Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[ProDeo]

OT - God created in company with his “master workman”. (Prov 8:30-32)

Oh, I read Proverbs 8 quite different than you, Proverbs 8 is not about Christ, it's about Wisdom, and Wisdom is female, a she.

Spr 8:1 Does not wisdom call? Does not understanding raise her voice?
Spr 8:2 On the heights beside the way, at the crossroads she takes her stand;
Spr 8:3 beside the gates in front of the town, at the entrance of the portals she cries aloud:
Spr 8:4 “To you, O men, I call, and my cry is to the children of man.
Spr 8:5 O simple ones, learn prudence; O fools, learn sense.

Another key verse -
Spr 8:12 “I, wisdom, [female] dwell with prudence, and I find knowledge and discretion.

After which all the "I"'s in the next verses has to be read as Wisdom.

Including as the master workman in verse 30.

NT - God created “through” his master workman. (John 1:2-3; Col 1:15-17)

No reference to Proverbs 8 (female Wisdom) present in John 1:2-3; Col 1:15-17

Clearly stated and logical. Mind blowing only to those who can’t get past the trinity to see the simple truth.
“All things” were created by the one God created first. His “firstborn” and “only begotten” son.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

This is the first time God's only begotten Son is mentioned in Scripture, written by John decades after Jesus ascended to the Father, he is saying that Jesus became the only begotten Son at his birth on Earth when God became flesh as per John 1:14 in the person of Jesus Christ, not born by the will of men, but by the will of the Holy Spirit.

I can not agree with the JW translation of John 1:1
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. [JW]
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [real Bible]

Real Bible because in Greek the blue is the blue and not 2 separate words.

Exactly.....Scripture does not teach that God is three different “persons”.....who are all equals and therefore all hold the office and title of “God”. That is polytheism, which the true God YAHWEH, condemns. (Exodus 20:3)

And when the opposite is true?

Whether what the truth is, one of us will stand in shame.

@Johann, please correct me if I have said anything wrong on this difficult topic.

 

[Scott Downey]

Oh, I read Proverbs 8 quite different than you, Proverbs 8 is not about Christ, it's about Wisdom, and Wisdom is female, a she.

Spr 8:1 Does not wisdom call? Does not understanding raise her voice?
Spr 8:2 On the heights beside the way, at the crossroads she takes her stand;
Spr 8:3 beside the gates in front of the town, at the entrance of the portals she cries aloud:
Spr 8:4 “To you, O men, I call, and my cry is to the children of man.
Spr 8:5 O simple ones, learn prudence; O fools, learn sense.

Another key verse -
Spr 8:12 “I, wisdom, [female] dwell with prudence, and I find knowledge and discretion.

After which all the "I"'s in the next verses has to be read as Wisdom.

Including as the master workman in verse 30.



No reference to Proverbs 8 (female Wisdom) present in John 1:2-3; Col 1:15-17



Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

This is the first time God's only begotten Son is mentioned in Scripture, written by John decades after Jesus ascended to the Father, he is saying that Jesus became the only begotten Son at his birth on Earth when God became flesh as per John 1:14 in the person of Jesus Christ, not born by the will of men, but by the will of the Holy Spirit.

I can not agree with the JW translation of John 1:1
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. [JW]
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [real Bible]

Real Bible because in Greek the blue is the blue and not 2 separate words.



And when the opposite is true?

Whether what the truth is, one of us will stand in shame.

@Johann, please correct me if I have said anything wrong on this difficult topic.

Who assigned chapter and verse numbers?
They came much letter. They were not present in original texts.
Proverbs 8 could have been broken at verse 21- 22
Wisdom being referred to only in the verses above here is referenced to man and his ways, Not God and His ways.

Older versions like Geneva Bible footnotes say Proverbs 8 from 22 on is describing Christ.

Bible Gateway passage: Proverbs 8 - 1599 Geneva Bible

1 Wisdom declareth her excellency, 11 riches, 15 power, 22 eternity. 32 She exhorteth all to love and follow her. Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding utter her voice? She standeth in the top of the high places, by the way in the place of the paths. She crieth besides the gates before the city...

www.biblegateway.com

1. Proverbs 8:22 He declareth hereby the divinity and eternity of this wisdom, which he magnifieth and praiseth through this book: meaning thereby the eternal son of God Jesus Christ our Savior, whom Saint John calleth that word that was in the beginning, John 1:1.
2. Proverbs 8:23 He declareth the eternity of the Son of God, which is meant by this word, wisdom, who was before all time, and ever present with the father.
3. Proverbs 8:30 Some read, a chief worker: signifying that this wisdom, even Christ Jesus, was equal with God his father, and created, preserveth and still worketh with him, as John 5:17.
4. Proverbs 8:31 Whereby is declared that the work of the creation was no pain, but a solace unto the wisdom of God.
5. Proverbs 8:31 By earth he meaneth man, which is the work of God in whom wisdom took pleasure: insomuch as for man’s sake the divine wisdom took man’s nature, and dwelt among us, and filled us with unspeakable treasures: and this is that solace and pastime whereof is here spoken.

 

[Scott Downey]

Why Was the Bible Divided into Chapters and Verses?

In the original text of the Bible, there were no chapter or verse divisions. This sometimes proved difficult when believers wanted to cite particular passages, so chapter headings and verses were added for ease of reference and communication.

www.christianity.com

Why Was the Bible Divided into Chapters and Verses?
In the original text of the Bible, there were no chapter or verse divisions. This sometimes proved difficult when believers wanted to cite particular passages, so chapter headings and verses were added for ease of reference and communication.

 

[ProDeo]

Older versions like Geneva Bible footnotes say Proverbs 8 from 22 on is describing Christ.

Bible Gateway passage: Proverbs 8 - 1599 Geneva Bible

1 Wisdom declareth her excellency, 11 riches, 15 power, 22 eternity. 32 She exhorteth all to love and follow her. Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding utter her voice? She standeth in the top of the high places, by the way in the place of the paths. She crieth besides the gates before the city...

www.biblegateway.com

1. Proverbs 8:22 He declareth hereby the divinity and eternity of this wisdom, which he magnifieth and praiseth through this book: meaning thereby the eternal son of God Jesus Christ our Savior, whom Saint John calleth that word that was in the beginning, John 1:1.
2. Proverbs 8:23 He declareth the eternity of the Son of God, which is meant by this word, wisdom, who was before all time, and ever present with the father.
3. Proverbs 8:30 Some read, a chief worker: signifying that this wisdom, even Christ Jesus, was equal with God his father, and created, preserveth and still worketh with him, as John 5:17.
4. Proverbs 8:31 Whereby is declared that the work of the creation was no pain, but a solace unto the wisdom of God.
5. Proverbs 8:31 By earth he meaneth man, which is the work of God in whom wisdom took pleasure: insomuch as for man’s sake the divine wisdom took man’s nature, and dwelt among us, and filled us with unspeakable treasures: and this is that solace and pastime whereof is here spoken.

If Proverbs 8:22-31 were about Christ then Christ is created, that's not Trinity.

Reading "I" as Christ would mean -

Spr 8:22 “The LORD possessed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old.
Spr 8:23 Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth.
Spr 8:24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water.
Spr 8:25 Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth,

Hence "I" is Wisdom only.

 

[ProDeo]

There is no mention of the true Nephilim after the flood since all air breathing life perished.

Num 13:33 And there we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim), and we seemed to ourselves like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them.”

 

[ProDeo]

• One God: God is one being in Essence
  
  
• Three Persons: God is three distinct Persons (the Father, the Word (Son), and the Holy Spirit), each working differently and yet not working in contrary fashion, for the Essence is one
  
  
• United as one: The three Persons are united as one in Essence

Very good, you looked it up.

To be complete, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are un-created, always existed.

Impossible to understand, no analogy applies and yet true.

 

[Johann]

If Proverbs 8:22-31 were about Christ then Christ is created, that's not Trinity.

Reading "I" as Christ would mean -

Spr 8:22 “The LORD possessed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old.
Spr 8:23 Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth.
Spr 8:24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water.
Spr 8:25 Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth,

In the book of Proverbs, Chokmah (חָכְמָה), translated as "wisdom," is consistently presented as an attribute of YHVH (Yahweh), the eternal and unchanging God. This presentation has significant theological implications for the nature of Chokmah, especially when interpreted in light of Trinitarian or monotheistic thought.

Chokmah as an Attribute of God:

Chokmah is described as a fundamental aspect of God’s being and His work in the world. Proverbs 8, in particular, provides a vivid personification of Wisdom, presenting it as integral to God's creative process. Wisdom is not merely an abstract principle but is intricately woven into the fabric of the cosmos, revealing the divine mind and purpose in creation. Wisdom is said to have been with God "from the beginning" and plays an active role in the formation of the world (Proverbs 8:22-31).

"Uncreated" Nature of Chokmah:

Because Chokmah is an inherent quality of God, it is uncreated in the sense that it exists eternally within the divine essence.

Proverbs 8:23 states, "Ages ago I (Wisdom) was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth."

The phrasing emphasizes the pre-existence of Wisdom, indicating that it was present before time itself and before any created thing came into being.

In this context, Chokmah cannot be seen as a created being or entity because it is not something that has been brought into existence but rather something that has always been with God.

It is, in essence, a reflection of God's own wisdom and knowledge, not a separate or created entity.

Theological Implications:

This understanding of Chokmah as an eternal, uncreated attribute of YHVH is vital for a Trinitarian framework, where Wisdom is sometimes identified with the Logos (the Word), particularly in Christian theological interpretation.

Wisdom, as described in Proverbs, is seen as a reflection of God's mind in action, and later Christian writings (such as the prologue of the Gospel of John) draw parallels between the divine Logos (Word) and Chokmah.

The idea of Wisdom as uncreated and eternal also sets it apart from creatures or anything that has been made. It speaks to the eternal nature of God's wisdom, which is not a created or contingent reality but a part of God's immutable nature.

Wisdom’s Role in Creation:

Proverbs 8 further reinforces this by presenting Wisdom as the agent through which God created the world. The text reads, "When He established the heavens, I (Wisdom) was there" (Proverbs 8:27), indicating that Wisdom is both involved in the creation process and yet distinct from the created order.

Wisdom’s role is not that of a created being but that of an eternal, essential aspect of God’s will and action in the world.
Conclusion:

So in sum @ProDeo , Chokmah in Proverbs is not a created entity but an uncreated attribute of God, deeply woven into the very nature of the Creator. This aligns with the broader biblical theme that God's wisdom is inseparable from His essence and serves as a means by which He orders and governs the universe.

Thus, Proverbs presents Chokmah as both a reflection of God’s infinite wisdom and an essential, uncreated part of His eternal being.

Which would debunk JW's arguments if they should use Proverbs 8.

J.

 

[Scott Downey]

If Proverbs 8:22-31 were about Christ then Christ is created, that's not Trinity.

Reading "I" as Christ would mean -

Spr 8:22 “The LORD possessed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old.
Spr 8:23 Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth.
Spr 8:24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water.
Spr 8:25 Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth,

Hence "I" is Wisdom only.

I agree Christ is uncreated. You know the reformers believe that also.
They contributed their notes to the bible, and it is the first Protestant bible.

The 1599 Geneva Bible Notes - The Reformed Reader

The Reformed Reader is committed to the historic Baptist and Reformed faith. Learn and research Baptist history, doctrine, theology and biographies.

www.reformedreader.org

The greatest distinction of the Geneva Bible, however, is the extensive collection of marginal notes that it contains. Prominent Reformation leaders such as John Calvin, John Knox, Miles Coverdale, William Whittingham, Theodore Beza, and Anthony Gilby wrote the majority of these notes in order to explain and interpret the scriptures. The notes comprise nearly 300,000 words, or nearly one-third the length of the Bible itself, and they are justifiably considered the most complete source of Protestant religious thought available.

​

Owing to the marginal notes and the superior quality of the translation, the Geneva Bible became the most widely read and influential English Bible of the 16th and 17th centuries. It was continually printed from 1560 to 1644 in over 200 different editions. It was the Bible of choice for many of the greatest writers, thinkers, and historical figures of the Reformation era. William Shakespeare’s plays and the writings of John Milton and John Bunyan were clearly influenced by the Geneva Bible. Oliver Cromwell issued a pamphlet containing excerpts from the Geneva Bible to his troops during the English Civil War. When the Pilgrims set sail on the Mayflower they took with them exclusively the Geneva Bible.

​

The marginal notes of the Geneva Bible enraged the Catholic Church, since the notes deemed the act of confession to men – the Catholic Bishops – as unjustified by Holy Script. Man should confess to God only; man’s private life was man’s private life. The notes also infuriated King James, since they allowed disobedience to tyrannical kings. King James went so far as to make ownership of the Geneva Bible a felony. He then proceeded to make his own version of the Bible, but without the marginal notes that had so disturbed him. Consequently, during King James’s reign, and into the reign of Charles I, the Geneva Bible was gradually replaced by the King James Bible.

 

[Scott Downey]

footnote k, not setup as in created.

1. Proverbs 8:23 He declareth the eternity of the Son of God, which is meant by this word, wisdom, who was before all time, and ever present with the father.

22 The Lord hath possessed me in the beginning of his way: I was [j]before his works of old.

23 [k]I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, and before the earth.

24 When there were no depths, was I begotten, when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25 Before the mountains were settled: and before the hills, was I begotten.

26 He had not yet made the earth, nor the open places, nor the height of the dust in the world.

27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there, when he set the compass upon the deep:

 

[Scott Downey]

'I was setup' is a phrase in Hebrew, and there is no indication of being created in the meaning

H5258 - nāsaḵ - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (kjv)

H5258 - נָסַךְ nâçak, naw-sak'; a primitive root; to pour out, especially a libation, or to cast (metal); by analogy, to anoint a king:—cover, melt, offer, (cause to) pour (out), set (up).

www.blueletterbible.org

נָסַךְ

Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to pour out, pour, offer, cast
   1. (Qal)
      1. to pour out
      2. to cast metal images
      3. to anoint (a king)
   2. (Niphal) to be anointed
   3. (Piel) to pour out (as a libation)
   4. (Hiphil) to pour out libations
   5. (Hophal) to be poured out
2. to set, install
   1. (Qal) to install
   2. (Niphal) to be installed

 

[Johann]

Num 13:33 And there we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim), and we seemed to ourselves like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them.”

You are sharp.

The Nephilim are mentioned in Genesis 6:4 before the flood:

"The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown."

The passage connects the Nephilim to the "sons of God" and the "daughters of humans," often interpreted as a reference to fallen angels or divine beings mating with human women, though this interpretation is debated.

2. The Flood:
In Genesis 6:7, God decides to destroy all living creatures (except Noah, his family, and the animals they took into the ark) due to humanity's corruption.

"So the LORD said, 'I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds, and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.'"

The flood essentially wipes out all life, except for Noah and those on the ark, and the animals they preserved.

3. Post-Flood Reference to Nephilim:
After the flood, Genesis 6:4 includes the phrase "and also afterward" regarding the Nephilim, which suggests that the Nephilim existed at some point after the flood.

However, there is no direct mention of them in subsequent texts. This leaves some room for interpretation regarding whether the Nephilim truly reappeared after the flood or if this phrase is meant to imply a continuing legacy or a metaphorical reference.

4. The Nephilim in the Post-Flood Era:

The Nephilim are mentioned again in Numbers 13:33, where the Israelite spies describe seeing giants in the land of Canaan:
"We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them."

The spies are likely referring to the descendants of the Nephilim or a similar group of giants in the land. Some believe that this reference connects back to the pre-flood Nephilim, though the text does not explicitly say that these are the same Nephilim, only that they were perceived as giants.

5. Interpretation and Considerations:
The idea that the Nephilim were entirely wiped out in the flood is based on the notion that all human beings and creatures with the breath of life perished, which is true according to the Genesis account.

However, the ambiguity in Genesis 6:4 ("and also afterward") and the reference in Numbers 13:33 suggests that either:

The Nephilim (or giants) could have reappeared after the flood through different means, possibly through human genealogies or other beings, or

The term Nephilim might be used more broadly to refer to giants or mighty beings in later generations, even if they were not the same individuals as those before the flood.

The absence of direct references to the "true Nephilim" after the flood could be due to the generic term used later, or it could reflect the fading of the concept of the Nephilim into legend or metaphor, with the later giants being understood as a separate group.

But JW' always go to paradoxical verses.

J.

 

[Johann]

'I was setup' is a phrase in Hebrew, and there is no indication of being created in the meaning

H5258 - nāsaḵ - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (kjv)

H5258 - נָסַךְ nâçak, naw-sak'; a primitive root; to pour out, especially a libation, or to cast (metal); by analogy, to anoint a king:—cover, melt, offer, (cause to) pour (out), set (up).

www.blueletterbible.org

נָסַךְ

Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to pour out, pour, offer, cast
   1. (Qal)
      1. to pour out
      2. to cast metal images
      3. to anoint (a king)
   2. (Niphal) to be anointed
   3. (Piel) to pour out (as a libation)
   4. (Hiphil) to pour out libations
   5. (Hophal) to be poured out
2. to set, install
   1. (Qal) to install
   2. (Niphal) to be installed

Correct-an attribute of God cannot be created.

J.

 

[Scott Downey]

If Proverbs 8:22-31 were about Christ then Christ is created, that's not Trinity.

Reading "I" as Christ would mean -

Spr 8:22 “The LORD possessed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old.
Spr 8:23 Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth.
Spr 8:24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water.
Spr 8:25 Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth,

Hence "I" is Wisdom only.

Compare v24, v25 to v42
John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.

I suppose it is all how a person reads a sentence. I don't read it as created, and neither did the protestant reformers.

It does not need to be a serious matter what someone thinks of Proverbs 8, as many other verses attest to Christ's eternal, everlasting nature.

 

[Johann]

Compare v24, v25 to v42
John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.

I suppose it is all how a person reads a sentence. I don't read it as created, and neither did the protestant reformers.

It does not need to be a serious matter what someone thinks of Proverbs 8, as many other verses attest to Christ's eternal, everlasting nature.

I agree with you, @Scott Downey, but there is significant opposition to anything associated with "Protestant Reformed" theology.

J.

 

[David in NJ]

Elohim is word unknown to the apostles. It is the Rabbinic dialect and not the Aramaic dialect used in the New Testament.

Elohim is word unknown to the apostles.

Why would you even think this?

The apostles were Jewish and certainly knew and spoke their ethnic Hebrew language.

It was precisely this God given Hebrew language AND the Holy Spirit by which the Apostle John knew what and why he wrote.

 

[David in NJ]

I agree with you, @Scott Downey, but there is significant opposition to anything associated with "Protestant Reformed" theology.

J.

RCC and jw = BFF

 

[David in NJ]

You asked me, a Catholic, some questions, but before I answered, you told me that you don't place any importance or value on what Catholics say, and that showed me you're the type of person to talk at Catholics, if you engage with them at all, rather than with Catholics, and therefore I didn't respond to them. Then, you asked me to answer your questions again, so I quoted your own words back to you, and now you're asserting that I'm using them as an excuse. Why would or should I engage with you when by your own admission it'd be a one-sided conversation?

i was raised RCC, baptism, schooling, confirmation all the way to the age of 22

At 23 i was called out by the FATHER unto our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and then Baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Filled UP on reading and praying the Gospel and the Apostles writings along with Genesis and all the OT writings.

How much of Scripture have you read = on your own?

 

[RedFan]

It was precisely this God given Hebrew language AND the Holy Spirit by which the Apostle John knew what and why he wrote.

I'm not understanding you. What does John's knowledge of the Hebrew language have to do with what and why he wrote?

 

[David in NJ]

I'm not understanding you. What does John's knowledge of the Hebrew language have to do with what and why he wrote?

Before i answer your question, do you believe that God put together the Holy Scriptures?

In more precise wording, do you have complete confidence in God that, thru fallible men over thousands of years,
God was able to have His Truth penned down whereby it is trustworthy, accurate and complete for His intended purposes???

 

[Magdala]

Very good, you looked it up.

To be complete, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are un-created, always existed.

Impossible to understand, no analogy applies and yet true.

I'm not an anti-trinitarian.