Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[Pierac]

Act_17:29 'Being, therefore, offspring of God, we ought not to think the Godhead to be like to gold, or silver, or stone, graving of art and device of man;

Rom_1:20 for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world, by the things made being understood, are plainly seen, both His eternal power and Godhead—to their being inexcusable;

Col_2:9 because in him doth tabernacle all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,--

Correct you are.

J.

No One but God is Good

One day a "rich young ruler" came to Jesus and asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" (Luke 18:18). Jesus replied, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone" (v. 19). The traditional explanation I was taught is that Jesus stops this young man right in his tracks because he needed to realize that Jesus really was God. It is as if Jesus said, "Don't you realize who I am? I am God Himself. Don't call me ‘good’ without remembering this. Recognize who it is you are talking to!" Sound a bit strained? Whilst admitting that Jesus’ reply is difficult I think there's a better explanation. Jesus was saying that he himself is not God. This is the natural, obvious sense so let's look at it in more detail.

The word for "good" here is the Greek word agathos. It is an adjective which according to the G. Abbott-Smith, A Manual Greek lexicon of the New Testament, third edition. Agathos properly refers to "inner excellence." In Joseph Henry Thayer’s, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, agathos when used of God refers to the fact that He is completely, perfectly, and essentially good.

Jesus says that only God is agathos or good. It refers to God's holiness, his "otherness," that which sets Him apart from all of His creation. On the practical level it means that God cannot help being good, God cannot sin, nor can He even be tempted to sin. God alone is "incorruptible" and immortal (1 Tim 1:17).

On the other hand, Jesus reject for himself the description agathos, that inner quality of perfection which belongs only to God. "In essence he rejects this divine attribute of holiness and, on the negative side, he rejects incorruptibility." This means that Jesus was a real human being and had the option of being either good or bad. Jesus’ temptations were real; he could have succumbed and failed. For he was not agathos, that is not good, and not God in the absolute sense of the word. This means that he was liable to corruption (Acts 2:27). But it also means his victories were real. The Bible teaches that Jesus learned obedience (Heb.5:8). God the Father has never had to learn goodness.

Truly, there was a certain goodness that Jesus did possess. His was a goodness unique in human history. We know that he "increased [grew] in wisdom, in stature, and in favor with God and with man" (Luke 2:52). This was the sinless goodness that had been possible for Adam, originally. This is the goodness that qualified him to be the Good Shepherd who gave his life as a sacrifice for us. But the word describing him as "The Good Shepherd" (John 10:11) is a different Greek word, kalos, meaning morally excellent and worthy of recognition. This type of goodness certainly describes our Savior.

So what does this all mean? Evidently when the young man addressed Jesus as "Good Teacher" Jesus took offense. His response indicates a rebuke in fact: "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone." (This crucial phrase ei me heis ho theos may also be translated "but the one God," which is a strong unitary monotheistic affirmation from Jesus’ lips: "no one is good but the one God.")

The Trinitarian Raymond E. Brown in his book, An Introduction to New Testament Christology writes, "The text strongly distinguishes between Jesus and God, and that a description of himself to which Jesus objected was applicable to God. From this text, one would never suspect that the evangelist referred to Jesus and God."

Surely we do not honor the Lord Jesus when we attribute to him what he himself rejected and what belongs only to his Father in heaven? If confirmation that this is the correct interpretation is sought, and we need only to turn to revelations 15. After his resurrection and ascension into heaven Jesus is seen leading the worship directed to God his Father. All the victorious Saints of God singing "the song of Moses, the bond-servant of God, and the song of the lamb, saying, ‘Great and marvelous are Your works, O LORD God, the Almighty… Who will not fear, O LORD and glorify Your Name? ForYou alone are Holy" (v. 3-4). Even now in heaven the Lord Jesus’ confession is that his Father "alone" is holy. As the lamb of God, Jesus still worships God his Father as the only one who is good! Only his Father, the Lord God Almighty, is the source of all moral excellence. How much better to agree with our Lord Jesus and confess that there is only one who is good, that is God. Jesus rejects the identification of himself with the one true and good God in Luke 18:19.

Your welcome....

 

[Pierac]

Act_17:29 'Being, therefore, offspring of God, we ought not to think the Godhead to be like to gold, or silver, or stone, graving of art and device of man;

Rom_1:20 for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world, by the things made being understood, are plainly seen, both His eternal power and Godhead—to their being inexcusable;

Col_2:9 because in him doth tabernacle all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,--

Correct you are.

J.

ACT

What does the missionary book of the early church say about Jesus and Lord? One could say it would be a safe place to see how the apostolic Christians understood it. A good place to turn. The book of Acts present us with a clear and unified testimony of the apostles’ witness. It is significant that nowhere in Acts do the apostles say that believing that Jesus is Jehovah, the Lord God, is an essential requirement for salvation. Peter, who had been given the keys to the kingdom, called Jesus "a man accredited to you by God" (Acts 2:22).

The Bible states that after his sermon on the day of Pentecost about 3000 persons were saved. If Peter thought it was essential to believe that Jesus was Almighty God he did not say so in his first sermon. If it is necessary to believe in the Trinity to enter the Kingdom of God then Peter forgot to mention this essential fact on this definitive day. This proves is not necessary to believe that Christ is God in order to be saved. When preaching to these Jews Peter presents a Messiah who is the descendent of King David (v.30). He is one who would have rotted and decayed in the grave like any other man had not God raised him up again (v.24-32). Because God authenticated "this Jesus" by resurrecting him (thus reversing the national verdict accusing him of blasphemy, that is, claiming to be God's Messiah), Jesus is now "exulted to the right hand of God" (v. 33). God has thus sealed "this Jesus whom you crucified" (v.36) and declared him as "Lord and Messiah" to the nation of Israel and "for all who are far off" (the Gentiles as well, v.39). The proof of his Messiahship is that the Holy Spirit has been poured out. Every Jew believed that the dawning of the new Messianic age would usher in a mighty outpouring of God Spirit. This Jewish audience knew that Peter statements meant that the God of their fathers, Jehovah, had raise Jesus in fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies concerning the Christ. Their understanding that "Jesus is Lord" was governed by their understanding of the messianic fulfillment of Psalms 110 as Peter quotes it in Acts here. No unitary monotheistic Jew would have taken Peter statements in Acts 2 to mean that Messiah was Jehovah God. It must be interpreted with Hebrew eyes this same pattern is followed throughout Acts.

In the next chapter, Peter calls Jesus anything but the Lord God. Jesus is called God’s "servant" twice (Acts 3:13, 26); God's "Christ" (v. 18:20); "the Prince of life" (a title nowhere in the Bible applied to God, v.15); the "prophets" whom Moses predicted (v.22,23). In fact, Peter is very careful not to confuse the identity of the Lord God and this Jesus who is the Lord Messiah. Note verse 13 where Peter says, "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers as glorified his servant Jesus, the one whom you delivered up, and disowned in the presence of pilate, when he had decided to release him." This same expression " The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" appears in Exodus 3:15 where God tells Moses to announce to the people that "The LORD [YHWH], they got of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, has sent me to you" (Ex 3:15). The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob equals the LORD (Jehovah). Here in Acts 3:13 it is "The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers" who has now "glorified his servant Jesus."

Is Jesus then the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers? Absolutely not! This would make complete nonsense of the text. The God of Abraham glorified who? Himself? No: His servant Jesus. Jesus is not the God of Abraham. Jesus is not Jehovah, the LORD. He is God anointed one, God's servant.

In Acts 10 the same distinction appears again. Peter says, "You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how he went about doing good, and healing all who were oppressed by the devil; for God was with him" (v. 38). Who anointed Jesus? God anointed Jesus of Nazareth. And the whole purpose of anointing somebody is so they might receive the power and ability to fulfill their commission. If I said, "The king anointed the prince" you would not possibly think the prince was the king. In the same way Jesus is the "Prince of life" (Acts 3:15) whom God anointed. Jesus applied in Messianic prophecy of Isaiah 61 to himself when he read these words in the synagogue after his baptism by John: "The spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because the LORD [Jehovah] has anointed me" (v.61; Luke 4:16-21). The person who is anointed is not the LORD Jehovah. God does not need to anoint God! Jehovah God anoints Jesus the Messiah. That is what Jesus claims for himself, and what Peter announces time and again.

I do not have the time nor the space here to go through every chapter in the book of Acts to prove this. But I encourage you to do to this for yourself. Take a colored marker, and you may well be surprised at the frequency and consistency in this topic. What was the message that Paul preach after his dramatic conversion experience? That Jesus is Jehovah God? Of course not, for his message was consistent with the rest of the apostles’ testimony: "Immediately he began to proclaim Jesus in the synagogue, saying, ‘He is the son of God’" (Acts 19:20). In fact, Paul kept increasing in strength "and confounding the Jews who lived at Damascus site proving that this Jesus is the Messiah" (v.22). To be the son of God is to be the Messiah: Same message! In fact, while you're at it, take the same colored marker and go through the rest of the New Testament. You'll be amazed at the distinction the Scriptures make between God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (You could try 1Cor. 1:3; 8:6; 2 Cor. 1:2; Phil. 1:2; 4:20; 1 Thess. 1:1; 3:13; 2 Thess. 1:2; 2:16; 1 Tim. 1:2; 2Tim. 1:2; Titus 1:4; Gal. 1:3.)

In other words, there is no person the whole book of Acts or any other New Testament book that requires you to believe that Jesus is the Lord God, Jehovah, in order to enter the Kingdom. In all the books of Acts there is no preaching of the Trinity. Yet in Acts thousands were saved according to the scriptural record. This should be conclusive proof that the Trinity was not part of early apostolic doctrine.

The confession "Jesus is Lord" must be understood in its Jewish environment and historical time frame. Unfortunately, we have seen, through the pressure of culture and politics, the persona of Jesus has been reshaped into one neither he or his apostles would recognize.

Try harder, litte girl

 

[APAK]

Understanding the New Creation in Christ Jesus is paramount to having the Original Gospel in your possession!

And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. Col 1:18

After he had provided purification for sins (death & resurrection), he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. Heb 1:3

and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord Romans 1:4

This is the realisation of the New Man who "put on" Divine Nature ascended the Heavens and was seated at the right hand of the Father on High.

When all God's Children are changed it will be known that Jesus really was the first-born from among the dead!

F2F

Last statement will be an eye-opener to some...and with his, and our new 'divine' qualities of his Father and ours.

 

[Pierac]

“Christ” God or title?

Dr. Hugh Schonfield, in his book the Passover Plot. Reported that many Christians he spoke with were not even aware that the term "Christ" was simply a Greek translation of the Hebrew title Messiah, and thought somehow that it referred to the Second Person of the Trinity. "So connected had the word ‘Christ’ become with the idea of Jesus as God incarnate that the title ‘Messiah’ was treated as something curiously Jewish and not associated.”

N.T. Write, the Bishop of Litchfield, agrees: “One of the most persistent mistakes throughout the literature on Jesus and the last hundred years is to use the word ‘Christ,’ which simply means ‘Messiah’, as though it was a ‘divine’ title.” Who was Jesus? p.57.

According to its OT usage, the term Messiah, the Anointed One, indicates a call to office.

Most certainly, it was not the title of an aspect of the Godhead. This is a later Gentile invention that came about by ignoring Jesus’ Jewish context and inventing a doctrine called the Incarnation- the idea that a second member of the Trinity, God the son, became a human being. As Lockhart says, in Jesus the Heretic, p.137. “Christianity ignored the ‘Messiah’ and theologically worked the ‘Christ’ up into the ‘God-Man.’ Jesus as the ‘Messiah’ is a human being; Jesus as the ‘Christ’ is something entirely different.”

Jesus calls himself "a man" (John 8:40) "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. and the apostles call him "a man" (Acts 2: 22; 1 Tim. 2:5). Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- 1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, He is constantly contrasted with and distinguished from God, his Father.

The Hebrew Bible or OT, predicted Jesus would be a man (Is.53:3). But never does the scriptures use the term "God-Man" to tell us who Jesus is. The Greek language of the day had a perfectly good word for “God-Man” (theios aner) but it never appears in the New Testament. So why do we persist with these extra-biblical terms? Why do we continue to employ non-biblical (i.e. unbiblical) language to describe Jesus?

The Bible verse saying is true which says that we are very quick to spot the speck in the eye of another's theology, but how blind we are to the beam in our own. Mary is not the mother of God, according to the scriptures. And neither is Jesus God the Son, nor is he the "God-Man" according to the Bible. And he is nowhere called "God of from God" as the later Nicene Creed called him. Protestants, people of the Bible ought to know that the contentious extra-biblical word used at Nicea, homoousios, meaning ‘of equal substance,’ “did not come from Scripture but, of all things, from Gnostic systems.” Quote from Born Before All-Time? p. 500. Kuschel.

The result was that such terminology introduced alien notions into Christian understanding of God. In other words, "an epoch-making paradigm shift has taken place between Scriptures and Nicea.” Born Before All-Time? p. 503. Kuschel

To the Jewish mind, accustomed to Old Testament teaching on the principles of agency and representation by which God appoints a man to speak or act on his behalf, such a concept was both familiar and acceptable. Whilst it is true that some of Christ's enemies believed him to be usurping or laying claim unlawfully to certain Divine rights or powers, not a single Jew ever thought that the miracles performed by Christ proved that he was a Divine being, and the gospel record indicates that many recognised that he was a man Divinely appointed to exercise power and authority on God's behalf.

 

[Magdala]

I mean essence in the sense of nature.

I understand, but your understanding that the doctrine of the Holy Trinity is the belief that God is "one essence, but three essences" is false, but rather that God exists in three Persons: the Father, the Son (the Word), and the Holy Spirit, each distinct, united as one because They are the same Essence: love.

Yes, it is clear that God operates through a plurality of being who are called angels and saints in training!

You said that there's shown to be a plurality within unity regarding God in Scripture. How are God and angels one?

 

[face2face]

I understand, but your understanding that the doctrine of the Holy Trinity is the belief that God is "one essence, but three essences" is false, but rather that God exists in three Persons: the Father, the Word (Son), and the Holy Spirit, each distinct, united as one because They are the same Essence: love.

I meant essence in terms of three divine beings being seperate i.e God one essense in one location; Jesus with another essense in another location (duality as well!) and the HS the same. Understand? Three essence's (nature) but one.

You said that there's shown to be a plurality within unity regarding God in Scripture. How are God and angels one?

The Master can teach you...

that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. John 17:21-23

It's called God manifestation and this forum is ignorant of it!

F2F

 

[Magdala]

I meant essence in terms of three divine beings being seperate i.e God one essense in one location; Jesus with another essense in another location (duality as well!) and the HS the same. Understand? Three essence's (nature) but one.

The doctrine of the Holy Trinity isn't the belief that God exists in three essences, but rather three Persons: the Father, the Son (the Word), and the Holy Spirit, each distinct, united as one because They are the same Essence: love.

The Master can teach you...

that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. John 17:21-23

It's called God manifestation and this forum is ignorant of it!

There's no mention of angels in Jn. 17, much less an explanation of how God and the angels are one.

 

[face2face]

There's no mention of angels in Jn. 17, much less an explanation of how God and the angels are one.

Angels don't need praying for to be one with God and Jesus as they already share this - they are divine beings...but your avoidance is noted lol

 

[Magdala]

Angels don't need praying for to be one with God and Jesus as they already share this - they are divine beings...but your avoidance is noted lol

Avoidance of what? Jn. 17:13-25 is the Word speaking to the Father about Themselves and His disciples, not of how God and angels are one. Do you even know what it means to say that God and angels are one?

 

[Pierac]

The doctrine of the Holy Trinity isn't the belief that God exists in three essences, but rather three Persons: the Father, the Word (Son), and the Holy Spirit, each distinct, united as one because They are the same Essence: love.

So you need non-biblical words to describe what you think the bible means to say?

So....
The Doctrine of the Trinity claims that Jesus is God, and it is for this reason the doctrine claims that Jesus is thus omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient, equal in all ways to the Father. In this short post we will be discussing the latter, is Jesus omniscient? God is definitely omniscient, thus in order for the Doctrine of the Trinity to hold true, Jesus must also be omniscient. If he is not, then there must be something wrong with this doctrine. At the same time, if we find Jesus not to be omniscient then we also arrive at the conclusion that Jesus is not equal to the Father. If Jesus does not know one thing that the Father knows, then obviously he is not omniscient, and if he is not omniscient like the Father, then he is not equal to the Father either.

Yes Jesus did know somethings that show us he is way above the average man, this is because he is anointed (Messiah), not because he is God. The Prophets all received revelations from God, information that only God and that prophet knew, but this did not mean that the prophets were God. Jesus as we shall see also receives revelations from God, this is why he knows things that other men do not.

(Webster’s Dictionary) Omniscient - knowing all things-the Omniscient God-.

Mark 13:32: "No one knows the day or hour, not even the angels in Heaven nor the Son, but ONLY the Father."

This is a very conclusive statement. Jesus admits that he does not know the day or hour, and that ONLY the Father knows. This alone is enough to show us that Jesus is not omniscient.

Luke 8:45: "Jesus then asked, ‘Who touched me?"

This episode is about a woman who needs healing who touches Jesus in a crowd. Jesus responds by saying, "Who touched me?" It is obvious that he does not know who touched him. We cannot say that he knew but was just asking for whatever reason. This would be to speculate on a grand scale. It would be adding to what the Bible says. Just read the Bible. He did not know. He is not all knowing.

Revelation 1:1: "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show his servants what must happen soon."

Who received a revelation? Jesus Christ. Who gave it to him? GOD! God gave Jesus a revelation to show his servants what must happen soon. Vines Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words defines revelation as:

Revelation – The communication of the knowledge of God.

(Webster’s Dictionary) Revelation – God’s disclosure to humanity of Himself.

Jesus received a communication, a disclosure FROM GOD. God knew something that Jesus did not know. Again, Jesus is not omniscient.

John 12:49: "For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it."

In this verse the Father is showing Jesus how to say something. Why does Jesus need to be shown how to do or say anything if he is already all knowing. Not to mention the fact that the Father is commanding the Son. This is not equality.

Luke 2:52: "And Jesus advanced in wisdom and age and favor before God and man."

He advanced in what? Wisdom. He was advancing in the knowledge of God. Someone who is all knowing does not need to advance in anything, especially wisdom.

Matthew 4:1: "Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert."

Why does Jesus need to be led? He is supposed to be equal with the Holy Spirit. He should know everything that the Spirit knows, although it is obvious that he does not. He needed to be led.

Matthew 26:39: "He advanced a little and fell prostrate in prayer, saying, ‘My Father if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; yet, not as I will, but as you will".

I will not go in depth into the fact that Jesus’will is not the same as the Father’s will, but do notice it.

Back to the original topic. Jesus knew that the cross awaited him and he wanted to see if there was any other way while still remaining in the will of God.

Jesus is asking the Father a question that he does not know the answer to. What does Jesus want to know? IF IT IS POSSIBLE? He does not know if it is. Someone who is asking another a question for which he does not have the answer to is not all knowing.

Conclusion – From the Scriptures above I do not see any way in which someone can conclude that Jesus is omniscient. Jesus knew many things, but he also did not know many things. This is not what being omniscient means. It means knowing EVERYTHING. Jesus is not omniscient and thus he is not equal to God. Who is Jesus then? Jesus is The Messiah, The Anointed one of God. This is what Messiah means, Anointed. The Messiah was never supposed to be God, he is supposed to be a man anointed by God’s Spirit. In order to understand who Jesus is we must first come to a good understanding of what Jesus’ most important title of Messiah means in depth. After all, he is Jesus the Christ (Messiah).

 

[face2face]

Avoidance of what? Jn. 17:13-25 is the Word speaking to the Father about Themselves and His disciples, not of how God and angels are one. Do you even know what it means to say that God and angels are one?

You're funny is an annoying sort of way!

For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven Mark 12:25

You seem to be resisting the Masters word at every post.

One Lux One!

It's crazy how Christians profess to know God yet have no idea of the Divine Family He has and is building.

F2F

 

[RedFan]

You claimed there could be a sense of father that means brother - by definition. Major fail.

We seem to be miscommunicating. There is NO sense of father that MEANS brother. I've said so twice now. But there is a sense of father, and of brother, that is not biological. And as a result of this, God could be our Father and Jesus our Brother yet both be God, because -- for the last time -- these are not mutually exclusive when taken in a nonbiological sense.

I'm finding this discussion, as I suspect you are, somewhat exhausting at this point. Let's move on. Brother.

 

[Pierac]

WAS JESUS REALLY TEMPTED or was it just Pretend for Trinitarians???

​

We are all familiar with the temptation of Jesus, but have most of us noticed how the temptation of Jesus makes the trinity an absurd impossibility. Let’s take a look at it in depth.

Matthew 4:1

"Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil."

James 1:13

"For God cannot be tempted by evil."

First, we see that Jesus is led by the Spirit into the desert. The Doctrine of the Trinity says that the three persons of the trinity are equal. If Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same being and are equal, why does Jesus have to be led into the desert? Does the Spirit know something that Jesus does not?

Secondly, we see the most obvious, Jesus is tempted, yet James clearly says that God cannot be tempted. So is James a liar, or are the man made creeds in error?

Mattew 4:5

"If you are the Son of God throw yourself down, For it is written: He will command His angels concerning you, and with their hands they will support you...Jesus answered him, Again it is written, You shall not put the Lord, your God to the test."

Notice that the devil calls him the Son of God not God. Satan knows God (read Job 1:6) yet he does not address Jesus as God but as the Son of God. Then Satan talks to Jesus about how God will save him if he jumps down. Jesus replies by saying, "You shall not put the Lord, your God to the test." Do you really believe that Jesus is referring to himself?

Matthew 4:8-11

"Then the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in their magnificence, and he said to him, All these I will give to you if you will prostrate yourself and worship me." At this Jesus said to him, "Get away Satan! It is written: The Lord, your God, shall you worship and Him alone shall you serve."

Why would the devil offer God things that are already His? Psalm 24:1 says:

"The earth is the LORD's and all it holds, the world and those who live there."

Even harder to believe is the idea that the devil really expected God to worship him so that he could give God what is His already. This is ridiculous! Then Jesus replies by saying, "The Lord, your God, shall you worship and Him alone shall you serve." Can you honestly read this and believe that Jesus is talking about himself?

The temptation episode is written to show us how Jesus put his faith in God in front of everything, especially the desires of the flesh (i.e. hunger, power). It shows us that it is possible to live a life in perfect accordance to God’s will. He is our role model. This is why he was made just like us. The Bible says that he was made like us in every way. Hebrews 2:17 says:

"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God."

(above) Jesus is going to serve God? I thought he was God? Back to Hebrews, Jesus is made in every way like his brothers. Well, then either Jesus is not God but His anointed, or I am God also.

If Jesus is God, then this whole temptation episode is a farce. God cannot expect me to live up to Jesus' standards like the Bible says I should when I am not a Godman like Jesus. The whole purpose of this episode was for Jesus to set the standard, the example of faith and conduct for us to follow. If it takes being God to accomplish this then why even bother?

The creeds say that Jesus was tempted but cannot sin. If you cannot sin, are you really being tempted? The dual nature idea does not remedy the problem either because the Chalcedon Creed which is the one that says that Jesus is fully God and fully man also says that the dual natures are not separable, they are indivisible, united at all times. By the way, this idea of dual natures is called Dualism and it comes from Greek philosophy.

Dualism - The view that reality may be divided into two essential forces. There are two forms of this understanding. From a cosmic perspective, the world struggles between two opposing forces - typically, one of evil and one of good. From a philosophical approach, the essence of a person is divided between two incompatible natures - that of the body and that of the soul. Early Christianity incorporated both views from those religions and philosophies with which it came in contact. This is the same concept used not only in Greek philosophy, but also in Greek mythology. Hercules is the son of Zeus and the mortal Alcmene. He had a dual nature, he was a man that had supernatural strength which he had inherited from his father Zeus. The Pharaohs were godmen and so were the Caesars. The Bible even provides us with an example of this belief in Acts 14:11 when God healed a crippled man through Paul and Barnabas:

"When the crowds saw what Paul had done, they cried out in Lycaonian, "The gods have come down to us in human form."

This idea of gods coming in human form was very prevalent throughout the Roman-Greco world. This is why it was so natural for people educated in Greek philosophies to incorporate this idea into Christianity.

Please read the Bible without injecting meanings that were never intended by its author.


REALLY.... How do you not know these things???

 

[Magdala]

You're funny in an annoying sort of way!

For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven Mark 12:25

You seem to be resisting the Masters word at every post.

One Lux One!

It's crazy how Christians profess to know God yet have no idea of the Divine Family He has and is building.

F2F

I'm not resisting anything by pointing out that Jn. 17:13-25 is the Word speaking to the Father about Themselves and His disciples, not angels. When you say that God and angels are one, do you know what that means? If so, tell us what you think that means.

 

[face2face]

I'm not resisting anything by pointing out that Jn. 17:13-25 is the Word speaking to the Father about Themselves and His disciples, not angels. When you say that God and angels are one, do you know what that means? If so, tell us what you think that means.

It's clear you can't put the records together. I'm happy to leave you in your willing ignorance for now.

F2F

 

[face2face]

@LuxMundi

Furthermore, you don't believe that the Saints can be one with God and Jesus in the same way they are one. The only way a person can achieve this oneness is by being transformed through the divine nature, the same nature that the Angels already possess!—sharing the same glory, nature, characteristics, and so on.

1 + 1 = 2!

by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. 1 Peter 1:4

Wow, you have Jesus stating the result is (like the angels) and which is Divine nature and now you have Peter teaching you the same thing!

Angels are already one with God in nature and purpose! The hope is the Saints to become the same = John 17

You made that terribly hard.

F2F

 

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Now for reasoning and scriptures….

1. If Christ’s throne is on the right hand of God, He is not within God and that position although important is second to God the Father. Mark 16:19 “So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into Heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”

2. If one had to leave before the other could come, as in the case of the Holy Spirit, this would suggest individuality. John 16:7

3. If there is any conversation at all between the three entities; that would indicate some individuality.

4. If the conversation included a request, like Yeshua asking His Father to bypass the cup (so-to-speak); it indicates individuality and hierarchy. Matthew 26:36-46

5. If the conversation is in the form of a pray. For example; Our Father which art in Heaven.....But the Son was standing before them. This indicates individuality and hierarchy.

6. If one God refers to Himself or others refer to Him as the Father and the other God refers to Himself or others refer to Him as the Son; This indicates individuality and hierarchy. This is particularly significant because this is a self defined and self described definition by God Himself. God decided to define their positions as God the Father and God the Son, so we would understand their relationship. God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son…. John 3:16

It was God that chose to describe Himself as a Father, so we could understand our relationship with Him and His relationship with His Son, in human terms. There is a clear authoritative aspect associated with the Father and Son relationship. There is no possible way of mistaking this relationship as equal or the same person. Yeshua was the begotten Son of Yahweh. Yahweh did not begot Himself.

7. Again, for God so love the world that He gave His only begotten Son...John 3:16 There is no part of this verse that suggest that He begot Himself, or sent Himself, or that his Son was Him. The meaning of the verse is that, it took a lot of love for God to offer His real Son as a sacrifice for the world. This verse is talking about two Gods. God the Father and God the Son.

8. If a person can sin against one God worse than the other...as in the case of the un-pardonable sin. This indicates separation of some sort as well as a very special uniqueness in regard to the Holy Spirit. Matthew 12:30-32

9. When Yeshua said, “...the father is greater than I.” John 14:28 --- then this is proof of His understanding of individuality and hierarchy.

10. Then he said, "And do not call anyone on earth your father, for One is your Father, He who is in Heaven. And do not be called leaders, for One is your Leader, that is, Christ." Matthew 23:9-10 This refers to Yahweh as Father and Christ as leader. Similar to other scriptures referring to Christ as the head of the Church.

11. But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. 1st Corinthians 11:3 This clearly defines hierarchal positions.

12. John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (How many ways does this prove two persons, in two places, God the Son referring to His Father as His God.) Matt. 27:46, Mark 15:34, John 20:17

13. There is not a single verse that would indicate or suggest that God the Father was crucified, or that They were crucified together, or that all three were crucified. Christ the God was crucified and ascended to His Father and took his place on a throne...at the right hand of His Father, His God, God Almighty. The storyline does not suggest that Christ is talking to Himself when He is talking to His Father.

I felt there were some very interesting points in here but next maybe reduce to 3 so its easier to reply. I started but it was well over the word count.

F2F

 

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@LuxMundi

“See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven. Matt 18:10

Do you think if the angels "see the face" of God they are one with Him?

Bless the LORD, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, obeying the voice of his word! Psalm 103:20

You really should know these Lux!

@Wrangler - I just had a thought (and yes it hurt a little) what will happen when Trinitarians discover the plurality of God is not 3, but an innumerable number - the Heavenly Host! How stupid will they feel?

 

[RLT63]

So you need non-biblical words to describe what you think the bible means to say?

So....
The Doctrine of the Trinity claims that Jesus is God, and it is for this reason the doctrine claims that Jesus is thus omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient, equal in all ways to the Father. In this short post we will be discussing the latter, is Jesus omniscient? God is definitely omniscient, thus in order for the Doctrine of the Trinity to hold true, Jesus must also be omniscient. If he is not, then there must be something wrong with this doctrine. At the same time, if we find Jesus not to be omniscient then we also arrive at the conclusion that Jesus is not equal to the Father. If Jesus does not know one thing that the Father knows, then obviously he is not omniscient, and if he is not omniscient like the Father, then he is not equal to the Father either.

Yes Jesus did know somethings that show us he is way above the average man, this is because he is anointed (Messiah), not because he is God. The Prophets all received revelations from God, information that only God and that prophet knew, but this did not mean that the prophets were God. Jesus as we shall see also receives revelations from God, this is why he knows things that other men do not.

(Webster’s Dictionary) Omniscient - knowing all things-the Omniscient God-.

Mark 13:32: "No one knows the day or hour, not even the angels in Heaven nor the Son, but ONLY the Father."

This is a very conclusive statement. Jesus admits that he does not know the day or hour, and that ONLY the Father knows. This alone is enough to show us that Jesus is not omniscient.

Luke 8:45: "Jesus then asked, ‘Who touched me?"

This episode is about a woman who needs healing who touches Jesus in a crowd. Jesus responds by saying, "Who touched me?" It is obvious that he does not know who touched him. We cannot say that he knew but was just asking for whatever reason. This would be to speculate on a grand scale. It would be adding to what the Bible says. Just read the Bible. He did not know. He is not all knowing.

Revelation 1:1: "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show his servants what must happen soon."

Who received a revelation? Jesus Christ. Who gave it to him? GOD! God gave Jesus a revelation to show his servants what must happen soon. Vines Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words defines revelation as:

Revelation – The communication of the knowledge of God.

(Webster’s Dictionary) Revelation – God’s disclosure to humanity of Himself.

Jesus received a communication, a disclosure FROM GOD. God knew something that Jesus did not know. Again, Jesus is not omniscient.

John 12:49: "For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it."

In this verse the Father is showing Jesus how to say something. Why does Jesus need to be shown how to do or say anything if he is already all knowing. Not to mention the fact that the Father is commanding the Son. This is not equality.

Luke 2:52: "And Jesus advanced in wisdom and age and favor before God and man."

He advanced in what? Wisdom. He was advancing in the knowledge of God. Someone who is all knowing does not need to advance in anything, especially wisdom.

Matthew 4:1: "Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert."

Why does Jesus need to be led? He is supposed to be equal with the Holy Spirit. He should know everything that the Spirit knows, although it is obvious that he does not. He needed to be led.

Matthew 26:39: "He advanced a little and fell prostrate in prayer, saying, ‘My Father if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; yet, not as I will, but as you will".

I will not go in depth into the fact that Jesus’will is not the same as the Father’s will, but do notice it.

Back to the original topic. Jesus knew that the cross awaited him and he wanted to see if there was any other way while still remaining in the will of God.

Jesus is asking the Father a question that he does not know the answer to. What does Jesus want to know? IF IT IS POSSIBLE? He does not know if it is. Someone who is asking another a question for which he does not have the answer to is not all knowing.

Conclusion – From the Scriptures above I do not see any way in which someone can conclude that Jesus is omniscient. Jesus knew many things, but he also did not know many things. This is not what being omniscient means. It means knowing EVERYTHING. Jesus is not omniscient and thus he is not equal to God. Who is Jesus then? Jesus is The Messiah, The Anointed one of God. This is what Messiah means, Anointed. The Messiah was never supposed to be God, he is supposed to be a man anointed by God’s Spirit. In order to understand who Jesus is we must first come to a good understanding of what Jesus’ most important title of Messiah means in depth. After all, he is Jesus the Christ (Messiah).

If Jesus is God, why did He not know when He would return? | GotQuestions.org

If Jesus is God, why did He not know when He would return? Was Jesus not omniscient while He was on earth?

www.gotquestions.org

 

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If Jesus is God, why did He not know when He would return? | GotQuestions.org

If Jesus is God, why did He not know when He would return? Was Jesus not omniscient while He was on earth?

www.gotquestions.org

Quote "The key to understanding Jesus’ seeming lack of knowledge in this matter lies in the nature of the Incarnation"

O boy, is this what we are dealing with now?

How many lies upon lies will you build your faith upon RLT?