Exploring Trinitarian Logic

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amigo de christo

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I am a man, for the record, and what I pointed out is that you conveniently overlook the verses that clearly affirm Jesus is God. Even the ISBE, which you use, is "selectively" cited-affirming the Triune Godhead--do you understand that?

It’s not appropriate for you to correct me with that tone. You get that?

J.
march onward in the trenches my friend .
You should see how some treat me friend . yet what is the water to a well oiled duck , its just slides off my friend .
its gonna get only worse in the times ahead my friend .
The time is coming and even now is when persecution shall only increase .
 
J

Johann

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march onward in the trenches my friend .
You should see how some treat me friend . yet what is the water to a well oiled duck , its just slides off my friend .
its gonna get only worse in the times ahead my friend .
The time is coming and even now is when persecution shall only increase .
Correct, I'm spiritually drained and should hit that trench-my apologies for my reaction to you in the past brother.

J.
 
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amigo de christo

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Correct, I'm spiritually drained and should hit that trench-my apologies for my reaction to you in the past brother.

J.
Oh it wasnt you i was talking about my friend . friend i have been called names
by folks should no christain even repeat . but as for the names i can repeat , anti christ , satan , are but a few .
 
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Grailhunter

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Yes, God is not modalism.

Years ago theologians and biblical scholars came up with theological labels. But as time went on they relized that that was a mistake. It is better to use the words of the scriptures because if you use labels the Word of God take on the meanings of the word of Man. The scriptures are the best source and examples and have characteristics that cannot be stuffed into labels because invariably meanings are lost.
 
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amigo de christo

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men who love thier god will never love THE GOD and will hate on those who speak the TRUTH of THE GOD .
and many often even sit within christendom . That aint me judging , that is but a simple truth .
 
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amigo de christo

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Years ago theologians and biblical scholars came up with theological labels. But as time went on they relized that that was a mistake. It is better to use the words of the scriptures because if you use labels the Word of God take on the meanings of the word of Man. The scriptures are the best source and examples and have characteristics that cannot be stuffed into labels because invariably meanings are lost.
Truly the word trinity should be replaced with GODHEAD again . like paul used .
 

amigo de christo

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Years ago theologians and biblical scholars came up with theological labels. But as time went on they relized that that was a mistake. It is better to use the words of the scriptures because if you use labels the Word of God take on the meanings of the word of Man. The scriptures are the best source and examples and have characteristics that cannot be stuffed into labels because invariably meanings are lost.
not only is it better to use the words of scripture but be sure that none are heeding or using scripture against scripture .
Cause if that is being done , ITS THE DOCTRINES of men gone wrong . Let that be a lesson and a reminder to us all .
 
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Johann

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Truly the word trinity should be replaced with GODHEAD again . like paul used .
Act_17:29 'Being, therefore, offspring of God, we ought not to think the Godhead to be like to gold, or silver, or stone, graving of art and device of man;

Rom_1:20 for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world, by the things made being understood, are plainly seen, both His eternal power and Godhead—to their being inexcusable;

Col_2:9 because in him doth tabernacle all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,--

Correct you are.

J.
 
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Magdala

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Fine. I don't see it as helpful to a better understanding, but maybe others will. Whatever works. Isolating the “stuff” of “Godness” strikes me as impossible to express in physical terms, so I prefer to stay away from tangible analogies like water (as opposed to sound or light). The physical structure of water, primarily its density, actually changes with temperature, which is a reason to be cautious in analogizing to its states to a triune God.

I agree, and you're correct that light serves as a more appropriate analogy, which is why, on July 1st, 1943, Jesus dictated to Maria Valtorta His comparison of the Holy Trinity to light: The Notebooks: 1943, because as He puts it "this [light] is the only thing that can represent God without being antithetical to His spiritual Essence."

When speaking with anti-trinitarians who believe that the Holy Trinity is three separate gods, I first introduce the water analogy to them, something simple and efficient enough to show that, regarding God, similar to water, there's a plurality within unity. If they can understand and accept that, then I can share His comparison of the Holy Trinity to light.
 
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RedFan

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MonoBiblical

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Johann typed: Colossians 1:16
ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα
"For by Him all things were created"

ἐν always means at or into; never 'by'. Strong's might disagree, but that one misrender changes the whole passage.

RSV, YLT, and ASV render it in. The Kingdom of God had place in him and for him. Exalted, yes, but dare you think you as a mortal get an image of that.
 
J

Johann

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Johann typed: Colossians 1:16
ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα
"For by Him all things were created"

ἐν always means at or into; never 'by'. Strong's might disagree, but that one misrender changes the whole passage.

RSV, YLT, and ASV render it in. The Kingdom of God had place in him and for him. Exalted, yes, but dare you think you as a mortal get an image of that.
Don't misrepresent my post or me. @MonoBiblical.

In him were created (en autōi ektisthē).

Paul now gives the reason (hoti, for) for the primacy of Christ in the work of creation (Col_1:16f.).

It is the constative aorist passive indicative ektisthē (from ktizō, old verb, to found, to create (Rom_1:25).

This central activity of Christ in the work of creation is presented also in Jhn_1:3; Heb_1:2 and is a complete denial of the Gnostic philosophy. The whole of creative activity is summed up in Christ including the angels in heaven and everything on earth. God wrought through “the Son of his love.” All earthly dignities are included.

Have been created (ektistai). Perfect passive indicative of ktizō, “stand created,” “remain created.” The permanence of the universe rests, then, on Christ far more than on gravity. It is a Christo-centric universe.

Through him (di' autou). As the intermediate and sustaining agent. He had already used en autōi (in him) as the sphere of activity.

And unto him (kai eis auton). This is the only remaining step to take and Paul takes it (1Co_15:28) See note on Eph_1:10 for similar use of en autōi of Christ and in Col_1:19, Col_1:20 again we have en autōi, di' autou, eis auton used of Christ. See note on Heb_2:10 for di' hon (because of whom) and di' hou (by means of whom) applied to God concerning the universe (ta panta). In Rom_11:35 we find ex autou kai di' autou kai eis auton ta panta referring to God. But Paul does not use ex in this connection of Christ, but only en, dia, and eis. See the same distinction preserved in 1Co_8:6 (ex of God, dia, of Christ).


KJV

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Col 1:16 for it was through Him that everything was created in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen, thrones, dominions, principalities, authorities; all things have been created through Him and for Him.

Col 1:16 ForG3754 byG1722 himG846 wereG2936 all thingsG3956 createdG2936 [G5681], that are inG1722 heavenG3772, andG2532 that are inG1909 earthG1093, visibleG3707 andG2532 invisibleG517, whetherG1535 they be thronesG2362, orG1535 dominionsG2963, orG1535 principalitiesG746, orG1535 powersG1849: all thingsG3956 were createdG2936 [G5769] byG1223 himG846, andG2532 forG1519 himG846:

Col 1:16 because ὅτι in ἐν Him αὐτῷ were created ἐκτίσθη - τὰ all things πάντα in ἐν the τοῖς heavens οὐρανοῖς and καὶ upon ἐπὶ the τῆς earth, γῆς, the τὰ visible ὁρατὰ and καὶ the τὰ invisible, ἀόρατα, whether εἴτε thrones θρόνοι or εἴτε lordships κυριότητες or εἴτε rulers ἀρχαὶ or εἴτε authorities; ἐξουσίαι· - τὰ all things πάντα have been created ἔκτισται· through δι’ Him αὐτοῦ and καὶ unto εἰς Him. αὐτὸν

Transliteration: en
Morphology: Prep
Preposition
Strong's no.: G1722 (ἐν, ἐμμέσῳ, ἐννόμως)
Meaning: In, on, among.

I always proof read and check WHAT I post for God's glory and not my ego. And quote the whole, not a snippet of what I have posted. If I misunderstood you, let me know.

J.
 
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Wrangler

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Isolating the “stuff” of “Godness” strikes me as impossible to express in physical terms
Even if one could, it is really irrelevant. You are a person, regardless of the stuff that makes you up. Ge 1:3 God said ‘let there be light.’

Nowhere is it suggested a 3-person person said the words of God. Rather, God is referred to as singular pronoun about 5,000 times. That should count for something more nothing, especially in light of the 1st Commandment.
 
J

Johann

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Even if one could, it is really irrelevant. You are a person, regardless of the stuff that makes you up. Ge 1:3 God said ‘let there be light.’

Nowhere is it suggested a 3-person person said the words of God. Rather, God is referred to as singular pronoun about 5,000 times. That should count for something more nothing, especially in light of the 1st Commandment.
You are a Jehovah's Witness, if not, you watch way to many sports.

J.
 

RedFan

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Johann typed: Colossians 1:16
ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα
"For by Him all things were created"

ἐν always means at or into; never 'by'. Strong's might disagree, but that one misrender changes the whole passage.

RSV, YLT, and ASV render it in. The Kingdom of God had place in him and for him. Exalted, oe, but dare you think you as a mortal get an image of that.
How about Matt. 9:34? I will go with "by" for that one, or maybe "by means of" or "through" (just like King Jimmie does).
 
J

Johann

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How about Matt. 9:34? I will go with "by" for that one, or maybe "by means of" or "through" (just like King Jimmie does).
Feel sorry for the translators.

Mat 9:34 The01 Yet02 Pharisees03 Said04 In05 The06 Chief07 Of-the08 Demons09 he-is-casting-out10 The11 Demons12

By the prince of the devils (en tōi archonti tōn daimoniōn).

3) "Through the prince of the devils." (en to archonti ton daimonion) "By means, instrument, or agency of the ruler (prince) of the demons;" They falsely attributed to Jesus "demon powers," under whose control they themselves were held, Mat_12:24; Mar_3:22; Luk_11:15. Prejudice caused them to call Jesus a devil, a Samaritan, winebibber, and a friend of publicans.

Part of Speech: definite article
Case: Dative (indirect object, "to"; also location "in", "at"; instrument, "with")
Number: Singular
Gender: Masculine

J.
 
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