End time prophecy

[Aunty Jane]

Untrue.

Matthew 24:3 Greek

3952 [e]
parousias
παρουσίας
coming
N-GFS

Of the numerous English bibles now in existence, all but one translate "parousia(s)" in Matthew 24:3 as "coming".

In addition, the definition of "parousia" encompasses both "coming" and "presence". They are mutually inclusive, not exclusive.

There cannot be a presence without a preceding coming.

"Strong's Concordance
parousia: a presence, a coming"

Strong uses "return" as a synonym for "coming" in Matthew 24:3.

"In the N. T. especially of the advent, i. e. the future, visible, return from heaven of Jesus, the Messiah, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God: Matthew 24:3;"

Your claim of an incorrect rendering is itself incorrect.

And your rebuttal is not in accord with the evidence presented.....”parousia” necessarily implies “coming” but a “presence” does not always include witnessing the “arrival”. This is what is lacking in the incorrect translation of the word, failing to highlight the fact that Jesus gave a “sign” to indicate his “presence”....something that was not visible, or a sign would not have been necessary.

Do you remember the way Jesus returned to his Father after his resurrection, that was witnessed only by his apostles?

Acts 1:9-11....
“After he had said these things, while they were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their sight. 10 And as they were gazing into the sky while he was on his way, suddenly two men in white garments stood beside them 11 and said: “Men of Galʹi·lee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was taken up from you into the sky will come in the same manner as you have seen him going into the sky.”

The same “manner” means that no one else saw him leave except his closest companions. He was to return the same way, only this time his disciples were told to look for the “sign of his presence”, which would be evident in very visible world events.....described in detail to occur within a specific period of time and followed by “the end of the age”. His “coming” as judge is a separate event, well after his “arrival”.

Christ’s “presence” followed his installation as “King”...something witnessed only in vision by Daniel some 500 years before Jesus was born as a human.

Daniel 7:13-14...
“I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed.”

This “authority” to rule as king of God’s Kingdom (Matt 28:18) included his first act in cleansing the heavens, and began with confining satan and his hordes to the vicinity of this earth, no longer allowed in heaven.

Rev 12:7-12 gives us the details of that action and it’s result for earth’s inhabitants.

“And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”

Are people left to wonder why the earth is again filled with violence and immorality, such as what was achieved by demonic interference in Noah’s day? Didn’t Jesus tell us this would be the case at the time of his return? (Matt 24:37-39) The devil’s “short period of time” is almost up.....

And here we are.....not waiting for Christ’s return....because the “sign” Jesus gave to show his “presence” as King, has seen fulfilment since the First World War of 1914.

The “time of the end” foretold by Daniel, (Dan 12:4, 9-10) is about to experience is prophetic conclusion.....we are now waiting for the inevitable judgment that will see the faithful “sheep” who have lived as Christ commanded without compromise, granted everlasting life......whilst the “goats”, who are disobedient and disloyal to the Master they claim to serve.....perish. (Matt 7:21-23)

Jesus doesn’t call them “sheep and pigs”.....”sheep and goats” are both clean animals under God’s law and were used for food as well as in sacrifice....so in separating these two, Jesus indicates that both would be claiming to be clean in God’s eyes. But the “goats” display a different personality.

According to the experts....”Goats tend to be inquisitive and will oftentimes stray from their herd to investigate new things out of curiosity. Sheep prefer to stay in their herd.”

Curiosity will often get people into trouble as we see in the Scriptures, those who do not walk the straight and narrow road, will be persuaded to walk on the only other path there is. (Matt 7:13-14) Christendom is filled with a multitude of different denominations all claiming to worship the same God, but failing to be one flock.....Jesus’ sheep all belong to one flock...with one shepherd, one faith...and one baptism. There are no divisions among them. (1 Cor 1:10) They are a hated minority, just as they were in the first century. (John 15:18-21) and history is repeating because the devil knows what works with sinful human “goats” who naturally stray from their herd to investigate things more to their liking.

This is the story that the Bible tells....not the misinformed version taught in the multitude of Christendom’s churches.

 

[covenantee]

And your rebuttal is not in accord with the evidence presented.....”parousia” necessarily implies “coming” but a “presence” does not always include witnessing the “arrival”. This is what is lacking in the incorrect translation of the word, failing to highlight the fact that Jesus gave a “sign” to indicate his “presence”....something that was not visible, or a sign would not have been necessary.

Do you remember the way Jesus returned to his Father after his resurrection, that was witnessed only by his apostles?

Acts 1:9-11....
“After he had said these things, while they were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their sight. 10 And as they were gazing into the sky while he was on his way, suddenly two men in white garments stood beside them 11 and said: “Men of Galʹi·lee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was taken up from you into the sky will come in the same manner as you have seen him going into the sky.”

The same “manner” means that no one else saw him leave except his closest companions. He was to return the same way, only this time his disciples were told to look for the “sign of his presence”, which would be evident in very visible world events.....described in detail to occur within a specific period of time and followed by “the end of the age”. His “coming” as judge is a separate event, well after his “arrival”.

Christ’s “presence” followed his installation as “King”...something witnessed only in vision by Daniel some 500 years before Jesus was born as a human.

Daniel 7:13-14...
“I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed.”

This “authority” to rule as king of God’s Kingdom (Matt 28:18) included his first act in cleansing the heavens, and began with confining satan and his hordes to the vicinity of this earth, no longer allowed in heaven.

Rev 12:7-12 gives us the details of that action and it’s result for earth’s inhabitants.

“And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”

Are people left to wonder why the earth is again filled with violence and immorality, such as what was achieved by demonic interference in Noah’s day? Didn’t Jesus tell us this would be the case at the time of his return? (Matt 24:37-39) The devil’s “short period of time” is almost up.....

And here we are.....not waiting for Christ’s return....because the “sign” Jesus gave to show his “presence” as King, has seen fulfilment since the First World War of 1914.

The “time of the end” foretold by Daniel, (Dan 12:4, 9-10) is about to experience is prophetic conclusion.....we are now waiting for the inevitable judgment that will see the faithful “sheep” who have lived as Christ commanded without compromise, granted everlasting life......whilst the “goats”, who are disobedient and disloyal to the Master they claim to serve.....perish. (Matt 7:21-23)

Jesus doesn’t call them “sheep and pigs”.....”sheep and goats” are both clean animals under God’s law and were used for food as well as in sacrifice....so in separating these two, Jesus indicates that both would be claiming to be clean in God’s eyes. But the “goats” display a different personality.

According to the experts....”Goats tend to be inquisitive and will oftentimes stray from their herd to investigate new things out of curiosity. Sheep prefer to stay in their herd.”

Curiosity will often get people into trouble as we see in the Scriptures, those who do not walk the straight and narrow road, will be persuaded to walk on the only other path there is. (Matt 7:13-14) Christendom is filled with a multitude of different denominations all claiming to worship the same God, but failing to be one flock.....Jesus’ sheep all belong to one flock...with one shepherd, one faith...and one baptism. There are no divisions among them. (1 Cor 1:10) They are a hated minority, just as they were in the first century. (John 15:18-21) and history is repeating because the devil knows what works with sinful human “goats” who naturally stray from their herd to investigate things more to their liking.

This is the story that the Bible tells....not the misinformed version taught in the multitude of Christendom’s churches.

Matthew 24
24 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Why not first deal with the disciples' first question?

"Tell us, when shall these things be?"

That's an obvious reference to Jesus' preceding question, "See ye not all these things?", referring to the destruction of the temple.

Which occurred in 70 AD.

Jesus answers the disciples' first question first, describing conditions leading up to 70 AD in initial ensuing verses.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Matthew 24
24 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Why not first deal with the disciples' first question?

"Tell us, when shall these things be?"

That's an obvious reference to Jesus' preceding question, "See ye not all these things?", referring to the destruction of the temple.

Which occurred in 70 AD.

Jesus answers the disciples' first question first, describing conditions leading up to 70 AD in initial ensuing verses.

Read Matt 24:3 again...
“And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”

What did you miss?

They were clearly asking about Christ’s return, but they wanted to know when it would take place.
His return would mean “the end of the world”.....has Christ returned in accord with Christendom’s expectations......and has the “end of the world” happened yet? It certainly didn’t happen in 70 CE.
So Jesus’ reply clearly takes us beyond the events of 70 CE.

The literal Temple was destroyed, but the real Temple was in heaven, as will be the priesthood who will serve there. The literal Temple was never rebuilt because it had fulfilled its purpose.

1 Cor 3:16-17...
“Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.” (NASB)

Christ’s elect were now the spiritual Temple. This is what Jesus was referring to in John 2:18-22...

“The Jews then said to Him, “What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?” Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” The Jews then said, “It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” But He was speaking of the temple of His body. So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.” (NASB)

Jesus was not speaking about his literal body because he did not raise himself from the dead....his Father raised him. (Romans 10:9; Acts 3:13-15) His physical body had been sacrificed.

The “body of Christ” is now his elect....and his death and resurrection opened the way for them to also attain to a spiritual resurrection....this is why he is called “the firstborn from the dead” (Col 1:17-18) He was the first human to be raised as a spirit.....all other resurrections had been a restoration of their physical bodies, and returned to their families.
I believe you need to re-evaluate your position here....

 

[covenantee]

They were clearly asking about Christ’s return, but they wanted to know when it would take place.

They were clearly first asking about "these things", i.e. the buildings of the temple, and their stones which Jesus said "shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

And yes, they wanted to know when that destruction would take place.

Jesus did not ignore them. He didn't tell them to go for coffee.

He proceeded to clearly answer their first question, first.

You are overlooking the fact that there were three separate questions to be answered:

1. When shall these things be? (the destruction of the temple)
2. What shall be the sign of thy coming?
3. What shall be the sign of the end of the world?

Jesus answered them in order.

 

[Berean]

Untrue.

Matthew 24:3 Greek

3952 [e]
parousias
παρουσίας
coming
N-GFS

Of the numerous English bibles now in existence, all but one translate "parousia(s)" in Matthew 24:3 as "coming".

In addition, the definition of "parousia" encompasses both "coming" and "presence". They are mutually inclusive, not exclusive.

There cannot be a presence without a preceding coming.

"Strong's Concordance
parousia: a presence, a coming"
2. the presence of one coming..."

Strong uses "return" as a synonym for "coming" in Matthew 24:3.

"In the N. T. especially of the advent, i. e. the future, visible, return from heaven of Jesus, the Messiah, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God: Matthew 24:3;"

Your claim of an incorrect rendering is itself incorrect.

Hmmmm ... The Greek word translated “coming” is parousia. It really means “presence.” The following dictionaries (standard works in fundamentalist and evangelical bookstores) confirm this definition of presence.

W. E. Vine’ s EXPOSITORY DICTIONARY OF NEW TESTAMENT WORDS: “Parousia, literally, a presence, para, with, and ousia, being…denotes both an arrival and a consequent presence with.”

ROBERT YOUNG’ S ANALYTICAL CONCORDANCE TO THE BIBLE: “Parousia, a being alongside, presence.”

Moulton and Milligan’ s VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT, Foreword: “Parousia, as applied to the return of the Lord, is simply the anglicizing of the Greek word which literally means ‘presence.’"

Other Bible dictionaries and Greek lexicons also give “presence” as the primary definition of parousia:

THE EXPOSITORS GREEK TESTAMENT,
ARNDT AND GINGRICH,
NEW WESTMINSTER BIBLE DICTIONARY,
ROTHERHAM’ S THE EMPHASIZED BIBLE —APPENDIX,
LIDDELL AND SCOTT’ S GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON,
THAYER’ S GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, and
THE INTERNATIONAL STANDARD BIBLE ENCYCLOPEDIA.

Over fifty recognized authorities define parousia as “presence.”

 

[covenantee]

Hmmmm ... The Greek word translated “coming” is parousia. It really means “presence.” The following dictionaries (standard works in fundamentalist and evangelical bookstores) confirm this definition of presence.

W. E. Vine’ s EXPOSITORY DICTIONARY OF NEW TESTAMENT WORDS: “Parousia, literally, a presence, para, with, and ousia, being…denotes both an arrival and a consequent presence with.”

ROBERT YOUNG’ S ANALYTICAL CONCORDANCE TO THE BIBLE: “Parousia, a being alongside, presence.”

Moulton and Milligan’ s VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT, Foreword: “Parousia, as applied to the return of the Lord, is simply the anglicizing of the Greek word which literally means ‘presence.’"

Other Bible dictionaries and Greek lexicons also give “presence” as the primary definition of parousia:

THE EXPOSITORS GREEK TESTAMENT,
ARNDT AND GINGRICH,
NEW WESTMINSTER BIBLE DICTIONARY,
ROTHERHAM’ S THE EMPHASIZED BIBLE —APPENDIX,
LIDDELL AND SCOTT’ S GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON,
THAYER’ S GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, and
THE INTERNATIONAL STANDARD BIBLE ENCYCLOPEDIA.

Over fifty recognized authorities define parousia as “presence.”

Out of more than 50 English Bible translations,
one
translates it "presence".

 

[IndianaRob]

You can’t get any clearer than this. Everything mention in Matthew 24 happen at the crucifixtion and resurrection and a very small amount happened at 70AD. The second coming of Christ was the resurrection.

Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

You have to understand that the end of the world doesn’t mean the end of the planet it means the end of an age or civilization.

We are at the end of the world right now, the world is about to change and is in process of changing right before our eyes. The life we live right now is coming to an end and a new way of life is coming.

 

[Berean]

Out of more than 50 English Bible translations,
one
translates it "presence".

Really? Maybe you should do more research.

• And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?' - Young Literal Translation 1898
• Afterwards, when He was resting upon the Mount of the Olives, His disciples approached Him privately, asking, "Tell us when this will be; and what is the signal of Your presence, and the completion of this age?' - The Holy Bible in Modern English - Ferrar Fenton 1906
• And as he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives the disciples came unto him, privately saying - Tellus, when these things shall be, And what the sign of thy presence and the conclusion of the age. - Rotherham's Emphasized Bible 1872
• Sitting and of him upon the mountain of the olive tree, came to him the disciples privately saying: Tell to us, when these (things) shall be? and what the sign of thy presence and of the end of the age? - Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott 1864

These are just a few that I have hard copies of on my shelf, and they are still published and used today. You may not agree with them, they are all respected translators and theologians, who all believed in a personal "coming", but didn't let their biases get in the way of accurate translations.

 

[covenantee]

Really? Maybe you should do more research.

• And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?' - Young Literal Translation 1898
• Afterwards, when He was resting upon the Mount of the Olives, His disciples approached Him privately, asking, "Tell us when this will be; and what is the signal of Your presence, and the completion of this age?' - The Holy Bible in Modern English - Ferrar Fenton 1906
• And as he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives the disciples came unto him, privately saying - Tellus, when these things shall be, And what the sign of thy presence and the conclusion of the age. - Rotherham's Emphasized Bible 1872
• Sitting and of him upon the mountain of the olive tree, came to him the disciples privately saying: Tell to us, when these (things) shall be? and what the sign of thy presence and of the end of the age? - Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott 1864

These are just a few that I have hard copies of on my shelf, and they are still published and used today. You may not agree with them, they are all respected translators and theologians, who all believed in a personal "coming", but didn't let their biases get in the way of accurate translations.

Maybe you should understand plain English. This statement is unequivocally true:

Out of more than 50 English Bible translations,
one
translates it "presence".

 

[Berean]

Maybe you should understand plain English. This statement is unequivocally true:

Out of more than 50 English Bible translations,
one
translates it "presence".

I just quoted four translations (not counting the NWT) that render Matthew 24:3 as PRESENCE, how is your statement that there is only one "unequivocally true"?

 

[covenantee]

I just quoted four translations (not counting the NWT) that render Matthew 24:3 as PRESENCE, how is your statement that there is only one "unequivocally true"?

Because none of yours met the inclusion criteria to appear on the BibleGateway list.

And even if they had, they would still only constitute less than 15% of the total.

That's how.

 

[CTK]

Matthew 24:3 begins Jesus prophesy of the time of his return…..but how?

“As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” (NASB)

This is an incorrect rendering as Jesus was not speaking of his “coming” but of his “presence” (parousia).
If you are at a gathering and someone notices your presence, does it mean that they saw you arrive?

What is the significance of this translation error? It makes Jesus “coming” into what happens later….not what happens first, making two events into one. Christ’s “presence” takes place before he “comes” as judge of all the earth.

Jesus spoke of “the sign of his presence”…..and he gave a detailed description of definite world events that were to show that he was already “present” as King of God’s Kingdom. His use of this word continues in Matt 24:27, 37, 39.

The sign was unmistakable as these events were to occur in one specific time period.
What were they?
First, he said….
“….See to it that no one misleads you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for these must take place, but is not yet the end.“

False Messiahs were nothing new, but in this age, they would make headlines around the world for all the wrong reasons.
Wars are also nothing new in this world…..conflicts in various nations around the world have always been fought…but Jesus speaks of something greater….he said..

“For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom“….this is speaking of a warfare that encompassed many nations…..and we see that 1914 ushered in an age of war, the likes of which had never been seen in human history…..it was first called “The Great War” but later was renamed “The First World War” in the wake of a “Second World War“ which again, drew all nations into conflict.

The First World War occurred at a time when the prospects for peace had never been greater…..this Great War was precipitated by the assassination of Arch Duke Ferdinand in Sarajevo….an obscure act that saw the entire world drawn into a global massacre because of alliances that nations had signed off on. This assassination was called “the shot that was heard around the world” because of what it sparked…..the very first global war in man’s history. So the world entered its “last days” in 1914 and it has continued with more heinous warfare and weaponry ever since.

What else did Jesus say….?
“and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. But all these things are the beginning of birth pangs.“

So like labor pains on a pregnant woman, these signs begin suddenly and continue, sometimes for long periods until birth is finally achieved.
Just after the war was the outbreak of the Spanish Flu pandemic, which affected all nations and actually took more lives than the war did (mentioned by Luke)…..food shortages also plagued the nations as men were sent to fight, leaving the women at home to try and keep the food supplies going…much of which was sent to the troops, leaving civilians rationed for meager supplies.

“Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.”

True Christians would be hated because they refused to be “part of the world” in its bloody wars, its greedy commercialism, and its inept false religions, being a force for nothing good in the world, but just tagging along, supporting their governments in their indiscriminate slaughter. (James 4:4) At times even killing their own brothers of the same faith. (1 John 4:20-21)

“At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.”

From the end of the 19th century onward, there was what was called “the great awakening” where the churches of Christendom, long entrenched in people’s minds and weekly activities, began to fall from grace as a new age emerged among western nations in particular. Feminist movements sprang up as inequality among the sexes was challenged by strong minded women, no longer wanting to be chattels owned by their husbands and fathers. Traditional views were challenged and those seeking freedom of choice and freedom of speech, were met with opposition. False prophets were common as this new age began…..seeking to invite people to follow their own philosophies.
Science too was beginning to challenge long held views about creation, which also caused waves of opposition.

“Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold.”

Has this been seen to be ever increasing as the world has forgotten how to love their fellow man? Selfish focus on wealth and position and fame, have turned humans into selfish monsters. Violence and immorality dominate the world scene as Jesus said it would. (Matt 24:37-39)

Politics and a vast array of divisive elements separate people in their families, in their neighborhoods, in their own nations, and with nations against each other now threatening the very existence of all living things on this planet. Who can deny that “love” is not the dominant feature of life today…..it is murderous “hatred”.

“But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.“

What is it that we must endure if we are to be saved from an “END” that is sure to come?

We have to endure as Christ commanded, not as the churches of Christendom have compromised on their standards, wary of creating waves in their congregations because the pastor’s salary is dependent on money in the plate. Not a good reason to abandon Christ’s teachings, but understandable if it means losing the privileges that are expected in that profession.

And then there was this…..

”This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.”

Who were going to preach this “gospel of the kingdom” to the whole world during these last days, when Christendom’s churches could not even agree on what the Bible teaches among themselves?…..and they have no idea what the Kingdom of God is, so they offer excuses as to why they fail to carry out this command of the Master. (Matthew 28:19-20) It was not a recommendation….it was a direct command…..so what is the message that Christendom fails to make known to the people before “the end comes”?

For obvious reasons we do not see the churches out preaching as Jesus said…..

“And whatever city or village you enter, inquire who is worthy in it, and stay at his house until you leave . As you enter the house, give it your greeting. If the house is worthy, give it your peace. But if it is not worthy, take back your peace. Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.”

Its a search and rescue mission…..it’s both a duty and a responsibility to carry out this assignment because acceptance of the message is what a “sheep” does……refusal is what a “goat” does…..Jesus is present and has been for over 100 years, separating the “sheep from the goats”….soon he will manifest as judge, but by then it will be too late….Jesus’ “presence” and his “coming” are two separate events……we have been given ample time in between to show God who we are and where our loyalties lie.

Christ will be the judge…..and he will make no mistakes. Are we ready?

That was really good! I had not looked at "at this coming" as meaning "his presence" before. If I understand this, does this specifically mean that "His presence" refers to His sending of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost? And of course, His Holy Spirit will not depart from this earth until the end of times....

 

[Aunty Jane]

That was really good! I had not looked at "at this coming" as meaning "his presence" before. If I understand this, does this specifically mean that "His presence" refers to His sending of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost? And of course, His Holy Spirit will not depart from this earth until the end of times....

Christ’s “presence” was the time of his return….not his “coming” as judge and executioner with his angelic forces, so that “all will see him”……but in the same “manner” as he left….only his closest companions witnessed it. The world at large was unaware of the miracle of his ascension. This was 40 days after his miraculous resurrection. (Acts 1:3-11)

Christ’s “presence” was to be discerned by the “signs” that he gave. (Matt 24:3-14) Only at “the time of the end” would he be installed as King, an event seen by Daniel in vision, some 500 years before Christ’s human birth. (Daniel 7:13-14) Then he would take up his rulership “in the midst of his enemies” (Psalm 110:1-2)
So rather than being a time of peace, Christ’s return would be seen in chaotic times, until all his enemies were dispatched….then his 1000 year reign of peace was to bring us back everything that satan and the other rebels, took away from us in Eden.

After his resurrection, he was to wait “at God’s right hand” until all his “enemies were “placed as a stool for his feet”. In Scripture the earth is said to be God’s “footstool“, so all of Christ’s enemies would be on earth…including satan and his minions. Satan’s eviction from heaven would mean “joy“ for its residents, but “woe for the earth”, because the devil would have great anger, knowing that his time was short. (Rev 12:7-12)

The outpouring of the holy spirit at Pentecost was the giving of a token in advance of their choosing as “kings and priest” with Christ in his Kingdom. (Rev 20:6) This anointing revealed their heavenly calling (Heb 3:1) and would give them an earnest desire to be with their Lord in heaven, overriding the natural desire of all mankind to live forever on earth, where God put us in the first place….in a beautiful paradise. Death was never supposed to happen…..God already had provision for everlasting life on earth in the garden. Only after they sinned was access to this “tree of life“ denied. (Gen 3:22-24)

God never intended for humans to go to heaven, they were to “fill the earth” with their children and take care of all of God’s creation as he first purposed…forever. Christ’s sacrifice and his kingdom rulership were only put in place after the fall of man and the first angel in Eden.…others would sadly follow his lead both in heaven and on earth.

What has transpired since then is how God rescues his faithful ones and tests out the human race (and the angels) as they exercise their free will. God did not create his children as robots, but gives all his intelligent creatures free will so that they will serve him out of love and loyalty, rather than follow the devil by taking something that did not belong to them. Abuse of free will is at the base of every sin.

The angel who became satan the devil, stole the human race from God by lying to the woman and using her to tempt the man into disobedience. Once he had separated them from God, they would give him worship, mostly by default in the false religions he created to siphon off worship for himself. He is identified as “the god of this world” who can blind the minds of the unbelievers” (2 Cor 4:3-4) He cannot blind a true believer however.

 

[Timtofly]

Not all of Matthew 24 is about that, though. Tell me why only Luke would have recorded Jesus's answer to the disciples' question about the timing of the destruction of the temple buildings standing at that time. Why would Matthew and Mark not have also recorded His answer to that question?

Luke recorded what Jesus said at the Temple, not something private to His disciples. The disciples had not asked their question in Luke 21. They did ask in private in Mark and Matthew.

The church did not need to have an answer about 70AD, did they? They already fled in 66AD. The church is told about the Second Coming, and those events as a private answer. All would be fulfilled by the time the last generation would be alive, according to Luke. Even 70AD has been fulfilled and does not need to happen again. The last generation would see Matthew and Mark fulfilled as the entire answer.

I am curious why you have to force a Second Coming event into the first century. Why do you need to force a private answer given to the church, onto a public answer that would not even effect the church had they fled accordingly in 66AD?

Most of the historical church that you all adhere to, already understand those armies in Luke 21 referred to 66AD. Coventee seems to contradict his own early church historical position, just to prove this erroneous point about armies in 70AD.

Then you all totally disregard Josephus, who would have understood all that applied to the first century per an AoD, who never once pointed out an AoD in 70AD. Josephus said there was an AoD incident when Pilate became governor in regards to the Roman armies and their ensigns, and it was resolved. No one fled, and Jerusalem was not destroyed. Jesus had not even given the Olivet Discourse at that point.

So the first century Jews did know about this alleged argument you all try to force into Scripture, but are wrong about. Matthew and Mark would not apply to 70AD even though the disciples in private implied the temple being destroyed. Jesus answered according to God's plan and events, not human assumption. Jesus was not describing what He already covered at the Temple, but the events surrounding the Second Coming. No temple will be destroyed after the Second Coming, but there will be a Temple then.

Your whole denial of a temple built at the Second Coming is a bias of your Amil eschatology. So you have to corrupt the interpretation of Mark and Matthew and force it to say what Luke says. Mere Roman armies are not an AoD. If Titus had set up an AoD it would have happened. But it did not. All of Jerusalem was left desolate, not that some AoD was set up as understood by first century Jews.

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )"

Those reading years later and centuries later would need to understand. Not first century Jews. Jesus was referring to Daniel not Hanukkah. But Hanukkah was the fulfillment of Daniel. The Greeks dedicated the Temple to their gods, that is an AoD. Titus would have also, but could not. There was no AoD in 70AD. What Jesus referenced (Daniel) was fulfilled and remembered as Hanukkah. Daniel will not be fulfilled again, as it was already fulfilled. But what Jesus said will be a future event if it is fulfilled. That fulfillment will only be determined by God at the 7th Trumpet. It has not happened yet.

 

[Timtofly]

If you have historical evidence disproving what's been presented, then present yours.

Otherwise, try out your personal opinions on someone else.

You have not presented any historical evidence. You can do the same with your opinion - prove it.

You agreed that the church fled in 66AD. Can you prove they all returned in disobedience to the warning never to return?

 

[covenantee]

You have not presented any historical evidence. You can do the same with your opinion - prove it.

You agreed that the church fled in 66AD. Can you prove they all returned in disobedience to the warning never to return?

Tell Roman historians Tacitus, Suetonius, Josephus, et al that they have not presented any historical evidence.

Tell us what they say.

 

[Timtofly]

Tell Roman historians Tacitus, Suetonius, Josephus, et al that they have not presented any historical evidence.

Tell us what they say.

They already spoke. You just refuse to listen to their written words.

 

[covenantee]

They already spoke. You just refuse to listen to their written words.

Copy/paste their written words that I refuse to listen to.

The ones that you can't find.

Don't be slow.