Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

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GodsGrace

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What is weird?

Please explain?

I agree with the penned word.

What has that got to do with what I posted?

Show me where I’m going by Calvin’s word...you keep telling me that now show me please?

You have posted your opinion that I follow Calvin...where is your back up?

Then show me and discuss instead of throwing accusations around about other members.
.
What aren’t you understanding what I post?
I don't need back up RJ.
You believe as John Calvin believed.
You believe in the teachings of a MAN instead of the teachings of Jesus.
Reply to my last post and give some verses that teach HOW a person is saved and we'll take
it from there.

Everyone on this thread knows you're a Calvinist except you.
Interesting.
 
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Ritajanice

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Sure. I read you scripture and replied to it.

Did YOU read mine?
Am I getting a reply from you?

Post some verses that state HOW we become saved....
Thanks.
I’ve already posted scripture on how we are Born Again, did you understand them?

How did your spirit become Born Of God’s seed..you must have a testimony surely.

Or do you think the written word made your spirit Alive in Christ?
 

GodsGrace

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I asked you that question..I know Jesus existed.

How would you know he existed?

Are you going to explain to us how you became Born Again?
You could read all about it in the book I write.
But for now,,,,no. I'm not willing to give you such information.

You're not a friend of mine RJ.
We're here to discuss theology....
if you just want to babble,,,,I'm not available.
 

GodsGrace

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I’ve already posted scripture on how we are Born Again, did you understand them?

How did your spirit become Born Of God’s seed..you must have a testimony surely.

Or do you think the written word made your spirit Alive in Christ?
Post some verses on HOW a person becomes born again.

HOW a person becomes born again.
 

Ritajanice

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I don't need back up RJ.
You believe as John Calvin believed.
You believe in the teachings of a MAN instead of the teachings of Jesus.
Reply to my last post and give some verses that teach HOW a person is saved and we'll take
it from there.

Everyone on this thread knows you're a Calvinist except you.
Interesting.
I teach the word of God..already posted scripture on how we are Born Of God’s seed...I’m still waiting for your testimony on how you were Born Of God’s seed?

That ain’t John Calvin now is it?
 

Ritajanice

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Post some verses on HOW a person becomes born again.

HOW a person becomes born again.
I’ve already done that...every one can see the scripture that I posted on how one becomes Born Again...why aren’t you posting your testimony on how your spirit became Born Again?

We become Born Again by divine revelation..just as Gods word says, many times @GodsGrace ?
 

GodsGrace

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2 of 3


As you well, know, this is a continuation of Jesus's conversation with Nicodemus, and He has just said, "unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

So then comes John 3:16, where He says to Nicodemus (yes...), "whoever believes in him..." So let's look at that 'whoever.' It can be applied accurately in two ways, and both are correct:

1. All are eligible; there is no one excluded from eligibility of being born of the Spirit, and thus able to enter the kingdom of God... and thus saved

2. Those that do come to believe will be (and are) the ones whom God has called, which we can clearly see... yet again... from what Ezekiel says in Ezekiel 11:19-20 and Ezekiel 36:26-27...

"I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules"

...and from what Joel says in Joel 2:32...

"it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls"​

...and also from what Jesus Himself says in John 15:16...

"You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide"




That's the very question I'm asking you, GodsGrace. Actually, is God Almighty or are we? Is God Almighty and Sovereign or are we almighty and sovereign over Him? And as I put it before, does God's will depend on ours?


What I'm stating to you, GodsGrace... don't spin it... is that in stomping so fervently for our free will, your unmistakable implication ~ even though unintended ~ is that God's free will depends on ours, and really that our free will obligates His, even dictates His, thereby revoking it altogether.


Ah, but you just said, in this very post, that "Jesus said we DO save ourselves and become a part of God's elect..." That's a curious thing... And again, Jesus did say, "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide"...

And besides that, in Romans 9, Paul is specifically talking about God's purpose of election... not "our purpose of God's election" or even "our election of ourselves to God's elect"... and says, in succession:

1) "it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy,"
2) "(God) has mercy on whomever He wills,"

and

3) "the potter (has) right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use; God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles."

And this is right after he has said:

"And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified" (Romans 8:28-30).​

So, I certainly join with Paul and echo his words, that "If God is for us, who can be against us? ... Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? ... No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him Who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:37-39).


Very true, but... yet again... Jesus, in response to His disciples asking Him, "Who then can be saved?" said in reply, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible", "With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God", and "What is impossible with man is possible with God", (Matthew 19:26, Mark 10:27, and Luke 18:27, respectively). So that leaves us with three possibilities:

1. Paul was wrong in Acts 16:31​
2. Jesus was wrong in Matthew 19:26, Mark 10:27, and Luke 18:27​
3. Both were right.​

In case you're puzzled, GodsGrace, numbers 1 and 2 above are... not right... :)


LOL! Hey, GodsGrace, this jailer. Where is he from? Philippi, right? Yes, see Acts 16:12 and following:

"...from there to Philippi, which is a leading city of the district of Macedonia and a Roman colony. We remained in this city some days... As we were going to the place of prayer..."

And you remember, I'm sure... at least because I've told you about three times now, if not more... what Paul wrote to the Philippians, that they... and we, by extension... should... I seem to remember saying this a couple of times already... :) "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure..." (Philippians 2:13).

Yes, Paul said do it, right away. He certainly did. For sure. :)

Grace and peace to you.
When is your book coming out?
You sure do like to talk a lot and just keep repeating the same things.

Reply to my last post.

John 3:16 TEACHES us HOW a person is saved.
You can put a spin on it but here's what it says...AGAIN.

For God SO LOVED THE WORLD, that He gave His only begotten Son so that WHOEVER BELIEVES in Him, will not perish
but have eternal life.

GOD LOVES THE WORLD.
HE GAVE HIS ONLY SON.
WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL BE SAVED.

I can repeat too PS.
What you've posted DOES NOT explain John 3:16 to the satisfaction of anyone here that is not Calvinist in soteriology.

Explain this if you can:

Romans 5:1
THEREFORE having been JUSTIFIED by FAITH....

Romans 3:25
whom God displayed publicly as a PROPITIATION in His blood THROUGH FAITH,.

Romans 6:16
...When you PRESENT YOURSELVES to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one
WHOM YOU OBEY.

Now, please explain the above just as I explained approx 7 or 8 of your verses a few posts ago.
It would be greatly appreciated.

I'm sure the non-calvinists on this thread are waiting for you to explain how the above verses do not support FREE WILL.
And how they do not explain HOW one is saved.

Everyone else here believes they support FREE WILL
and explain HOW one is saved.

Thanks.
 

Ritajanice

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Jesus said this in John 3.

9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”

It’s ok to be confused. Nicodemus was also confused when jesus told him he must be born again, So he asked how this can be, how do we get born again.

Jesus gave him (and us) the answer

10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man [b]who is in heaven.14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should [c]not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

That is not how Jesus explains to Nicodemus how we are Born Of The Spirit...you left that part out.

We are not Born Again by looking to the cross and believing....believing what?

You can’t believe anything without God’s witness testifying Gods truth to our heart/ spirit.

Therefore you looking to the cross and begging God for forgiveness is not how our spirit is Born Again.

Our spirit is Born Again by the Spirit Of God...not by looking to the cross and believing..you can’t believe anything without the gift of Faith and being Born Of The Spirit.

Your post isn’t biblical on how we become Born Again of imperishable/ incorruptible seed.

Jesus points him to the OT, and a historical event which would be used as a teaching tool for us today.

1. The children of Israel were getting but by Snakes,, They were dead once they were bitten, there was no known cure, much like us, we are dead, no way for us to save ourselves. We must be saved by God

2. Moses was told by God to lift a serpent on a pole. Whoever looks will be saved, whoever does not, will continue to die, and eventually meet the fate they already had been sentenced to.

3. Only those who trusted God looked, those who did not, did not look, they may have believed God could save them? I do nto know. But they trusted more in themselves, and in denial kept on tryign to save themselves and failed.

Jesus used this to show nicodemus, who (an avid teacher of all of the OT) understood this story perfectly. So he would understand what Jesus said.

In the same way, jesus must be lifted up on a pole. That whoever believed in him will also not perish, but will live forever. Like the people of Israel. Whoever believed look, and were instantly saved, whoever did not. Were not saved, and eventually suffered their fate (Jesus called this fate condemnation)

Jesus said clearly, he was not sent to judge the world. But that the worl might be saved. Whoever believes (looks) is not only born again (saved from death) but they will live forever (eternal life) these people are no longer condemned, they are saved forever.

Whoever does not believe continue in that condemned state until they either repent and look, or suffer the physical death before they repent, in that case they will remain condemned, Be delivered to God for judgement, and suffer the second death. Many of these people will try to get out of it by trying to tell jesus of all their good works they did (I cast out devils, I did this and that and all these great works)

jesus will say depart from me, why? He never knew them, why? They practices lawlessnes (sin) why? They did not believe, and remained condemned in that state

Sadly @Ritajanice does not understand this passage, so if you ask her, you will not get an answer which lines up with what jesus said, she will give you the calvinist answer.

run away from that answer.

None of what you post here relates to being Born Of The Spirit.

You can’t look to the cross and believe it’s truth, unless one is Born Again of imperishable seed...who happens to be God’s Living Witness His Living Holy Spirit...now you run away from that divine revelation.
 

GodsGrace

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LOL! Well that would be quoted from Calvin's Institutes... Goodness gracious.


Well, you've clearly misunderstood what he said in that very passage you brought up, so maybe you should go through them again. :) But hey, you can use what you want, just... you know... use it well. And that applies regarding the Bible, too...


I think we can use a lot of things for support, GodsGrace, but none of it is ~ or takes the place of ~ inspired Scripture.


Because Calvin himself used the Scriptures extensively to support himself? LOL! And also used the Scriptures to refute Arminius? LOL! No, it's not "difficult" at all... Again, Calvin was a Reformer, and one of the chief tenets of the Reformation was Scripture Alone, Sola Scriptura, meaning having to do with the sufficiency of Scripture as our supreme authority in all spiritual matters, that all truth necessary for our salvation and spiritual life is taught either explicitly or implicitly in Scripture, that Scripture is the highest and supreme authority on any matter on which it speaks.


Rubbish.


And again, here is the text:

The expression of our Savior, “Many are called, but few are chosen,” (Mt. 22:14), is also very improperly interpreted (see Book 3, chap. 2, sec. 11, 12). There will be no ambiguity in it, if we attend to what our former remarks ought to have made clear—viz. that there are two species of calling: for there is an universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike, even those for whom he designs the call to be a savor of death, and the ground of a severer condemnation. Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts. Sometimes, however, he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness. Now, our Lord seeing that the gospel was published far and wide, was despised by multitudes, and justly valued by few, describes God under the character of a King, who, preparing a great feast, sends his servants all around to invite a great multitude, but can only obtain the presence of a very few, because almost all allege causes of excuse; at length, in consequence of their refusal, he is obliged to send his servants out into the highways to invite every one they meet. It is perfectly clear, that thus far the parable is to be understood of external calling. He afterwards adds, that God acts the part of a kind entertainer, who goes round his table and affably receives his guests; but still if he finds any one not adorned with the nuptial garment, he will by no means allow him to insult the festivity by his sordid dress. I admit that this branch of the parable is to be understood of those who, by a profession of faith, enter the Church, but are not at all invested with the sanctification of Christ. Such disgraces to his Church, such cankers God will not always tolerate, but will cast them forth as their turpitude deserves. Few, then, out of the great number of called are chosen; the calling, however, not being of that kind which enables believers to judge of their election. The former call is common to the wicked, the latter brings with it the spirit of regeneration, which is the earnest and seal of the future inheritance by which our hearts are sealed unto the day of the Lord (Eph. 1:13, 14). In one word, while hypocrites pretend to piety, just as if they were true worshipers of God, Christ declares that they will ultimately be ejected from the place which they improperly occupy, as it is said in the psalm, “Lord, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill? He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart,” (Psalm 15:1, 2). Again in another passage, “This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob,” (Psalm 24:6). And thus the Spirit exhorts believers to patience, and not to murmur because Ishmaelites are mingled with them in the Church since the mask will at length be torn off, and they will be ejected with disgrace.

...as if this is really necessary... LINK

I challenge you, GodsGrace, what, in what John Calvin writes there, gives you cause to say that per John Calvin himself says or even infers, that "it is impossible for a Calvinist to know for sure that God has chosen him until the end of his life."


Well, good. Me too. And I'm one of those nasty Calvinists. <chuckles>


Everyone is welcome to his opinion. :) You know hey that's free will... LOL!


Just because the Reformation began in the 1500s does not mean the understandings of Scripture championed during the Reformation were first propagated or somehow "began" then... :) We could say the same thing regarding Arminianism... :)


Hmm, well certainly not "all denominations," or even close to that. But, you know, like Paul said two millennia ago, "the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths..." He was right...


Ah, I wouldn't be so sure. But you know that's worth thinking about; we can talk about Christianity in that same context, somewhat. You know, we see article after article about how Christianity is dying and will soon be no more, how young people are leaving the church in droves... Well, I would say there are two things happening:

1.) God is growing His kingdom. New believers are coming to Christ daily, and His Church is growing.
2.) But yes, Christ's Church is losing folks; people are "going out from us, proving they are not of us," even as John said 2000 years ago.

So, I would call it a "shakedown" of sorts... if you understand what I mean. I do think the ratio of born again Christians to those who just profess belief in Christ is... There's a pretty big gap there. How big we cannot know, but I think it's pretty big. But steadily getting narrower, and much narrower than just shortly ago. Yeah, a shakedown. People are showing their true colors, which they themselves might not even have been aware of until recently.

And I would say the same thing ~ in a lesser sense, certainly, but in concept the same ~ with people coming to understand the Scriptures in the ways Augustine, Calvin, Jonathan Edwards, Cornelius Van Til and many others even up to the present day did and do. But of course this is surely not to say that those that follow in the footsteps of Pelagius, Arminius, and others even up to the present day were or are "lesser Christians," or "not as saved," or anything so ridiculous.

You know, this is neither here nor there, really, but your moniker... GodsGrace... There's just something really, really ironic about that... I mean, I don't mean to offend, for sure. But still... Ah. Well... Sorry.

Grace and peace to you.
Yes.
You love to repeat.
Guess you have nothing else to add.

There's enough meat on your plate.
Take care of that for now.
 

GodsGrace

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Why are you trying to defend the error which I already corrected. The other member falsely claimed that Christ gave a commandment, which He never ever gave at all.

The other member accepted the correction and moved on, yet you are persisting in the error and still trying to defend false doctrine.

You need to learn what the word "if" means. "If" cannot be translated to mean "you must", That's what the other member was trying to push until I exposed them.

"If you abide in Me" is not saying "you must abide in Me", it's very simple to understand. I don't know why you're struggling with it.
My dear sir....
IF is conditional.

It means that IF you don't do something....
something will surely happen.

AND
If I may, when JESUS speaks,,,it's a COMMAND.
Jesus does NOT make suggestons.

When Jesus says IF YOU ABIDE IN ME.....
Your ears better perk up, because it means:
IF YOIU DON'T this will happen.

Let's take a look at what JESUS stated:

John 15:6
6If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.


What happens IF ANYONE DOES NOT ABIDE IN JESUS?

He is thrown away as a branch and dries up and is burned.

IF is warning you that something serious is going to be said....
And I have to say that EVERYTHING Jesus says is serious.
 

GodsGrace

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That is not how Jesus explains to Nicodemus how we are Born Of The Spirit...you left that part out.

We are not Born Again by looking to the cross and believing....believing what?

You can’t believe anything without God’s witness testifying Gods truth to our heart/ spirit.

Therefore you looking to the cross and begging God for forgiveness is not how our spirit is Born Again.

Our spirit is Born Again by the Spirit Of God...not by looking to the cross and believing..you can’t believe anything without the gift of Faith and being Born Of The Spirit.

Your post isn’t biblical on how we become Born Again of imperishable/ incorruptible seed.



None of what you post here relates to being Born Of The Spirit.

You can’t look to the cross and believe it’s truth, unless one is Born Again of imperishable seed...who happens to be God’s Living Witness His Living Holy Spirit...now you run away from that divine revelation.
@Eternally Grateful

Yes.
She's not a calvinist.
LOL
 
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GodsGrace

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I don't agree with anything you said, it's all based on the false Arminian works based gospel.

God said we are saved by grace, but you say we are saved by works. One of you is lying and I think I know who it is.

Why do you, just push works as your only way to inherit the Kingdom of God. Why do you ignore, the other 99% of the Bible. Your works are dead without faith.

Your faith is dead without works.
Why don't you believe ALL of the bible?

James 2:26
26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.


Regarding the other member, who tried to use those verses to push false doctrine. You should go back to see, how he kept misapplying them in previous posts, then you will understand why he didn't add any comment to his reply. I can dump a truck load of verses a his feet and leave him with them, but that would be pointless unless I explained what they mean.

Sir....if someone doesn't even explain what a verse means....
I'd say that it's SO SIMPLE to understand that it requires NO EXPLANATION.

I've been reading @JLB 's posts and, if I were you, I'd pay more attention to them.
What HE states is biblical...
What YOU state comes straight from the teachings of a man-made religion.

If you give the Bible to 50 people, and ask them to explain what all the verses are saying. You will get 50 different interpretations. We don't have any right to add or take away from anything God said, whoever does this is cursed and God wrath abides on them.

Oh. This is wonderful.
A great testimony to the Christian faith.

If a verse is plainly posted HOW is anything being added to it or taken away from it?

And it's not up TO YOU to know who is cursed and who is not.

Your opinion doesn't matter at all, the only thing that matters is the truth.

Why doesn't my opinion count?
Am I not one of those above who reads the NT and comes away with one of those 50 beliefs????
And IF, there goes that IF word again,
we each can have our own opinion.....
HOW COULD THERE BE ANY TRUTH???

Do you read back what you write?
You should.

If we can all have an opinion ....
THERE IS NO TRUTH.

Which is why posting scripture is important.
Something most on here don't do.

Let every man be a liar and let God be true. if you want to know the truth, then embrace the whole counsel of God and stop cherry picking only the bits you like and trashing the parts you don't like. The other member was doing that, and I exposed him for it
Sir, you exposed nothing but your own incorrect ideas about the bible.
And, yes, you should embrace the whole counsel of God and not that of a man who invented a religion.
 

GodsGrace

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Please prove using scripture that I’m a Calvinist...that card playing does not affect me one bit.

Still no testimony from you....still I wait for you to prove my posts wrong on how the word of God says we are Born Again?
As soon as you post some verses that explain HOW a person is born again...
I WILL reply.

Till then, I have nothing to reply to.
 
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Ritajanice

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This shows that due to man having been given free will... salvation is conditional.
There is no freewill in becoming Born Of The Spirit....no where in scripture does it say that a Born Again freely chooses to become Born Again...that’s an absolute impossibility..

We are Born Of The Spirit ,which is by the will of God.

How do you know that Jesus died and was resurrected?

How do you know the Lord?

Just by reading the written word..much more to it than that...we must be Born Again of imperishable seed to to even start to be able to understand the written word?

Who is your guide/ helper?...who brings you to understanding the penned word?....yourself?
 

Ritajanice

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As soon as you post some verses that explain HOW a person is born again...
I WILL reply.

Till then, I have nothing to reply to.
I already have, all members can see the scriptures that I posted on how God says we become Born Of The Spirit...for some reason you have dismissed them...and still won’t post how you became Born Of God’s seed?

What are you afraid of it seems?

Doesn’t the word say we are Born Again by divine revelation?

I’ve posted enough scripture on it.

Spirit gives birth to spirit..isn’t that by divine revelation @GodsGrace ?

You just continually deflect for some reason...and dismiss the scripture I posted..never wanting to discuss it...shame.
 

Ritajanice

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lol.

She just throws out so much of the passage.. it just means nothing
Your posting of how one becomes Born Again is not biblical..I have thrown nothing out of context, you did that yourself....by leaving out how Jesus explains to Nicodemus how we become Born Of The Spirit.
then again, She said the Bible is not important so….
Show me where I said the Bible is not important?

You can’t..because I never said it....once again bearing false witness and stirring the pot.

I said no such thing...I said the Bible backs up what is witnessed/ testified to our spirit by Gods Witness His Living Holy Spirit...

You can’t understand the Bible without being Born Again/ Born Again of imperishable/ incorruptible seed/ Born Of God’s seed.

The cross can only be understood when we have received that vital ingredient...by being Born Of The Spirit.

Only Gods Living witness His Living Holy Spirit...can Witness the truth of the cross to our heart/ spirit..when we become Born Again by “ His will” ...by divine revelation.....a Living spirit birth....spirit children of the most high....you can’t read divine revelation into being I’m afraid...

That can only come via Gods Living Witness His Living Holy Spirit.....
 
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