Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[Bladerunner]

Romans 5:5
Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

1 Corinthians 2:12
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

2 Corinthians 1:22
who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Ephesians 4:7

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But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.

1 John 3:24

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Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

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John 4
9 Then the woman of Samaria said to Him, “How is it that You, being a Jew, ask a drink from me, a Samaritan woman?” For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.

10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”

11 The woman said to Him, “Sir, You have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. Where then do You get that living water?

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32 The Pharisees heard the crowd murmuring these things concerning Him, and the Pharisees and the chief priests sent officers to take Him. 33 Then Jesus said [f]to them, “I shall be with you a little while longer, and then I go to Him who sent Me. 34 You will seek Me and not find Me, and where I am you cannot come.”

35 Then the Jews said among themselves, “Where does He intend to go that we shall not find Him? Does He intend to go to the Dispersion among the Greeks and teach the Greeks? 36 What is this thing that He said, ‘You will seek Me and not find Me, and where I am you cannot come’?”

The Promise of the Holy Spirit​

37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.

38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.”

39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those [g]believing in Him would receive; for the [h]Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Who Is He?​

40 Therefore [i]many from the crowd, when they heard this saying, said, “Truly this is the Prophet.” 41 Others said, “This is the Christ.”

But some said, “Will the Christ come o

No, Christ was the seed of the Woman.

 

[Scott Downey]

James 2:1

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My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality.

Exodus 24:16
Now the glory of the Lord rested on Mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days. And on the seventh day He called to Moses out of the midst of the cloud.

Exodus 24:17
The sight of the glory of the Lord was like a consuming fire on the top of the mountain in the eyes of the children of Israel.

1 Samuel 2:2
“No one is holy like the Lord, For there is none besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God.

1 Corinthians 10

Old Testament Examples

1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

 

[Scott Downey]

No, Christ was the seed of the Woman.

Reading something into the scripture?
I added nothing, those are the verses as written

 

[Scott Downey]

What does "incarnate" mean? How was Jesus God incarnate? | GotQuestions.org

What does 'incarnate' mean? How was Jesus God incarnate? How can deity and humanity be merged in one person?

www.gotquestions.org

The Bible also teaches the Incarnation—Jesus became fully human by taking on human flesh. Jesus was conceived in the womb and was born (Luke 2:7), He experienced normal aging (Luke 2:40), He had natural physical needs (John 19:28) and human emotions (Matthew 26:38), He learned (Luke 2:52), He died a physical death (Luke 23:46), and He was resurrected with a physical body (Luke 24:39). Jesus was human in every way except for sin; He lived a completely sinless life (Hebrews 4:15).

When Christ took on the form of a human, His nature did not change, but His position did. Jesus, in His original nature of God in spirit form, humbled Himself by laying aside His glory and privileges (Philippians 2:6–8). God can never stop being God because He is immutable (Hebrews 13:8) and infinite (Revelation 1:8). If Jesus stopped being fully God for even a split second, all life would die (see Acts 17:28). The doctrine of the Incarnation says that Jesus, while remaining fully God, became fully man.

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Colossians 1

9 For this reason we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy; 12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and [c]conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption [d]through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or [e]principalities or [f]powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

 

[Magdala]

“Us” and “our” does not mean 3 or 3 in 1.

I didn't say that the words "us" and "our" mean three or three-in-one, but rather drawing your attention to them because the word "us" is a first-person plural personal pronoun, and "our" is a first-person plural possessive pronoun. How do you reconcile the one God having used pronouns in the first-person plural?

None of this says the nature of God is a trinity or having to believe it a requirement of salvation.

I was addressing your following statement that the Holy Trinity isn't in Scripture. To reiterate, the term "Holy Trinity" refers to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and They are in Scripture: "Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit [...]" (Matt. 28:19)

 

[Wrangler]

I didn't say that the words "us" and "our" mean three or three-in-one.

LOL. You invoked it to support and defend the trinity.

What's your belief as a non-trinitarian, and how do you reconcile it with God having used pronouns in the first-person plural?

From the time of Moses to Jesus is about 1700 years. This Jewish text was NEVER taken as evidence of a tri-une God until the 4th century, when trinitarians came to power in the Roman Empire, engaging here in revisionist history of the meaning of the verse.

Doing so is one of many examples of extreme eisegesis because there is no trinity in the Bible. God is referred to about 5,000 times using a singular first person pronoun, starting in v 4 or 5, depending on the translation, and most importantly in the 1st Commandment. GE 1:26 is dicta. EX 20:3 is a Commandment. We should follow the commandment and not read into dicta.

Why do you disregard these 5,000 times God is referred to using a singular pronoun? So, it is irrational to ignore the basic tenet of our knowledge of God based on this one vague verse, where you have to speculate who he is talking to.

I addressed your following statement: "[...] the trinity is not in the Bible". To reiterate, the term Holy Trinity refers to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and they are in Scripture: "Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit [...]" (Matt. 28:19)

Appeal to Strawman. The trinity does not merely "refer to" 2 people and an attribute of one of these people.

Semantics. Rejecting the trinity as valid doctrine from Scripture is not the use of the term but the concept that obviously violates the 1st Commandment, the Sh'ma, words of God, words of Jesus and many other prophets. You shall have no other god before me, necessarily includes the trinitarian god.

Jesus taught us to pray to his father who is also our father, not to a trinitarian god. And he said his God, his father, is the only true God. That's good enough for me. Why is it not good enough for you?

 

[David in NJ]

the bible teaches being reborn again is the same a justification/salvation..thus the Holy Spirit is immediate...If you are speaking of being regenerated, receiving a heart of Flesh in place of the heart of stone; one can receive the Holy Spirit and Justification from the beginning of the regeneration or anywhere in between this date and death.

the bible teaches being reborn again is the same a justification/salvation..thus the Holy Spirit is immediate

YES, In the New Birth process

Being Born Again is the FIRST STEP towards being Baptised in the Holy Spirit but which can occur simutaneously and yet for others(myself) the Baptism of HS comes later.

There are specific reasons for this.

 

[David in NJ]

the bible teaches being reborn again is the same a justification/salvation..thus the Holy Spirit is immediate...If you are speaking of being regenerated, receiving a heart of Flesh in place of the heart of stone; one can receive the Holy Spirit and Justification from the beginning of the regeneration or anywhere in between this date and death.

Born-again is the circumcision of the heart and same as regeneration

ALL the OT saints who Believed the WORD of Elohim were Born-Again/Regenerated

Baptism in/of the Holy Spirit was not granted to the OT saints

 

[ProDeo]

OT - God created.
NT - Jesus created

Mind blowing.

Contradictory?

Can't be since Scripture can't be broken.

 

[Magdala]

LOL. You invoked it to support and defend the trinity.

Refer back to post #505 for why I cited Gen. 1:26.

From the time of Moses to Jesus is about 1700 years. This Jewish text was NEVER taken as evidence of a tri-une God until the 4th century, when trinitarians came to power in the Roman Empire, engaging here in revisionist history of the meaning of the verse.

Doing so is one of many examples of extreme eisegesis because there is no trinity in the Bible. God is referred to about 5,000 times using a singular first person pronoun, starting in v 4 or 5, depending on the translation, and most importantly in the 1st Commandment. GE 1:26 is dicta. EX 20:3 is a Commandment. We should follow the commandment and not read into dicta.

Why do you disregard these 5,000 times God is referred to using a singular pronoun? So, it is irrational to ignore the basic tenet of our knowledge of God based on this one vague verse, where you have to speculate who he is talking to.

We agree that there's one single God. How do you reconcile the one God having spoken in the first-person plural in Gen. 1:26?

Appeal to Strawman. The trinity does not merely "refer to" 2 people and an attribute of one of these people.

Semantics. Rejecting the trinity as valid doctrine from Scripture is not the use of the term but the concept that obviously violates the 1st Commandment, the Sh'ma, words of God, words of Jesus and many other prophets. You shall have no other god before me, necessarily includes the trinitarian god.

Jesus taught us to pray to his father who is also our father, not to a trinitarian god. And he said his God, his father, is the only true God. That's good enough for me. Why is it not good enough for you?

The term "Holy Trinity" refers to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and They are in Scripture: "Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit [...]" (Matt. 28:19), and therefore your statement that the Holy Trinity isn't in Scripture is false. It seems that you meant to word your statement as "My understanding of the concept of the Holy Trinity being three separate gods isn't in Scripture", and that would've been true, because the Holy Trinity isn't three separate gods. Refer back to post #480 for a brief explanation of the Holy Trinity.

 

[Wrangler]

Refer back to post 505 for why I cited Gen. 1:26.

You're just doing laps on ground already covered. Re-read my response to post 505, etc.

 

[Magdala]

You're just doing laps on ground already covered. Re-read my response to post 505, etc.

I only had to read your response once, and because it showed that you didn't understand why I cited Gen. 1:26, I referred you back to my explanation in post #505. Additionally, do you have any responses to the rest of post #510?

 

[Wrangler]

because your response showed that you didn't understand why I cited Gen. 1:26, I referred you back to my explanation in post 505.

I did understand why you cited GE 1:26. Believe it or not, you are not the first to cite that as a poor attempt to justify the Trinity to me.

Additionally, any response to the rest of post 510?

Yes. See my previous responses since you are doing laps on ground already covered, e.g., #506.

 

[Aunty Jane]

OT - God created.
NT - Jesus created

OT - God created in company with his “master workman”. (Prov 8:30-32)

NT - God created “through” his master workman. (John 1:2-3; Col 1:15-17)

Mind blowing.

Clearly stated and logical. Mind blowing only to those who can’t get past the trinity to see the simple truth.
“All things” were created by the one God created first. His “firstborn” and “only begotten” son.

Contradictory?

Contradictory only if you believe in the trinity. Scripture never contradicts Scripture.

Can't be since Scripture can't be broken.

Exactly.....Scripture does not teach that God is three different “persons”.....who are all equals and therefore all hold the office and title of “God”. That is polytheism, which the true God YAHWEH, condemns. (Exodus 20:3)

 

[Magdala]

I did understand why you cited GE 1:26.

If that was true, then I wouldn't have had to refer you back to post #505.

 

[Wrangler]

If that was true, then I wouldn't have had to refer you back to post 505.

Laps on ground already covered.

 

[Magdala]

Laps on ground already covered.

Impossible.

 

[face2face]

I think you would do well to study the meaning of and learn the Understanding of “Relation-SHIPS”.

Me seeing eye to eye with You has never been on my radar.

Glory to God,
Taken

This is exactly my point! The complicated relationships in the Trinity, as commonly understood, are not taught anywhere in Scripture. Once you study the Truth of the Son of Man (@Johann as well), you will come to understand the subordinate relationship of Christ to His Father.

As usual if you need assistence dont be afraid to ask

F2F

 

[Wrangler]

Impossible

More laps.

 

[Magdala]

More laps.

Your bow out is duly noted.