Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[amigo de christo]

Even from a much wider perspective, this expression is a trojan horse that will deceptively invade and overtake you minds and spirit to force compliance for world religious compromise.

'Plurality within unity' is definitely a concept that can be interpreted through various religious, political and philosophical lenses, including socialist thought. The idea emphasizes the coexistence of diverse groups (gods) and values within a unified framework (one so-called divine substance or essence), aiming to balance competing interests/factions/powers and foster a common good. It began in the late 1st century and especially around 325 AD and on, for today and tomorrow.

The common good of accepting a 3 persons god as the one worldly god for the good of humanity's world religious goals at least.

Sounds like the phrase is a religious-political-socialistic cause for compromise, that I for one will not have any part of...

HOW do you get the religoins and christendom to unite .
A hint , you have to break down their fundamental core values which contradict one the other .
A huge key to this was , if ones religoin cliams its Leader be , MY LORD and my GOD
That wont do. you have to break down the image of their so called LEADER and suit it to be
more as a man ,as a prophet so as you can link all the other false prophets in all them other religoins together .
Meanwhile as they removed more and more of the core fundamental doctrines
they kept stressing the things all religoins had in common . THEY did this under the guise of a false love
one that tries to mimic the golden rule , BUT OH BOY has it DENIED HE WHO GAVE THE GOLDEN RULE .
IN order to control the world , ye have to create a mindset , a religoin , an idea
that merges them . False love will do just that . it giveth the impression that all are doing well
and even the will of GOD , if they just did good works in the name of what they think is love and is GOD .
THEY been breaking down the false religoins and christendom from within FOR SO many years .
And now the minds and hearts of the many are ready to be as ONE . ONE MIND , ONE HEART
ONE LOVE , under what they ALL BELIEVE IS GOD , only ITS THE DEVIL . HE is sneaky .

 

[Scott Downey]

a special note , a friendly reminder to all i now write .
Judas was as though he was one of them . He did not come from outside
but from within . REMEMBER THAT well . cause we got us many decked in wool
and our betrayal is at the door . We are being decieved and will be betrayed , FROM THOSE WITHIN .
Intefaith has come to decieve and to merge all as one with a common goal
they believe will usher in peace n safety of the world .
The most dangerous , the most deceptive , they who hold the power
ARE THE WOLVES IN WOOL who have crept into Christendom and has transformed them
from within . And it and they will hate all who resist the lie , all who do not conform to the lie

The wolves always betray Him.

 

[amigo de christo]

Even from a much wider perspective, this expression is a trojan horse that will deceptively invade and overtake you minds and spirit to force compliance for world religious compromise.

'Plurality within unity' is definitely a concept that can be interpreted through various religious, political and philosophical lenses, including socialist thought. The idea emphasizes the coexistence of diverse groups (gods) and values within a unified framework (one so-called divine substance or essence), aiming to balance competing interests/factions/powers and foster a common good. It began in the late 1st century and especially around 325 AD and on, for today and tomorrow.

The common good of accepting a 3 persons god as the one worldly god for the good of humanity's world religious goals at least.

Sounds like the phrase is a religious-political-socialistic cause for compromise, that I for one will not have any part of...

sure seems odd that this new love god that the false religions and false within christendom are unting as one under
SURE SEEMS TO BE GREEN . sure seems to have the same agenda as ELITES . anyone figured that one out yet .

 

[amigo de christo]

The wolves always betray Him.

Well yes they do my friend . They have changed the image of GOD , of Christ
into a man pleasing , which resulted in a GOD HATING , TRUTH HATING , CHRIST hating , saints hating
MINDSET . THIS fake love has led them into GREAT HATRED and upmost rebellion AGAINST
the VERY GOD and HIS CHRIST who could have saved them . IT WILL LEAD to hard core persecutions
against the saints WHO DID NOT , DO NOT , and shall not conform .
What pleases man is an abomination to GOD .
People should have realized that when seeker friendly was first at work .
THEY WENT to unrepentant sinners to TRY and PLEASE THEM BACK INTO CHURCHES .
and WOW , they are pleased all right , BUT GOD SURE AINT . HAVE YA SEEN what is going on
within them churches NOW and its gonna get worse .

 

[amigo de christo]

The wolves always betray Him.

when one preaches that which is pleasing to man , DONT EXPECT GOD TO BE PLEASED .
cause seeker friendly DUPED MANY .
and that my friend was over twenty years and longer since it came upon them .
Now lets go and look at this men pleasing message that was done
in order to get so many back into churches .
A three ring circus of entertainement , that never preaches against sin , never dares to correct the sinner
And from that LEAVEN FILLED and filled and keeps filling them up .
You see that which pleases the flesh , panders to man , REALLY IS AN ABOMINATION TO GOD .
HE who is a friend of the world , IS the enemy of GOD .
HE who has the love of the world , HAS NOT the LOVE of the FATHER .
DO feel free to check out all them man pleasing churches .
YOU will find many pleased souls , BUT WHEN YA SEE the abominations and the lies
getting cheered , REALIZE that aint PLEASING TO GOD at all . THEY even hate on the bible now
this madness has led them to hatred against truth
and against any and all who dare to speak TRUTH in their presence .
That hate will lead to MURDER , to blood and they will truly believe
the will of GOD is being done when saints are rounded up and do bleed . This is a madness
and insanity of reprobation leadeth more and more into total and mass confusion and unto
their own destruction

 

[Magdala]

1. The trinity is not in Scripture.

The term "Holy Trinity" refers to the Father, the Son (the Word), and the Holy Spirit, and They are in Scripture: "Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit [...]" (Matt. 28:19), and therefore your statement that the Holy Trinity isn't in Scripture is false. It seems that you meant to word your statement as "My understanding of the concept of the Holy Trinity being three separate gods isn't in Scripture", and that would've been true, because the Holy Trinity isn't three separate gods.

2. The trinity contradicts Scripture, which explicitly and repeatedly states YHWH is the only true God, who we relate to as father.

False. The doctrine of the Holy Trinity isn't the belief in two or more gods, and thus it doesn't contradict Scripture which speaks of one God. God exists in three Persons: the Father, the Son (the Word), and the Holy Spirit, each distinct, united as one because They are the same Essence: love.

3. God cannot die. Jesus is demonstrably not God because Jesus died.

God: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, is Spirit (Jn. 4:24), which means invisible and incorporeal, and thus unable to experience a corporeal death, which is why the Second Person of God: the Word, became human to die for us: Jesus, the Son. Human sight or any other human sense never saw God before He became incarnate and cannot physically see the First and Third Persons (the Father and the Holy Spirit), but sees Them in the works which were or are carried out by Them.

4. If Jesus did not die, fully and completely die, then he did not pay the wages of sin.

The Word: Jesus, did die fully and completely.

5. Trinitarianism denies Jesus’ full sacrifice.

False.

6. The Holy Spirit is not equal to the person of God, as IT has no name or authority.

False. The Holy Spirit is the Third Person of God: "Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit [...]" (Matt. 28:19)

 

[Wrangler]

P1. True Worshippers worship the father. John 4:23
P2. Trinitarians do not worship (ONLY) the father.
C. Trinitarians are not true worshippers.

Mutual exclusivity.

 

[Marvelloustime]

Well yes they do my friend . They have changed the image of GOD , of Christ
into a man pleasing , which resulted in a GOD HATING , TRUTH HATING , CHRIST hating , saints hating
MINDSET . THIS fake love has led them into GREAT HATRED and upmost rebellion AGAINST
the VERY GOD and HIS CHRIST who could have saved them . IT WILL LEAD to hard core persecutions
against the saints WHO DID NOT , DO NOT , and shall not conform .
What pleases man is an abomination to GOD .
People should have realized that when seeker friendly was first at work .
THEY WENT to unrepentant sinners to TRY and PLEASE THEM BACK INTO CHURCHES .
and WOW , they are pleased all right , BUT GOD SURE AINT . HAVE YA SEEN what is going on
within them churches NOW and its gonna get worse .

@amigo de christo

 

[Johann]

P1. True Worshippers worship the father. John 4:23
P2. Trinitarians do not worship (ONLY) the father.
C. Trinitarians are not true worshippers.

Mutual exclusivity.

True worshippers worship the Father. (John 4:23)
Clarification of the Text: John 4:23 states, “But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him.”

The verse emphasizes the quality of worship (spiritual and truthful) rather than the exclusivity of worship to the Father alone.
The text does not deny worship of the Son or the Spirit but highlights worship of the Father as central within the Godhead.

Biblical Context: Trinitarian theology affirms the worship of the Father as part of worshiping the one true God (Deuteronomy 6:4), who exists in three persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Worship of the Father inherently includes worship of the Son and the Spirit.

P2. Trinitarians do not worship (ONLY) the Father.

Misrepresentation of Trinitarian Worship:

Trinitarians do worship the Father but also recognize that worshiping the Son and the Spirit is consistent with biblical revelation.
In John 5:23, Jesus states, “That all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.” This demonstrates that worship of the Son is inseparable from worship of the Father.
Philippians 2:10-11 declares, “At the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” Worshiping Christ glorifies the Father, not contradicts His worship.

C. Trinitarians are not true worshippers.

The conclusion is based on a false dichotomy. Worship of the Son and the Spirit does not preclude worship of the Father but is an integral part of worshiping the one true God in spirit and truth.

2. Logical Flaws in the Argument
False Dichotomy

The argument assumes mutual exclusivity between worshiping the Father and worshiping the Son or the Spirit. However, Trinitarian theology posits unity within the Godhead, making worship of one person of the Trinity inherently worship of all.

Non-Sequitur
The conclusion does not follow from the premises. Even if true worshippers worship the Father (P1), it does not logically preclude them from also worshiping the Son and the Spirit as part of the same Godhead.

Misinterpretation of Worship
The argument fails to account for biblical passages where Jesus is explicitly worshiped (e.g., Matthew 28:17, Revelation 5:12-14) and where the Spirit’s role in worship is emphasized (John 4:24, Romans 8:26-27).

3. Biblical Evidence for Trinitarian Worship
Worship of the Son:

Hebrews 1:6: “Let all God’s angels worship him [the Son].”
Revelation 5:12-14: The Lamb (Christ) is worshiped alongside the Father.

Worship of the Spirit:

While explicit acts of worship of the Spirit are less prominent, the Spirit is worshiped through the believer's prayer and life (Romans 8:9-11, Ephesians 5:18-20).

Unity in Worship:

Matthew 28:19: The baptismal formula, "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit," reflects the unity of the Godhead in worship.

Conclusion
The argument fails to account for the biblical doctrine of the Trinity, which upholds the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the one Godhead. True worshippers can and do worship the Father, Son, and Spirit without contradiction, as the worship of each person is directed toward the one true God. The claim of mutual exclusivity is not supported by the biblical text or Trinitarian theology.

J.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

He absolutely WAS led by the Holy Spirit to write what he wrote! That's not in dispute. The question is, WHAT did he actually write in 1 John 5:7? We don't know, because many of the earliest extant versions of the Greek omit the language you quoted.

We know what John wrote actually was of the Lord... feel free to play like "we don't know" but you are speaking for yourself when you make that claim.

Ever see all the scriptures about the Father?
Ever see all the scriptures about the Jesus?
Ever see all the scriptures about the Holy Spirit?

Those that deny the whole counsel of the Lord do so at their own peril.

If you do not believe Jesus provided the content of what is in the Bible, then you have zero basis for being a Christians to start with as without the Bible we would not know of Jesus or God's plan of salvation at all

No, wrong. It had nothing to do with the trinity. It's about the relationship between Father and Son. Begotten, when used in scripture, was used exclusively to describe generational birth. John was the only one to use the word in relation to Jesus. John knew what the word meant, and as you say, he used it to prove that Jesus was truly the literal Son of God, as opposed to the several heretical theories that were floating around at that time last in the 1st century.

In other words, God's Word verifies God is one God but in 3 parts

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Concerning the trinity... the Father, the Son, and the Spirit... are One!

Pretty hard to explain away something scripture clearly tells us which is... One is Three, and the Three are One.

We have the Spirit of God (Yahwehs Power) coming down upon the Lord Jesus and the Father approving voice from Heaven.

This verifies God is one God but in 3 parts

Spirit of Truth comes from the Father and it is He who dwells in us by His Spirit.

So you then acknowledge that you reject Jesus then?

WHO do you think the Spirit of Christ is?

 

[Wrangler]

In other words, God's Word verifies God is one God but in 3 parts

What do you make of the fact God’s Word does not actually say this, at 1 John 5:7 or anywhere else?

 

[Dan Clarkston]

What do you make of the fact God’s Word does not actually say this, at 1 John 5:7 or anywhere else?

Ever see all the scriptures about the Father?
Ever see all the scriptures about the Jesus?
Ever see all the scriptures about the Holy Spirit?

Pretty hard to explain away something scripture clearly tells us which is... One is Three, and the Three are One.

But, those continually trying to explain this away will keep doing so in vain due to their refusal to accept all that the Lord says in His Word.

 

[Wrangler]

What do you make of the fact God’s Word does not actually say this, at 1 John 5:7 or anywhere else?

@Dan Clarkston, can’t answer my question, huh?

Ever see all the scriptures about the Holy Spirit?

Just because there are verses about a thing - with no name and no authority- does not make it a trinity verse.

 

[APAK]

True worshippers worship the Father. (John 4:23)
Clarification of the Text: John 4:23 states, “But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him.”

The verse emphasizes the quality of worship (spiritual and truthful) rather than the exclusivity of worship to the Father alone.
The text does not deny worship of the Son or the Spirit but highlights worship of the Father as central within the Godhead.

Biblical Context: Trinitarian theology affirms the worship of the Father as part of worshiping the one true God (Deuteronomy 6:4), who exists in three persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Worship of the Father inherently includes worship of the Son and the Spirit.

P2. Trinitarians do not worship (ONLY) the Father.

Misrepresentation of Trinitarian Worship:

Trinitarians do worship the Father but also recognize that worshiping the Son and the Spirit is consistent with biblical revelation.
In John 5:23, Jesus states, “That all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.” This demonstrates that worship of the Son is inseparable from worship of the Father.
Philippians 2:10-11 declares, “At the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” Worshiping Christ glorifies the Father, not contradicts His worship.

C. Trinitarians are not true worshippers.

The conclusion is based on a false dichotomy. Worship of the Son and the Spirit does not preclude worship of the Father but is an integral part of worshiping the one true God in spirit and truth.

2. Logical Flaws in the Argument
False Dichotomy

The argument assumes mutual exclusivity between worshiping the Father and worshiping the Son or the Spirit. However, Trinitarian theology posits unity within the Godhead, making worship of one person of the Trinity inherently worship of all.

Non-Sequitur
The conclusion does not follow from the premises. Even if true worshippers worship the Father (P1), it does not logically preclude them from also worshiping the Son and the Spirit as part of the same Godhead.

Misinterpretation of Worship
The argument fails to account for biblical passages where Jesus is explicitly worshiped (e.g., Matthew 28:17, Revelation 5:12-14) and where the Spirit’s role in worship is emphasized (John 4:24, Romans 8:26-27).

3. Biblical Evidence for Trinitarian Worship
Worship of the Son:

Hebrews 1:6: “Let all God’s angels worship him [the Son].”
Revelation 5:12-14: The Lamb (Christ) is worshiped alongside the Father.

Worship of the Spirit:

While explicit acts of worship of the Spirit are less prominent, the Spirit is worshiped through the believer's prayer and life (Romans 8:9-11, Ephesians 5:18-20).

Unity in Worship:

Matthew 28:19: The baptismal formula, "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit," reflects the unity of the Godhead in worship.

Conclusion
The argument fails to account for the biblical doctrine of the Trinity, which upholds the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the one Godhead. True worshippers can and do worship the Father, Son, and Spirit without contradiction, as the worship of each person is directed toward the one true God. The claim of mutual exclusivity is not supported by the biblical text or Trinitarian theology.

J.

True worshippers worship the Father. (John 4:23)
Clarification of the Text: John 4:23 states, “But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him.”

The verse emphasizes the quality of worship (spiritual and truthful) rather than the exclusivity of worship to the Father alone.
The text does not deny worship of the Son or the Spirit but highlights worship of the Father as central within the Godhead.

Biblical Context: Trinitarian theology affirms the worship of the Father as part of worshiping the one true God (Deuteronomy 6:4), who exists in three persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Worship of the Father inherently includes worship of the Son and the Spirit.

..

J.

What a bunch of bunk. Are you for real here.....you are over-the-top again...

John 4:23 is clear that one worships the Father in spirit and truth. And its the Father himself seeking this form of worship.

This verse is NOT about quality of worship as you attempt to add in more of your Trinity poison pills into the mix. And then you scurry across the ground to avoid getting flattened again, to say well it does not say or deny you cannot worship the Son in the same way.
Yeh it does say a lot of things not intended to say in this verse.

It does not deny you cannot worship the evil one either, now does it?! And a genuine believer would gasp of such an idea.
And the verse DOES NOT in any way shape of form highlight the worship of the Father as center stage in any pagan Trinity gods arrangement either, as in your Trinity. You are evil in your thoughts J. How can anyone take you seriously anymore. You are a deep branded pagan religionist who will stop at nothing to make things up to support your corrupted form of religion.

And as for your godhead, that was a later edition into the NT by Wycliffe who most probably innocently altered the idea of divinity into what came to be a deceptive and useful Trinity tool, the non-biblical godhood as it was first called, and turn its meaning as if there's a triad nature in divinity....

What are you capable of next?

 

[MonoBiblical]

What do you make of the fact God’s Word does not actually say this, at 1 John 5:7 or anywhere else?

1 John 5:7 affirms 3 witnesses who are not the same. The Father is the word, and the Holy Spirit is part of it, but the son goes unmentioned til later. Parts of him witness on the earth. The passage was not as trinitarian as it once seemed.

 

[Wrangler]

And they you scurry across the ground to avoid getting flattened again, to say well it does not say or deny you cannot worship the Son in the same way.

I’m realizing I do need to amend the pillars the trinity must violate at every turn to include implications from logic, deductive AND inductive reasoning.

Here @Johann demands explicit Scripture to state what is already implied:

1. If Jesus is the son of God, that implies he is not God.
2. If the Father is the only true God, it implies the trinitarian god is false.
3. If true worshippers worship the father, it implies worshipping the trinity god is false.
4. If God is greater than Jesus, it implies inequality.
5. Given that Jesus sits at the RH of God implies he is NOT God (for one does not sit on their own side).
6. Given that Jesus’ authority does not include God, because God gave him his authority, it implies that Jesus is not God.
7. In Rev 1:1, God gives Jesus the revelation. This implies the resurrected Jesus, sitting at God’s throne in heaven is STILL not God.

 

[Wrangler]

1 John 5:7 affirms 3 witnesses who are not the same.

On the corruption of 1 John 5:7-8, the “Comma Johanneum” – Trinities

trinities.org

 

[ProDeo]

We have fully explored how Jesus cannot be God the Son so no point in dealing with that again.

We did touch on God the Holy Spirit, and I believe there are at 6-7 seperate questions still unanswered in this thread which I can repost....Johann couldn't answer them, but maybe you would like to try?

No one argues God is not the Father and Jesus is the Son of God...and the HS is the Power of God often personified as it comes from God Himself.

F2F

Again, makes me wonder if you understand what you are criticizing, in more detail then -

Official definition of the Godhead :

. God, the Father
. God, the Son
. God, the Holy Spirit
. Three distinct Persons.
. All 3 UNCREATED always existed, no beginning, no end.
. And They are ONE.

Let's stick to ONLY 3 key verses that can't be denied.

1. The Word was God and the Word became flesh. [John 1]
2. I and the Father are one. [John 10:30]
3. Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” [John 20:28]

I assume we agree these 3 passages must fit with the rest of the Scriptures.

Examples -

So when Yahweh (I AM) says - Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one then the other two PERSONS in the Godhead agree because They are ONE.

When Jesus says - Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven then the Father and the Holy Spirit agree because They are ONE.

Hebr 3:7- Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says, Today, if you hear his voice, then the Father and Jesus agree because They are ONE.

BTW, the Holy Spirit is a separate Person, not only in this verse -

Acts 5:3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to man but to God.”

This verse shows that when you lie to the Holy Spirit you lie to God as well, because They are ONE.

You may as well disagree with me, but at least I hope you now understand what you are arguing against.

Please let me know if you understand what the Godhead is about.

 

[ProDeo]

No, my friend. You have a psychological wall or as the Bible puts it, not eyes to see or ears to hear. Let’s return to the basics to avoid confusion and unnecessary confusion.

Just don't call me a liar again.

 

[ProDeo]

It's self-deception Pro!

Please don't say this kind of things.