Emmanuel). Yet Jesus had to suffer under temptation.

He had to overcome the flesh and after resurrection he moves from becoming the beloved son, to begotten son, having been raised seeing no corruption to his flesh, then he ascended into the sky. Eventually at first sitting at the right hand of the Father moving from that place to the place where his Father had sat. This is the transfiguration in my mind. In the beginning he was the Word.

I think the trinity logic doesn’t do justice, to what the Bible teaches, in my best estimation. And I love Yahavah, and I love Yeshua, and I’m thankful we are helped by the Holy Spirit of Yahavah and the Spirit of Christ in our lives.

Everything centers around Yeshua, whom to me was the Word of God in the beginning and now is the Yahavah God Almighty by sitting on that throne today.
It was only until the overcoming of temptation, Satan and he’ll and death was all conquered over the sitting on the throne from the sitting at the right hand there is a shift, where Jesus sits on his Fathers throne.

Jesus was a man born of a woman, who had fullness of God in him, and once over coming he was rewarded the placement of his prior position, subject to God, and this transfiguration took place where in my own personal mind I see Yeshua and the Father as One becoming the LORD God Almighty.


I believe the whole fully man and fully God definitions are not right… cause if Jesus was fully God when he was birthed (though he had the fullness of Yahavah within him) he would have never been tempted to sin, and he wouldn’t have been able to die.

These are just my thoughts, on the subject and no one has to agree with me on this.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Question. If Jesus wasn't a Son until Bethlehem, what was He?

The following are all excerpts from that same conversation, therefore are all from the same context... Who is Christ?

“42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. ”
John 8:42, 54-56, 58 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

Who is talking in John 8, Jesus or Word?

 

[Wrangler]

So then you must be now an Amillennialistic if you were not before, by now, or a current-ongoing millennialist, as when Christ 'returns' it's all over, no 1000yr future Kingdom...

I tend not to delve in such things and don't understand the end time debate. Part of the reason is applicability. We all need to be prepared to meet our maker, wether we die before or during end time events.

 

[Wrangler]

Yet you actually deny the very thing that is the greatest evidence of His deity and divinity...His Sonship of God.

We all have sonship with God. Doesn't make us God. John 1:12

Honestly, this "greatest evidence" that Jesus is a deity - relationship - is absurdly contrived. Odd that it does not bother you that no verse in Scripture says it's important to believe in the trinity.

 

[amadeus]

@Scott Downey @amigo de christo @amadeus

LOOK again and count = In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God = 3

the FATHER Speaks Truth
the WORD/SON Speaks Truth
the HOLY SPIRIT Speaks Truth

Immanuel = Elohim with us

Is there is one, or are there two, or are there three, or are there seven, or are there more? What is it we now understand and what is it that we should accept by faith? Let us be content with what we have and then again ask Him for more in accord with His will. God gives the increase.

 

[David in NJ]

Is there is one, or are there two, or are there three, or are there seven, or are there more? What is it we now understand and what is it that we should accept by faith? Let us be content with what we have and then again ask Him for more in accord with His will. God gives the increase.

Good Moring my Brother in Christ,

Elohim made it very simple for us:
Count to THREE in order to SEE that the REST from Heaven is Number Seven

Count to THREE = John 14:
“If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [e]Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

 

[Ritajanice]

God gives the increase.

Amen, Brother!

Short commentary.

First Corinthians 3:6 explains how God gives each of us a role in His Kingdom advancement process—we are His Plan A for reaching those around us! Some plant the seed, others water it, but God brings the increase. He is the one who causes growth, expansion, and advancement. He multiplies whatever we do!

 

[amadeus]

Good Moring my Brother in Christ,

Elohim made it very simple for us:
Count to THREE in order to SEE that the REST from Heaven is Number Seven

Count to THREE = John 14:
“If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [e]Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

If you have correct understanding, God gave it to you... no one else!

1co 3:6	I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
1co 3:7	So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

Php 4:11

Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.

Mt 7:7	Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mt 7:8	For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

 

[amadeus]

Amen, Brother!

Short commentary.

First Corinthians 3:6 explains how God gives each of us a role in His Kingdom advancement process—we are His Plan A for reaching those around us! Some plant the seed, others water it, but God brings the increase. He is the one who causes growth, expansion, and advancement. He multiplies whatever we do!

Amen, Sister!

 

[David in NJ]

If you have correct understanding, God gave it to you... no one else!

1co 3:6	I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
1co 3:7	So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

Php 4:11

Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.

Mt 7:7	Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mt 7:8	For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

the correct understanding is for ALL = there are no 'favorites' with God
INCREASE = God rewards those who, in faith, receive His Word = Matt 4:4 , James 1:16-18 , Hebrews 11:6

God has shown us in His Word exactly how HE gives "INCREASE" = John chapter 14

You quoted from the apostle Paul on "increase" = Paul only attained his knowledge from JESUS as per John chapter 14

There is no other WAY, TRUTH and LIFE

SHALOM in YHWH YAHshua HaMashiach

 

[amadeus]

the correct understanding is for ALL = there are no 'favorites' with God

God has shown us in His Word exactly how HE gives "increase" = John chapter 14

There is no other WAY, TRUTH and LIFE

SHALOM in YHWH YAHshua HaMashiach

Joh 14:26

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Joh 14:6

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

[David in NJ]

Joh 14:26

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Joh 14:6

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Post 2,237 UPdated for you

 

[amadeus]

Post 2,237 UPdated for you

Thank you.