Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[face2face]

I can give you hundreds of scriptures that prove that the Godhead is made up of three Gods of separate minds and presence. And as far as Yahweh being the only God in the Old Testament, He makes that very clear Himself….As well as scriptures that prove that the people of the Old Testament understood that to be true.

There isn't a verse in the Bible which contains the complex formula of the Trinity. The old chestnuts they bring out always leave out the Holy Spirit and of those they try and twist they will always need to deal with Sins flesh, what Christ became, firstborn, firstbegotten and so on.

F2F

 

[Bladerunner]

James 2:1

​

My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality.

Exodus 24:16
Now the glory of the Lord rested on Mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days. And on the seventh day He called to Moses out of the midst of the cloud.

Exodus 24:17
The sight of the glory of the Lord was like a consuming fire on the top of the mountain in the eyes of the children of Israel.

1 Samuel 2:2
“No one is holy like the Lord, For there is none besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God.

1 Corinthians 10

Old Testament Examples

1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

first of all the food from God was blessed, it was not spiritual and neither was the water...

 

[MonoBiblical]

first of all the food from God was blessed, it was not spiritual and neither was the water...

It was needed due to the Nephilim being influential on the earth in those days.

 

[Bladerunner]

Born-again is the circumcision of the heart and same as regeneration

ALL the OT saints who Believed the WORD of Elohim were Born-Again/Regenerated

Baptism in/of the Holy Spirit was not granted to the OT saints

Is not everyone that receives God's Grace baptized in the Holy Spirit......I think SO!

We are called by GOD where He changes our heart from stone to one of flesh. Justfication is where one is Baptized in the Holy Spirit with the New Covenant (Ezk 36:27-27) The "Calling" of God is the regeneration of the human soul from that of the first Adam to that of the last Adam.

 

[Bladerunner]

It was needed due to the Nephilim being influential on the earth in those days.

Those were the day in the wilderness and nothing is said about the Nephilim until they are going to cross the River Jordan.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I can

Really? I have my doubts since others of the RCC faith have also ignored my questions....you are not the first to offer excuses...

but you said that you consider yourself a careful student of God's Word who doesn't put any store by anything said by a Catholic, and thus your questions posed to me are out of feigned interest.

LOL Well, that’s your excuse anyway......but since I am not the only one reading your replies, perhaps you could provide the answers to the other readers here.....I’m sure that they would love to hear your scripturally sound responses....I see that you did not attempt to answer even one that wasn’t a repeat of what you have already said.

What did St Peter say....? We need to defend our faith.....not with personal attacks and insults but with reasoning from the scriptures....in a spirit of mildness.

Try to see the questions and answer them one at a time......it’s not difficult....

 

[Aunty Jane]

Those were the day in the wilderness and nothing is said about the Nephilim until they are going to cross the River Jordan.

There is no mention of the true Nephilim after the flood since all air breathing life perished.

Any mention of them after the flood was in relation to a race of very tall people called the sons of Anak....or the Anakim. (Deut 9:1-2)

 

[David in NJ]

Is not everyone that receives God's Grace baptized in the Holy Spirit......I think SO!

We are called by GOD where He changes our heart from stone to one of flesh. Justfication is where one is Baptized in the Holy Spirit with the New Covenant (Ezk 36:27-27) The "Calling" of God is the regeneration of the human soul from that of the first Adam to that of the last Adam.

Born-Again is separate from the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.

They can occur at the same time.

 

[Pierac]

The KEY to understanding this begins in Genesis and the Hebrew word for God.

In the beginning
בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית (bə·rê·šîṯ)
Preposition-b | Noun - feminine singular
Strong's Hebrew 7225: 1) first, beginning, best, chief 1a) beginning 1b) first 1c) chief 1d) choice part

God
אֱלֹהִ֑ים (’ĕ·lō·hîm)
Noun - masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 430: 1) (plural) 1a) rulers, judges 1b) divine ones 1c) angels 1d) gods 2) (plural intensive-singular meaning) 2a) god, goddess 2b) godlike one 2c) works or special possessions of God 2d) the (true) God 2e) God

The correct word for 'God' is Elohim, which is plural

Therefore the TRUTH of Elohim must be expressed as THEY are = THREE Who are One

The word for 'One' in the Shema is 'Echad' = another Hebrew word that denotes ONE in UNITY

As you quoted so it is TRUTH: "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness" = Spoken THREE times

SHALOM and Welcome to ChristianityBoardForum

Elohim has been a very confusing word for many people like you. The word elohim is used various ways in Scripture. It is not only used to describe the Almighty, but also individual pagan gods and even mighty human beings. Elohim may be translated as God, god, angels, judges, or even a human being who stands as God's representative or agent. For example, the sons of Heth address Abraham as "a mighty prince," the word for "mighty" being elohim (Genesis 23:6). Some translations have Abraham here being called "Prince of God." Take another instance. In Exodus 4, the Lord tells Moses that he "shall be as God" (elohim) to his brother Aaron. Moses will have God's words in his mouth, and will stand as God's representative before Aaron. Here is a case where an individual human is called elohim. Again in Exodus 7:1, the Lord says to Moses, "See, I make you God [elohim] to Pharaoh." No one dares to suggest that there is a plurality of persons within Moses because he is called elohim, that is, God's representative. The pagan god Dagon is also called elohim in the Hebrew Bible. The Philistines lamented that the God of Israel was harshly treating "Dagon our God [elohim]" (1 Sam. 5:7). Dagon was a single pagan deity. The same holds true for the single pagan god called Chemosh: “Do you not possess what Chemosh your god [elohim] gives you to possess?" (Jud. 11:24). The same for the single deity called Baal.


The Hebrew language has many examples of words which are plural but whose meaning is singular. In Genesis 23, Abraham's wife Sarah dies. The Hebrew text says, "the lives [plural] of Sarah were 127 years" (v. 1). Even the plural verb that accompanies the pronoun does not mean Sarah lived multiple lives. The Hebrews never taught reincarnation or plurality of personhood. Another example of this kind of anomaly in the Hebrew language is found in Genesis 43. After Joseph wept to see his brothers, we read that Joseph "washed his faces" (plural). This is another instance where in the Hebrew language the plural noun functions as a singular noun with a singular meaning, unless, of course, Joseph was a multi-faced human being! The same occurs in Genesis 16:8 where Hagar flees from "the faces" (plural) of her mistress Sarah. These are "anomalies" of the Hebrew language that are clearly understood by Hebrew scholars who rightly translate to a singular form in English.

The better explanation is that the Hebrews used a form of speech called "the plural of majesty." Put simply this means that someone whose position was warrant of dignity was spoken in this way as giving a sign of honor. The plural acted as a means of intensification:

Elohim must rather be explained as an intensive plural, denoting greatness and majesty.

Whenever the word elohim refers to the God of Israel the Septuagint uses the singular and not the plural. From Genesis 1:1 consistently right through, this holds true. The Hebrews who translated their own scriptures into Greek simply had no idea that their God could be more than one individual, or a multiple personal Being! This is true too when we come to the New Testament. The New Testament nowhere hints at a plurality in the meaning of elohim when it reproduces references to the One God as ho theos, the One God.

Glad to clear some of the confusion...

 

[Pierac]

The KEY to understanding this begins in Genesis and the Hebrew word for God.

In the beginning
בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית (bə·rê·šîṯ)
Preposition-b | Noun - feminine singular
Strong's Hebrew 7225: 1) first, beginning, best, chief 1a) beginning 1b) first 1c) chief 1d) choice part

God
אֱלֹהִ֑ים (’ĕ·lō·hîm)
Noun - masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 430: 1) (plural) 1a) rulers, judges 1b) divine ones 1c) angels 1d) gods 2) (plural intensive-singular meaning) 2a) god, goddess 2b) godlike one 2c) works or special possessions of God 2d) the (true) God 2e) God

The correct word for 'God' is Elohim, which is plural

Therefore the TRUTH of Elohim must be expressed as THEY are = THREE Who are One

The word for 'One' in the Shema is 'Echad' = another Hebrew word that denotes ONE in UNITY

As you quoted so it is TRUTH: "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness" = Spoken THREE times

SHALOM and Welcome to ChristianityBoardForum

Echad (one)

It is customary for some Binitarians and most evangelical Trinitarians (especially Messianics) to propose that the Hebrew word for one, the numeral one (echad), is really "compound one." This is a clever device which confuses logical thought. Echad occurs some 960 times in the Hebrew Bible, and it is the numeral "one." It is a numeral adjective when it modifies a noun. "One day," "one person," etc. Echad is the ordinary cardinal number, "one." Eleven in Hebrew is ten and one. Abraham "was only one," said Ezekiel 33:24 (NASU), "only one man" (NIV).

Just as the famous Armstrongian phrase "uniplural" does not appear in the Webster's (thus it represents the DIY grammatical venture on which Worldwide theology was done in respect to defining God), "compound one" as a definition of echad is also not recognized in standard texts describing the grammar of the Hebrew language. It is an invented grammatical category which confuses and divides.

The Hebrew word for one operates as does the word "one" in English. You can have one thing, one person. And of course the noun modified by echad may be collective, one family, one people, one flesh, as a single unit composed of two - Adam and Eve, in that case. But to say that "one" carries the meaning of "compound one" is misleading in the extreme. The basic meaning of echad given by the lexicons is "one single," even the indefinite article "a." Sometimes "the only one," or even "unique" is the proper translation of echad.

Suppose now we say that "one" implies more than one. We could prove our point like this: In the phrase "one tripod," is it not obvious that one really implies three? Does not one dozen mean that one is really 12? Or one million? Is one equivalent to a million? Does this not suggest the plurality of "one"? What about "one quartet" or "one duplex"? To carry this madness to an extreme, we could argue that in the phrase "one zebra," the word one really means "black and white."

What is happening here? We are being asked to believe that in the phrase "the Lord our God is one Lord," that "one" is "compound." That "Lord" is more than one Lord, perhaps two or perhaps three. We are being lured into a complete falsehood that "one" implies plurality. We are asked to believe this on the basis of a tiny fraction of the appearances of echad when it modifies a compound noun (the vast majority of the occurrences of echad when it does not modify a compound noun are left unmentioned). Even when "one" modifies a compound noun - one family, one cluster - the word "one" retains its meaning as "one single." There is no such thing as "compound one" as a definition of echad.

This procedure is to confuse the numeral adjective "one" with the noun it modifies. It is to "bleed" the meaning of a compound noun back into the numeral. This will take the unwary by surprise. Thus "one flesh" is supposed to mean that one can mean more than one. The point, obviously, is that "flesh" as a combination of Adam and Eve does have a collective, family sense. But one is still one: "one flesh and not two fleshes." "One cluster (singular) of grapes" does not in any way illustrate a plural meaning for the word "one." "Cluster" has indeed a collective, plural sense. But one is still one: "one cluster" and not "two clusters." Just imagine if at the check-out the clerk announces that your one dollar purchase is really "compound one." You could become bankrupt.

So then, Yahweh, the personal name of the One God, occurs some 6,800 times. In no case does it have a plural verb, or adjective. And never is a plural pronoun put in its place. Pronouns are most useful grammatical markers, since they tell us about the nouns they stand for. The very fact that the God who is Yahweh speaks of Himself as "I" and "Me" and is referred to as "You" (singular) and "He" and "Him" thousands upon thousands of times should convince all Bible readers of the singularity of God. The fact that God further speaks of Himself in every exclusive fashion known to language -"by myself," "all alone" etc., - only adds to this proof. "There is none besides Me," "none before Me" and "none after Me." "I alone am Elohim, and Yahweh." "I created the heavens and the earth by Myself; none was with Me."


A Sample of the Use of echad (one)

Genesis 42:13: "Joseph's brothers said, 'We are 12 brothers, sons of one (echad) man, in the land of Canaan. The youngest is this day with our father and one (echad) is not.'" Verse 16: "Send one (echad) of you." Verse 19: "Let one (echad) of your brothers." Verse 27: "One (echad) of them opened his sack." Verse 32: "One (echad) is not." Verse 33: "One (echad) of your brothers." There are well over 900 other examples in the OT.

Hope this helps....

 

[David in NJ]

Elohim has been a very confusing word for many people like you.

Good Evening my Friend,

BIG THANK YOU for the comment: "Elohim has been a very confusing word for many people like you."

BEST lol so far Today!!!

FYI - i am not confused because my FATHER in Heaven is not the author of confusion.

Question - is this what you believe??? = "the Word was a god"

 

[David in NJ]

There isn't a verse in the Bible which contains the complex formula of the Trinity. The old chestnuts they bring out always leave out the Holy Spirit and of those they try and twist they will always need to deal with Sins flesh, what Christ became, firstborn, firstbegotten and so on.

F2F

The FATHER and WORD include the HOLY SPIRIT

1- In the beginning Elohim/Plural created the heavens and the earth.

2 - Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep.
And the Spirit of Elohim was hovering over the surface of the waters.

3 - And Elohim Said/Word, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

AMAZING = ALL 3 Elohim as ECHAD in the first 3 verses of the Holy Scriptures = AMAZING!!!

 

[David in NJ]

Elohim has been a very confusing word for many people like you. The word elohim is used various ways in Scripture. It is not only used to describe the Almighty, but also individual pagan gods and even mighty human beings. Elohim may be translated as God, god, angels, judges, or even a human being who stands as God's representative or agent. For example, the sons of Heth address Abraham as "a mighty prince," the word for "mighty" being elohim (Genesis 23:6). Some translations have Abraham here being called "Prince of God." Take another instance. In Exodus 4, the Lord tells Moses that he "shall be as God" (elohim) to his brother Aaron. Moses will have God's words in his mouth, and will stand as God's representative before Aaron. Here is a case where an individual human is called elohim. Again in Exodus 7:1, the Lord says to Moses, "See, I make you God [elohim] to Pharaoh." No one dares to suggest that there is a plurality of persons within Moses because he is called elohim, that is, God's representative. The pagan god Dagon is also called elohim in the Hebrew Bible. The Philistines lamented that the God of Israel was harshly treating "Dagon our God [elohim]" (1 Sam. 5:7). Dagon was a single pagan deity. The same holds true for the single pagan god called Chemosh: “Do you not possess what Chemosh your god [elohim] gives you to possess?" (Jud. 11:24). The same for the single deity called Baal.


The Hebrew language has many examples of words which are plural but whose meaning is singular. In Genesis 23, Abraham's wife Sarah dies. The Hebrew text says, "the lives [plural] of Sarah were 127 years" (v. 1). Even the plural verb that accompanies the pronoun does not mean Sarah lived multiple lives. The Hebrews never taught reincarnation or plurality of personhood. Another example of this kind of anomaly in the Hebrew language is found in Genesis 43. After Joseph wept to see his brothers, we read that Joseph "washed his faces" (plural). This is another instance where in the Hebrew language the plural noun functions as a singular noun with a singular meaning, unless, of course, Joseph was a multi-faced human being! The same occurs in Genesis 16:8 where Hagar flees from "the faces" (plural) of her mistress Sarah. These are "anomalies" of the Hebrew language that are clearly understood by Hebrew scholars who rightly translate to a singular form in English.

The better explanation is that the Hebrews used a form of speech called "the plural of majesty." Put simply this means that someone whose position was warrant of dignity was spoken in this way as giving a sign of honor. The plural acted as a means of intensification:

Elohim must rather be explained as an intensive plural, denoting greatness and majesty.

Whenever the word elohim refers to the God of Israel the Septuagint uses the singular and not the plural. From Genesis 1:1 consistently right through, this holds true. The Hebrews who translated their own scriptures into Greek simply had no idea that their God could be more than one individual, or a multiple personal Being! This is true too when we come to the New Testament. The New Testament nowhere hints at a plurality in the meaning of elohim when it reproduces references to the One God as ho theos, the One God.

Glad to clear some of the confusion...

@Pierac - where did you run off to???

Question - is this what you believe??? = "the Word was a god"

 

[David in NJ]

@Pierac
Does it take you 24 hours to answer a simple question???

Good Night

 

[Magdala]

There are.

I can address them if you decide to re-engage in our discussion by addressing the rest of post #510, which you've been prompted twice to do and haven't. You responded to the first prompt by misusing an idiom, and the second prompt by ignoring it completely, hence why I said, "Your bow out is duly noted".

 

[Magdala]

Re-posted. See post #666.

 

[Magdala]

LOL Well, that’s your excuse anyway......

You asked me questions, a Catholic, but before I answered, you told me that you don't place any importance or value on what Catholics say, and that showed me you're the type of person to talk at Catholics, if you engage with them at all, rather than with Catholics, and therefore I didn't respond to them. Then, you asked me to answer your questions again, so I quoted your own words back to you, and now you're asserting that I'm using them as an excuse. Why would or should I engage with you when by your own admission it'd be a one-sided conversation?

 

[Aunty Jane]

You asked me, a Catholic, some questions, but before I answered, you told me that you don't place any importance or value on what Catholics say, and that showed me you're the type of person to talk at Catholics, if you engage with them at all, rather than with Catholics, and therefore I didn't respond to them. Then, you asked me to answer your questions again, so I quoted your own words back to you, and now you're asserting that I'm using them as an excuse. Why would or should I engage with you when by your own admission it'd be a one-sided conversation?

I see that you spend a lot of time in self-justification, when the time could be better spent on a public forum just answering the questions put to you in a straightforward manner....I am not the only reader here....why deny the public your Scriptural insights? It could benefit others if you are correct......no?

The only reason not to answer is because you cannot......and I understand why....so for the benefit of others....can you prove me wrong?

 

[Magdala]

The only reason not to answer is because you cannot......and I understand why....so for the benefit of others....can you prove me wrong?

I have already proved you wrong in post #577.

 

[MonoBiblical]

The KEY to understanding this begins in Genesis and the Hebrew word for God.

In the beginning
בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית (bə·rê·šîṯ)
Preposition-b | Noun - feminine singular
Strong's Hebrew 7225: 1) first, beginning, best, chief 1a) beginning 1b) first 1c) chief 1d) choice part

God
אֱלֹהִ֑ים (’ĕ·lō·hîm)
Noun - masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 430: 1) (plural) 1a) rulers, judges 1b) divine ones 1c) angels 1d) gods 2) (plural intensive-singular meaning) 2a) god, goddess 2b) godlike one 2c) works or special possessions of God 2d) the (true) God 2e) God

The correct word for 'God' is Elohim, which is plural

Therefore the TRUTH of Elohim must be expressed as THEY are = THREE Who are One

The word for 'One' in the Shema is 'Echad' = another Hebrew word that denotes ONE in UNITY

As you quoted so it is TRUTH: "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness" = Spoken THREE times

SHALOM and Welcome to ChristianityBoardForum

Elohim is word unknown to the apostles. It is the Rabbinic dialect and not the Aramaic dialect used in the New Testament.